Armageddon General Discussion Board

Go play over here instead, please.  You too, Nyr.   :P

Quote from: TheBadSeed on December 13, 2012, 05:50:46 PM

Quote from: Nyr on December 13, 2012, 04:17:16 AM

I understood that the majority of your point was that men can't have babies, so I said that.  I must have misunderstood this line which seemed to go beyond (and a bit contrary to) what you said prior.

QuoteGender equality stops at capability. There is no need to assume that someone can't or won't be called a gender related insult. There is also no reason to believe that someone won't believe that there is a better place for one gender or another as far as tasks.

It must've gone over my head because I misunderstood it entirely. 

Alright, fair enough. If you view the sentence completely independently of the rest of the post, I can see how that would happen.

My point about "equality" isn't a mathematical one. I didn't mean for lack of equality to mean one greater or less. By lack of equality, I meant lack of being completely the same in capabilities.
"Gender equality stops at capability."

• Males are incapable of bearing children, that makes them different them different
• Females are incapable of impregnating someone, that makes them different
• Most females cannot grow beards, that makes them different

"There is no need to assume that someone won't be called a gender related insult"

• People all have different backgrounds regarding their personal discrimination toward everyone. If someone grew up with a domineering parent figure of one kind or the other or has had poor experiences with on gender or another, there is no reason to assume they might have some predisposed attitude, and predisposed ideas of said gender.
• This doesn't mean simple canned sexism like "Men are strong, women are weak", "Girls are smart, men are stupid", this would be bad.
• This might mean "All men are uncaring whore mongers, or all women are bitches" This would be a perfectly IC.
  

"There is no reason to believe that someone won't believe that there is a better place for one gender or another as far as tasks."

• In several of the tribes, there are definite gender roles. I've know at least one tribe where I've heard IC (I have not read the official clan docs as I've never been part of that tribe) that the women are held on high because only from their wombs do new tribe members spring. The males of that tribe might mate elsewhere, but their offspring will never be considered part of the tribe.
• Jobs like nannying would be much easier for females, especially if the job required them to wetnurse as well. Poorer folks that could not hire would likely leave most of the early child rearing to the one who could provide.
• You need someone to spy on Lady Fancy-Silks, who is jealous of all other women, and wants to bed every man she sees. A male would probably be required to get close.

Anyway, I'm done derailing.

I figure that most prejudices (race, sex, species, magickers) are learned from society rather than taught in the home, because a lot of the time people will have a tendency to alter their beliefs when they are continually rebuked by most of their close friends and family. People who do not do this do not function well in society.

Sexism by definition is just discrimination based on sex. Now, in Zalanthas, men and women may be veiwed as equal in terms of capabilities but as previously pointed out, the are not equal in terms of all physical roles. While it may be inappropriate to view females as a weaker sex, that doesn't mean a PC might have stereotypes towards a gender for other reasons. For example, because women bear children, a pregnant PC may be delayed or overlooked for a promotion because they are seen as being less capable now due to the role of motherhood impeding on their ability to work. This is not something a male pc would experience. Call it what you want, females are physically different than males though not necessarily in terms of physical prowess, but are still subject to be discriminated upon based on gender based roles.

I think it's appropriate that PC's develop all sorts of prejudices and stigma based on all sorts of things. It is, however, extremely suspicious to me when those social stigmas are exactly the same as we have IRL despite a world with drastically different characteristics. At the very least, it's unimaginative. Often it's outright ignoring documentation about differences between Zalanthas and Earth.

Maybe if one would want to roleplay a discrimanatory or prejudice character one should come up with some of their own prejudices? Play a female that's prejudice against men for being too weak to bare offspring. Play a man that thinks females are vulgar and uncouth for spurting blood out their groins a couple times a month. These are both things that should be just as, if not more likely to develop in Zalanthas as real world prejudices, and they have the meta-game benefit of not making everyone one rps with question whether they read the documentation.

I want to emphasize that I agree, sometimes prejudices mimicking Real World ones might develop naturaly in this sort of setting (albeit infrequently), but for OOC reasons you probably shouldn't have your character develop them because there's no way another PC can tell whether you're a special and unique flower with a wonderfully detailed background showing how you developed your preferences, or some newb that just started after reading the combat help files and figured they'd 'wing' the culture.

I should roll a bald girl sometime.

Or one with a beard.

I somehow have the feeling that all the gentle, cute girls here on the GDB either play rowdy men or bitches. I don't know why.

 ::)

Other similar topics:

• Sexism (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,19685.0.html)
• Hate! (again) (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,43467.0.html)
• Hot Button Issue: Sexism (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,32165.0.html)
• How Best To Address Sexism IC and Out (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,15702.0.html)
• Zalanthan Sexism Confessional! (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,17846.0.html)
• So that other thread doesn't get locked, Male and Female Equality (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,43785.0.html)
• Gender Equality (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,40072.0.html)
• The Non-Sexist Society (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,28261.0.html)

---

One of the things that's come up in discussions I've had on the topic of sexism in Zalanthas is the words used to describe things. We don't have alternate, non-gender specific words for masculine and feminine in the game. The concepts we have revolving around the roles of men and women in the real world are tied up in those worlds a lot; and so a lack of vocabulary to otherwise describe the traits which fit into one group or another is part of the problem.

In terms of actually thinking that all women are one way, and all men are one way, I don't know that a Zalanthian would notice gender first and foremost. Race and location are what is probably first considered, and perhaps occupation after that. Asides from things revolving around pregnancy, most other differences could be as likely to be attributed to something like eye color. The issue with that is that after a PC ICly sees a certain number of people acting the same way when the only apparent common denominator is gender, they're probably going to start making assumptions. Still, I don't know if it would ever be ingrained enough for them to make comments about it. It depends on the situation, really--and remember that you can counter balance what your PC encounters with other PCs in terms of vNPCs. For each muscular man and tressy-tressed woman you meet, there are other virtual people that are tressy-tressed men and muscular females.

Quote from: greasygemo on December 13, 2012, 08:12:23 PM

Quote from: Iiyola on December 13, 2012, 07:59:43 PM
I somehow have the feeling that all the gentle, cute girls here on the GDB either play rowdy men or bitches. I don't know why.

Armageddon: Giving a voice to your secret inner man-bitch since 1999.

Ok. Now I HAVE TO make my next PC a cross dresser. Bearded and more comfortable in lace than leather.

It was not until I approached middle age that I really began to see the sex-stereotypes around me.

Or, maybe man-bashing just became much more trendy around 2005.

Dunno.

ANYWAY,

One of the cool things about Arm is that there can be fifty different ways of approaching a non-sexist society. Read the docs, do your best to play within them, send questions to staff, and write player complaints as necessary.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on December 13, 2012, 06:02:45 PM

• Males are incapable of bearing children, that makes them different them different

Zalanthan males develop a Darwinistic mutation whereby they are able to become pregnant and carry babies to term.

Bam. Issue solved.

Edit: It's even justifiable in the docs! http://www.armageddon.org/general/mutant.html

Quote from: greasygemo on December 13, 2012, 08:18:11 PM
Ok. Now I HAVE TO make my next PC a cross dresser. Bearded and more comfortable in lace than leather.

:P

Someone in Salarr should mastercraft a pregnant belly style of cuirass.  With fucking spikes and shit.

Then we can have a pregnant Byn Sarge charge into battle against gith, pop out a baby mid-fight, throw it in her backpack, and carry on.  When they get back, the placenta goes into the Byn stew and the baby gets a tour of the compound, an aba, and sparring weapons.

I hate making endorsement posts because they're inane. But I just...just so, fucking endorse Synthesis' post. It's awesome.

Quote from: Synthesis on December 16, 2012, 12:34:38 AM
Someone in Salarr should mastercraft a pregnant belly style of cuirass.  With fucking spikes and shit.

Then we can have a pregnant Byn Sarge charge into battle against gith, pop out a baby mid-fight, throw it in her backpack, and carry on.  When they get back, the placenta goes into the Byn stew and the baby gets a tour of the compound, an aba, and sparring weapons.

This happens in Dwarf Fort, so why not in Armageddon?   ;D

Quote from: valeria on December 16, 2012, 10:22:49 AM

Quote from: Synthesis on December 16, 2012, 12:34:38 AM
Someone in Salarr should mastercraft a pregnant belly style of cuirass.  With fucking spikes and shit.

Then we can have a pregnant Byn Sarge charge into battle against gith, pop out a baby mid-fight, throw it in her backpack, and carry on.  When they get back, the placenta goes into the Byn stew and the baby gets a tour of the compound, an aba, and sparring weapons.

This happens in Dwarf Fort, so why not in Armageddon?   ;D

Except you have the baby getting chopped in half in the melee, and then the mother goes berserk, killing all the other soldiers and then running back into the settlement, killing everyone.

I'm going to assess the state of this whole sexism thing by making all my prissy social characters male and all my badass beastslaying sergeants female. Then I shall proceed to have my sensitive men hit on all the hulking, battle-scarred women(all two of them!) they can find while my females shall scoff every time they are hit on and flirt with only the most unassuming guys of them all.

This quote from LoD has always summed up this particular rule for me pretty well.  You don't need to rationalize gender equality within the game world until you're blue in the face.  The staff of this game has decided it shouldn't be an issue here - that's it. 

Quote from: LoD on October 16, 2009, 02:10:50 PM
The point behind the gender-equal society is not that it's a well-supported IC phenomenon, but that, OOCly, women should have exactly the same opportunity to enjoy the game as men.  Female characters should be just as capable of playing a clan leader, cunning hunter, skilled mercenary, influential senator, shrewd merchant, and deadly assassin as any male character.  Sex should never come into the equation when considering a character for an appointment or role.  And as long as this is maintained, I can look past some of the subtle physical and mental breakdowns we occasionally demonstrate in our day-to-day interactions between our male and female characters.

-LoD

I definitely don't want to have to put up with being discriminated against within a fantasy game when I already have to put up with it in real life.

Quote from: LauraMars on December 16, 2012, 11:52:19 AM

I definitely don't want to have to put up with being discriminated against within a fantasy game when I already have to put up with it in real life.

I will admit it, I discriminate against Martians all the time.

In relation to the OP, I guess it's another topic that relates to Zalanthas not being Earth.
But to be honest I don't really think about sexism in game when there are more tangible(?) things to discriminate against people for.

it's bullshit there's no sexism

*bunch of gicker friends*

I don't have time to be sexist against other PCs when I'm too busy trying to figure out if they're a sekkrit breed, closet northron, rogue 'gicker or mindworm.

Just take it out on a breed. You'll feel better IG.

I once had a character with so many, such absurd and such extreme examples of "masculine" stereotypes that it passed into parody at times. It was, simply, badass made silly. It didn't really break documentation, since he'd discriminate equally amongst those he considered less badass than him (everyone) even if he did come across as a dangerously unhinged individual.

I'm trying to think of a way to link this to make it relevant to the thread, only I can't. ;_;

Quote from: LoD on October 16, 2009, 02:10:50 PM
The point behind the gender-equal society is not that it's a well-supported IC phenomenon, but that, OOCly, women should have exactly the same opportunity to enjoy the game as men.  Female characters should be just as capable of playing a clan leader, cunning hunter, skilled mercenary, influential senator, shrewd merchant, and deadly assassin as any male character.  Sex should never come into the equation when considering a character for an appointment or role.  And as long as this is maintained, I can look past some of the subtle physical and mental breakdowns we occasionally demonstrate in our day-to-day interactions between our male and female characters.

-LoD

LauraMars has mastered search-fu.

This topic has been beaten like a dead horse many a good and many a bad day for the past 7 years in the search function.

Quote from: greasygemo on December 13, 2012, 08:18:11 PM
Ok. Now I HAVE TO make my next PC a cross dresser. Bearded and more comfortable in lace than leather.

Kojiro Fale wore high heels. That was circa 2001.

I don't feel gender discriminated in RL, and wouldn't mind some of it IG, at least in some limited areas / clans of the Known. But I see and accept why the game doesn't work that way, and things are as they are.

LauraMars can't possibly have mastered search fu...cause she's a woman.

I just want to say that the title of this thread continues to delight me, for some reason.

I really like what LoD said:

QuoteThe point behind the gender-equal society is not that it's a well-supported IC phenomenon, but that, OOCly, women should have exactly the same opportunity to enjoy the game as men.  Female characters should be just as capable of playing a clan leader, cunning hunter, skilled mercenary, influential senator, shrewd merchant, and deadly assassin as any male character.  Sex should never come into the equation when considering a character for an appointment or role.  And as long as this is maintained, I can look past some of the subtle physical and mental breakdowns we occasionally demonstrate in our day-to-day interactions between our male and female characters.

Yes. That. To bring up entirely anecdotal evidence, I've had a number of women tell me that this aspect of the world drew them to Armageddon or else kept them there. Making the game welcoming to female players has definitely shaped the game and it's also helped build a really strong community, as these boards often evidence. (I've had very few, if any, male players tell me it drove them away.)

A lot of us have horror stories about other games. I've got my share as well. I've read iterations of this thread over and over through the years, and I still think it was a great move for the game.

Quote from: Maso on January 03, 2013, 01:54:13 PM
LauraMars can't possibly have mastered search fu...cause she's a woman.

(http://content.pyzam.com/funnypics/9/pyzamohsnap.jpg)

girls are icky and would just cry about zalanthas all the time

Sexism exists only because you see it as Sexism.

In Example: I played a leader pc, and I had a pregnant pc in the clan. I would not let the pregnant pc go out on anything considered dangerous. Not because she was weak, but because my leader respected life to much to risk an unborn child's life in combat. During that time the female was in charge of cleaning,cooking, and so on though. "Womens work" in RL, but in the game it was because " Everyone pulls there weight, even the pregnant"

Walking through some city's you will notice that it is mostly women npc's doing the sewing or cooking or cleaning. Why? my guess is while a child is still really young, someone has to keep an eye on them. And due to the child growing in the mothers body for 9 months, she feels a closer connection. (This is scientifically proven, btw) Sexism? I don't think so.

Quote from: Fredd on January 03, 2013, 07:48:58 PM
Sexism exists only because you see it as Sexism.

In Example: I played a leader pc, and I had a pregnant pc in the clan. I would not let the pregnant pc go out on anything considered dangerous. Not because she was weak, but because my leader respected life to much to risk an unborn child's life in combat. During that time the female was in charge of cleaning,cooking, and so on though. "Womens work" in RL, but in the game it was because " Everyone pulls there weight, even the pregnant"

Walking through some city's you will notice that it is mostly women npc's doing the sewing or cooking or cleaning. Why? my guess is while a child is still really young, someone has to keep an eye on them. And due to the child growing in the mothers body for 9 months, she feels a closer connection. (This is scientifically proven, btw) Sexism? I don't think so.

Then there's the practical point of breastfeeding - whether a wetnurse or mommy, the primary food source of an infant is going to be a female. Yes, I know men -can- lactate. But in general, they don't. And in general, they don't produce enough to provide complete nourishment for an infant of their own species.

Quote from: Lizzie on January 03, 2013, 07:57:52 PM

Quote from: Fredd on January 03, 2013, 07:48:58 PM
Sexism exists only because you see it as Sexism.

In Example: I played a leader pc, and I had a pregnant pc in the clan. I would not let the pregnant pc go out on anything considered dangerous. Not because she was weak, but because my leader respected life to much to risk an unborn child's life in combat. During that time the female was in charge of cleaning,cooking, and so on though. "Womens work" in RL, but in the game it was because " Everyone pulls there weight, even the pregnant"

Walking through some city's you will notice that it is mostly women npc's doing the sewing or cooking or cleaning. Why? my guess is while a child is still really young, someone has to keep an eye on them. And due to the child growing in the mothers body for 9 months, she feels a closer connection. (This is scientifically proven, btw) Sexism? I don't think so.

Then there's the practical point of breastfeeding - whether a wetnurse or mommy, the primary food source of an infant is going to be a female. Yes, I know men -can- lactate. But in general, they don't. And in general, they don't produce enough to provide complete nourishment for an infant of their own species.

I don't see an alternative to breastfeeding in zalanthas. There is no "powdred milk" Baby's need what's in the mothers milk to survive, not to mention to get there immune system (we have shots these days) and I am fairly certain 80% of zalanthians can't afford to pay a wet nurse.

Quote from: Fredd on January 03, 2013, 08:05:49 PM

Quote from: Lizzie on January 03, 2013, 07:57:52 PM

Quote from: Fredd on January 03, 2013, 07:48:58 PM
Sexism exists only because you see it as Sexism.

In Example: I played a leader pc, and I had a pregnant pc in the clan. I would not let the pregnant pc go out on anything considered dangerous. Not because she was weak, but because my leader respected life to much to risk an unborn child's life in combat. During that time the female was in charge of cleaning,cooking, and so on though. "Womens work" in RL, but in the game it was because " Everyone pulls there weight, even the pregnant"

Walking through some city's you will notice that it is mostly women npc's doing the sewing or cooking or cleaning. Why? my guess is while a child is still really young, someone has to keep an eye on them. And due to the child growing in the mothers body for 9 months, she feels a closer connection. (This is scientifically proven, btw) Sexism? I don't think so.

Then there's the practical point of breastfeeding - whether a wetnurse or mommy, the primary food source of an infant is going to be a female. Yes, I know men -can- lactate. But in general, they don't. And in general, they don't produce enough to provide complete nourishment for an infant of their own species.

I don't see an alternative to breastfeeding in zalanthas. There is no "powdred milk" Baby's need what's in the mothers milk to survive, not to mention to get there immune system (we have shots these days) and I am fairly certain 80% of zalanthians can't afford to pay a wet nurse.

There are alternatives to breasfeeding in Zalanthas. Find out IC.

Quote from: ShaLeah on January 03, 2013, 10:58:46 PM

Quote from: Fredd on January 03, 2013, 08:05:49 PM

Quote from: Lizzie on January 03, 2013, 07:57:52 PM

Quote from: Fredd on January 03, 2013, 07:48:58 PM
Sexism exists only because you see it as Sexism.

In Example: I played a leader pc, and I had a pregnant pc in the clan. I would not let the pregnant pc go out on anything considered dangerous. Not because she was weak, but because my leader respected life to much to risk an unborn child's life in combat. During that time the female was in charge of cleaning,cooking, and so on though. "Womens work" in RL, but in the game it was because " Everyone pulls there weight, even the pregnant"

Walking through some city's you will notice that it is mostly women npc's doing the sewing or cooking or cleaning. Why? my guess is while a child is still really young, someone has to keep an eye on them. And due to the child growing in the mothers body for 9 months, she feels a closer connection. (This is scientifically proven, btw) Sexism? I don't think so.

Then there's the practical point of breastfeeding - whether a wetnurse or mommy, the primary food source of an infant is going to be a female. Yes, I know men -can- lactate. But in general, they don't. And in general, they don't produce enough to provide complete nourishment for an infant of their own species.

I don't see an alternative to breastfeeding in zalanthas. There is no "powdred milk" Baby's need what's in the mothers milk to survive, not to mention to get there immune system (we have shots these days) and I am fairly certain 80% of zalanthians can't afford to pay a wet nurse.

There are alternatives to breasfeeding in Zalanthas. Find out IC.

I feel like perhaps I do not want too know xD

Fredd:

First off, welcome back!

Second:

Quote from: Fredd on January 03, 2013, 07:48:58 PM
Sexism exists only because you see it as Sexism.

Ah, if only it were so.  I have been playing a female warrior before, and been told IC that she "Acted like a man".  On two separate occasions.  The comment didn't come from a newbie, but an otherwise very well-played character (the warrior-woman was crude, ignorant, and did such shocking things as spit on the floor and engage in off-color humor).  I decided to handle it IC, and hopefully got my point across in both instances (and yes, further dialog made it clear that the aforementioned characteristics were, indeed, the "problem").

Sexism, like all the other nasty RL "-isms", can be very difficulty to check at the door, and exchanged instead for mage-hating and elf-baiting.  Where the staff excels, though, is in having created a backdrop where that's the expectation.  And mostly, the player-base does a hell of a job maintaining it. 

     

Quote from: Sanvean on January 03, 2013, 03:06:03 PM
I just want to say that the title of this thread continues to delight me, for some reason.

I really like what LoD said:

QuoteThe point behind the gender-equal society is not that it's a well-supported IC phenomenon, but that, OOCly, women should have exactly the same opportunity to enjoy the game as men.  Female characters should be just as capable of playing a clan leader, cunning hunter, skilled mercenary, influential senator, shrewd merchant, and deadly assassin as any male character.  Sex should never come into the equation when considering a character for an appointment or role.  And as long as this is maintained, I can look past some of the subtle physical and mental breakdowns we occasionally demonstrate in our day-to-day interactions between our male and female characters.

Yes. That. To bring up entirely anecdotal evidence, I've had a number of women tell me that this aspect of the world drew them to Armageddon or else kept them there. Making the game welcoming to female players has definitely shaped the game and it's also helped build a really strong community, as these boards often evidence. (I've had very few, if any, male players tell me it drove them away.)

A lot of us have horror stories about other games. I've got my share as well. I've read iterations of this thread over and over through the years, and I still think it was a great move for the game.

This is how I see the "issue" of "sexism" as well, and I'm glad that Sanvean has posted to express it.

As I've said before - men and women -are- different. Treated equally in Zalanthas, but -not- the same. Equal is not synonymous with same.

However - as long as people continue playing female characters who use their "sexual wiles" to get ahead, male characters who use the "hero card" as their method of getting ahead, there will be a decisive seperation of masculinity and femininity in the game. I don't see a problem with that, as long as people recognize that this is what it is. Players WANT females to be portrayed as "flirtatious and feminine," and they WANT males to be portrayed as "rogueish and masculine." If they didn't want this, they wouldn't continue to do it.

Edited to add a classic example: the ubiquitous leg-crossing at the bar. Decisively feminine, and not surprisingly - performed almost exclusively by female characters, OR "effeminate" male characters. You will rarely, if ever, see this:

>The burly barrel-chested man gracefully drapes one leg over the other, exposing a well-curved thigh.

Just like you will rarely see this:

>The zaftig, curvaceous young woman cops a squat outside the tavern and pisses on the side of the road.

I accept this, though I don't particularly care for the stereotype. But it does exist, and because it does exist, we need to deal with it IG. It isn't against the rules for a female PC to behave "feminine and flirty." So why should it be against the rules for us to acknowledge, ICly, those behaviors as what they are? That makes no sense to me. What should we call those behaviors, if not what they are, considering that they are being portrayed that way intentionally by their players?

While I agree in general, Lizzie, both of your examples have anatomical components that make them less feasible.   ;)

It's perhaps unavoidable that female characters will, on average, behave in a more feminine manner than male characters, on average. But you can still acknowledge that behavior without having a character describe it in gender-based terms. There are plenty of other words.

Quote from: Bluefae on January 04, 2013, 10:07:50 AM
Fredd:

First off, welcome back!

Second:

Quote from: Fredd on January 03, 2013, 07:48:58 PM
Sexism exists only because you see it as Sexism.

Ah, if only it were so.  I have been playing a female warrior before, and been told IC that she "Acted like a man".  On two separate occasions.  The comment didn't come from a newbie, but an otherwise very well-played character (the warrior-woman was crude, ignorant, and did such shocking things as spit on the floor and engage in off-color humor).  I decided to handle it IC, and hopefully got my point across in both instances (and yes, further dialog made it clear that the aforementioned characteristics were, indeed, the "problem").

Sexism, like all the other nasty RL "-isms", can be very difficulty to check at the door, and exchanged instead for mage-hating and elf-baiting.  Where the staff excels, though, is in having created a backdrop where that's the expectation.  And mostly, the player-base does a hell of a job maintaining it. 

     

Please send in player complaints about these instances in the future.

Quote from: flurry on January 04, 2013, 10:52:47 AM
It's perhaps unavoidable that female characters will, on average, behave in a more feminine manner than male characters, on average. But you can still acknowledge that behavior without having a character describe it in gender-based terms. There are plenty of other words.

Why should anyone have to? Masculine and feminine are perfectly good words.

I tend to experience sexism against my PC when I'm playing males more often than females.

I have alway liked the equal but different the same things make or brains genetically male and female (not our bodies because their is a difference) effect our hormones which in turn effect our behavior. It is not some learned thing. One of my Dads grad students is doing a really interesting study atm on the effects of hormones on developing brains and how that in turn effects behavior. It a neat read so far. Mainly because it is not specific to humans or even mammals.
      Masculine and Feminine behavior is not something human culture made it up it is a product of the chemical soup created by our brains. Our culture has developed different ways to display that behavior but I do not feel I am falling into a stero-type because i chose to have my PC cross her legs when she sits at a bar. There is a difference in sexism and acting feminine or masculine. I should be able to play a girlie girl who can still kick your butt in the sparing ring then flounce off for tea and crumpets if I want to and not be judged for it. Thats sexist too  :P

For added clarification my father is a scientist with SCDNR he runs the Genomics dept and has double PHD in (what is now called) Genomics and Marine Bio. He also seats a chair at S.C. medical university MUSC. Leads to some really interesting people at his Christmas parties, however I digress.

Quote from: Bast on January 04, 2013, 12:37:18 PM
I have alway liked the equal but different the same things make or brains genetically male and female (not our bodies because their is a difference) effect our hormones which in turn effect our behavior. It is not some learned thing. One of my Dads grad students is doing a really interesting study atm on the effects of hormones on developing brains and how that in turn effects behavior. It a neat read so far. Mainly because it is not specific to humans or even mammals.
      Masculine and Feminine behavior is not something human culture made it up it is a product of the chemical soup created by our brains. Our culture has developed different ways to display that behavior but I do not feel I am falling into a stero-type because i chose to have my PC cross her legs when she sits at a bar. There is a difference in sexism and acting feminine or masculine. I should be able to play a girlie girl who can still kick your butt in the sparing ring then flounce off for tea and crumpets if I want to and not be judged for it. Thats sexist too  :P

For added clarification my father is a scientist with SCDNR he runs the Genomics dept and has double PHD in (what is now called) Genomics and Marine Bio. He also seats a chair at S.C. medical university MUSC. Leads to some really interesting people at his Christmas parties, however I digress.

I agree, but my thought is, I should be able to CALL your character a girlie-girl, if that's how you are trying to portray her. I should be able to say "isn't she precious.." right before she backstabs me - without getting a player complaint turned my way for inflicting "sexism" on you. What some people are claiming, is that we shouldn't be -allowed- to say "this person is acting like a common woman" or "that person is acting like a typical male." A person who grabs their crotch as a lewd gesture IS demonstrating a male behavior. There's no reason why we should have to call it anything else. It'd be great if we came up with other things to call it, but I resent being told I'm not allowed to call a spade a spade.

Quote from: Lizzie on January 04, 2013, 12:45:26 PM

Quote from: Bast on January 04, 2013, 12:37:18 PM
I have alway liked the equal but different the same things make or brains genetically male and female (not our bodies because their is a difference) effect our hormones which in turn effect our behavior. It is not some learned thing. One of my Dads grad students is doing a really interesting study atm on the effects of hormones on developing brains and how that in turn effects behavior. It a neat read so far. Mainly because it is not specific to humans or even mammals.
      Masculine and Feminine behavior is not something human culture made it up it is a product of the chemical soup created by our brains. Our culture has developed different ways to display that behavior but I do not feel I am falling into a stero-type because i chose to have my PC cross her legs when she sits at a bar. There is a difference in sexism and acting feminine or masculine. I should be able to play a girlie girl who can still kick your butt in the sparing ring then flounce off for tea and crumpets if I want to and not be judged for it. Thats sexist too  :P

For added clarification my father is a scientist with SCDNR he runs the Genomics dept and has double PHD in (what is now called) Genomics and Marine Bio. He also seats a chair at S.C. medical university MUSC. Leads to some really interesting people at his Christmas parties, however I digress.

I agree, but my thought is, I should be able to CALL your character a girlie-girl, if that's how you are trying to portray her. I should be able to say "isn't she precious.." right before she backstabs me - without getting a player complaint turned my way for inflicting "sexism" on you. What some people are claiming, is that we shouldn't be -allowed- to say "this person is acting like a common woman" or "that person is acting like a typical male." A person who grabs their crotch as a lewd gesture IS demonstrating a male behavior. There's no reason why we should have to call it anything else. It'd be great if we came up with other things to call it, but I resent being told I'm not allowed to call a spade a spade.

Oh well thats just silly. I can see in some cases where that would be a no no...however if that was the case shouldn't I file a player compliant every time someone calls me a bitch (which bugs anyway because I do not feel bitch is word that would be used in arm with lack of female dogs and the fact that I never seen a single female animal referred to in the game as a bitch) or a Cunt? I have had female chars called a Cunt quiet a few times.  I normally just make a mental note that I am better rper than they are because I think up more Arm fitting insults and go on my merry way  ;D

I think cunt is a great word to use.

But you'll never find me using: shaft, thrust, ecstasy, baby, pregnant belly, or sing. I just make a mental note of those who do and think to myself how much of a better RPer I am, then go about doing more Zalanthan things like choppin up mothafuckas with bone swordz.

Quote from: Lizzie on January 04, 2013, 12:27:37 PM

Quote from: flurry on January 04, 2013, 10:52:47 AM
It's perhaps unavoidable that female characters will, on average, behave in a more feminine manner than male characters, on average. But you can still acknowledge that behavior without having a character describe it in gender-based terms. There are plenty of other words.

Why should anyone have to? Masculine and feminine are perfectly good words.

They are indeed perfectly good words, apt in certain contexts, but ill-suited for describing Zalanthan behavior (in my opinion).

(By the way, I'm not saying you shouldn't be allowed to use those words. Just giving my interpretation of what I think makes sense.)

Quote from: Is Friday on January 04, 2013, 01:17:14 PM
I think cunt is a great word to use.

But you'll never find me using: shaft, thrust, ecstasy, baby, pregnant belly, or sing. I just make a mental note of those who do and think to myself how much of a better RPer I am, then go about doing more Zalanthan things like choppin up mothafuckas with bone swordz.

I use four out of five of those words whenever I play a character who can craft arrows.
How are arrows not Zalanthan?

Go read a book, Rookjob.

Quote from: Bast on January 04, 2013, 12:37:18 PM
I have alway liked the equal but different the same things make or brains genetically male and female (not our bodies because their is a difference) effect our hormones which in turn effect our behavior. It is not some learned thing. One of my Dads grad students is doing a really interesting study atm on the effects of hormones on developing brains and how that in turn effects behavior. It a neat read so far. Mainly because it is not specific to humans or even mammals.
       Masculine and Feminine behavior is not something human culture made it up it is a product of the chemical soup created by our brains. Our culture has developed different ways to display that behavior but I do not feel I am falling into a stero-type because i chose to have my PC cross her legs when she sits at a bar. There is a difference in sexism and acting feminine or masculine. I should be able to play a girlie girl who can still kick your butt in the sparing ring then flounce off for tea and crumpets if I want to and not be judged for it. Thats sexist too  :P

For added clarification my father is a scientist with SCDNR he runs the Genomics dept and has double PHD in (what is now called) Genomics and Marine Bio. He also seats a chair at S.C. medical university MUSC. Leads to some really interesting people at his Christmas parties, however I digress.

Sounds like a good study with a potentially devastatingly fallacious conclusion. Biology and culture exist in a feedback loop, with each affecting the other. I've seen research on the impact of testosterone on behavior and testosterone actually has a different effect on a person's behavior dependent on their position within a social hierchy. I haven't seen as much research on things moving in the other direction, but I am aware that they do. Environmental effects can adjust how your hormones work, and culture is an environmental effect. It is in fact an environmental effect that we've been hardwired by millions of years of evolution to respond very acutely to in fact.

Culture (along with other environmental effects) can cancel or augment some of the effects of hormones, or it can change how those hormones impact behavior, or it can change the actual quantity of hormone produced.

Of course that goes both ways, with hormones having an impact on our culture as well, but to my knowledge this hasn't been studied as well.

Quote from: Is Friday on January 04, 2013, 12:35:51 PM
I tend to experience sexism against my PC when I'm playing males more often than females.

    I haven't played enough male characters to say there's more RL-ish sexism in that direction, but it does absolutely exist, and it wouldn't surprise me if it was, in fact, greater (the old "better a strong woman than a weak man" thing).  I'm practically lusting after playing a long-lived, "feminine" male character.  I just haven't been able to keep any of them alive long enough.   :'(

    Heck, as long as there's room for both types in the world (viragos and feminine guys) I'm happy.   :)

     Edited to add:  Thanks for beating me to point out the ancient "Nurture/Nature" angle, Narf.

If Zalanthan women are physically equally strong as men are, I think it's safe for them to also not be affected differently by hormones.

Quote from: Bluefae on January 04, 2013, 04:12:50 PM

Quote from: Is Friday on January 04, 2013, 12:35:51 PM
I tend to experience sexism against my PC when I'm playing males more often than females.

    I haven't played enough male characters to say there's more RL-ish sexism in that direction, but it does absolutely exist, and it wouldn't surprise me if it was, in fact, greater (the old "better a strong woman than a weak man" thing).  I'm practically lusting after playing a long-lived, "feminine" male character.  I just haven't been able to keep any of them alive long enough.   :'(

I saw a really well played male prostitute that fit that bill pretty well I think a year or two back or so. Entirely outsider observer unverified guestimation here, but it kinda looked like he was ignored more than similiarly played female characters. I hope he got to be brutally murdered, instead of storing out of boredom. That would make me sad.

     That's really neat that those kinds of characters are about, Narf.  "Be the change you want to see" and all that.  I'm tryin'!  =)

Quote from: Is Friday on January 04, 2013, 12:35:51 PM
I tend to experience sexism against my PC when I'm playing males more often than females.

ha ha ha you dont play males though

Sometimes I play females who I want to exaggerate the gentler sides of the gender. Maleness and gentleness doesn't work as well.

Same with males and being tougher. We just more easily accept it. It doesn't mean I'm being sexist, it's just me knowing that if I want to make a first impression to people, it'll be easier with certain culturally pre-defined acceptances.

It's telling that discussion of sexism and a world without it focuses on portrayal of women and the behaviours women express as per stereotypical femininity.

Quote from: Case on January 04, 2013, 08:31:39 PM
It's telling that discussion of sexism and a world without it focuses on portrayal of women and the behaviours women express as per stereotypical femininity.

Welcome to reality. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MenAreGenericWomenAreSpecial)

I wish there was a Highlady.  ??? all the big powers that be in Arm have penises what gives. The sun kings daughter should knife him in the back or something.

Quote from: Narf on January 04, 2013, 03:55:00 PM

Quote from: Bast on January 04, 2013, 12:37:18 PM
I have alway liked the equal but different the same things make or brains genetically male and female (not our bodies because their is a difference) effect our hormones which in turn effect our behavior. It is not some learned thing. One of my Dads grad students is doing a really interesting study atm on the effects of hormones on developing brains and how that in turn effects behavior. It a neat read so far. Mainly because it is not specific to humans or even mammals.
       Masculine and Feminine behavior is not something human culture made it up it is a product of the chemical soup created by our brains. Our culture has developed different ways to display that behavior but I do not feel I am falling into a stero-type because i chose to have my PC cross her legs when she sits at a bar. There is a difference in sexism and acting feminine or masculine. I should be able to play a girlie girl who can still kick your butt in the sparing ring then flounce off for tea and crumpets if I want to and not be judged for it. Thats sexist too  :P

For added clarification my father is a scientist with SCDNR he runs the Genomics dept and has double PHD in (what is now called) Genomics and Marine Bio. He also seats a chair at S.C. medical university MUSC. Leads to some really interesting people at his Christmas parties, however I digress.

Sounds like a good study with a potentially devastatingly fallacious conclusion. Biology and culture exist in a feedback loop, with each affecting the other. I've seen research on the impact of testosterone on behavior and testosterone actually has a different effect on a person's behavior dependent on their position within a social hierchy. I haven't seen as much research on things moving in the other direction, but I am aware that they do. Environmental effects can adjust how your hormones work, and culture is an environmental effect. It is in fact an environmental effect that we've been hardwired by millions of years of evolution to respond very acutely to in fact.

Culture (along with other environmental effects) can cancel or augment some of the effects of hormones, or it can change how those hormones impact behavior, or it can change the actual quantity of hormone produced.

Of course that goes both ways, with hormones having an impact on our culture as well, but to my knowledge this hasn't been studied as well.

The study is not about humans.  :-* so culture is not a factor environmental effects caused by humans however is.

Man, I honestly never think about sexism in the game. Or use gender themed words for that matter. Calling an fme useless seems to work just as well be they male or female.

Quote from: Patuk on January 04, 2013, 08:36:23 PM

Quote from: Case on January 04, 2013, 08:31:39 PM
It's telling that discussion of sexism and a world without it focuses on portrayal of women and the behaviours women express as per stereotypical femininity.

Welcome to reality. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MenAreGenericWomenAreSpecial)

     And for every trope, a counter-trope; behold:  http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MenAreBetterThanWomen (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MenAreBetterThanWomen)

     As to the focus of this particular discussion, yes, it started focused on the portrayal of female characters.  I'd be more than happy to have a thread about how men are portrayed in the game as well.

QuoteI'd be more than happy to have a thread about how men are portrayed in the game as well.

This seems like a fine angle to me. Or even why these discussions do seem to always revolve around limiting play as a female, not as a male. I hadn't noticed that pattern before, and it unfolds all sorts of interesting thoughts and conjectures. But I need to go teach instead of maundering on the GDB. :p

Have you ever noticed that while there is an outstanding amount of bi-sexual female characters played there seems to be very few male pcs interested in open/bi-sexual relationships with other men? Or even if they say they are, they next to never pursue relations with other males? I am not saying it does not happen, but in my personal experience it is something I have seen very, very rarely in comparison. I think that's directly related to it being more social acceptable for woman to be bi-sexual and less so for men in our IRL western culture. I would love to see more big burly male Byners playing grab ass with each other in Gaj. In fact I think my next Char is gonna be male.
          I am very open with my sexuality and gender tends not to factor in when I am 'on the prowel' IRL but I tend to avoid this pretty often on Arm because it always tends to lead to someone looking to indulge their personal fantasies about having multiple ladies in the bed and generally acting like ho's  :-* . Also, the whole, just because I am open minded about my sex life, having multiple partners, and choice in partners does not mean I am still not picky or that I do not have standards, or that I want to sleep with you. :P Open mind, and experimental does not equal "Hi I am a Slut. I will go to bed with anyone that shakes my hand".
         I also thinks its bad that your judged poorly (by some) if you want to play an attractive PC once in while or that your obviously fishing for mud sex if your Female PC happens to have a medium or large breast size. I am naturally a D cup IRL that does not mean I want to sleep with everyone that give me a wink. I have on multiple occasions seen -modestly- dressed PC's have people ask them if they are whores based, as far as I could tell, solely on the fact that they had an attractive Main Desc. Lets ignore the fact the actual whores in a society like on the mud would be covered in festering sores... seriously look up some old pics of what real whores from back in the day looked like. They were not glamours attractive woman. Lately I have seemed to notice a trend with a large amount of female PC's having ant-bites for boobs and I honestly think its part of the whole oh well I don't want to seem anti-feminist and display woman in an unrealistic way. Just an Fyi while I am ranting the average breast size (without implants) is between 34B and 32C.

Sorry to rant about that but the last couple Character descriptions I have written up I have felt guilty and really wrestled over weather or not to even mention bust and actually worried I would be looked down on for having a character with a bust size similar to my own. Which made me in turn wonder why I should I feel guilty about  being well endowed up top.

Don't you ever feel bad about having boobs. Ever!

In my experience, how attracted to PC's other PC's are, seems to relate far more to their style of emotes/how much they flirt rather than their mdesc.

Sometimes, when I see rather unattractive but otherwise well played PC's getting hit on, I can't help but wonder if anyone really reads the descriptions anyway  :P

In more impoverished/desert areas, average breast size is an A cup. Ladies need lots of protein (and genes) to develop them luscious boobs. If they're especially active (warrior women) naturally large breasts will be even more uncommon. It's not a bad thing to have big boobs, but maybe the PCs are just trying to display the world realistically, not just going 'oh geez I don't want to seem like I'm trying to be *gasp* pretty.' And yes, I've played the whole spectrum of boob sizes. ;)

Quote from: musashi on January 05, 2013, 03:28:03 PM
Sometimes, when I see rather unattractive but otherwise well played PC's getting hit on, I can't help but wonder if anyone really reads the descriptions anyway  :P

One of my chars was horrifically scarred, ug-leee. She got more ass than a toilet seat.

Tell us more about the boobs you have roleplayed as, girls.

Quote from: Zoan on January 05, 2013, 03:45:41 PM
Tell us more about the boobs you have roleplayed as, girls.

I once played this half-giant merchant that had the sdesc: the keg-breasted half-giantess

Of course I ended up storing her because I can't stand playing merchants, but it was awesome while it lasted.

Quote from: Bast on January 05, 2013, 03:15:26 PM
Have you ever noticed that while there is an outstanding amount of bi-sexual female characters played there seems to be very few male pcs interested in open/bi-sexual relationships with other men? Or even if they say they are, they next to never pursue relations with other males? I am not saying it does not happen, but in my personal experience it is something I have seen very, very rarely in comparison. I think that's directly related to it being more social acceptable for woman to be bi-sexual and less so for men in our IRL western culture. I would love to see more big burly male Byners playing grab ass with each other in Gaj. In fact I think my next Char is gonna be male.
          I am very open with my sexuality and gender tends not to factor in when I am 'on the prowel' IRL but I tend to avoid this pretty often on Arm because it always tends to lead to someone looking to indulge their personal fantasies about having multiple ladies in the bed and generally acting like ho's  :-* . Also, the whole, just because I am open minded about my sex life, having multiple partners, and choice in partners does not mean I am still not picky or that I do not have standards, or that I want to sleep with you. :P Open mind, and experimental does not equal "Hi I am a Slut. I will go to bed with anyone that shakes my hand".
         I also thinks its bad that your judged poorly (by some) if you want to play an attractive PC once in while or that your obviously fishing for mud sex if your Female PC happens to have a medium or large breast size. I am naturally a D cup IRL that does not mean I want to sleep with everyone that give me a wink. I have on multiple occasions seen -modestly- dressed PC's have people ask them if they are whores based, as far as I could tell, solely on the fact that they had an attractive Main Desc. Lets ignore the fact the actual whores in a society like on the mud would be covered in festering sores... seriously look up some old pics of what real whores from back in the day looked like. They were not glamours attractive woman. Lately I have seemed to notice a trend with a large amount of female PC's having ant-bites for boobs and I honestly think its part of the whole oh well I don't want to seem anti-feminist and display woman in an unrealistic way. Just an Fyi while I am ranting the average breast size (without implants) is between 34B and 32C.

Sorry to rant about that but the last couple Character descriptions I have written up I have felt guilty and really wrestled over weather or not to even mention bust and actually worried I would be looked down on for having a character with a bust size similar to my own. Which made me in turn wonder why I should I feel guilty about  being well endowed up top.

Yeah, I can't tell you the number of times I've had pcs ask if my pcs were whores, even if they weren't dressed provocatively or trying to get any, just because they were fairly attractive. Meh.

Main reason on my part at least, that there are more bisexual women than men is because I don't play men! Ha. I might in the future, but just... eh. Feels less than attractive to me when there's so many other roles I can play that are female. Mostly... I'm honestly surprised by the things that pass as not being sexism that are. But that's just... an entirely different story and not something I'm about to post the details of in a thread. Just... yeah.

Quote from: Delirium on January 05, 2013, 03:30:29 PM
In more impoverished/desert areas, average breast size is an A cup. Ladies need lots of protein (and genes) to develop them luscious boobs. If they're especially active (warrior women) naturally large breasts will be even more uncommon. It's not a bad thing to have big boobs, but maybe the PCs are just trying to display the world realistically, not just going 'oh geez I don't want to seem like I'm trying to be *gasp* pretty.' And yes, I've played the whole spectrum of boob sizes. ;)

I think it really depends on the area and gene pool. I have a great deal of family in Iran and woman over there tend to be big breasted it gets up around 120's in the summer there. Starvation certainly plays into development however you will still breasts in the C to DD range in africa depending on the tribe.

You really cannot argue nevermind, you can argue that point, because it's the internet.

Quote from: Sanvean on January 05, 2013, 10:53:22 AM

QuoteI'd be more than happy to have a thread about how men are portrayed in the game as well.

This seems like a fine angle to me. Or even why these discussions do seem to always revolve around limiting play as a female, not as a male. I hadn't noticed that pattern before, and it unfolds all sorts of interesting thoughts and conjectures. But I need to go teach instead of maundering on the GDB. :p

     No, Sanvean!  Maunder, my Lady, maunder!

     And yes, Bast, I've noticed the trend you mentioned as well.  More guy-on-guy action, fellas!  *laugh*  When the current critter croaks, I'll give it another go.  Oi, me and my doomed ukes . . .

Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on January 05, 2013, 04:01:54 PM
Yeah, I can't tell you the number of times I've had pcs ask if my pcs were whores, even if they weren't dressed provocatively or trying to get any, just because they were fairly attractive. Meh.

I can't tell you the number of "attractive" female PCs who acted totally surprised when someone asked if they were whores. I mean - what -would- a commoner think, of someone with...

glisteningly clean golden blonde hair that ends at her well-rounded buttocks...
slender, but not emaciated, displaying all the proper proportions of womanly womanliness...
clean, except for a tiny smudge on her nose
flawless skin, except for a tiny scar on her chin
wearing a kadian-made generic nothing-special dress, kadian-made nothing-special slippers, kurac-made nothing-special cloak, and a blossom in her hair
Who is not employed by either Kadius or Kurac...not wearing any particular house's livery
Hanging out at the bar

Well heck - she's not a killer - killers would know better than to make it SO easy to grab their butt-long hair and choke them with their own tresses as a makeshift garrot.
Obviously not a shit-cleaner - she's clean, her hair is clean..obviously wealthy enough to afford water to clean herself with -
has obviously not endured a difficult life, so not impoverished, but then, not wearing silk, so not a fancy noble's concubine either.

She might be a burglar. But the if she *isn't* a whore, she should be. She'd make a fortune. Which is why people might ask if she is. To confirm what they suspect is already true. Maybe they're interested in offering her some money in exchange for an hour with such lovely silkiness. Or maybe they're thinking they'd ply her with sids for info on her last "important" customer.

If you make a PC look like they're probably not suitable for "grunge work"..and they're obviously not in a position of wealth or significant influence, then it makes sense people might assume they're selling that lucious body for sids.

Maybe not in the real world, but in a world like Zalanthas where whoring is no more or less a "respectable" job as grebbing, dung-cleaning, salting, mining, cotton-picking..it is a reasonable assumption to make - or at the very least, a reasonable question to ask.

Yeah, unless they have a merchant or bardic type background that would be the equivalent of Zalanthas' lower middle class (if you could say such a thing exists). There's plenty of women with hair that's not that long that still get hit on. I've had maybe 2 or 3 pcs out of about 50 with hair that long. And none of them was a whore.

Should we assume that a clean male pc who's not wearing armor is always a whore?

If not, why assume it with a female?

That's the type of unintentional bleedover of sexism to which I refer.

And yes, if my pc has made no overtures to show any even casual interest, they're probably going to be surprised when you proposition them for sex, with or without sid involved, regardless of how good they look. I think that's only natural if it's pretty much a stranger. Unless they -are- a whore, in which case, they probably would've been expecting it and not be surprised.

And, further, if my pc is NOT a combat type but not a noble, what are they supposed to wear? Kadian clothes mostly, nothing special. Kadian shoes, maybe? Nothing special. Nothing special cloak. Why not a flower in the hair if you happen to pass one? I don't see how -any- of those makes a pc any more likely to be a whore. There are plenty of plenty-slutty looking clothes to pick from. I would think that dressing in -average- clothes with a flower in the hair would be a tipoff that you were... I dunno... average?

And I know of plenty of females in real life that have those same type of slender but busty builds, enough so that... the example line looks pretty average, again.

I wouldn't know about asslength blonde hair that's 'glisteningly clean'.

And why would a trader type pc not want to hang out in a bar?

Actually, given the damn structure of socializing in the game, if you have a city pc at all, where the hell else would you hang out if you are unclanned and don't want to sit in your apartment?

Again, the tavern seems pretty much average.

Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on January 05, 2013, 06:50:56 PM
Should we assume that a clean male pc who's not wearing armor is always a whore?

     Krath, I wish this was the case.  Kismetic, you have your next assignment!  *tehe*

Amanda - the fact that my response offends you, is a pretty blatant bleedover of real-world sexism.

It is NOT offensive, in the world of Zalanthas, for a PC to wonder if another PC is a whore. If you are offended by it, then that's your real-world perception creeping into the game.

I used the Kadian clothing to indicate that your character probably isn't a crafter. Because if she was a clothing crafter, she -might- have made her clothing. Etc. etc. etc. (insert item that is only craftable if you're a member of that clan here) If she was a jeweler, she -might- have made her jewelry. I have seen people who have *obviously* NOT made anything on their person...which indicates a lower likelihood that the person is a crafter...notice the word "lower" and the word "likelihood" - I didn't say "definitely not a crafter."

Also, saying "it's easy to assume this is possible" is not the same as saying "we must all assume this is always true."

You're getting pretty emotional about this, and tossing things into the mix that you didn't claim was your concern. You expressed a specific concern. I responded to that specific concern. If you have OTHER concerns (which apparently you do), then hey - express them. But my response had nothing to do with those new concerns of yours.

One nitpick; we shouldn't let OOC knowledge of crafted vs uncrafted affect our IC assumptions.

Quote from: Delirium on January 05, 2013, 08:54:46 PM
One nitpick; we shouldn't let OOC knowledge of crafted vs uncrafted affect our IC assumptions.

That's why I specified that they were made by specific clans.. people ICly DO know that Kadius makes certain articles of clothing. Whether or not they're codedly craftable, our -characters- wouldn't know. But the point, was that certain things -are- clan-made. Craftable or not. And the fact that they are clan-made is known, ICly. Thus - I gave our hypothetical PC with the unknown profession, generic, but clan-made clothing. To rule out the *likelihood* that she is a crafter of clothing. Most people living in cities would have at least been IN the shops in the marketplaces, and would know "oh yeah - Kadius makes those." Or "That's definitely something Salarr has in stock every week. Or "Oh yes, everyone knows Kurac makes those."

That's not OOC knowledge, it's knowledge that our characters are likely to have, if they have spent a reasonable amount of time in city markets.

But as you said - it's a nitpick. And it's really not germaine to the topic.

I believe we were discussing boobs? We should continue with that.

Quote from: Lizzie on January 05, 2013, 06:32:12 PM

Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on January 05, 2013, 04:01:54 PM
Yeah, I can't tell you the number of times I've had pcs ask if my pcs were whores, even if they weren't dressed provocatively or trying to get any, just because they were fairly attractive. Meh.

I can't tell you the number of "attractive" female PCs who acted totally surprised when someone asked if they were whores. I mean - what -would- a commoner think, of someone with...

glisteningly clean golden blonde hair that ends at her well-rounded buttocks...
slender, but not emaciated, displaying all the proper proportions of womanly womanliness...
clean, except for a tiny smudge on her nose
flawless skin, except for a tiny scar on her chin
wearing a kadian-made generic nothing-special dress, kadian-made nothing-special slippers, kurac-made nothing-special cloak, and a blossom in her hair
Who is not employed by either Kadius or Kurac...not wearing any particular house's livery
Hanging out at the bar

Well heck - she's not a killer - killers would know better than to make it SO easy to grab their butt-long hair and choke them with their own tresses as a makeshift garrot.
Obviously not a shit-cleaner - she's clean, her hair is clean..obviously wealthy enough to afford water to clean herself with -
has obviously not endured a difficult life, so not impoverished, but then, not wearing silk, so not a fancy noble's concubine either.

She might be a burglar. But the if she *isn't* a whore, she should be. She'd make a fortune. Which is why people might ask if she is. To confirm what they suspect is already true. Maybe they're interested in offering her some money in exchange for an hour with such lovely silkiness. Or maybe they're thinking they'd ply her with sids for info on her last "important" customer.

If you make a PC look like they're probably not suitable for "grunge work"..and they're obviously not in a position of wealth or significant influence, then it makes sense people might assume they're selling that lucious body for sids.

Maybe not in the real world, but in a world like Zalanthas where whoring is no more or less a "respectable" job as grebbing, dung-cleaning, salting, mining, cotton-picking..it is a reasonable assumption to make - or at the very least, a reasonable question to ask.

In fact, in Allanak, it's considered a very respectable position, if you have the looks and skill. So i could easilly see it not being sexism.

Let's not forget Male whores. I have run into several over the years, played decently well.

The man with glistening muscles. Mmm mmm good.

Maybe I should clarify:

It annoys the fuck out of me OOCly.

Not because it's particularly wrong, but because I get so fucking tired of dealing with things like that, Lizzie.

I know it's a stretch, but a lot of people like to go more than a day or two when they can without everything being about their genitals.

It offends me not because 'whoring is wrong', but because it reminds me of the two year old constantly yanking at your skirt going 'Mommy mommy mommy mommy mama mama mama mama', until you snap and scream 'WHATTTTT?!?'


Edit to add: And you know, it really has nothing to do with attractiveness or tit size or blah blah blah. You know the only time I've -not- been propositioned as whore with a female pc who's lived a week or longer of RL time has been when I played a gemmed breed.

You shouldn't have to play someone who is social suicide to even talk to in order not to be picked up as a whore.

Playing male bisexuals is what Beethovens do best.

Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on January 05, 2013, 10:12:23 PM
Maybe I should clarify:

It annoys the fuck out of me OOCly.

Not because it's particularly wrong, but because I get so fucking tired of dealing with things like that, Lizzie.

I know it's a stretch, but a lot of people like to go more than a day or two when they can without everything being about their genitals.

It offends me not because 'whoring is wrong', but because it reminds me of the two year old constantly yanking at your skirt going 'Mommy mommy mommy mommy mama mama mama mama', until you snap and scream 'WHATTTTT?!?'

Ah. Well then that has nothing to do with gender equality (which is the topic). That's more of a generic sexuality-based pet peeve. I agree, it gets annoying, but I've only had one of my characters accused of being a whore. The whole "if we're not having sex, we should talk about it, or make jokes about it, or make lewd gestures to hint about it, or imply it, or make vague references to it, because that's what this MUD is all about" thing - is tiring, overdone, and childish. It's just as bad, to me, as when you sit in a room where nobles and/or templars and/or "high ranking" important people are talking, and you hear them discussing blood and gore in polite terms. All the freaking time. "Oh yes, we prefer our dead elf fried, with drawn escru butter." "Yes, magickers are always best when their heads are severed at an exact 90-degree angle. I find obsidian to be the appropriate blade - the blood bubbles nicely with it."

Really though - if you don't want to hear people accusing -your- characters specifically of being a whore - try looking at the similiarities with those characters you make, and try using different descriptive terms. Even changing "a windswept tousle" into "unruly curls" can give less of a perception of "hello this character exists for sex" and more of a "this character is a typical commoner who happened to eat a full meal this week, and had her monthly bath just yesterday."

It's the common Roger Rabbit syndrome:
Jessica Rabbit: You don't know how hard it is being a woman looking the way I do.
Eddie Valiant: You don't know how hard it is being a man looking at a woman looking the way you do.
Jessica Rabbit: I'm not bad. I'm just drawn that way.

Don't draw them that way, if it bothers you that much :)

Edited because I misspelled tousle. I think I still misspelled it but it looks better than tossle, which I know was wrong.

Quote from: Lizzie on January 05, 2013, 10:29:43 PM


Ah. Well then that has nothing to do with gender equality (which is the topic).


It's the common Roger Rabbit syndrome:
Jessica Rabbit: You don't know how hard it is being a woman looking the way I do.
Eddie Valiant: You don't know how hard it is being a man looking at a woman looking the way you do.
Jessica Rabbit: I'm not bad. I'm just drawn that way.

Don't draw them that way, if it bothers you that much :)

Edited because I misspelled tousle. I think I still misspelled it but it looks better than tossle, which I know was wrong.

1. Yes, it is. I've never heard of a single male pc having this problem, or the player of a male pc having shit like that to deal with, and since even according to you who play people who are clearly different than mine, you get hit on often enough as well or picked up as a whore the same, and for what? Clearly the pcs are nothing alike, must be because they're female, yeah?

2. I don't draw my pcs 'any one way', it doesn't matter if it's a 13 year old pc with antbite tits or a 25 year old with a huge chest, it still happens all the damn time.

3. Ever occur to you that pcs whose hair is a 'windswept tousle' might be because they are outside in the wind and don't comb it? Whether a whiran or someone who just travels often.

4. Would it be the same issue if a male pc's hair was in a 'windswept tousle'? Again, no. Again, pointing to this being entirely about gender.

Edit to add:
And, what's more, I've never seen, met, or heard of any pc who was ever around 'just to mudsex'. The closest I ever saw to that was a gypsy from 08-09 that I'm sure many know of, who has a name that rhymes with 'nosy'. And even then, I'm sure that's not the case.

I should not have to eliminate certain words from the description of what a character looks like to keep their player from thinking my pc is just out for sex. How much of an issue is it that the general assumption is they are out for sex unless their mdesc -doesn't- use certain words, or they -don't- dress a certain way? To me, it's a bigger issue as time goes on, because I get really tired of the constant presumption. I wish that other -players- would give me the benefit of the doubt, or at least assume that just because I as a player wrote what the character looks like and they aren't ugly, that I'm not making a pc to be a whore or constantly indulge in mudsex.

I'm married. I get laid enough IRL. I don't want or need to spend the majority of my time in-game fucking. And I shouldn't have to do some kind of word choice rain dance with hideous fucking chud pcs to avoid it, either. I don't think that's fair OR realistic, and it's -certainly- not a good rubric of gender equality when male pcs aren't held to the same standards.

You've never heard of a male having this problem, because it isn't usually considered a "problem" when it happens to males. I've seen it happen plenty to male PCs who are depicted as physically attractive, or use certain phrases in their mdescs (such as - "flowing <insert color> hair" or "tapered waist" or "muscular arms", for example, and certainly not exclusive). Happens all the time, in fact. You just don't get many males complaining about it. I don't see them getting confused for whores, but I -do- see people assuming they want a "relationship" - whether that's for mudsex, or fading, but regardless, an IC mating situation.

You also are misreading what I said. Again. I was very specific. I said I have had someone confuse ONE of my characters for a whore. One. Once. Never before, never after.

As for getting picked up on - I've observed that _anyone_ with a well-written mdesc is likely to get hit on ICly, more often than someone with a description written poorly, or formatted incorrectly, or filled with typos or misspellings. It doesn't matter if they're male or female. That's not a gender bias. That's a writing bias. I am not the best writer, but I like to think I'm pretty good at it. I got hit on when I played a male character too, and he wasn't sexy at all. He was young, naive, boyish and unsophisticated and shy, and mostly not interested in sex. He was practically irresistable, and I attribute it to the fact that I wrote his description well. Couldn't have been his personality, unless there's a whole lot of people in Arm portraying their characters as women who want to get in bed with boys. Which - to me - is pretty creepy.

The point of the post is about perception Amanda. It doesn't matter what you intend with your character. It doesn't matter whether or not your character does, or does not, exist for sex. What matters is how other people perceive your character, and how you perceive other characters. Regardless of the intention. If they are written using certain terms, phrases, and sometimes even words, the reader of those words is going to perceive something specific. They will have a picture in their head, of what they -think- they are reading. Even if that picture is completely different from what you picture in YOUR head.

The written word is all we have in Armageddon to depict what we want people to perceive. If you continue to get a certain perception from so many readers, with so many of your characters, then you have to start looking at what YOU are doing, that is causing this perception.

I'd like to chime in on Lizzie's point... Yes some male PCs are waylaid by women who would like to tie them to a bed. Yes literally tie to the bed. The only difference is not many people ask if male PCs want to be paid for their sexy bodies  :'( (AKA: Not many people ask if male PCs are whores)

Quote from: Jeshin on January 05, 2013, 11:36:32 PM
I'd like to chime in on Lizzie's point... Yes some male PCs are waylaid by women who would like to tie them to a bed. Yes literally tie to the bed. The only difference is not many people ask if male PCs want to be paid for their sexy bodies  :'( (AKA: Not many people ask if male PCs are whores)

Well I'd say, in a world like Zalanthas, that would be an insult to the males. Poor things, no one thinks they're worth paying for :)

Quote from: Jeshin on January 05, 2013, 11:36:32 PMThe only difference is not many people ask if male PCs want to be paid for their sexy bodies  :'( (AKA: Not many people ask if male PCs are whores)

If only female characters tend to be mistaken for whores (which seems to be the case), it's hard to see that as anything over than the result of real-life gender attitudes being brought into the game. It's as if a prostitute is considered one of a few expected archetypes for female characters but not so for male characters.

Quote from: flurry on January 05, 2013, 11:57:22 PM

Quote from: Jeshin on January 05, 2013, 11:36:32 PMThe only difference is not many people ask if male PCs want to be paid for their sexy bodies  :'( (AKA: Not many people ask if male PCs are whores)

If only female characters tend to be mistaken for whores (which seems to be the case), it's hard to see that as anything over than the result of real-life gender attitudes being brought into the game. It's as if a prostitute is considered one of a few expected archetypes for female characters but not so for male characters.

Well then, be the change you want to see. Proposition your local attractive male PC. Start a new trend. There's nothing stopping anyone from doing it.

Also Amanda, I've seen men blatantly try to talk social-suicides into sex. Plenty of times. i think women in Zalanthas should stab men that give unwanted advances. Across the board, at all times.

Quote from: flurry on January 05, 2013, 11:57:22 PM

Quote from: Jeshin on January 05, 2013, 11:36:32 PMThe only difference is not many people ask if male PCs want to be paid for their sexy bodies  :'( (AKA: Not many people ask if male PCs are whores)

If only female characters tend to be mistaken for whores (which seems to be the case), it's hard to see that as anything over than the result of real-life gender attitudes being brought into the game. It's as if a prostitute is considered one of a few expected archetypes for female characters but not so for male characters.

THANK YOU!

Flurry just put it very concisely.

Yes, some men in game are sexualized. But the VAST MAJORITY of women are. It is EXPECTED of women. -THAT- is the part that is sexism bleeding over. THAT is the part I would like to see stop happening so damn lopsidedly.

Quote from: Fredd on January 06, 2013, 12:21:31 AM
Also Amanda, I've seen men blatantly try to talk social-suicides into sex. Plenty of times. i think women in Zalanthas should stab men that give unwanted advances. Across the board, at all times.

Kill the crim code in taverns and I promise I'll start. ;)

Quote from: Lizzie on January 06, 2013, 12:04:25 AM

Quote from: flurry on January 05, 2013, 11:57:22 PM

Quote from: Jeshin on January 05, 2013, 11:36:32 PMThe only difference is not many people ask if male PCs want to be paid for their sexy bodies  :'( (AKA: Not many people ask if male PCs are whores)

If only female characters tend to be mistaken for whores (which seems to be the case), it's hard to see that as anything over than the result of real-life gender attitudes being brought into the game. It's as if a prostitute is considered one of a few expected archetypes for female characters but not so for male characters.

Well then, be the change you want to see. Proposition your local attractive male PC. Start a new trend. There's nothing stopping anyone from doing it.

I don't particularly want to see it more with male pcs. I would like to see it stop being EXPECTED of female pcs.

I've been playing Arm for several years and I have seen quite a few male whores in my time... some very obvious that you didn't need to ask if they were, some not so obvious but still give you that certain feeling about them, some hiding it quite well. So on this, I have to disagree.

That's good. How about in the last 2 years?

I've seen 1 in the 5 years I've been playing, in like 2009, and he did really poorly. For some reason, nobody just assumed he was a whore. Funny, that.

I'm sure I've missed some,  but that is not everyone's experience. Not by far.

QuoteThe Tuluk Templarate is divided into two orders: the Lirathan Order, comprised solely of women clothed in white; and the Jihaen Order, a martial brotherhood wearing armor embossed with the red moon, Jihae.

I've always seen dividing the templarate by gender as a form of sexism. Anyone agree? Maybe this documentation is old, I haven't played a PC is Tuluk since 2006. If it's still accurate, it would seem sexism does exist IC.

I do not see how there could be any harm in retroactively making the Jihaen and Lirathan orders non-sex discriminating.

You know, I was just about to disagree with you... then I decided to look up the dictionary version of sexism in compare to my own thoughts on it and... no, you're right, it does exist.

Point 1 is the part I'm talking about, but you're talking about point 2.

sex·ism  [sek-siz-uh m]  Show IPA
noun
1.
attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles.
2.
discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; especially, such discrimination directed against women.

I am pro "offer to pay men for sex". Please ladies ... don't be sexist. Get your coins out. Make it rain black.

Having played a character that hit on men incessantly, let me assure people out there that are considering 'being the change', it is a potload of fun.

Guarenteed to fill at least a medium-sized metaphorical pot or your money back, in fact.

Quote from: i can haz mantis on January 06, 2013, 12:45:06 AM
I've been playing Arm for several years and I have seen quite a few male whores in my time... some very obvious that you didn't need to ask if they were, some not so obvious but still give you that certain feeling about them, some hiding it quite well. So on this, I have to disagree.

This I've seen several in the last 4 years, including the last two. The thing is they don't get nearly as much attention as an actual female whore.

Yeah... I don't try and pick up whores much, male or female. And there's probably a lot of other female players like that.
I also don't enjoy having my pcs picked up as whores. Is it too much to ask to see if maybe they would reveal it in conversation? If you haven't spoken five words with you, why the FUCK would they want to go into a locked apartment possibly with you?

Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on January 06, 2013, 02:18:06 AM
Yeah... I don't try and pick up whores much, male or female. And there's probably a lot of other female players like that.
I also don't enjoy having my pcs picked up as whores. Is it too much to ask to see if maybe they would reveal it in conversation? If you haven't spoken five words with you, why the FUCK would they want to go into a locked apartment possibly with you?

Typically, they do, if they are loking for a client. And most wear there merchent token/liscense rather visualy, to show they are on duty. I think people are just hoping you want to cyber-hump them amanda.

I think the Lirathan and Jihaen templarate were created when the world was young (i.e. when 15 year old boys were in charge of the mud and the Age of Sanvean had not yet come) and so were categorized in much more stereotypical roles than the rest of the mud.  The Lirathans were record keepers and administrators.  Oh, and they were also a lower order than the Jihaens, serving as a type of secretary to the martial templarate.  It does seem a bit annoying that only men are able to be warmongers and kung fu templars in Tuluk.  I find the Jihaens a much more appealing an order than the Lirathans, but playing male characters is not that interesting to me.  Still, I'm not a huge fan of (inorganic) leadership roles to begin with, so it's not a huge loss.  But it is an example of one of the only roles in armageddon that are limited by gender.  

Other than that one nitpick (and maybe one or two other roles which players can't hold anyway), it is a nice feeling to know that any role in the game that I might wish to have is open to me, as long as I have the skill and desire to go after it.

Quote from: LauraMars on January 06, 2013, 02:39:27 AM
I think the Lirathan and Jihaen templarate were created when the world was young (i.e. when 15 year old boys were in charge of the mud and the Age of Sanvean had not yet come) and so were categorized in much more stereotypical roles than the rest of the mud.  The Lirathans were record keepers and administrators.  Oh, and they were also a lower order than the Jihaens, serving as a type of secretary to the martial templarate.  It does seem a bit annoying that only men are able to be warmongers and kung fu templars in Tuluk.  I find the Jihaens a much more appealing an order than the Lirathans, but playing male characters is not that interesting to me.  Still, I'm not a huge fan of (inorganic) leadership roles to begin with, so it's not a huge loss.  But it is an example of one of the only roles in armageddon that are limited by gender.  

Other than that one nitpick (and maybe one or two other roles which players can't hold anyway), it is a nice feeling to know that any role in the game that I might wish to have is open to me, as long as I have the skill and desire to go after it.

From what I understand. There is a specific reason for this seperation, and there abilitys, and what they do.

In the brief time I played a male--someone I thought I was playing as unassuming and friendly (maybe even downright bland)--I was either ignored or looked at like I was crazy or possibly even creepy. I don't know how you fellows deal with this kind of behavior towards your persons!








Edit: Yes, that was facetious in tone

Quote from: Fredd on January 06, 2013, 02:09:19 AM

Quote from: i can haz mantis on January 06, 2013, 12:45:06 AM
I've been playing Arm for several years and I have seen quite a few male whores in my time... some very obvious that you didn't need to ask if they were, some not so obvious but still give you that certain feeling about them, some hiding it quite well. So on this, I have to disagree.

This I've seen several in the last 4 years, including the last two. The thing is they don't get nearly as much attention as an actual female whore.

Exactly!

Which, to me, says that whatever sexism you are seeing in game toward this particular profession is coming in on an OOC level.

I am also pro female jihaens and male lirathans.

It doesn't really matter if girls don't want to hire male whores that much, does it?  Or even that male players are more likely than female players to hire prostitutes.  I think it's stupid to infer that female players are doing something wrong by being uninterested in hiring male whores, and I also think it's stupid to infer that male players are doing something wrong by wanting to hire female whores.

The point is that nobody is stopping men from becoming whores if they want to play that role.  

Quote from: LauraMars on January 06, 2013, 03:10:52 AM
It doesn't really matter if girls don't want to hire male whores that much, does it?  Or even that male players are more likely than female players to hire prostitutes.  I think it's stupid to infer that female players are doing something wrong by being uninterested in hiring male whores, and I also think it's stupid to infer that male players are doing something wrong by wanting to hire female whores.

The point is that nobody is stopping men from becoming whores if they want to play that role.  

And, no one is stopping women from not becoming whores if they don't want to play that role. Just, if you're hawt and emote sexy, sometimes you may get asked.

You are wise beyond your maklar.

This has always been an unpopular opinion of mine, but, I've always felt that males being faster to empathize their sexual prowess/act in a provocative way is realistic for the setting. Women, regardless of how badass they are, run the risk of being impregnated - and if they were to get knocked up by a man whore, that would leave them between a rock and a hard place. Even if they are using Mul Mix, they still run the risk.  They could ask for "early withdrawal", but there's really no guarantee that their male partner would do as requested.

It's not that I'm so overly bothered about who chooses to play what - it's just why I think female whores might be more common, thankfully, alot (at least from what I have seen) of that kind of thing is hand-waved so female PC's aren't pressured to acting like 80's housewives or pretty, defenseless little things who couldn't possibly survive without a man's heroic presence.

Quote from: Lutagar on January 06, 2013, 03:41:49 AMfemale PC's aren't pressured to acting like 80's housewives

(http://1photos.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/wpid-web_displeased_woman_s35_39_part.jpg)

An "80s housewife"

seems legit

Quote from: LauraMars on January 06, 2013, 03:47:46 AM

Quote from: Lutagar on January 06, 2013, 03:41:49 AMfemale PC's aren't pressured to acting like 80's housewives

(http://1photos.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/wpid-web_displeased_woman_s35_39_part.jpg)

An "80s housewife"

seems legit

(http://[quote%20author=lauramars%20link=topic=44772.msg730059#msg730059%20date=1357462066%5D%3Cbr%20/%3E%5Bquote%20author=Lutagar%20link=topic=44772.msg730058#msg730058%20date=1357461709%5Dfemale%20PC's%20aren't%20pressured%20to%20acting%20like%2080's%20housewives%5B/quote%5D%3Cbr%20/%3E%3Cbr%20/%3E%5Bimg%20width=600%20height=399%5Dhttp://1photos.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/wpid-web_displeased_woman_s35_39_part.jpg)

An "80s housewife"

seems legit
[/quote]

(http://cdn2.modernman.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/peg.jpg)

I would be perfectly ok with this.[/img]

Quote from: LauraMars on January 06, 2013, 03:10:52 AM
It doesn't really matter if girls don't want to hire male whores that much, does it?  Or even that male players are more likely than female players to hire prostitutes.  I think it's stupid to infer that female players are doing something wrong by being uninterested in hiring male whores, and I also think it's stupid to infer that male players are doing something wrong by wanting to hire female whores.

The point is that nobody is stopping men from becoming whores if they want to play that role.  

Yes, no one is debating that. What the complaint is is that every female pc this person makes, gets asked if they are a whore. and it seems rather common. And that is a problem honestly. And it's only fix is at the player level. Admins can't really do much about it.

Quote from: Fredd on January 06, 2013, 09:15:48 AM

Quote from: LauraMars on January 06, 2013, 03:10:52 AM
It doesn't really matter if girls don't want to hire male whores that much, does it?  Or even that male players are more likely than female players to hire prostitutes.  I think it's stupid to infer that female players are doing something wrong by being uninterested in hiring male whores, and I also think it's stupid to infer that male players are doing something wrong by wanting to hire female whores.

The point is that nobody is stopping men from becoming whores if they want to play that role.  

Yes, no one is debating that. What the complaint is is that every female pc this person makes, gets asked if they are a whore. and it seems rather common. And that is a problem honestly. And it's only fix is at the player level. Admins can't really do much about it.

Except, it's not common. I'm a pretty active player, I play during peak, and occasionally off-peak during USA daytime (before most kids get home from school and after most adults go to work). My characters are often in bars, and often outside cities. Where people typically congregate, and where they don't. Most of my characters have the "listen" skill (not all, but definitely most). So I am either part of, or hear, conversations between other players every RL day, of every RL week, with the exception of a couple weeks vacation each year, every year, for the past several years. And I can assure you - this "calling every female character in the game a whore" just plain doesn't happen.

If it's happening to this one player - then there's something SHE is doing, that is contributing to it. Perhaps there are certain players who play characters that always accuse females who have a certain look, if they're whores - and she keeps playing those certain-looking famales, and hanging around those characters played by those particular players. It could be that simple.

This does happen. I'm not saying it doesn't. But it doesn't happen to all the attractive characters. It doesn't happen every day, and it doesn't happen *from* all the male characters. For all we know, it could be just a certain few characters who come from low-life scum backgrounds, and see any pretty thing without a signet ring as a chance to get laid by quality goods. And look - they're even offering to pay for it. That doesn't mean all pretty female PCs get hit on by all male PCs, nor does it mean that all PCs accuse all pretty PC females of being whores.

It's mostly hyperbole, based on one player's unpleasant experiences. And that leads me to believe that it's that one player who is, somehow, contributing to the unpleasantness. Notice I'm not saying she's causing it. I don't believe she's *causing* it. But I'm guessing, based on my experiences of my characters, and my observations of other public scenes in the game of other characters, that there's something significant missing from the complaint. And that something significant, goes far beyond "I was doing nothing provocative, just minding my own business."

Quote from: Lizzie on January 06, 2013, 09:36:25 AM
It's mostly hyperbole, based on one player's unpleasant experiences.

I gotta say this is what it sounds like to me too honestly. I mean ok sure I'm not a female, I don't play female PC's, and my PC's very very rarely ever have an interest in romance with other PC's so I don't go hunting for this "side of the game" at all.

But I've seen people flirt in bars while I'm there trying to grind up my listen skill plenty  ;)

And I just, haven't really seen this whole "Hey you a whore?" thing in action.

But um, then again ... ... maybe I just need to play in Allanak more. The very first time I ever brought a character of mine from the north, to the south ... the first PC they met down there who interacted with them was a whore, soliciting them to put her to work so ... man is there really that much sex going on in the south?  :o

Quote from: LauraMars on January 06, 2013, 02:39:27 AM
I think the Lirathan and Jihaen templarate were created when the world was young (i.e. when 15 year old boys were in charge of the mud and the Age of Sanvean had not yet come) and so were categorized in much more stereotypical roles than the rest of the mud.

These assumptions are incorrect.

Quote from: williamson on January 06, 2013, 10:28:16 AM

Quote from: LauraMars on January 06, 2013, 02:39:27 AM
I think the Lirathan and Jihaen templarate were created when the world was young (i.e. when 15 year old boys were in charge of the mud and the Age of Sanvean had not yet come) and so were categorized in much more stereotypical roles than the rest of the mud.

These assumptions are incorrect.

Personally I like how the gender roles are in the Tuluki templarate.  Especially Lirathans, they reek of the Bene Gesserit in a good way.  I think it adds to the mystique of the roles being a distinct brotherhood and sisterhood.  In Allanak the PC templars are all blue robes that afaik have similiar responsibilities and powers.  Tuluk has a divided templarate, each with their own sphere of influence.

/derail

'less players are interested in hiring male whores'

'nobody is stopping people from playing male whores if they want to'

Seems legit.

Quote from: musashi on January 06, 2013, 10:26:28 AM

And I just, haven't really seen this whole "Hey you a whore?" thing in action.

But um, then again ... ... maybe I just need to play in Allanak more. The very first time I ever brought a character of mine from the north, to the south ... the first PC they met down there who interacted with them was a whore, soliciting them to put her to work so ... man is there really that much sex going on in the south?  :o

Oh yeah. It happens. Especially with my southern elven women for some reason. I had an elven woman wearing a dress, boots and a necklace, just normal stuff, and she was once assumed directly to be a whore by some passing dude and asked questions about her job.

I would congradulate the statistics on that, but sexual promiscuity isn't supposed to be derogatory or low-class, so, whatever. Just some weird statistic. Good mudsex-easy role, maybe, unless my, four? elven pcs are a statistical outlier.

Maybe I just suck at flirting and swaggering, but my male whore had trouble finding, no matter which side of the fence he was swinging at.

My point on the whore thing is whores are not glamour. They have nasty STD's are generally covered in sores . Being a concubine on Arm is not being a whore. Your the pleasure toy to ONE noble. Who would likely have you killed for embarrassing them if they found out you had other lovers. Its actually a high station that puts you up on the social ladder. It is in the Docs.

http://www.armageddon.org/general/ranktable.html

This off the topic of sexism but Concubine as not courtisane. Some how people get eastern culture and western culture all confused and it drives me insane. If I see someone dressed pretty without shit all over them I assume they are someone important. Not a common street walker that gets paid 20 sids -if- they are lucky to let a breed take them in a back alley. I do not understand where this, oh your dressed rich means your a whore? In what magically world do the vast majority of whores make enough money that they clade themselves in the equivalent gucci and prada?

Quote from: Bast on January 06, 2013, 12:10:47 PM
My point on the whore thing is whores are not glamour. They have nasty STD's are generally covered in sores . Being a concubine on Arm is not being a whore. Your the pleasure to ONE noble. Its actually a high station that puts you up on the social ladder. It is in the Docs.

http://www.armageddon.org/general/ranktable.html

This off the topic of sexism but Concubine as not courtisane. Some how people get eastern culture and western culture all confused and it drives me insane. If I see someone dressed pretty without shit all over them I assume they are someone important. Not a common street walker that gets paid 20 sids -if- they are lucky to let a breed take them in a back alley. I do not understand where this, oh your dressed rich means your a whore? In what magically world do the vast majority of whores make enough money that they clade themselves in the equivalent gucci and prada?

Thank you, that's kind of my point. I think making someone that looks and dresses average to well shouldn't mean you're automatically assumed to be a whore. If anything, I would think from most of the npc representations I've seen... you'd look much different than that as an in-game whore. Maybe that's just me, but I feel like you and I are maybe on the same page here, Bast?

I too played a male whore once circa 2008-09? (http://www.armageddon.org/original/showSubmission.php?submission=522)

He was rejected left and right by women, and the log ^ is one of the only "clients" he ever got (who were playing a practical joke and he had to beat up for his money)

So why should my character have to be female to be a successful whore, guys? :-X :-[

If he plied his trade in Tuluk... then I believe you were the one I ran into, and if so, well-played.

Quote from: Bast on January 06, 2013, 12:10:47 PM
My point on the whore thing is whores are not glamour. They have nasty STD's are generally covered in sores . Being a concubine on Arm is not being a whore. Your the pleasure toy to ONE noble. Who would likely have you killed for embarrassing them if they found out you had other lovers. Its actually a high station that puts you up on the social ladder. It is in the Docs.

http://www.armageddon.org/general/ranktable.html

This off the topic of sexism but Concubine as not courtisane. Some how people get eastern culture and western culture all confused and it drives me insane. If I see someone dressed pretty without shit all over them I assume they are someone important. Not a common street walker that gets paid 20 sids -if- they are lucky to let a breed take them in a back alley. I do not understand where this, oh your dressed rich means your a whore? In what magically world do the vast majority of whores make enough money that they clade themselves in the equivalent gucci and prada?

You just named concubines. You answered your own question.

There's two kinds of people who care about their appearance: those who have something to represent, and those who make money off of it. Noble houses and the alike might clad their people in expensive clothes and jewelry, seeing as they have a reputation to keep. They pour enormous amounts of money into it, simply for the sakes of them being important and rich and wishing to show it. When you have nobody to represent and yet walk in expensive clothes and ornaments, you're either someone who is -really- awfully bad at managing their money, or you're someone trying to catch clients with a lot of cash.

The one time I ran into a male whore, I hired him.  I faded.  NBD.  Played plenty of females, and the only time anybody ever asked if I was a prostitute was when I was actually playing a prostitute.

If someone HAD called one of my other characters a whore though, I wouldn't be offended in real life, because Zalanthas is full of gritty characters and whores, and also it's a video game.  My character might have been offended, or might not have been, depending on the character.  If it was something that happened in real life though I might be offended.

BTW, I don't know what people think of when they hear the words "male whore" but the ones I've seen in game have never appealed to me as a female.  With the exception of the man with glistening muscles (<3) of course.  If guys are looking for tips on how to make their sexual soliciting more appealing, this is just an opinion from a red-blooded female: Where are all the half-naked, muscular dudestitutes?  Give me more shirtless, flexing, muscle-bound manwhores.  I'll take Laurentide or Gage Gritshaw over a silk-clad hidden magicker whore any day of the week.  Keep your perfumed hankies and soft hands for your Kadian family member app.  

Just my opinion, naturally - everyone can play what and who they want.

Quote from: MeTekillot on January 06, 2013, 01:03:39 AM
I do not see how there could be any harm in retroactively making the Jihaen and Lirathan orders non-sex discriminating.

I personally always imagined this was a throw back from Dune.

And that is all I'm going to say because to say more would give too much away.

Quote from: Bast on January 06, 2013, 12:10:47 PM
My point on the whore thing is whores are not glamour. They have nasty STD's are generally covered in sores . Being a concubine on Arm is not being a whore.

I don't agree with the whole whores in sores trademark. If all whores had sores there wouldn't be a GMH marketing them. The whore NPCs I've seen in game do NOT have sore, they're clean...ish. I haven't seen rinthi whores though since I haven't played in there but I can only imagine that maybe, since lots of rinthers are starving,filthy and covered in sores, that maybe their hoochiemommas could be oozing some shiznit.

I've noticed a lack of whore love, that's oocly driven me thinks.

Score one for the ladies. (http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=311)

Quote from: MeTekillot on January 06, 2013, 01:03:39 AM
I do not see how there could be any harm in retroactively making the Jihaen and Lirathan orders non-sex discriminating.

I've always thought this. I think there should be males and females of both orders to stay in line with the sexism doesn't exist thing. I know sexism doesn't have anything to do with the orders being as they are but it still creates a symbol of separation between them and I don't think it should be that way.

Quote from: Rhyden on January 06, 2013, 12:15:31 PM
I too played a male whore once circa 2008-09? (http://www.armageddon.org/original/showSubmission.php?submission=522)

He was rejected left and right by women, and the log ^ is one of the only "clients" he ever got (who were playing a practical joke and he had to beat up for his money)

So why should my character have to be female to be a successful whore, guys? :-X :-[

I read that log way back when it was submitted, that was awesome!

Awwwww, that bums me out that it didn't work out for you. I woulda hired you if I'd been playing that year! I was on hiatus though I think :P

Quote from: LauraMars on January 06, 2013, 01:18:55 PM


BTW, I don't know what people think of when they hear the words "male whore" but the ones I've seen in game have never appealed to me as a female.  With the exception of the man with glistening muscles (<3) of course.  If guys are looking for tips on how to make their sexual soliciting more appealing, this is just an opinion from a red-blooded female: Where are all the half-naked, muscular dudestitutes?  Give me more shirtless, flexing, muscle-bound manwhores.  I'll take Laurentide or Gage Gritshaw over a silk-clad hidden magicker whore any day of the week.  Keep your perfumed hankies and soft hands for your Kadian family member app.  

Just my opinion, naturally - everyone can play what and who they want.

Seems staff had the same opinion. Al lot of NPC/VNPC male whores and strippers look like that, even in the Gaj.

Quote from: Narf on January 06, 2013, 05:38:13 PM

Quote from: LauraMars on January 06, 2013, 01:18:55 PM


BTW, I don't know what people think of when they hear the words "male whore" but the ones I've seen in game have never appealed to me as a female.  With the exception of the man with glistening muscles (<3) of course.  If guys are looking for tips on how to make their sexual soliciting more appealing, this is just an opinion from a red-blooded female: Where are all the half-naked, muscular dudestitutes?  Give me more shirtless, flexing, muscle-bound manwhores.  I'll take Laurentide or Gage Gritshaw over a silk-clad hidden magicker whore any day of the week.  Keep your perfumed hankies and soft hands for your Kadian family member app. 

Just my opinion, naturally - everyone can play what and who they want.

Seems staff had the same opinion. Al lot of NPC/VNPC male whores and strippers look like that, even in the Gaj.

Including the dwarven strippers.

There's male strippers in the Gaj now?

I've been away for longer than I thought.

Quote from: LauraMars on January 06, 2013, 11:17:28 PM
There's male strippers in the Gaj now?

I've been away for longer than I thought.

No, there's no male strippers in the Gaj. There are only male whores in the Gaj.

This aint no krathdamn dirty noodle-doodled Tuluki bar we're talkin bout here, Malik. This here's a 'naki bar, and at 'naki bars, the half-naked men don't wiggle their sausages at you subtly for sids. If you wanna gristly sausage in the Gaj, you can have it one of two ways. Neither of them ways involves pants.

Let's agree that some people think the separation of Lirathans and Jihaens by sex is in fact sexist. There is no need to discuss the finer, more IC points of their differences on the GDB. I've edited some posts that hinted too strongly. Thanks!

Quote from: MeTekillot on January 06, 2013, 11:43:11 AM
Maybe I just suck at flirting and swaggering, but my male whore had trouble finding, no matter which side of the fence he was swinging at.

I've lost my mojo apparently, because none of my characters, male or female, get much of any action, whores or not.

Since when did sexism mean whoring anyway?! I'm giggling that this thread turned into "whores" and "templars". 8)

I guess those are supposed to be the two easiest to spot examples of it?

I dunno. I would prefer the Jihaen and Lirathan Orders were not separated by gender, but it doesn't drive a knife through my heart that they aren't.

The whole whore thing I just draw a massive blank on. Never seen it IG.

I think we're very good at not being sexist.

Quote from: boog on January 07, 2013, 09:08:07 AM
Since when did sexism mean whoring anyway?! I'm giggling that this thread turned into "whores" and "templars". 8)

Whores & templars sounds like a naughty Zalanthan board game.

I don't think it's that big of a deal that the warrior class of templars in Tuluk happen to be male and the non-combatative class of templars are female.

A lack of sexism does not mean that things have to be a certain way 100% across the board. So the male templars of Tuluk are the warriors and the female templars are .. not. Big whoop. Female players certainly aren't prevented from playing combatative roles. Nor are they restricted from playing warrior-like templars - there is always Allanak, after all.

I personally like the gender assignments for Tuluk's templars. I think it provides a healthy challenge against the more stereotypical notions of a society without sexism. A simpleton who writes a fantasy novel taking place in a world without sexism would create a setting with a very predictable, cookie-cutter, Xena Warrior Princess-type of image. Arm, on the other hand, says that just because a world has full gender equality, doesn't mean there might not exist a place where the men happen to be the warriors and the females do.. other.. things. In another part of Zalanthas the reverse could be true, but this is how they happen to roll in Tuluk.

I don't think I have ever seen anyone in Arm actually do anything "sexist". By that I mean I don't think I have seen anyone treat anyone a certain way based strictly on their gender. I've never seen anyone tell a muscle-bound she-beast, "You have to make me a sandwhich because you have a vag!", and I've never seen anyone tell a dainty foppish guy in game, "You have to do the hunting and the providing because you have a weiner!"

Have I seen a lot of guys treat the dainty little f-me pc's the same way men treat dainty women in the princess fairytale stories? Yes. But I think that has a lot more to do with the fact we see so many dainty little f-me pc's and not so many gruff rugged hardass muscle-beast female pc's. If you make, "The dainty, diamond-eyed girl", you can expect me to treat you much differently than I treat, "The war-scarred, hefty woman".

I treat big gruff muscle-beast ladies the same way I treat big gruff muscle-beast men in game. The same goes for foppish little frail dudes and girlies.

It isn't my fault there happens to be a lot more of one than the other typically.

I would get all rightous and say, "So you girls should stop playing so many "typical" girly girls!", but at the same time, I see no appeal in playing a foppish dainty little dude either. So I understand why it happens.

I feel there is a certain amount of "sexism" in the game because for the most part I see us writing our characters in sexist ways.

My opinion anyhow.

I have to agree about how well we as a community of roleplayers do in regards to sexism. No one has ever said to a character of mine that they can't do or be something they desire because they're one gender or another.

I have had my plain Jane characters pigeon-holed and like, had things assumed about them (about their physical appearance of all things, because I didn't describe how big or small their titties were in an mdesc though I said they had 'slender feminine curves' or something like that), but that was only once in game and was a really long time ago.

But, anyway. Yes. I'd say we do pretty well not discriminating against characters in game because of sex. Now, on the GDB, that's a whole 'nother thing. ;)

Quote from: musashi on January 06, 2013, 03:12:55 AM

Quote from: LauraMars on January 06, 2013, 03:10:52 AM
It doesn't really matter if girls don't want to hire male whores that much, does it?  Or even that male players are more likely than female players to hire prostitutes.  I think it's stupid to infer that female players are doing something wrong by being uninterested in hiring male whores, and I also think it's stupid to infer that male players are doing something wrong by wanting to hire female whores.

The point is that nobody is stopping men from becoming whores if they want to play that role.  

And, no one is stopping women from not becoming whores if they don't want to play that role. Just, if you're hawt and emote sexy, sometimes you may get asked.

You are wise beyond your maklar.

I don't think that being asked is the problem. The problem is being browbeaten upon saying no. I played a pc who said no and was lectured and cajoled by 6 people at a bar . She didn't say eww, just no. Then got a lecture about how there was noting wrong with it for 15 minutes.

I think that is not an ic issue, but a player issue. People taking any opportunity to be self-congratulatory and unkind. Is it sexist? Hard to say. Often it feels like it, but it is possible to be a jerk without being sexist.

Quote from: Barzalene on January 07, 2013, 05:53:27 PM

Quote from: musashi on January 06, 2013, 03:12:55 AM

Quote from: LauraMars on January 06, 2013, 03:10:52 AM
It doesn't really matter if girls don't want to hire male whores that much, does it?  Or even that male players are more likely than female players to hire prostitutes.  I think it's stupid to infer that female players are doing something wrong by being uninterested in hiring male whores, and I also think it's stupid to infer that male players are doing something wrong by wanting to hire female whores.

The point is that nobody is stopping men from becoming whores if they want to play that role. 

And, no one is stopping women from not becoming whores if they don't want to play that role. Just, if you're hawt and emote sexy, sometimes you may get asked.

You are wise beyond your maklar.

I don't think that being asked is the problem. The problem is being browbeaten upon saying no. I played a pc who said no and was lectured and cajoled by 6 people at a bar . She didn't say eww, just no. Then got a lecture about how there was noting wrong with it for 15 minutes.

I think that is not an ic issue, but a player issue. People taking any opportunity to be self-congratulatory and unkind. Is it sexist? Hard to say. Often it feels like it, but it is possible to be a jerk without being sexist.

Well put. As I've said before, what I -have- seen in game, I don't really think is meant to be sexist, it just winds up coming across that way on some occasions. I'm used to attractive pcs being hit on, I just... dealt with a series of small events, about 13, on one character that were, separately, fairly innocuous, but put together... wound up with an experience (with that particular pc) that was EXTREMELY negative.

Quote from: boog on January 08, 2013, 12:51:49 AM
Wow. I can't say I've ever, ever experienced any of that in game and I'm sorry if anyone else ever has. That's got to be absolutely poopy.

And player complaint worthy.

I've seen similiar things a few times. As a male character I've had people (male and female, actually) act shocked when I exhibited no sense of chivalry regarding females. Actually with that particular character I seemed to run into the 'females are dainty/males are chivalrous' people a lot. With past characters I'd see it once or twice, act like the person is speaking crazy-talk and everyone in the room would either ignore it or back me up. With this particular character I've actually had everyone in a tavern (think it was three or four other characters) try to explain to my character why you needed to be more delicate with woman-folk around. And women were specified, it wasn't just dainty characters.

Think that was a year ago or so, and I haven't really seen it at all in the past six months so I'm hoping it's just some sort of statistical outlier. I actually think threads like this help a little, as much as people that have been playing a while hate seeing this come up all the time. Some players read the GDB a lot more avidly than they sift through the documentation.

As a side note: Since this sort of thing does bug me a little more than the average gaff, I usually write character backgrounds to include a lot of VNPCs that give me the chance to randomly throw out stories of people in my character's life that exhibit Earth-non-standard gender roles, especially if my character exhibits a lot of traditionally gendered behavior themselves.

I think if anything happens to your PC that you think was sexist, you should file a player complaint instead of vague booking about it on the GDB.

This is not limited to sexism though. I feel this way if you've just suffered what you think was a twinkish death. Or you think there are too many gickers in the game. Or you think someone was spam foraging, or you think someone went too far without asking for consent ... Ect ect ect.

If there's anything I've learned in Armageddon, it's that you can pretty much justify anything with a character's background, even when it does contradict documentation - it's generally why when I see sexism, elves riding, or half-giants using "me" in place of "I", I try to react to it ICLY rather than making the assumption it's an OOC issue. It's my opinion that the only time it becomes an issue is when people do these things without being aware that it's going against documentation or the view point of your average Zalanthas inhabitant, and doing so without some sort of valid reason for their character.

Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on January 08, 2013, 05:24:45 AM
It's not current, a complaint was filed.

This is where I would leave it. I'm of the opinion that if enough reports surface among staff in a time period, then staff will make a post announcing that its a widespread problem in need of correction.

I don't like threads like these because I feel like they take outlandishly uncommon occurrences and frame them as though they're systemic problems within the player base.

Don't talk about stuff that happened with your PCs within the past 6 months.  Especially when you say that is what happened.  This thread is now locked and moderated.

Additionally, no, an official player complaint wasn't filed about that situation, and it was much less dramatic (and much more recent) than indicated here, and there was far more to it than you're implying, which is another reason why it shouldn't be anywhere near the discussion board (apart from the usual reasons).