A world without sexism confuses and angers me.

[Bast]

My point on the whore thing is whores are not glamour. They have nasty STD's are generally covered in sores . Being a concubine on Arm is not being a whore. Your the pleasure toy to ONE noble. Who would likely have you killed for embarrassing them if they found out you had other lovers. Its actually a high station that puts you up on the social ladder. It is in the Docs.

http://www.armageddon.org/general/ranktable.html

This off the topic of sexism but Concubine as not courtisane. Some how people get eastern culture and western culture all confused and it drives me insane. If I see someone dressed pretty without shit all over them I assume they are someone important. Not a common street walker that gets paid 20 sids -if- they are lucky to let a breed take them in a back alley. I do not understand where this, oh your dressed rich means your a whore? In what magically world do the vast majority of whores make enough money that they clade themselves in the equivalent gucci and prada?

[AmandaGreathouse]

My point on the whore thing is whores are not glamour. They have nasty STD's are generally covered in sores . Being a concubine on Arm is not being a whore. Your the pleasure to ONE noble. Its actually a high station that puts you up on the social ladder. It is in the Docs.

http://www.armageddon.org/general/ranktable.html

This off the topic of sexism but Concubine as not courtisane. Some how people get eastern culture and western culture all confused and it drives me insane. If I see someone dressed pretty without shit all over them I assume they are someone important. Not a common street walker that gets paid 20 sids -if- they are lucky to let a breed take them in a back alley. I do not understand where this, oh your dressed rich means your a whore? In what magically world do the vast majority of whores make enough money that they clade themselves in the equivalent gucci and prada?

Thank you, that's kind of my point. I think making someone that looks and dresses average to well shouldn't mean you're automatically assumed to be a whore. If anything, I would think from most of the npc representations I've seen... you'd look much different than that as an in-game whore. Maybe that's just me, but I feel like you and I are maybe on the same page here, Bast?

[Rhyden]

I too played a male whore once circa 2008-09? (http://www.armageddon.org/original/showSubmission.php?submission=522)

He was rejected left and right by women, and the log ^ is one of the only "clients" he ever got (who were playing a practical joke and he had to beat up for his money)

So why should my character have to be female to be a successful whore, guys?

[AmandaGreathouse]

If he plied his trade in Tuluk... then I believe you were the one I ran into, and if so, well-played.

[Patuk]

My point on the whore thing is whores are not glamour. They have nasty STD's are generally covered in sores . Being a concubine on Arm is not being a whore. Your the pleasure toy to ONE noble. Who would likely have you killed for embarrassing them if they found out you had other lovers. Its actually a high station that puts you up on the social ladder. It is in the Docs.

http://www.armageddon.org/general/ranktable.html

This off the topic of sexism but Concubine as not courtisane. Some how people get eastern culture and western culture all confused and it drives me insane. If I see someone dressed pretty without shit all over them I assume they are someone important. Not a common street walker that gets paid 20 sids -if- they are lucky to let a breed take them in a back alley. I do not understand where this, oh your dressed rich means your a whore? In what magically world do the vast majority of whores make enough money that they clade themselves in the equivalent gucci and prada?

You just named concubines. You answered your own question.

There's two kinds of people who care about their appearance: those who have something to represent, and those who make money off of it. Noble houses and the alike might clad their people in expensive clothes and jewelry, seeing as they have a reputation to keep. They pour enormous amounts of money into it, simply for the sakes of them being important and rich and wishing to show it. When you have nobody to represent and yet walk in expensive clothes and ornaments, you're either someone who is -really- awfully bad at managing their money, or you're someone trying to catch clients with a lot of cash.

[LauraMars]

The one time I ran into a male whore, I hired him.  I faded.  NBD.  Played plenty of females, and the only time anybody ever asked if I was a prostitute was when I was actually playing a prostitute.

If someone HAD called one of my other characters a whore though, I wouldn't be offended in real life, because Zalanthas is full of gritty characters and whores, and also it's a video game.  My character might have been offended, or might not have been, depending on the character.  If it was something that happened in real life though I might be offended.

BTW, I don't know what people think of when they hear the words "male whore" but the ones I've seen in game have never appealed to me as a female.  With the exception of the man with glistening muscles (<3) of course.  If guys are looking for tips on how to make their sexual soliciting more appealing, this is just an opinion from a red-blooded female: Where are all the half-naked, muscular dudestitutes?  Give me more shirtless, flexing, muscle-bound manwhores.  I'll take Laurentide or Gage Gritshaw over a silk-clad hidden magicker whore any day of the week.  Keep your perfumed hankies and soft hands for your Kadian family member app.  

Just my opinion, naturally - everyone can play what and who they want.

[Desertman]

I do not see how there could be any harm in retroactively making the Jihaen and Lirathan orders non-sex discriminating.

I personally always imagined this was a throw back from Dune.

And that is all I'm going to say because to say more would give too much away.

[ShaLeah]

My point on the whore thing is whores are not glamour. They have nasty STD's are generally covered in sores . Being a concubine on Arm is not being a whore.

I don't agree with the whole whores in sores trademark. If all whores had sores there wouldn't be a GMH marketing them. The whore NPCs I've seen in game do NOT have sore, they're clean...ish. I haven't seen rinthi whores though since I haven't played in there but I can only imagine that maybe, since lots of rinthers are starving,filthy and covered in sores, that maybe their hoochiemommas could be oozing some shiznit.

I've noticed a lack of whore love, that's oocly driven me thinks.

[Zoan]

Score one for the ladies.

[A Large Bag]

I do not see how there could be any harm in retroactively making the Jihaen and Lirathan orders non-sex discriminating.

I've always thought this. I think there should be males and females of both orders to stay in line with the sexism doesn't exist thing. I know sexism doesn't have anything to do with the orders being as they are but it still creates a symbol of separation between them and I don't think it should be that way.

[Narf]

I too played a male whore once circa 2008-09? (http://www.armageddon.org/original/showSubmission.php?submission=522)

He was rejected left and right by women, and the log ^ is one of the only "clients" he ever got (who were playing a practical joke and he had to beat up for his money)

So why should my character have to be female to be a successful whore, guys?

I read that log way back when it was submitted, that was awesome!

Awwwww, that bums me out that it didn't work out for you. I woulda hired you if I'd been playing that year! I was on hiatus though I think

[Narf]

BTW, I don't know what people think of when they hear the words "male whore" but the ones I've seen in game have never appealed to me as a female.  With the exception of the man with glistening muscles (<3) of course.  If guys are looking for tips on how to make their sexual soliciting more appealing, this is just an opinion from a red-blooded female: Where are all the half-naked, muscular dudestitutes?  Give me more shirtless, flexing, muscle-bound manwhores.  I'll take Laurentide or Gage Gritshaw over a silk-clad hidden magicker whore any day of the week.  Keep your perfumed hankies and soft hands for your Kadian family member app.  

Just my opinion, naturally - everyone can play what and who they want.

Seems staff had the same opinion. Al lot of NPC/VNPC male whores and strippers look like that, even in the Gaj.

[Iiyola]

BTW, I don't know what people think of when they hear the words "male whore" but the ones I've seen in game have never appealed to me as a female.  With the exception of the man with glistening muscles (<3) of course.  If guys are looking for tips on how to make their sexual soliciting more appealing, this is just an opinion from a red-blooded female: Where are all the half-naked, muscular dudestitutes?  Give me more shirtless, flexing, muscle-bound manwhores.  I'll take Laurentide or Gage Gritshaw over a silk-clad hidden magicker whore any day of the week.  Keep your perfumed hankies and soft hands for your Kadian family member app. 

Just my opinion, naturally - everyone can play what and who they want.

Seems staff had the same opinion. Al lot of NPC/VNPC male whores and strippers look like that, even in the Gaj.

Including the dwarven strippers.

[LauraMars]

There's male strippers in the Gaj now?

I've been away for longer than I thought.

[Is Friday]

There's male strippers in the Gaj now?

I've been away for longer than I thought.

No, there's no male strippers in the Gaj. There are only male whores in the Gaj.

This aint no krathdamn dirty noodle-doodled Tuluki bar we're talkin bout here, Malik. This here's a 'naki bar, and at 'naki bars, the half-naked men don't wiggle their sausages at you subtly for sids. If you wanna gristly sausage in the Gaj, you can have it one of two ways. Neither of them ways involves pants.

[Eurynomos]

Let's agree that some people think the separation of Lirathans and Jihaens by sex is in fact sexist. There is no need to discuss the finer, more IC points of their differences on the GDB. I've edited some posts that hinted too strongly. Thanks!

[boog]

Maybe I just suck at flirting and swaggering, but my male whore had trouble finding, no matter which side of the fence he was swinging at.

I've lost my mojo apparently, because none of my characters, male or female, get much of any action, whores or not.

Since when did sexism mean whoring anyway?! I'm giggling that this thread turned into "whores" and "templars".

[musashi]

I guess those are supposed to be the two easiest to spot examples of it?

I dunno. I would prefer the Jihaen and Lirathan Orders were not separated by gender, but it doesn't drive a knife through my heart that they aren't.

The whole whore thing I just draw a massive blank on. Never seen it IG.

I think we're very good at not being sexist.

[spicemustflow]

Since when did sexism mean whoring anyway?! I'm giggling that this thread turned into "whores" and "templars".

Whores & templars sounds like a naughty Zalanthan board game.

[Suhuy]

I don't think it's that big of a deal that the warrior class of templars in Tuluk happen to be male and the non-combatative class of templars are female.

A lack of sexism does not mean that things have to be a certain way 100% across the board. So the male templars of Tuluk are the warriors and the female templars are .. not. Big whoop. Female players certainly aren't prevented from playing combatative roles. Nor are they restricted from playing warrior-like templars - there is always Allanak, after all.

I personally like the gender assignments for Tuluk's templars. I think it provides a healthy challenge against the more stereotypical notions of a society without sexism. A simpleton who writes a fantasy novel taking place in a world without sexism would create a setting with a very predictable, cookie-cutter, Xena Warrior Princess-type of image. Arm, on the other hand, says that just because a world has full gender equality, doesn't mean there might not exist a place where the men happen to be the warriors and the females do.. other.. things. In another part of Zalanthas the reverse could be true, but this is how they happen to roll in Tuluk.

[Desertman]

I don't think I have ever seen anyone in Arm actually do anything "sexist". By that I mean I don't think I have seen anyone treat anyone a certain way based strictly on their gender. I've never seen anyone tell a muscle-bound she-beast, "You have to make me a sandwhich because you have a vag!", and I've never seen anyone tell a dainty foppish guy in game, "You have to do the hunting and the providing because you have a weiner!"

Have I seen a lot of guys treat the dainty little f-me pc's the same way men treat dainty women in the princess fairytale stories? Yes. But I think that has a lot more to do with the fact we see so many dainty little f-me pc's and not so many gruff rugged hardass muscle-beast female pc's. If you make, "The dainty, diamond-eyed girl", you can expect me to treat you much differently than I treat, "The war-scarred, hefty woman".

I treat big gruff muscle-beast ladies the same way I treat big gruff muscle-beast men in game. The same goes for foppish little frail dudes and girlies.

It isn't my fault there happens to be a lot more of one than the other typically.

I would get all rightous and say, "So you girls should stop playing so many "typical" girly girls!", but at the same time, I see no appeal in playing a foppish dainty little dude either. So I understand why it happens.

I feel there is a certain amount of "sexism" in the game because for the most part I see us writing our characters in sexist ways.

My opinion anyhow.

[boog]

I have to agree about how well we as a community of roleplayers do in regards to sexism. No one has ever said to a character of mine that they can't do or be something they desire because they're one gender or another.

I have had my plain Jane characters pigeon-holed and like, had things assumed about them (about their physical appearance of all things, because I didn't describe how big or small their titties were in an mdesc though I said they had 'slender feminine curves' or something like that), but that was only once in game and was a really long time ago.

But, anyway. Yes. I'd say we do pretty well not discriminating against characters in game because of sex. Now, on the GDB, that's a whole 'nother thing.

[Barzalene]

It doesn't really matter if girls don't want to hire male whores that much, does it?  Or even that male players are more likely than female players to hire prostitutes.  I think it's stupid to infer that female players are doing something wrong by being uninterested in hiring male whores, and I also think it's stupid to infer that male players are doing something wrong by wanting to hire female whores.

The point is that nobody is stopping men from becoming whores if they want to play that role.  

And, no one is stopping women from not becoming whores if they don't want to play that role. Just, if you're hawt and emote sexy, sometimes you may get asked.

You are wise beyond your maklar.

I don't think that being asked is the problem. The problem is being browbeaten upon saying no. I played a pc who said no and was lectured and cajoled by 6 people at a bar . She didn't say eww, just no. Then got a lecture about how there was noting wrong with it for 15 minutes.

I think that is not an ic issue, but a player issue. People taking any opportunity to be self-congratulatory and unkind. Is it sexist? Hard to say. Often it feels like it, but it is possible to be a jerk without being sexist.

[AmandaGreathouse]

It doesn't really matter if girls don't want to hire male whores that much, does it?  Or even that male players are more likely than female players to hire prostitutes.  I think it's stupid to infer that female players are doing something wrong by being uninterested in hiring male whores, and I also think it's stupid to infer that male players are doing something wrong by wanting to hire female whores.

The point is that nobody is stopping men from becoming whores if they want to play that role. 

And, no one is stopping women from not becoming whores if they don't want to play that role. Just, if you're hawt and emote sexy, sometimes you may get asked.

You are wise beyond your maklar.

I don't think that being asked is the problem. The problem is being browbeaten upon saying no. I played a pc who said no and was lectured and cajoled by 6 people at a bar . She didn't say eww, just no. Then got a lecture about how there was noting wrong with it for 15 minutes.

I think that is not an ic issue, but a player issue. People taking any opportunity to be self-congratulatory and unkind. Is it sexist? Hard to say. Often it feels like it, but it is possible to be a jerk without being sexist.

Well put. As I've said before, what I -have- seen in game, I don't really think is meant to be sexist, it just winds up coming across that way on some occasions. I'm used to attractive pcs being hit on, I just... dealt with a series of small events, about 13, on one character that were, separately, fairly innocuous, but put together... wound up with an experience (with that particular pc) that was EXTREMELY negative.

[Narf]

Wow. I can't say I've ever, ever experienced any of that in game and I'm sorry if anyone else ever has. That's got to be absolutely poopy.

And player complaint worthy.

I've seen similiar things a few times. As a male character I've had people (male and female, actually) act shocked when I exhibited no sense of chivalry regarding females. Actually with that particular character I seemed to run into the 'females are dainty/males are chivalrous' people a lot. With past characters I'd see it once or twice, act like the person is speaking crazy-talk and everyone in the room would either ignore it or back me up. With this particular character I've actually had everyone in a tavern (think it was three or four other characters) try to explain to my character why you needed to be more delicate with woman-folk around. And women were specified, it wasn't just dainty characters.

Think that was a year ago or so, and I haven't really seen it at all in the past six months so I'm hoping it's just some sort of statistical outlier. I actually think threads like this help a little, as much as people that have been playing a while hate seeing this come up all the time. Some players read the GDB a lot more avidly than they sift through the documentation.

As a side note: Since this sort of thing does bug me a little more than the average gaff, I usually write character backgrounds to include a lot of VNPCs that give me the chance to randomly throw out stories of people in my character's life that exhibit Earth-non-standard gender roles, especially if my character exhibits a lot of traditionally gendered behavior themselves.