A world without sexism confuses and angers me.

[Lizzie]

Yeah, I can't tell you the number of times I've had pcs ask if my pcs were whores, even if they weren't dressed provocatively or trying to get any, just because they were fairly attractive. Meh.

I can't tell you the number of "attractive" female PCs who acted totally surprised when someone asked if they were whores. I mean - what -would- a commoner think, of someone with...

glisteningly clean golden blonde hair that ends at her well-rounded buttocks...
slender, but not emaciated, displaying all the proper proportions of womanly womanliness...
clean, except for a tiny smudge on her nose
flawless skin, except for a tiny scar on her chin
wearing a kadian-made generic nothing-special dress, kadian-made nothing-special slippers, kurac-made nothing-special cloak, and a blossom in her hair
Who is not employed by either Kadius or Kurac...not wearing any particular house's livery
Hanging out at the bar

Well heck - she's not a killer - killers would know better than to make it SO easy to grab their butt-long hair and choke them with their own tresses as a makeshift garrot.
Obviously not a shit-cleaner - she's clean, her hair is clean..obviously wealthy enough to afford water to clean herself with -
has obviously not endured a difficult life, so not impoverished, but then, not wearing silk, so not a fancy noble's concubine either.

She might be a burglar. But the if she *isn't* a whore, she should be. She'd make a fortune. Which is why people might ask if she is. To confirm what they suspect is already true. Maybe they're interested in offering her some money in exchange for an hour with such lovely silkiness. Or maybe they're thinking they'd ply her with sids for info on her last "important" customer.

If you make a PC look like they're probably not suitable for "grunge work"..and they're obviously not in a position of wealth or significant influence, then it makes sense people might assume they're selling that lucious body for sids.

Maybe not in the real world, but in a world like Zalanthas where whoring is no more or less a "respectable" job as grebbing, dung-cleaning, salting, mining, cotton-picking..it is a reasonable assumption to make - or at the very least, a reasonable question to ask.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Yeah, unless they have a merchant or bardic type background that would be the equivalent of Zalanthas' lower middle class (if you could say such a thing exists). There's plenty of women with hair that's not that long that still get hit on. I've had maybe 2 or 3 pcs out of about 50 with hair that long. And none of them was a whore.

Should we assume that a clean male pc who's not wearing armor is always a whore?

If not, why assume it with a female?

That's the type of unintentional bleedover of sexism to which I refer.

And yes, if my pc has made no overtures to show any even casual interest, they're probably going to be surprised when you proposition them for sex, with or without sid involved, regardless of how good they look. I think that's only natural if it's pretty much a stranger. Unless they -are- a whore, in which case, they probably would've been expecting it and not be surprised.

And, further, if my pc is NOT a combat type but not a noble, what are they supposed to wear? Kadian clothes mostly, nothing special. Kadian shoes, maybe? Nothing special. Nothing special cloak. Why not a flower in the hair if you happen to pass one? I don't see how -any- of those makes a pc any more likely to be a whore. There are plenty of plenty-slutty looking clothes to pick from. I would think that dressing in -average- clothes with a flower in the hair would be a tipoff that you were... I dunno... average?

And I know of plenty of females in real life that have those same type of slender but busty builds, enough so that... the example line looks pretty average, again.

I wouldn't know about asslength blonde hair that's 'glisteningly clean'.

And why would a trader type pc not want to hang out in a bar?

Actually, given the damn structure of socializing in the game, if you have a city pc at all, where the hell else would you hang out if you are unclanned and don't want to sit in your apartment?

Again, the tavern seems pretty much average.

[Bluefae]

Should we assume that a clean male pc who's not wearing armor is always a whore?

     Krath, I wish this was the case.  Kismetic, you have your next assignment!  *tehe*

[Lizzie]

Amanda - the fact that my response offends you, is a pretty blatant bleedover of real-world sexism.

It is NOT offensive, in the world of Zalanthas, for a PC to wonder if another PC is a whore. If you are offended by it, then that's your real-world perception creeping into the game.

I used the Kadian clothing to indicate that your character probably isn't a crafter. Because if she was a clothing crafter, she -might- have made her clothing. Etc. etc. etc. (insert item that is only craftable if you're a member of that clan here) If she was a jeweler, she -might- have made her jewelry. I have seen people who have *obviously* NOT made anything on their person...which indicates a lower likelihood that the person is a crafter...notice the word "lower" and the word "likelihood" - I didn't say "definitely not a crafter."

Also, saying "it's easy to assume this is possible" is not the same as saying "we must all assume this is always true."

You're getting pretty emotional about this, and tossing things into the mix that you didn't claim was your concern. You expressed a specific concern. I responded to that specific concern. If you have OTHER concerns (which apparently you do), then hey - express them. But my response had nothing to do with those new concerns of yours.

[Delirium]

One nitpick; we shouldn't let OOC knowledge of crafted vs uncrafted affect our IC assumptions.

[Lizzie]

One nitpick; we shouldn't let OOC knowledge of crafted vs uncrafted affect our IC assumptions.

That's why I specified that they were made by specific clans.. people ICly DO know that Kadius makes certain articles of clothing. Whether or not they're codedly craftable, our -characters- wouldn't know. But the point, was that certain things -are- clan-made. Craftable or not. And the fact that they are clan-made is known, ICly. Thus - I gave our hypothetical PC with the unknown profession, generic, but clan-made clothing. To rule out the *likelihood* that she is a crafter of clothing. Most people living in cities would have at least been IN the shops in the marketplaces, and would know "oh yeah - Kadius makes those." Or "That's definitely something Salarr has in stock every week. Or "Oh yes, everyone knows Kurac makes those."

That's not OOC knowledge, it's knowledge that our characters are likely to have, if they have spent a reasonable amount of time in city markets.

But as you said - it's a nitpick. And it's really not germaine to the topic.

[Zoan]

I believe we were discussing boobs? We should continue with that.

[Fredd]

Yeah, I can't tell you the number of times I've had pcs ask if my pcs were whores, even if they weren't dressed provocatively or trying to get any, just because they were fairly attractive. Meh.

I can't tell you the number of "attractive" female PCs who acted totally surprised when someone asked if they were whores. I mean - what -would- a commoner think, of someone with...

glisteningly clean golden blonde hair that ends at her well-rounded buttocks...
slender, but not emaciated, displaying all the proper proportions of womanly womanliness...
clean, except for a tiny smudge on her nose
flawless skin, except for a tiny scar on her chin
wearing a kadian-made generic nothing-special dress, kadian-made nothing-special slippers, kurac-made nothing-special cloak, and a blossom in her hair
Who is not employed by either Kadius or Kurac...not wearing any particular house's livery
Hanging out at the bar

Well heck - she's not a killer - killers would know better than to make it SO easy to grab their butt-long hair and choke them with their own tresses as a makeshift garrot.
Obviously not a shit-cleaner - she's clean, her hair is clean..obviously wealthy enough to afford water to clean herself with -
has obviously not endured a difficult life, so not impoverished, but then, not wearing silk, so not a fancy noble's concubine either.

She might be a burglar. But the if she *isn't* a whore, she should be. She'd make a fortune. Which is why people might ask if she is. To confirm what they suspect is already true. Maybe they're interested in offering her some money in exchange for an hour with such lovely silkiness. Or maybe they're thinking they'd ply her with sids for info on her last "important" customer.

If you make a PC look like they're probably not suitable for "grunge work"..and they're obviously not in a position of wealth or significant influence, then it makes sense people might assume they're selling that lucious body for sids.

Maybe not in the real world, but in a world like Zalanthas where whoring is no more or less a "respectable" job as grebbing, dung-cleaning, salting, mining, cotton-picking..it is a reasonable assumption to make - or at the very least, a reasonable question to ask.

In fact, in Allanak, it's considered a very respectable position, if you have the looks and skill. So i could easilly see it not being sexism.

Let's not forget Male whores. I have run into several over the years, played decently well.

[musashi]

The man with glistening muscles. Mmm mmm good.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Maybe I should clarify:

It annoys the fuck out of me OOCly.

Not because it's particularly wrong, but because I get so fucking tired of dealing with things like that, Lizzie.

I know it's a stretch, but a lot of people like to go more than a day or two when they can without everything being about their genitals.

It offends me not because 'whoring is wrong', but because it reminds me of the two year old constantly yanking at your skirt going 'Mommy mommy mommy mommy mama mama mama mama', until you snap and scream 'WHATTTTT?!?'


Edit to add: And you know, it really has nothing to do with attractiveness or tit size or blah blah blah. You know the only time I've -not- been propositioned as whore with a female pc who's lived a week or longer of RL time has been when I played a gemmed breed.

You shouldn't have to play someone who is social suicide to even talk to in order not to be picked up as a whore.

[Beethoven]

Playing male bisexuals is what Beethovens do best.

[Lizzie]

Maybe I should clarify:

It annoys the fuck out of me OOCly.

Not because it's particularly wrong, but because I get so fucking tired of dealing with things like that, Lizzie.

I know it's a stretch, but a lot of people like to go more than a day or two when they can without everything being about their genitals.

It offends me not because 'whoring is wrong', but because it reminds me of the two year old constantly yanking at your skirt going 'Mommy mommy mommy mommy mama mama mama mama', until you snap and scream 'WHATTTTT?!?'

Ah. Well then that has nothing to do with gender equality (which is the topic). That's more of a generic sexuality-based pet peeve. I agree, it gets annoying, but I've only had one of my characters accused of being a whore. The whole "if we're not having sex, we should talk about it, or make jokes about it, or make lewd gestures to hint about it, or imply it, or make vague references to it, because that's what this MUD is all about" thing - is tiring, overdone, and childish. It's just as bad, to me, as when you sit in a room where nobles and/or templars and/or "high ranking" important people are talking, and you hear them discussing blood and gore in polite terms. All the freaking time. "Oh yes, we prefer our dead elf fried, with drawn escru butter." "Yes, magickers are always best when their heads are severed at an exact 90-degree angle. I find obsidian to be the appropriate blade - the blood bubbles nicely with it."

Really though - if you don't want to hear people accusing -your- characters specifically of being a whore - try looking at the similiarities with those characters you make, and try using different descriptive terms. Even changing "a windswept tousle" into "unruly curls" can give less of a perception of "hello this character exists for sex" and more of a "this character is a typical commoner who happened to eat a full meal this week, and had her monthly bath just yesterday."

It's the common Roger Rabbit syndrome:
Jessica Rabbit: You don't know how hard it is being a woman looking the way I do.
Eddie Valiant: You don't know how hard it is being a man looking at a woman looking the way you do.
Jessica Rabbit: I'm not bad. I'm just drawn that way.

Don't draw them that way, if it bothers you that much

Edited because I misspelled tousle. I think I still misspelled it but it looks better than tossle, which I know was wrong.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Ah. Well then that has nothing to do with gender equality (which is the topic).


It's the common Roger Rabbit syndrome:
Jessica Rabbit: You don't know how hard it is being a woman looking the way I do.
Eddie Valiant: You don't know how hard it is being a man looking at a woman looking the way you do.
Jessica Rabbit: I'm not bad. I'm just drawn that way.

Don't draw them that way, if it bothers you that much

Edited because I misspelled tousle. I think I still misspelled it but it looks better than tossle, which I know was wrong.

1. Yes, it is. I've never heard of a single male pc having this problem, or the player of a male pc having shit like that to deal with, and since even according to you who play people who are clearly different than mine, you get hit on often enough as well or picked up as a whore the same, and for what? Clearly the pcs are nothing alike, must be because they're female, yeah?

2. I don't draw my pcs 'any one way', it doesn't matter if it's a 13 year old pc with antbite tits or a 25 year old with a huge chest, it still happens all the damn time.

3. Ever occur to you that pcs whose hair is a 'windswept tousle' might be because they are outside in the wind and don't comb it? Whether a whiran or someone who just travels often.

4. Would it be the same issue if a male pc's hair was in a 'windswept tousle'? Again, no. Again, pointing to this being entirely about gender.

Edit to add:
And, what's more, I've never seen, met, or heard of any pc who was ever around 'just to mudsex'. The closest I ever saw to that was a gypsy from 08-09 that I'm sure many know of, who has a name that rhymes with 'nosy'. And even then, I'm sure that's not the case.

I should not have to eliminate certain words from the description of what a character looks like to keep their player from thinking my pc is just out for sex. How much of an issue is it that the general assumption is they are out for sex unless their mdesc -doesn't- use certain words, or they -don't- dress a certain way? To me, it's a bigger issue as time goes on, because I get really tired of the constant presumption. I wish that other -players- would give me the benefit of the doubt, or at least assume that just because I as a player wrote what the character looks like and they aren't ugly, that I'm not making a pc to be a whore or constantly indulge in mudsex.

I'm married. I get laid enough IRL. I don't want or need to spend the majority of my time in-game fucking. And I shouldn't have to do some kind of word choice rain dance with hideous fucking chud pcs to avoid it, either. I don't think that's fair OR realistic, and it's -certainly- not a good rubric of gender equality when male pcs aren't held to the same standards.

[Lizzie]

You've never heard of a male having this problem, because it isn't usually considered a "problem" when it happens to males. I've seen it happen plenty to male PCs who are depicted as physically attractive, or use certain phrases in their mdescs (such as - "flowing <insert color> hair" or "tapered waist" or "muscular arms", for example, and certainly not exclusive). Happens all the time, in fact. You just don't get many males complaining about it. I don't see them getting confused for whores, but I -do- see people assuming they want a "relationship" - whether that's for mudsex, or fading, but regardless, an IC mating situation.

You also are misreading what I said. Again. I was very specific. I said I have had someone confuse ONE of my characters for a whore. One. Once. Never before, never after.

As for getting picked up on - I've observed that _anyone_ with a well-written mdesc is likely to get hit on ICly, more often than someone with a description written poorly, or formatted incorrectly, or filled with typos or misspellings. It doesn't matter if they're male or female. That's not a gender bias. That's a writing bias. I am not the best writer, but I like to think I'm pretty good at it. I got hit on when I played a male character too, and he wasn't sexy at all. He was young, naive, boyish and unsophisticated and shy, and mostly not interested in sex. He was practically irresistable, and I attribute it to the fact that I wrote his description well. Couldn't have been his personality, unless there's a whole lot of people in Arm portraying their characters as women who want to get in bed with boys. Which - to me - is pretty creepy.

The point of the post is about perception Amanda. It doesn't matter what you intend with your character. It doesn't matter whether or not your character does, or does not, exist for sex. What matters is how other people perceive your character, and how you perceive other characters. Regardless of the intention. If they are written using certain terms, phrases, and sometimes even words, the reader of those words is going to perceive something specific. They will have a picture in their head, of what they -think- they are reading. Even if that picture is completely different from what you picture in YOUR head.

The written word is all we have in Armageddon to depict what we want people to perceive. If you continue to get a certain perception from so many readers, with so many of your characters, then you have to start looking at what YOU are doing, that is causing this perception.

[Jeshin]

I'd like to chime in on Lizzie's point... Yes some male PCs are waylaid by women who would like to tie them to a bed. Yes literally tie to the bed. The only difference is not many people ask if male PCs want to be paid for their sexy bodies  (AKA: Not many people ask if male PCs are whores)

[Lizzie]

I'd like to chime in on Lizzie's point... Yes some male PCs are waylaid by women who would like to tie them to a bed. Yes literally tie to the bed. The only difference is not many people ask if male PCs want to be paid for their sexy bodies  (AKA: Not many people ask if male PCs are whores)

Well I'd say, in a world like Zalanthas, that would be an insult to the males. Poor things, no one thinks they're worth paying for

[flurry]

The only difference is not many people ask if male PCs want to be paid for their sexy bodies  (AKA: Not many people ask if male PCs are whores)

If only female characters tend to be mistaken for whores (which seems to be the case), it's hard to see that as anything over than the result of real-life gender attitudes being brought into the game. It's as if a prostitute is considered one of a few expected archetypes for female characters but not so for male characters.

[Lizzie]

The only difference is not many people ask if male PCs want to be paid for their sexy bodies  (AKA: Not many people ask if male PCs are whores)

If only female characters tend to be mistaken for whores (which seems to be the case), it's hard to see that as anything over than the result of real-life gender attitudes being brought into the game. It's as if a prostitute is considered one of a few expected archetypes for female characters but not so for male characters.

Well then, be the change you want to see. Proposition your local attractive male PC. Start a new trend. There's nothing stopping anyone from doing it.

[Fredd]

Also Amanda, I've seen men blatantly try to talk social-suicides into sex. Plenty of times. i think women in Zalanthas should stab men that give unwanted advances. Across the board, at all times.

[AmandaGreathouse]

The only difference is not many people ask if male PCs want to be paid for their sexy bodies  (AKA: Not many people ask if male PCs are whores)

If only female characters tend to be mistaken for whores (which seems to be the case), it's hard to see that as anything over than the result of real-life gender attitudes being brought into the game. It's as if a prostitute is considered one of a few expected archetypes for female characters but not so for male characters.

THANK YOU!

Flurry just put it very concisely.

Yes, some men in game are sexualized. But the VAST MAJORITY of women are. It is EXPECTED of women. -THAT- is the part that is sexism bleeding over. THAT is the part I would like to see stop happening so damn lopsidedly.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Also Amanda, I've seen men blatantly try to talk social-suicides into sex. Plenty of times. i think women in Zalanthas should stab men that give unwanted advances. Across the board, at all times.

Kill the crim code in taverns and I promise I'll start.

[AmandaGreathouse]

The only difference is not many people ask if male PCs want to be paid for their sexy bodies  (AKA: Not many people ask if male PCs are whores)

If only female characters tend to be mistaken for whores (which seems to be the case), it's hard to see that as anything over than the result of real-life gender attitudes being brought into the game. It's as if a prostitute is considered one of a few expected archetypes for female characters but not so for male characters.

Well then, be the change you want to see. Proposition your local attractive male PC. Start a new trend. There's nothing stopping anyone from doing it.

I don't particularly want to see it more with male pcs. I would like to see it stop being EXPECTED of female pcs.

[i can haz mantis]

I've been playing Arm for several years and I have seen quite a few male whores in my time... some very obvious that you didn't need to ask if they were, some not so obvious but still give you that certain feeling about them, some hiding it quite well. So on this, I have to disagree.

[AmandaGreathouse]

That's good. How about in the last 2 years?

I've seen 1 in the 5 years I've been playing, in like 2009, and he did really poorly. For some reason, nobody just assumed he was a whore. Funny, that.

I'm sure I've missed some,  but that is not everyone's experience. Not by far.

[williamson]

The Tuluk Templarate is divided into two orders: the Lirathan Order, comprised solely of women clothed in white; and the Jihaen Order, a martial brotherhood wearing armor embossed with the red moon, Jihae.

I've always seen dividing the templarate by gender as a form of sexism. Anyone agree? Maybe this documentation is old, I haven't played a PC is Tuluk since 2006. If it's still accurate, it would seem sexism does exist IC.