Gender Roles on Zalanthas -- RP nuances

[Aleksandr]

If a person wants to feel chivalrous and decides to protect the females ... then take it as your character would. Some Females would find it impressive and swoon, some females would find it idiotic, and some females would calculate it that this is the guy's method of getting laid.

Rather than discouraging this, I'd encourage more females to act chivalrous and go out to try and protect the weak males... for all the same reasons as we normally see.

Most of the things I see complaints about, I don't see as such a problem, except that I personally have never seen female PCs going out and doing the same thing. Whats stopping them from doing it?

[Pale Horse]

If a person wants to feel chivalrous and decides to protect the females ... then take it as your character would. Some Females would find it impressive and swoon, some females would find it idiotic, and some females would calculate it that this is the guy's method of getting laid.

Rather than discouraging this, I'd encourage more females to act chivalrous and go out to try and protect the weak males... for all the same reasons as we normally see.

Most of the things I see complaints about, I don't see as such a problem, except that I personally have never seen female PCs going out and doing the same thing. Whats stopping them from doing it?

The fact that so many males seem to be doing it for them?  Why go through all the hassle when you can just send your 'knight-errant' out to get the job done? 

[Rairen]

If a person wants to feel chivalrous and decides to protect the females ... then take it as your character would. Some Females would find it impressive and swoon, some females would find it idiotic, and some females would calculate it that this is the guy's method of getting laid.

Rather than discouraging this, I'd encourage more females to act chivalrous and go out to try and protect the weak males... for all the same reasons as we normally see.

Most of the things I see complaints about, I don't see as such a problem, except that I personally have never seen female PCs going out and doing the same thing. Whats stopping them from doing it?

The fact that so many males seem to be doing it for them?  Why go through all the hassle when you can just send your 'knight-errant' out to get the job done? 

"Why should I put myself on the line for that loser?  If he wants to do something for me for free, more power to him."  Traditional gender roles aren't all about being weak and defenseless.   

[Decameron]

<While watching the red-cloaked man get placed along the corpses of Meleth Circle>

With a hint of regret in his tone,the obese, double-chinned man says in sirihish:
"I told him. The woman's mouth is the most germ-ridden place, I said. Statistically the most unsafe place for a man to put his penis, I said."

With a soft sigh, adjusting his helmet ovr his brow, the small, slender man says in sirihish,
"Well... now we know."

With a firm nod, the obese, double-chinned man says in sirihish:
"And knowing is half the battle."

[musashi]

I agree with your overall point, ibusoe, though I must admit I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to accomplish. Is this related to your harshness thread somehow?

Probably related to the Male-Female thread. Lots of people say that they don't play the other gender because they don't think they could roleplay it, even though by one of the core rules of the game, men and women are exactly the same. You shouldn't have trouble roleplaying someone of a certain sex compared to the other sex, because in Zalanthas, sex has nothing to do with anything besides sex.

I read a lot of those "I don't trust myself to RP the other sex" comments to mean "Sure, men and women are equal in Zalanthas, but they're not really equal." I refrained from commenting as such in that thread.

I disagree.

I don't think equal means identical, so when someone says a role is too different I don't assume they mean unequal. Check it out ... you can prove it with math.

1+4=5
3+2=5

equal. But different.

You wrote 5 = 5 twice.

Yep. In two different ways.

Apology accepted 

[hyzhenhok]

I agree with your overall point, ibusoe, though I must admit I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to accomplish. Is this related to your harshness thread somehow?

Probably related to the Male-Female thread. Lots of people say that they don't play the other gender because they don't think they could roleplay it, even though by one of the core rules of the game, men and women are exactly the same. You shouldn't have trouble roleplaying someone of a certain sex compared to the other sex, because in Zalanthas, sex has nothing to do with anything besides sex.

I read a lot of those "I don't trust myself to RP the other sex" comments to mean "Sure, men and women are equal in Zalanthas, but they're not really equal." I refrained from commenting as such in that thread.

I disagree.

I don't think equal means identical, so when someone says a role is too different I don't assume they mean unequal. Check it out ... you can prove it with math.

1+4=5
3+2=5

equal. But different.

You wrote 5 = 5 twice.

Yep. In two different ways.

Apology accepted 

Fine. But you'll find that while you usually write 1 + 4, it really wasn't difficult to write 2 + 3, even though you've only written 1 + 4 all your life and didn't think you could understand the nuances of the 2 + 3 variant.

Write up a female character. Join a clan with some cool peeps, play normally but don't reveal who you are. Later, ask them if they could tell it was a dude behind the chick. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

[musashi]

EDIT: Blarg, double post!

[musashi]

I agree with your overall point, ibusoe, though I must admit I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to accomplish. Is this related to your harshness thread somehow?

Probably related to the Male-Female thread. Lots of people say that they don't play the other gender because they don't think they could roleplay it, even though by one of the core rules of the game, men and women are exactly the same. You shouldn't have trouble roleplaying someone of a certain sex compared to the other sex, because in Zalanthas, sex has nothing to do with anything besides sex.

I read a lot of those "I don't trust myself to RP the other sex" comments to mean "Sure, men and women are equal in Zalanthas, but they're not really equal." I refrained from commenting as such in that thread.

I disagree.

I don't think equal means identical, so when someone says a role is too different I don't assume they mean unequal. Check it out ... you can prove it with math.

1+4=5
3+2=5

equal. But different.

You wrote 5 = 5 twice.

Yep. In two different ways.

Apology accepted  

Fine. But you'll find that while you usually write 1 + 4, it really wasn't difficult to write 2 + 3, even though you've only written 1 + 4 all your life and didn't think you could understand the nuances of the 2 + 3 variant.

Write up a female character. Join a clan with some cool peeps, play normally but don't reveal who you are. Later, ask them if they could tell it was a dude behind the chick. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Well, what if I wrote it like this?

64 + 1 = 65

6
E (3x + 1) = 65
k = 2

I'm just messing around anyway man  

Just saying ... sure it's possible for people to RP the other gender well, but for some folks it might seem too confusing or difficult to bother with, and their reason for thinking that does not have to be because they think the other gender is somehow "less" than the one they happen to be IRL. It could be that that their reason is exactly what they said it was: They think the role is too difficult for them to do justice to.

But yes, other folks seem capable of portraying the opposite gender quite well, I've been surprised a few times myself to learn the player on the other end of the internet was not actually the same gender as the character I'd been RP'ing with for months.

[Kankfly]

Honestly, this whole issue is funny.

The main reason why there is such a rule in Armageddon, is to avoid conflicts based on IRL prejudicies (skin color, gender, religion). That is it's one and 'only' purpose. All those finer details, chivalry, manliness, feminine, etc are all "details" that simply do 'not' need to be picked on. If a person wants to feel chivalrous and decides to protect the females ... then take it as your character would. Some Females would find it impressive and swoon, some females would find it idiotic, and some females would calculate it that this is the guy's method of getting laid. The point is ... that it's irrelevent. Much like the raping issue, one of it's main reason for the rule's existence is to avoid certain serious issues of the IRL.

If you play a woman, and you see a male who clearly shows he thinks of females as weak ... then pummel him into a bloody pulp or ... ignore him. I do not think it's worth correcting the issue via an OOC medium, for overral ... the whole "reason" for the gender equality role is in essence ... OOC.

Right.

So what are we arguing about again?

[Is Friday]

Whenever I played females prior to people knowing I was a male IRL, I was considered to be female IRL--in addition to being treated properly in game and getting prior IC reactions to all my dude/dudette's doings. If you're having issues with people not reacting to you IC, you probably have an issue with consistency. It doesn't matter how you play your male/female roles.

[jhunter]

I find that it's the rp of the person that things surround that determines the reactions of those around them.
So, if you act like a stereotypical male/female, then expect for some others to respond accordingly.
I don't think I've ever seen a female pc that was portrayed as a "Zalanthan female" that was treated otherwise.
On an aside that I feel is somewhat related, I think some people portray homosexual pcs in a very stereotypical way and then get upset when others respond accordingly.
I don't think homosexuals, male or female, would appear much different than straights on Zalanthas, other than what gender they prefer to have sexual relations with.

I'm tired of seeing the "effeminate" (obviously must be gay) man and the "butched" (obviously must be gay) female in the game.

[Bluefae]

     Some great posts thus far.  I really appreciate the thought folks have put into this subject.
    I think Thunnkin's post was dynamite!  Thanks T. for putting that out there.  Your take on SF vice Fantasy expectations was brilliant.
    From my perspective, as an ardent, RL feminist it looks like Musashi and Jhunter have the right of it.  
    First, extrapolation on Jhunter's point:  In actual play, whenever I've run into what seemed like gender-bias, it was quickly corrected on both ends by "Zalanthan female" behavior.  Almost always, the bias has arisen from players that feel new (trouble with basic commands, don't know the game world very well, and so on).  As soon as I've asserted myself IC (in the manner appropriate to the character, but we're mainly talking about the Byn here), I felt the other player respounded in a world-appropriate fashion.  Granted, that reaction can and has varied greatly by character, but I felt like they were reacting to me, and not my persona's gender.
    Now onto Musashi (*laugh*  Sorry, that just doesn't sound right.  ):  By both documentation and hard code, women are absolutely equal to men in every regard.  They fight as hard, cast as well, and learn as quickly.  Moreover, they're just as physically brave and fierce in battle.  In this case though, I really believe equal and identical are not the same thing.  As M. pointed out in a few elegant lines something I was going to belabor for paragraphs, we can arrive at the same destination while taking alternate routes.  I think even in an utterly egalitarian society, it would be possible to see subtle differences in interactional style, different nuances in approach to conflict, and of course, the biggie, differing agendas when it comes to having sex and caring for children.  As I've seen played out with wonderful verisimilitude IG, on fundamental questions of child-rearing and resource-gathering, you can have potential for massive conflict between the sexes if dad isn't on board with helping (I have to laugh when I think about the Zalanthan version of the "dead beat dad" plotline - attempting to collect "child support" can be lethal!).  I eagerly await the reverse, although the defense of "But it isn't mine!" obviously won't work in that situation.  My point here is, we can have our rp cake and eat it too, maintaining complete parity while allowing for the delicious differences between women and men to drive some very entertaining storylines.  

Edited to add:  A hearty "Thank you!" to all the gals and guys who played bad-ass female characters through the years, and made a space for equality to exist, one character at a time.
 

[KankWhisperer]

I tend to think that that that acceptance of exclusive homosexuality is directly proportion to your group's population size.

If you are crammed in the city and there's not enough food/space/water to go around, being completely homosexual is fine. We don't need more of your hairy asses running around.

If your tribe is barely hanging on or has relatively low numbers, then I think it would be frowned onto be exclusively homosexual. You need to be making a few kids to do your duty, even if you don't enjoy it.

I think some characters may be perceived as being sexist when they are merely being protective. I know certain of my characters will protect the weaker fighter regardless of sex. If the female hasn't seen my guy protecting his weaker male buddies then they may think "Oh this guy is not RPing properly, he is protecting me because I am a girly girl." Not so, I just don't want my allies to die, male or female.

On the other hand, I do think that some players are somewhat sexist. But if the female is portraying herself as weakling, and they are valuable to you, why wouldn't you protect them.  Perhaps not enough males choose to play the weakling male.

[ibusoe]

I tend to think that that that acceptance of exclusive homosexuality is directly proportion to your group's population size.

In the real world, yes.  But this is a game.  It's a realistic way, but one of (about a dozen) ways in which the game is somewhat silly is that the genders are equal and sexual minorities are tolerated. 

What you're proposing is a change to the rules.  If you change the rules, that's fine but that's a different topic entirely.

[LoD]

The deck is stacked against people appropriately playing gender roles in Armageddon.

The very nature of the game seems bent toward a more traditionally masculine environment and power structure, partly because the original Staff were predominantly male and the original players were predominantly male.  Even today, the majority of Armageddon players are probably male.  Of those males, it's likely the majority are somewhere between the ages of 17 - 27.  I'd wager that many of those players enjoy roles follow the same escapist path as many others, where it's not uncommon for their characters to be beefy, strong, ruggedly-handsome badass mo-fo's ready to oblige the nearest scrab, longneck, or southie with the sharp end of dirty knife or engage in a sloppy round of drinks espousing their physical prowess, manliness, or skill with a blade.

And while there's nothing wrong with embodying that type of character, it quietly contributes to the void of characters that display the converse of these traits and balance the game world.  And who fills that void?  The void comprised of more subtle, intellectual, crafty, passive, non-physical, nurturing, supporting types that favor achieving power through wealth, status, and influence rather than physical power and strength?  I would suspect some of the male players, and many of the female players.

It's natural for us to be drawn to a character with whom we can identify, and we can identify most easily with a character that conveniently exhibits the same type of gender-specific qualities that we ourselves display or favor.  This can inadvertently create situations where the guys play more masculine roles, the females play more feminine roles, and a handful of people occasionally try to bridge the gap -- though I'd bet they were the exception rather than the rule.  And while there's nothing inherently wrong with that, I worry that it will be an uphill battle to ever achieve an environment where people don't naturally drift toward gender roles in Arm that mirror or largely resemble their own in RL.

We can be frustrated by males being protective hunter-gatherers who enjoy drinking, swapping stories, and settling score with tests of strength or martial prowess as equally as with women being maternal, intelligent, nest-makers who enjoy socializing, gossiping, and building/displaying material wealth as a measure of social status.  I can't really fault them though -- it's somewhat like asking right-handed people to accomplish a task and then ask them why they don't use their left hand more often.

-LoD

PS - I don't mean to offend anyone or push everyone into stereotypes.  I'm talking in broad strokes here, and am certainly aware of many male/female players whose characters don't fall into a traditional masculine/feminine gender role.

[Fredd]

 Males and females are built differant on Zalanthas. but there isnt a stereotype to it, but there diffinately IS  a distiguisigh of sex in many places.

ex: Human tribals. MOST of the tribes are Matriarchal for whichever reason suits them.

Tuluk's split gender templar order is another example.

so i see no problem with this specific thing, i dont see men rushing to "protect" women warriors. in fact, some of my male warriors were protected by women, because he wasnt as ood a fighter as they were.

No the only thing that relates to this post that i have seen in game is the IG joking that someone likes there own gender sexualy ( ie: homosexuality) and reference to it being a bad thing, ot thing to be ashamed of. When the docs state homosexuality is common, and very excepted. (not that i am homosexual, but just pointing it out)

[ibusoe]

The very nature of the game seems bent toward a more traditionally masculine environment and power structure, partly because the original Staff were predominantly male and the original players were predominantly male.  Even today, the majority of Armageddon players are probably male.  Of those males, it's likely the majority are somewhere between the ages of 17 - 27.  I'd wager that many of those players enjoy roles follow the same escapist path as many others, where it's not uncommon for their characters to be beefy, strong, ruggedly-handsome badass mo-fo's ready to oblige the nearest scrab, longneck, or southie with the sharp end of dirty knife or engage in a sloppy round of drinks espousing their physical prowess, manliness, or skill with a blade.

*lots of other good stuff, etc*

Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head.  In fact, I've tried to lobby the idea in the past that we have too many junior players to have a gender equality based world.  Since people weren't really receptive to this, I've switched tactics to try to help existing players better realize what a sexually-equal world might be like, basically the opposite of high school.

[LoD]

Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head.  In fact, I've tried to lobby the idea in the past that we have too many junior players to have a gender equality based world.  Since people weren't really receptive to this, I've switched tactics to try to help existing players better realize what a sexually-equal world might be like, basically the opposite of high school.

I don't think the difficulties all of us face in imagining a sexually-equal world ended with high school, and I wouldn't be too quick to associate a perceived unwillingness or inability to inhabit such a world with immaturity or naivety.  It's a very real challenge to take something all of us encounter (consciously or subconsciously) on a daily basis, like socially defined gender-roles, and completely shift gears when trying to ignore/reorient everything we've ever learned.

I've often tried to reason out a way that a gender-equal society would logically exist in Zalanthas, but I was never able to convince myself that it could.  However, the most important realization for me was not to try and accept the logic of a gender-equal society, but simply to accept gender-equality as it pertains to playing the game.

The point behind the gender-equal society is not that it's a well-supported IC phenomenon, but that, OOCly, women should have exactly the same opportunity to enjoy the game as men.  Female characters should be just as capable of playing a clan leader, cunning hunter, skilled mercenary, influential senator, shrewd merchant, and deadly assassin as any male character.  Sex should never come into the equation when considering a character for an appointment or role.  And as long as this is maintained, I can look past some of the subtle physical and mental breakdowns we occasionally demonstrate in our day-to-day interactions between our male and female characters.

-LoD

[The Archbishop]

Is it proper rp to laugh or give odd looks at a man wearing a dress?

[valeria]

...OOCly, women should have exactly the same opportunity to enjoy the game as men.  Female characters should be just as capable of playing a clan leader, cunning hunter, skilled mercenary, influential senator, shrewd merchant, and deadly assassin as any male character.  Sex should never come into the equation when considering a character for an appointment or role...

This. 

This is why I eventually came here, because the place I was playing for about two years before mostly relegated women to very stereotypically 'historical' women's roles, and you were treated like some kind of oddball if you wanted to TRY play a Sargent or any other kind of military leadership.  I freaking hated that.  I take enough crap in the real world for being an intelligent, outspoken woman from a lot of backwards-thinking men AND women, in my real life and career, and I just don't want that in my fantasy escape game.

Yes, there's a difference between keeping all roles open to everyone, and ignoring physiological differences, but if the policy is that women and men are physically alike, and the purpose of that is to keep all roles open and promote an environment of nondiscrimination, I'm willing to suspend my disbelief for that.  Since I can suspend my disbelieve enough to think like X, Y, or Z person whose life experiences don't match my own at all, I don't really consider the ignoring sex differences incongruities thing much of a challenge.

[brytta.leofa]

Is it proper rp to laugh or give odd looks at a man wearing a dress?

Probably.

DO: Comment on the funny fit.
DON'T: Impugn his sexuality.

[jcljules]

Is it proper rp to laugh or give odd looks at a man wearing a dress?

Probably.

DO: Comment on the funny fit.
DON'T: Impugn his sexuality.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. A man wearing a dress in Zalanthas is funny because a dress is made for a woman's body. Its not effeminate or gay or sexually deviant - its just weird, cause you're wearing clothes that obviously aren't made to fit you.

[Gimfalisette]

I take enough crap in the real world for being an intelligent, outspoken woman from a lot of backwards-thinking men AND women, in my real life and career, and I just don't want that in my fantasy escape game.

QFMFT

[spicemustflow]

I take enough crap in the real world for being an intelligent, outspoken woman from a lot of backwards-thinking men AND women, in my real life and career, and I just don't want that in my fantasy escape game.

Yes, but you can murder them in your fantasy escape game.

[jcljules]

I take enough crap in the real world for being an intelligent, outspoken woman from a lot of backwards-thinking men AND women, in my real life and career, and I just don't want that in my fantasy escape game.

Yes, but you can murder them in your fantasy escape game.

You can't in real life?