See post http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,38255.0.html
First off, should rangers have this skill as of the double crash tonight?
Second, will skill levels be adjusted to existing characters who should have this skill?
Thanks
OMG I THINK I JUST FUDGED! I AM SO PUMPED! THIS IS SO AWESOME!
KAAAAAAABOOOOOOOOOOM!
okay, after a moment I have calmed down. Still....fing...sweet.
Quote from: netflix on March 24, 2010, 12:29:57 AM
First off, should rangers have this skill as of the double crash tonight?
Second, will skill levels be adjusted to existing characters who should have this skill?
Thanks
I have gone and added it to all Rangers in game right now. Everyone else will get it if they should get it when they next log in.
No, skill levels won't be adjusted for existing characters. Rangers will find they should be in good shape to start.
Wow ... this is just too cool. You are the man ... that is all.
Is "outdoor survival" or "camping" (desert quit) next? Cuz if so I would be uber happy.
Quote from: jmordetsky on March 24, 2010, 12:45:49 AM
Is "outdoor survival" or "camping" (desert quit) next? Cuz if so I would be uber happy.
Direction sense branches into 'camping', silly. Get out there and explore those storms!
Also.. Is the skill just a replacement for auto-ranger awesomeness, or is there more to it? Is it worth putting a help file for it, as well?
Basically a revamping moving from an ability on one guild to a skill useable by several. There are a few other tweaks, but nothing else like a cool compass that glows in the dark or anything.
My hand was a bot forced in getting this in, so I forgot to do the helpfile, I'll get it in tomorrow.
This is amazing. Will we know what subguilds get the skill?
Also, Morgenes...I just want you to know that you have fulfilled my number one wish for Armageddon. (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,38236.msg520897.html#msg520897)
I feel so good about this. So happy. So impressed. And it's my birthday! THANK YOU FOR THE INADVERTENT BIRTHDAY PRESENT, MORGENES.
QuoteNo, skill levels won't be adjusted for existing characters. Rangers will find they should be in good shape to start.
Hopefully by that you mean flawless.
And Joy, a skill....one of the things a person should have at basicly flawless levels before even deciding to be a ranger/hunter type. I am not impressed. But while we are nerfing the classes, How about adding Disarm and bash to some subs, they(warriors) need nerfing too.
Really cool it is added to some subguilds. Curious which, though sure some should stand out on having it. :\
Yessss! This + mount command emote = favorite code changes evar.
Awesome! This will really open up new roles. Not to mention Redstorm.
Suddenly, all sorts of tempting concepts are dancing in my head ... which means my current character will. never. die. But such is the way of things.
This is an amazing change. Thank you.
Storm/darkness navigation should branch from blind fighting..
just saying
There is one main class that I think should get this besides Ranger.
Edit: Additionally, the fact that you can (so far as I can tell) get turned around in less severe storms is really pissing me off.
I have to say... I really don't like this change at all. Not one bit. Sorry.
Edited: Rangers were popular for their abilities to -know- where they are during a sandstorm. Now... having seen an experienced ranger try and ride through a storm only to lose their bearings MULTIPLE upon multiple times? Totally disagree with that.
I should note, I have NO problem with the perfect navigation that rangers had being scaled back a bit. I think more people deserve the skill, however.
I should note that the documentation on rangers, says that they have the ability to know where they are at all times. If this skill addage makes it available for other people to learn, I think rangers should either be able to retain the ability for perfect navigation for themselves and their groups following, or the information on rangers changed to reflect that they now have to 'learn' it.
I have no issues with it being added to certain other subclasses... but from what I've seen so far, it makes ranger not that different from warrior, save for skill differences.
It makes someone hiring a ranger to guide them somewhere far less playable right now.
Quote from: Attana on March 24, 2010, 05:58:12 AM
I should note that the documentation on rangers, says that they have the ability to know where they are at all times. If this skill addage makes it available for other people to learn, I think rangers should either be able to retain the ability for perfect navigation for themselves and their groups following, or the information on rangers changed to reflect that they now have to 'learn' it.
I have no issues with it being added to certain other subclasses... but from what I've seen so far, it makes ranger not that different from warrior, save for skill differences.
It makes someone hiring a ranger to guide them somewhere far less playable right now.
I like the idea of rangers keeping perfect ability with this and others having to work for it. That said: I haven't logged in and seen any of this in action yet anyhow, so I'm only going based on theory and opinion.
Hmm, at first I thought good idea, but after hearing that it actually makes rangers worse at moving through storms is really sad, that was possibly their most useful ranger-like ability that set them apart from other classes! Will have to check it out IG before I judge though...
No only does a ranger lose their sense of direction -quite- often, they also cannot lead anyone through storms anymore - which I thought was one of the main perks, main differences between rangers and warriors. With the correct choices in guild and subguild it would seem that ranger class is nearly obsolete right now.
Quote from: Attana on March 24, 2010, 05:58:12 AM
I should note that the documentation on rangers, says that they have the ability to know where they are at all times. If this skill addage makes it available for other people to learn, I think rangers should either be able to retain the ability for perfect navigation for themselves and their groups following, or the information on rangers changed to reflect that they now have to 'learn' it.
I have no issues with it being added to certain other subclasses... but from what I've seen so far, it makes ranger not that different from warrior, save for skill differences.
It makes someone hiring a ranger to guide them somewhere far less playable right now.
Um, give it some time to work the skill up? It's been less than 24 hours.
Quote from: Attana on March 24, 2010, 07:11:51 AM
No only does a ranger lose their sense of direction -quite- often, they also cannot lead anyone through storms anymore - which I thought was one of the main perks, main differences between rangers and warriors. With the correct choices in guild and subguild it would seem that ranger class is nearly obsolete right now.
Ranger quit, poisoning, sniper like skills with bows, wilderness sneak and hide... Unparalleled mounted combat... Obsolete? Hardly...
Nothing, ever, will even come close to the versatility that Rangers have in the outdoors.
I bet, through time like any other skill, that Rangers will still be leading caravans and such. It's not like they don't get other very useful IC skills that set them apart.
Granted though... There will be much more Warrior/(direction sense subguild) out there.
Any story of a Badass Ranger usually doesn't mention there ability to power through the most gruesome, skin tearing, eye blinding, sandstorms right out of the box.
Also, if properly equipped, a newb ranger should not get lost in storms, ever. If you are concerned about this feel free to send me a log including what you are wearing. Rangers lost sone innate ability, but they are still the best option for reliable storm and darkness navigation. They still have the best chance of keeping a properly equipped party together, especially as they gain skill. I'm sorry if you are upset that you have a new skill to train where you were perfect before, but I think it makes sense that it is a skill they need to work on and develop.
As with many changes we make, nothing is set in stone, we can and will make tweaks to this as we see how it is working out, but I still feel like this will work out over time. Send in logs if you would like to contribute, make sure you hce done an equipment and several weather commands along the way.
I don't suppose the negative impact of wearing the particular type of worn object that until this change only gave role-play benefits for storm navigation have been removed? Cause if not, rangers are getting sorta doubly gut-punched.
Also, does this have any effect on a ranger's ability to lead -others- through storms?
Ie, if a ranger gets lost, do those following him just go into the wrong room with him, or will they now possibly scatter depending on skill level?
The change is great - let's at least give it time to see it in action before we say it makes rangers worse. The ride changes weren't so bad.
I'm just curious if it will affect ranger's ability to lead a group as a guide through the outdoors. If it's still possible to do without the followers having this new skill, then it seems alright to me.
Edit: Oops, didn't see this had a second page. My curiosity was sated on the second.
Quote from: netflix on March 24, 2010, 07:51:16 AM
I don't suppose the negative impact of wearing the particular type of worn object that until this change only gave role-play benefits for storm navigation have been removed? Cause if not, rangers are getting sorta doubly gut-punched.
send me an email and we can discuss
This is pretty awesome.
For me personally, I don't really care that all of a sudden the perfect ability to navigate was lost from the ranger guild..for a time. At least until a ranger actually goes out and starts walking around in a storm..and building up the skill just by moving.
Heck, considering what the weather is currently like in certain parts of the game world, this should be easier to skill up in than a mage sitting in a secluded area and spam casting.
I mostly agree with X-D.
I just dont see the purpose of giving other classes this skill.
I dont believe the system was broke, but I have dealt with it
over a decade.
Quote from: Pale Horse on March 24, 2010, 09:09:24 AM
For me personally, I don't really care that all of a sudden the perfect ability to navigate was lost from the ranger guild..for a time.
I haven't played with this at all, nor have I looked at the code on it, but:
Quote from: Morgenes on March 24, 2010, 07:42:49 AM
Also, if properly equipped, a newb ranger should not get lost in storms, ever. If you are concerned about this feel free to send me a log including what you are wearing. Rangers lost sone innate ability, but they are still the best option for reliable storm and darkness navigation. They still have the best chance of keeping a properly equipped party together, especially as they gain skill. I'm sorry if you are upset that you have a new skill to train where you were perfect before, but I think it makes sense that it is a skill they need to work on and develop.
As with many changes we make, nothing is set in stone, we can and will make tweaks to this as we see how it is working out, but I still feel like this will work out over time. Send in logs if you would like to contribute, make sure you hce done an equipment and several weather commands along the way.
Bolded for emphasis.
Have any of you ever actually been in a sandstorm IRL, much less tried to get around in one?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1447064212122697074#docid=198431427204215378
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1447064212122697074#docid=950306408463909262
There are a few other related videos linked from these. In the second video here, you hear one of the people saying, "Light to dark, just like that." And if you've ever seen the movie Stargate, there is a scene where a sandstorm hits, and they practically close up the entire city, with everyone heading indoors to take cover from the storm.
Quoteif properly equipped, a newb ranger should not get lost in storms, ever.
Unbolded, because a newb ranger can't BE properly equipped. If he could, he wouldn't be a newb ranger. Also, a newb -player- wouldn't know what this equip is, that would allow his ranger to be "properly equiped" and wouldn't know to ask in game about it. Particularly if he is in one certain city, he will not even have access to the PCs who could provide this item to him, IF he happened to get lucky and learn of its existence.
Fwiw, I have already tweaked this, which is what we rebooted for this morning. I encourage you to try this out before condeming, but I realize that not everyone can be made happy.
This is a -great- addition to the game. I found it highly unreasonable to have one guild only with maximum ability to ride through the most horrible sands while -all- other guilds could not. This spreads out the playing field and, as mentioned multiple times, there are ways to boost a ranger's ability should they require the extra aid.
Even more-so than meeting a raider or a magicker, an unprepared traveller in the desert should realize how slim their chances of survival is. Yes, it does drag playability down somewhat, but gives a much greater sense of realism and roleplay I think.
RE: Lizzie
They are -new- rangers. I don't see how the argument that a new ranger should be able to walk through a blinding sandstorm straight from the beginning holds sand. Just as with magickers or warriors or merchants with some of their key skills.
A very sensible change. Thanks, Morgenes.
For the record (and the naysayers), I got no problem with giving low-capped main-guild skills to subguilds, as long as they can't get close to the guild's full awesomeness in its area of specialization. I want warriors with backstab, assassins with storm navigation, rangers with disarm, merchants with city hide, and pickpockets with pidgin-cavilish. The old grey men of the GDB will momentarily point out the unbeatable, game-breaking combos here, and, yeah, those need to be taken into account, but I positively adore the potential benefits in guildfuscation.
For me, fewer clear-cut boundaries between guilds means more immersion. I do not like having to think about other characters as Rangers, Warriors, and Mages.
Hello.
I must admit, I dont particularly like the change. Not because the skill is not flawless or whatever, I just dont like that now not only rangers have the ability to navigate storms. Exactly, storms are "debilitating". If you want, strip rangers from their ability to be "flawless" at navigating storms, but dont give 'non' rangers even a semblance of that ability. Keep rangers 'vital' for any travelling organizations. Make leaders actually busy up to set themselves up with a guide. Be it a tribal you know, a trooper you rented out from the Byn, a grebber you force-conscripted as your templar leads the Arm out. It creates so much more employment opportunities. I would personally be more interested in having storms being more sporadic. Meaning that outwaiting them becomes a normal strategy, that doesnt rob your playing time of an hour+. And no I'm not playing a ranger.
I will admit though, the changes in ride, have made rangers a "Scaaaaaary" powerful guild. But then ... I dont like that change either, shrug. Both changes are realistic and all, I wont argue that. But in terms of benefit to the game, I'd say they're more detractions then improvements.
Quote from: Lizzie on March 24, 2010, 10:01:42 AM
Quoteif properly equipped, a newb ranger should not get lost in storms, ever.
Unbolded, because a newb ranger can't BE properly equipped. If he could, he wouldn't be a newb ranger. Also, a newb -player- wouldn't know what this equip is, that would allow his ranger to be "properly equiped" and wouldn't know to ask in game about it. Particularly if he is in one certain city, he will not even have access to the PCs who could provide this item to him, IF he happened to get lucky and learn of its existence.
Let me rephrase it to the way that it was intended. Newb ranger for the previous paragraph was intended to mean "person who just apped in a new character with the guild ranger," not "person completely new to the game." It would be silly for staff to expect that someone new to the game would pick the guild ranger and know exactly what things would be great to wear for dealing with sandstorms. I understand that there was a misunderstanding about the meaning of the phrase "newb ranger," but in the case of new code going in and staff getting involved in the process, it might be best to clarify before launching into a stream of assumptions that then have to be dealt with so that discussion doesn't devolve further into non-issues.
I added..the part about the new player. My main point was in response to Morgenes saying a new character (as in, straight out of chargen), *properly equipped* would have no trouble. And that is true. But a new character straight out of chargen isn't capable of being properly equipped, unless said character has access to said equipment. Which - isn't an option in some parts of the game.
We're looking at that too. :) Given the desert world and all, you'd think such things would be more available.
Quote from: Lizzie on March 24, 2010, 10:30:04 AM
I added..the part about the new player. My main point was in response to Morgenes saying a new character (as in, straight out of chargen), *properly equipped* would have no trouble. And that is true. But a new character straight out of chargen isn't capable of being properly equipped, unless said character has access to said equipment. Which - isn't an option in some parts of the game.
Honessstly Lizzie. A straight out of chargen ANY guild should probably not go out into the wild anyway. The storm might end up being the least of their problems. And as long as a newb ranger doesnt fail atleast 1/3 times, he'll be fine getting back home eventually, unless something bad happens. And well ... bad things happen, but that's what you get for leaving the city straight outtah chargen.
Dar, not everyone starts in cities. Tribals start in their camps, people who pick Luir's Outpost start in Luir's Outpost, and people who start in Red Storm start in Red Storm. There's also desert elves who start out in the Blackwing post. Also, what exactly do you expect a ranger to -do- if they don't leave the city? You're assuming every ranger PC starts in a city and joins a clan where training is provided in the safety of a compound. This just plain isn't the case, and in some situations, there aren't even practice dummies to work with.
Rangers are rangers, in part, -because- they can do things that other classes can't do, or do them in a particular combination that other classes can't combine. The "specialization" of rangers has just been lessened somewhat. I don't consider that rangers have been nerfed, at all. I'm not complaining about this change. However, I am a little disappointed that something that used to be the exclusive domain of my favorite class, is no longer exclusive. It was one of those things that made it special. Not the only thing, but one of them. Now, it's just slightly less special. Not a deal breaker by a long shot, but..just a mild disappointment. I would've liked to see only certain other classes get this ability; such as whirans and rukkians, and the hunter subguild (for example) - and everyone else remain as is.
Also, I'm glad the staff is working on making a certain item more available. I'm assuming it's the one I'm thinking of, and hope that it will be -appropriately- avaiable.
Quote from: Lizzie on March 24, 2010, 11:01:53 AM
Not everyone starts in cities. Tribals start in their camps, people who pick Luir's Outpost start in Luir's Outpost, and people who start in Red Storm start in Red Storm. There's also desert elves who start out in the Blackwing post. Also, what exactly do you expect a ranger to -do- if they don't leave the city?
Rangers are rangers, in part, -because- they can do things that other classes can't do, or do them in a particular combination that other classes can't combine. The "specialization" of rangers has just been lessened somewhat. I don't consider that rangers have been nerfed, at all. I'm not complaining about this change. However, I am a little disappointed that something that used to be the exclusive domain of my favorite class, is no longer exclusive. It was one of those things that made it special. Not the only thing, but one of them. Now, it's just slightly less special. Not a deal breaker by a long shot, but..just a mild disappointment.
Also, I'm glad the staff is working on making a certain item more available. I'm assuming it's the one I'm thinking of, and hope that it will be -appropriately- avaiable.
All that, and.... I dunno. Just seems like rangers are getting nerfed yet again. Most warriors can easily survive in the wild
if there is not a storm. Now others are going to get it? That and the boost to ride were two of the BIG reasons that I enjoy rangers.
I hold back further comments until I experience this IG for myself.
Players can still enjoy rangers. This doesn't detract anything from them, really.
Non-ranger guilds will still need rangers if they want to travel in groups. If alone, however, it gives greater flexibility to their play when out in the deserts and storm-prone locations.
I just think the players who are in the once-exclusive 'Rangers' club are just hating cause new members can join in the fun now. ;D
Quote from: Semper on March 24, 2010, 11:22:14 AM
Players can still enjoy rangers. This doesn't detract anything from them, really.
Non-ranger guilds will still need rangers if they want to travel in groups. If alone, however, it gives greater flexibility to their play when out in the deserts and storm-prone locations.
I just think the players who are in the once-exclusive 'Rangers' club are just hating cause new members can join in the fun now. ;D
Yeah that's how I'm feeling about it, really. Once you play a ranger you get kind of possessive about the coolness of it. When you find out other people can do what you can, it's a let-down. But, I'd say that about magickers too. If the staff decided that everyone should be able to [redacted] or [redacted] then what would be so awesome about playing a [redacted]? I mean..take the whole POINT of playing something, and let everyone do it, and there goes the point. Right down the proverbial drain.
As I said, I don't see this as a deal-breaker and I still think playing a ranger is the most awesome thing in the game world. But, the awesomeness has just lost a few sids worth in value, because it's been given to everyone else.
Personally, I am fine with other subguilds getting this ability. I would assume that, since this is a skill, their caps will be much lower than that of a ranger.
The only thing that bugs me a bit is the treatment of existing rangers. As I understand it, even 50-day rangers are going to suddenly get turned around in storms, whereas they've spent IC years as masters of the dunes. They'll have to rely upon the crutch of tools. I really think their navigation ability should've been grandfathered in by way of their skill level being improved or mastered, not simply for the older chars alone, but because it was a major selling point which led many to choose the guild.
From what I've interpreted of Morgenes' post (and what he specified), it's only -new- rangers (out of the box) who will rely on the crutch of tools to be flawless, and existing rangers should already be flawless (or nearly so), without said crutch.
Comparisons between this thread and an older thread on a very similar subject (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,37029.0.html) are neat to see.
I checked that thread - my opinion hasn't changed. Giving -everyone- something that has always been the exclusive domain of one class, diminishes the "awesomeness" of that one class, somewhat. I would've liked to see it granted to certain other groups (reading back on that thread, I agree with myself about desert elves getting it, that's just logical), and whirans and rukkians to some extent (they -are- the masters of wind and sand, respectively) - or maybe if a rukkian and a whiran travel together, it would cause a symbiosis and they'd both magickally be capable of maneuvering effortlessly - until/unless they are seperated during the trip (or if they get into combat)...something like that would be pretty neat.
Looks back at other thread...Yup, I hated it there too.
And to add, Lizzie has the right of it. Though I call it a nerf, If you raise the utility of all classes cept for one then you lower the utility of the one, This is a nerf. But You all actually went one farther and made it so the one cannot even be perfect as they had been.
Why don't you even the field again and toss Disarm, Peek, Backstab and Cavilish onto subguilds too?
Quote from: Attana on March 24, 2010, 07:11:51 AM
No only does a ranger lose their sense of direction -quite- often, they also cannot lead anyone through storms anymore - which I thought was one of the main perks, main differences between rangers and warriors. With the correct choices in guild and subguild it would seem that ranger class is nearly obsolete right now.
I agree with Atanna. I don't take issue with this skill going to other subguilds but rangers should just have the innate ability. No need to nerf rangers.
But it doesn't give the skill to everyone and all classes - only to certain subguilds.
And as I understand it with a hardly any practice and being properly equipped to travel in bad weather a ranger will be perfectly fine. A select few other subguilds with their lower skill caps will probably be able to get up to pretty good over time.
I don't see the problem and like the change.
Quote from: Boggis on March 24, 2010, 12:15:57 PM
But it doesn't give the skill to everyone and all classes - only to certain subguilds.
QuoteDirection sense is a skill that allows you to keep going the way you intend even in blinding storms and complete darkness. Everyone has some small ability to do this intrinsically, but there are some who excel at it above others.
The help files say otherwise.
Quote from: X-D on March 24, 2010, 12:23:03 PM
QuoteDirection sense is a skill that allows you to keep going the way you intend even in blinding storms and complete darkness. Everyone has some small ability to do this intrinsically, but there are some who excel at it above others.
The help files say otherwise.
Just like everyone can attempt to forage, attempt to kick, attempt to pick a lock, etc. Doesn't mean they actually have the skill itself. Besides, this is hardly a change: non-rangers always had a chance to not stumble around in a tremendous sandstorm, if they got lucky.
Personally thought this should have been done to wilderness quit first, but alright. I'm digging the change a lot.
You cannot attempt to pick a lock...No matter what the echo is. If you do not have the skill.
But hey, lets go along with that, so it only gives it to like 4 subs. Let us be fair on the matter, Give 4 subs Cav and 4 subs Disarm and 4 subs Backstab and 4 subs Peek.
Oh hell, Lets just make up a bunch more subs and spread all possible skills over them.
Then every guild will be equally useless.
Quote from: X-D on March 24, 2010, 12:01:58 PM
Looks back at other thread...Yup, I hated it there too.
And to add, Lizzie has the right of it. Though I call it a nerf, If you raise the utility of all classes cept for one then you lower the utility of the one, This is a nerf. But You all actually went one farther and made it so the one cannot even be perfect as they had been.
Why don't you even the field again and toss Disarm, Peek, Backstab and Cavilish onto subguilds too?
This.
This sort of a change is going in the right direction. I think the harder it is for people to know what class you are the better. I also agree with X-D that this should be done to other skills that are inherent to your main guild too. Like bash/wilderness quit/peek.
Are we going to get a City and an Outdoor version of this skill?
Rangers get both...they have the innate ability to know where they are at all times.
Assassins, Pickpockets, and Burglars have the City version pretty high...or it branches from one of the sneaky skills(?). Part of their job would be knowing where they are in the city and being able to move around without having to look.
Caravan Guides, Foresters, Hunters, Nomads, Rebels, get the Outdoor version...don't think I need to explain...
Maybe Rebels would also get a low City-version cap...part of "guerrilla war" is hit in run in the dark (possibly) in cities, right?
Thieves get City version...same reason as Assassins and Pickpockets above...
House Servants get City version for piloting their master's guests home in the wagon.
Just a few ideas, if this skill does get two versions...
I really wish we had a link to when skin was changed from an intrinsic ability (perfect for rangers, blah for several other guilds) to a skill. Unfortunately, I think that change happened while we were still on the old boards?
I like the change. I would have chosen a different subguild with my current character if it had been in when I created her/him/it. Sometimes you create a character who does know more IC'ly about the wastes than 95% of the ranger guild characters you come across (waste running DE merchant, non-city based chars, gith raiders). It was always annoying not to be able to reflect that with getting around when you weren't a ranger.
This is a shift that I think is a long time coming. It is a change from "Rangers are the masters of the wastes" to "Rangers have the skillset to become masters of the wastes" while at the same time letting other guilds come closer becoming quasi-masters, at least. Which is good, being able to build out skillsets to target those situations or roles you want to be good at.
Edited to add: I am all for turning most all intrinsic abilities I can think of into skills. Note that things like bash, peek, disarm etc. are not intrinsic abilities. They are skills.
Quote from: X-D on March 24, 2010, 12:29:04 PM
You cannot attempt to pick a lock...No matter what the echo is. If you do not have the skill.
Ok, but everybody has some ability with forage. I think we've all seen the difference between the class who excels with the skill and somebody with a low cap. Now, we don't know what a small intrinsic level of ability means exactly but I'd wager that it's pretty low indeed. Chances are you'd end up going the right way as often just from random luck as opposed to using the skill itself. Rangers will be fine. A few subguilds will be able to build up to pretty good. Everybody else is still more or less screwed in storms and would greatly appreciate a ranger leading them along.
A city version would be pretty pointless.
I think he meant "just for when it's dark" and not for sandstorms when talking about a city version.
I can definately dig this change. Especially since it will help get rid of guild sniffing and unrealistic acts. IE: "Hey new recruit, you can guide us without fail through the Red Desert."
Right, sure I can...
This isn't a nerf to me, rather a fix to something I have considered broken since storms started to throw -everyone- but rangers off course. That was a major boost to the ranger class. This is a minor downgrade to an ability they will eventually perform perfectly anyway with time.
Rangers are still the wilderness experts. As with every change like this we are experiencing a knee-jerk reaction, give it a little time people.
Quote from: X-D on March 24, 2010, 12:29:04 PM
You cannot attempt to pick a lock...No matter what the echo is. If you do not have the skill.
But hey, lets go along with that, so it only gives it to like 4 subs. Let us be fair on the matter, Give 4 subs Cav and 4 subs Disarm and 4 subs Backstab and 4 subs Peek.
Oh hell, Lets just make up a bunch more subs and spread all possible skills over them.
Then every guild will be equally useless.
What, now we're arguing that ranger sense was so core and unique to the ranger class that it is equivalent to disarm and cavilish? Backstab and peek are not unique to a single class. I always thought the ranger's schtick was a) jack-of-all-trades power in a huge slew of different skills with a scope unparalleled by any other class b) desert survival and c) mounts. Sure, your desert survival monopoly has lost a little bit of uniqueness, but you're seriously exaggerating the "nerf" to rangers.
This change only increases the possibilities of the game, and it can't be bad. And I am really digging the fact that my character is not utterly and unrealistically lost in darkness anymore; I assume navigating a tremendous sandstorm is much more difficult.
I have two thoughts on this.
First, I am happy with the general idea of the change. I never liked the whole dichotomy of characters being either perfect or terrible in storms. Some in-between is a good thing, and I think this provides that.
My second comment (which, I'll add, comes before I've had an opportunity to experience the change) is that I hope that characters without the skill won't find that they are now significantly worse at getting around than ever before. Storm navigation problems are great, but they also present unfortunate playability issues sometimes (particularly because the classes that need to find quit rooms to log out may have the hardest time reaching them when a storm arises).
Overall, I think this is good change. Thanks!
In my experience yesterday (and I will admit that I haven't played during a storm since the tweaking and this morning's reboot), flurry, other characters without the skill did see their ability to get through storms worsen.
Quotea) jack-of-all-trades power in a huge slew of different skills with a scope unparalleled by any other class
First, at least two other classes fit that as well. One of them was arguably more powerful already, and can now get at least 2 ranger percs with 1 subguild.
Second, The only real defense to many skills is to have the skill itself. This includes Storm/darkness nav. Which is why I named the skills I did. Disarm is a powerful warrior skill, the only real defense against it is having the skill, passing the skill out to subs would reduce the utility of the warrior class as a whole and be equal to giving out Storm nav. The same applies to Peek. Backstab is only on stealthy city classes, lets give it to non-stealthy and wilderness classes. Cav, Well Merchants don't have much that people cannot already get so I picked that as the last remaining defining item they do get.
My point is, Rangers are the ones that keep losing uniqueness, I don't see why the other guilds are not as well.
A great change. Playing someone that's had major difficulties with navigating storms, I think it's great to allow this ability through sub-guilds.
As for the cheapening of the ranger guild, I think people are overreacting. Rangers still have all of the outdoor abilities that still keep them ahead of any other guild/subguild combo in making them the masters of the outdoors. Anyone that would attempt to be a ranger with some similar guild/subguild combo would only be a cheap imitation.
As for storm navigation being more difficult than before, I can say it was pretty bad before, I don't know if it could be any worse. When remembering consider that it is weather based and weather is more than just sand (visibility), there is also wind to be considered.
Quote from: spawnloser on March 24, 2010, 12:47:47 PM
In my experience yesterday (and I will admit that I haven't played during a storm since the tweaking and this morning's reboot), flurry, other characters without the skill did see their ability to get through storms worsen.
I hope daytime city navigation doesn't remain as difficult as it seems to be now.
I appreciate the staff efforts on this so far, though.
edit: reworded
1) Does this change add more realism to the game? Yes.
2) Does this change "make sense?" Yes.
3) Does this change diminish or increase the variety of roles and options available to characters? Increase.
Sounds like a win to me.
Finally, should more skills be spread out over more guilds and subguilds? Sounds great to me.
Edit: Would I like to see more of the warrior skillset available to other guilds? HELL YES.
Rangers still have their niche and a slew of abilities that give them more utility and flexibility than warriors. Players are also given more options and flexibility regarding the creation of outdoorsy and hunter characters. This is a small change, and it's foolish to assume that this change is going to somehow turn the game around and completely mix everything up.
Quote from: X-DMy point is, Rangers are the ones that keep losing uniqueness, I don't see why the other guilds are not as well.
Yes you do, but you're trying to bait people into arguments. If you actually wanted a valid discussion, you could open up a new thread for why you believe backstab should be given to four sub-guilds instead of derailing the "Discussion for Change to Storm/Darkness navigation" thread.
Quote from: Nyr on March 24, 2010, 11:49:32 AM
Comparisons between this thread and an older thread on a very similar subject are neat to see.
Nyr, you are now my favorite imm.
Editted out weird formatting.
This is awesomesauce.
I never remember losing direction while in cities before. Why is this happening now?
:'(
My favorite guild is now ruined.
The reason I loved the Ranger uniqueness has now been stripped away.
I could just as easily app a warrior, with one of the subguilds that get this, and be just as effetive, if not more at playing a ranger, minus the wilderness quit.
Personal views.
-Kol
Moderated a couple of posts that were beginning to stray into IC-sensitive areas regarding magick.
Please ask those kinds of questions via the request tool (or find out in-game).
Some folks in here seem to have come to the conclusion that because the change revealed a certain piece of IC information (rangers and other classes can move in storms) it's now OK to discuss the intricacies of other classes. Please stop.
Quote from: Kol on March 24, 2010, 01:47:23 PM
I could just as easily app a warrior, with one of the subguilds that get this, and be just as effetive, if not more at playing a ranger, minus the wilderness quit.
Personal views.
-Kol
Initially, I agreed with you. But then I realized the difference between a warrior/stormnavigator and ranger is more about where you are based than your guild name. Rangers are still masters of the desert, able to live out in the desert for weeks, months, forever if they want. Hell, they could even probably survive if they lost their mount.
But warriors are still deeply city-based, regardless of the change. If you played your rangers as city based warriors with stormnavigation, maybe you should consider what you've gained! Now you can truly play the rough sand-caked solo warrior you've always wanted.
What i'm saying is, yes, Rangers are a little less unique, but if you played them for storm navigation you were missing A LOT. Maybe you should play a warrior/stormnavigator for awhile and see just what's different.
Personally, I think everyone should be able to do this as a "hidden skill" type thing, as to not make navigation through the city aggravatingly impossible. (As it stands as of this posting, I'm predicting a slew of link-deads standing around in the street. I know I have a hard time finding more than an hour at a time to sit down and play, and now a trip from the Gaj to the bazaar and back could be that entire hour.)
OR, city storms should at least be a lot easier to navigate. I mean, you're in a city. You can only go so far until you bump into a wall. And AFTER you've bumped into said wall, you can pretty much just follow it all the way down the street. (At least this is how I've always emoted it in these situations.) I don't know about you guys, but when stumbling down a dark hallway from my bedroom to the bathroom in the middle of the night, I've NEVER accidentally ended up back at my bedroom.
Think about it. How do you have a skill in real life? From experience in dealing with something. (Or even, how do you justify your class choice in your background? Your pickpocket learned to steal out of trial and error, and necessity for survival, right?) Who has to navigate a storm in the desert world of Zalanthas? EVERYBODY. Just a thought....
QuoteI would've liked to see only certain other classes get this ability; such as whirans and rukkians, and the hunter subguild (for example) - and everyone else remain as is.
I'd like to see Rukkians get a spell that is beneficial to this. Whirans don't need it - nough said. As far as subguilds go, I personally think hunter, nomad, caravan guide, scavenger, and forester should get it. (Maybe rebel.) Also,
THE ENTIRE RACE OF DESERT ELF.[/u] I know a d-elf is already practically a ranger already, but that's sorta realistic, no?
Claiming that this is a nerf to rangers is, in my opinion, unfounded. Lets face it, this is officially the easiest skill to grind EVER, and you can't even get accused of being a twink. Dis-pleased rangers, give your character 5 hours played in less-than-ideal weather, and you'll forget what you were blabbing about.
I like the reference back to skinning. I remember when skinning became an EVERYBODY skill. People cried, "there's no reason to be a ranger anymore!" and they were proven utterly wrong. This is the same thing. The
EXACT same thing.
Knee-jerk reactionaries, all of you.
It was an all or nothing ability. You could either perfectly get through the storm, without fail, every time, or you failed, every time. EVERY TIME. How is that good?
Rangers have been the most useful class in the game for a long long time. Nothing has changed. They have skillsets everywhere mundane and their max skill levels are hardly in the range of "jack of all trade, master of none". They ARE master archers. They ARE master trackers. They ARE master healers, master brewers, master poisoners, master tamers, master campers, master skinners. Their weapon skills are second only to warriors. They have the ability, with three other classes, to gain parry, a cornerstone of combat. They are one of the most aware classes, the most aware outside the city. They can climb, they can craft WITHOUT subguilds. They can be stealthy gits and do very well at it. Oh, right. Charge!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And now you can't ride through a blinding sandstorm perfectly, guaranteed. You now might have to use some equipment to help make it flawless. HOLY FUCKING SHIT! CALL THE PRESSES THE CLASS IS RUINED!
Calm down :P This change hurts no one. Your rangers will have to consider the weather and turn traveling into an event. No more "s;s;s;s;s;s;say We made it!" You might get tossed around and YOU have to actually know the terrain to correct. Learn the land and navigating it becomes easier, albeit slower in a horrible storm. Anyone here drive slower in a blizzard?
Only input: Add this ability to animals and npcs. In a horrible, blinding storm the gith and halflings should be slowed down too.
I think that it's about time such ability was available for certain other guilds/subguilds. I do disagree with removing the ranger's ability to do it flawless out of the box though. If they haven't been given it already, I can think of two magicker guilds that should get the ability as well since sandstorms are connected to their elements. I'm interested in seeing how this goes.
I feel like a newb now. I have no idea what 'properly equipped' refers to.
And that's not going to detract from the likeliness of my playing a ranger at all ever.
As to the 'dealbreaker' skills from guilds given to subguilds: Good. If it makes sense, allows flexibility, and keeps players from seeing their pcs as a guild instead of a person, I'm all for it.
(Then, I'm still in the camp of giving EVERYONE the ability to quit anywhere.)
That said: I am a bit upset to hear that this is resulting in people getting lost inside cities... As cramped as they ought to be, I don't see someone getting lost easily in a city at ALL. Anyone. With or without the skill. Even at night with no moons, truthfully. Yeah, maybe one room out of 10, at night with no moon in perfect darkness. But with all the storms in the south, I can imagine this is going to be very, very aggravating to work around.
I still haven't received a log of any issues with this. If you are having trouble getting around in a city, mail me a log.
I haven't personally, Morg, I admit I'm going off what I've heard in the thread so far. I'm going to try and log in tonight, and I'll send a log if I am.
Not trying to derail the thread.
The change needed to happen. Objectively - storm nav should be a skill. Warriors don't start with perfect disarm and burglars don't start with perfect pick. The change is good for the game. I think it sucks to be a 40 day ranger and now have to deal with this, but a) There is equip for you - which is realistic and b) That'll last what a week?
As for calling it a "nerf", meh well - okay, sure. But - it was a nerf that adds to the realism and playability to the game in one swoop. Nerf or not - I'm in love with the change. (A max desert elf ranger is still the most powerful character in game hands down, so lets call this a "little baby nerf" it's not that big a deal).
For the record though - While I don't I agree the game will suffer without it - I think the suggestion of having other "main" guild skills available as sub guild skills with the proper caps is probably a valid one.
A soldier/gladiator sub with disarm and bash is a great idea.
Adding backstab to thug (or creating another sub)
Adding pick/peek to thief
Are all great ideas. (Mundanes only - mind you - no fire mage subs pls).
Quote from: jmordetsky on March 24, 2010, 02:58:09 PM
The change needed to happen. Objectively - storm nav should be a skill. Warriors don't start with perfect disarm and burglars don't start with perfect pick. The change is good for the game. I think it sucks to be a 40 day ranger and now have to deal with this, but a) There is equip for you - which is realistic and b) That'll last what a week?
Agreed. Loved the change.
PS: As for the other sub changes you sugested... thieves without the ability to "peek" always made me think, "WTF?"
Quote from: FantasyWriter on March 24, 2010, 03:24:31 PM
Quote from: jmordetsky on March 24, 2010, 02:58:09 PM
The change needed to happen. Objectively - storm nav should be a skill. Warriors don't start with perfect disarm and burglars don't start with perfect pick. The change is good for the game. I think it sucks to be a 40 day ranger and now have to deal with this, but a) There is equip for you - which is realistic and b) That'll last what a week?
Agreed. Loved the change.
PS: As for the other sub changes you sugested... thieves without the ability to "peek" always made me think, "WTF?"
I'm going to post them as polls so not to derail.
I don't mind the change that much in theory. What I do mind is that a ranger who has been alive for about a RL year is now unable to do what he has spent this time actually doing! Say he was dumb as a brick and learned slow now all the high wisdom rangers going to be better at what the old ranger should be much better at. I -wonder- why people grind skills, we are forced to. How does one explain suddenly becoming less competent? Oh I used to be a master of the sands but naw you better take that new guy to guide you. And what is -really- aggravating is nor knowing what the hell this equipment you need. Go ahead and censor me but what are you talking about?! I mean you could role play a face wrap, a stormcloak, a hood...all as helping? Why is this some more super secret "Find out IC" crap? Every one lives in a practically perpetual sandstorm but oh no we need to keep teh noobs from knowing the common knowledge of what helps you walk in a sandstorm.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on March 24, 2010, 01:43:37 PM
I never remember losing direction while in cities before. Why is this happening now?
Would definitely happen in sand-swirlin' darkness...if you weren't playing a ranger.
Hell...I remember (just once) loosing my sense of direction AS A RANGER, IN A CITY, in his clan's compound (an area he should know better than the area outside the gates he's only been to a handful of times) during a sandstorm at night before this change...Rangers never were PERFECT, from my experience...just close enough to it.
As for this "properly equipped" everyone keeps spouting...I'd hope this info becomes more accessible IG, as I haven't the damnedest of what it is...other than the help files say holding a light source (torch, lantern, whatever) helps in darkness, but I doubt this is what everyone's alluding to.
I imagine rangers will deal with it IG the same way they had to deal with suddenly not being able to skin perfectly, when that went in. Or other classes dealt with...things...when changes were made to them.
As for stuff, I imagine that it would be stuff you would realistically use in a sandstorm. I know I've used certain things on most of my outdoors characters for well over ten years now to "deal with sandstorms". It is actually very nice to know they now provide some benefit. I just hope all such instances of such items are updated.
QuoteHow does one explain suddenly becoming less competent? Oh I used to be a master of the sands but naw you better take that new guy to guide you. And what is -really- aggravating is nor knowing what the hell this equipment you need.
Old age got to ya! :o
It's Arm, we're always making up excuses that wouldn't work IG, with the OOC understanding that it has to be accepted as something else.
Example:"I would love to train hard, Sarge, but I'm really tired and I have to sleep for 12 days straight." = "Screw you guys, I'm loggin' off!"
A simple, "Wow! Haven't seen a storm this bad in a while!" is acceptable. Nobody is gonna think your maxxxed ranger is a dumb newb, and try to take away your big boy boots. We all know you just got "OMGWTF NERFED 3000!" and just need a moment to recalibrate.
And really, it's not unrealistic that, even after being so studdedly awesome for so long, he simply made an oopsy. If maxxxed people never failed, we would have a lot fewer car accidents from people 30 years of age and older, and I wouldn't have gotten mildly disoriented trying to get from point A to point B last weekend in the same 40 acre woods I've flawlessly navigated since I was old enough to walk and wander.
QuoteAnd what is -really- aggravating is nor knowing what the hell this equipment you need. Go ahead and censor me but what are you talking about?! I mean you could role play a face wrap, a stormcloak, a hood...all as helping? Why is this some more super secret "Find out IC" crap? Every one lives in a practically perpetual sandstorm but oh no we need to keep teh noobs from knowing the common knowledge of what helps you walk in a sandstorm.
Really, I don't like the idea of this one supers3kret item. (If it is indeed 1 item, because it's only ever been referred to as "gear" which is vague and possibly plural.) I think a multitude of items should add small bonuses to aiding desert navigation. Facewraps, sunslits, veiled surmacs, and a variety of hooded, desert-style cloaks. (Has anyone ever READ the stormcloak's mdesc?? That thing is bad-ass, and seriously under-powered!)
Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on March 24, 2010, 04:48:10 PM
Really, I don't like the idea of this one supers3kret item. (If it is indeed 1 item, because it's only ever been referred to as "gear" which is vague and possibly plural.) I think a multitude of items should add small bonuses to aiding desert navigation. Facewraps, sunslits, veiled surmacs, and a variety of hooded, desert-style cloaks. (Has anyone ever READ the stormcloak's mdesc?? That thing is bad-ass, and seriously under-powered!)
That is probably a valid point. We (as players) can help that along though by idea/bug it in game on the web site if you find an item that should have a boost. Remember dudes, there are a lot of items. It's not a trivial task, but it's something that could collaboratively get done.
I remember reading that 300+ sid worth stormcloak mdesc and going all "whoaa" a stillsuit! And then I worn it, looked at the stamina boost it gives me and was .... dissapointed, to say the least.
Why are people so repulsed by the change? I can't get my mind wrapped around it. Rangers will be less needed? Yeah right.
They're still more observant than warriors. They're still better riders than warriors can ever become and that includes taming wild mounts. They're still the only ones that can 'wilderness-quit'. They still, though modest, receive healing and poisoning abilities. They're still the best skinners. They are still the only class that can 'forage food'. They're still the masters of wilderness-stealth and counter-stealth. They receive additional crafting abilities that warriors can't get.[edited to add]They have maxxed archery, a.k.a wilderness backstab.[/edited to add]
[sarcasm]You are right. Now that folks with 'caravan guide' subguild can find their way in the storms, rangers are nerfed to the point of no recovery. I cannot think of a single other reason rangers can be useful and distinctive. Staff could rather remove the guild altogether.[/sarcasm]
Not sure where to put this, but I disagree with this change -- I still don't agree with the spam threads that just popped up in this forum. Please stop posting them.
My two cents:
I believe a moderate skill-bump should be grandfathered in to current rangers with a modicum of experience about them. While I must admit I'm for the change in general, there are some people who decided to make a ranger to explore, relying on 'uber-awesome storm sense'. There's also the entire idea of an experienced ranger suddenly losing most of their ability, but that's already been beaten to a pulp.
If it hasn't already, I'd like to have this mysterious piece of equipment that helps be revealed, especially seeing that it's only one piece. Over the coming days, it'd also be nice to make sure all the kinks are worked out so the new skill actually works as intended. How does the skill work if people follow in a chain? (A>B>C) If you have a hitched mount, will it fail and go a different direction, even though you could feasibly have your hands on its reins?
While I personally think Ranger has lost some appeal with storm trekking being distributed to other subguilds, I think those subguilds have earned more appeal, enough to make up for the perceived loss. Rangers still have wilderness quit, just as Merchants are the only ones capable of master craftsmanship, or Warriors excelling at combat. Burglars, Pick-Pockets, and Assassins all have their respectable benefits as well.
Quote from: janeshephard on March 24, 2010, 07:45:05 PM
Not sure where to put this, but I disagree with this change -- I still don't agree with the spam threads that just popped up in this forum. Please stop posting them.
Okay, np. No more posts. Thanks for you again for weighing in and remember your opinion is valuable.
Quote from: Marc on March 24, 2010, 02:18:48 PM
It was an all or nothing ability. You could either perfectly get through the storm, without fail, every time, or you failed, every time. EVERY TIME. How is that good?
The change is mostly good. Caravan Guide should be able to guide caravans, or failing that, at very least guide himself.
However -- I can and will defend the idea of a character being able to be good at something out straight out of character gen. Ranger and caravan guide should be able to guide caravans without having to grind for it first. The assumption should be, for many skills, that all the boring work took place before the character became a PC, unless the player opts into playing a younger character.
Quote from: number13 on March 24, 2010, 07:58:57 PM
However -- I can and will defend the idea of a character being able to be good at something out straight out of character gen. Ranger and caravan guide should be able to guide caravans without having to grind for it first. The assumption should be, for all skills, that all the boring work took place before the character became a PC, unless the player opts into playing a younger character.
Given the fact that ranger seems to have been the only class I can think of to have had nearly flawless capability with any skills out of the box, I'm not exactly crying over this. If a 0 hour warrior could always disarm non-combat characters without dropping their own weapon, if a 0 hour merchant could haggle down lengths of silk to hardly half the original cost, or if a 0 day assassin could coat 19/20 daggers with terradin without failure, then I would be more willing to see eye-to-eye with your opinion that a 0 hour ranger should be able to flawlessly navigate terrible sandstorms that blot out the sun.
I see absoultely no problem with empowering subclasses just a little while requiring the wilderness gods (rangers) to need to put in a good 1-2 days before they flawlessly navigate storms.
If you want a PC to start with boosted starting skills, such as a ranger who can navigate storms perfectly at 0 hours, you can put in a special request.
Bah, this sucks.
Really? A 40+ day ranger now fails in storm travel...in stinging sands, During the day? Come on now.
Oh Hey, Yes, after 30+ years of living in the sands I suddenly forgot how to do it last night. No, I remember Everything else, just the one foot in front of another thing seems to no longer work.
Really now Morg, what is the reason Vet rangers are not getting the skill boosted to a level fitting play time?
Quote from: X-D on March 24, 2010, 08:27:20 PM
Really now Morg, what is the reason Vet rangers are not getting the skill boosted to a level fitting play time?
Same reason they didn't get a boost to starting trample. Same reason other guilds don't get starting boosts when new skills are introduced. You're expected to play it through. Wave your hands, call it a ret-con, whatever you like, but for all intents and purposes you never were any better at this than you are now. Welcome to your new reality.
If you see me naked running in a circle in a storm pay no attention, working as intended :P.
I hope a certain magicker guild finally gets storm navigation. That little detail always aggravated me beyond all rational capacity to ignore it.
So... If I have a veteran ranger, whose fashioned his life around surviving and riding through the waste's worst storms, suddenly not know how to find his way through a storm - Staff, please don't start nagging at me for spam-riding through the wastes to "re-learn" how to ride a god damn mount through a sandstorm, after 10+ IC years played of doing so.
Quote from: Morgenes on March 24, 2010, 08:32:23 PM
Quote from: X-D on March 24, 2010, 08:27:20 PM
Really now Morg, what is the reason Vet rangers are not getting the skill boosted to a level fitting play time?
Same reason they didn't get a boost to starting trample. Same reason other guilds don't get starting boosts when new skills are introduced. You're expected to play it through. Wave your hands, call it a ret-con, whatever you like, but for all intents and purposes you never were any better at this than you are now. Welcome to your new reality.
This is not the same.
In this instance a skill that formerly belonged to a single guild now belongs to more than one, and the original suddenly sucks at it. I'm not even playing right now and I think that is a bad decision for any kind of verisimilitude and it's the kind of decision that pisses players off. It would be like an physician suddenly not seeing tints if that became a skill. What happened, the PC got dumb over night? You were never better at this than you are now? How about perfect to complete novice in a blink. Welcome to your new reality? Really, I'd think an immortal could offer some better suggestions than the kind of placation you'd give a 5-year old.
Current rangers should have an average of their skills taken and have the new skill set there. Yes, that would be some work, but then at least they would only be less valuable instead of less valuable and pissed off OOC.
Quote from: Gunnerblaster on March 24, 2010, 10:44:28 PM
So... If I have a veteran ranger, whose fashioned his life around surviving and riding through the waste's worst storms, suddenly not know how to find his way through a storm - Staff, please don't start nagging at me for spam-riding through the wastes to "re-learn" how to ride a god damn mount through a sandstorm, after 10+ IC years played of doing so.
Ditto, though admittedly I don't have as much time on my ranger as Gunnerblaster has on his. Same point though.
Send me a log of a ranger sucking at this skill. You are speaking in generalities and I've yet to see it.
QuoteThis is not the same.
In this instance a skill that formerly belonged to a single guild now belongs to more than one, and the original suddenly sucks at it.
Seriously folks. This is -exactly- how it happened with the change to skin. Also a flawless ranger inherent skill, made into a regular skill, that existing rangers then started at low levels with. The precedent is well, well established going back at least 10 years (it was the first one I was around for) and probably longer. If you didn't -expect- this to be the case I don't know what to say other than you have unrealistic expectations. This is how it is always handled.
What do you consider Sucking?
I saw This...
Blowing, stinging sands cause you to lose your bearings.
Alas, you cannot go that way.
Four times in Ten rooms before I quit out and posted my last post on this thread.
One in Ten would have been Sucking in my book, Four in Ten is just down right Stupid.
Quote from: Marc on March 24, 2010, 02:18:48 PM
Only input: Add this ability to animals and npcs. In a horrible, blinding storm the gith and halflings should be slowed down too.
Yes. And NPCs should also not be able to attack you in complete darkness. >:(
Quote from: BlazinDayz on March 24, 2010, 11:08:26 PM
Quote from: Marc on March 24, 2010, 02:18:48 PM
Only input: Add this ability to animals and npcs. In a horrible, blinding storm the gith and halflings should be slowed down too.
Yes. And NPCs should also not be able to attack you in complete darkness. >:(
Unless they/you bump into eachother. In a giant desert room that could be an acre or more, that'd be unlikely. Deep in a small cave that you're crawling through...much more likely.
Quote from: X-D on March 24, 2010, 11:08:14 PM
What do you consider Sucking?
I saw This...
Blowing, stinging sands cause you to lose your bearings.
Alas, you cannot go that way.
Four times in Ten rooms before I quit out and posted my last post on this thread.
One in Ten would have been Sucking in my book, Four in Ten is just down right Stupid.
Send me a log, include what you are wearing and please include weather commands pulled across the areas you traverse.
Finally logged in post-fix. Feedback:
Inside a city I could see 1 room at dawn with terrible sands and didn't get lost. [Hope this isn't too IC]
I found the above slightly strange because in the desert I could see 2 rooms at dawn with terrible sands but got lost almost all the time. [Hope this isn't too IC]
I'm finding this a little bit weird. I like have a problem being unable to travel at all during bad storms if the duration and/or frequency was more sporadic, but at the moment I'm scared my PC is going to be confined to cities unless he or she has skills, magick, or the weather is pretty (which is less and less common these days).
I'm also in some agreement with Synthesis regarding possible changes to one or more magicker classes that are more rugged or have affiny for direction.
Quote from: Sephiroto on March 24, 2010, 11:29:02 PM
Finally logged in post-fix. Feedback:
Inside a city I could see 1 room at dawn with terrible sands and didn't get lost. [Hope this isn't too IC]
I found the above slightly strange because in the desert I could see 2 rooms at dawn with terrible sands but got lost almost all the time. [Hope this isn't too IC]
I'm finding this a little bit weird. I like have a problem being unable to travel at all during bad storms if the duration and/or frequency was more sporadic, but at the moment I'm scared my PC is going to be confined to cities unless he or she has skills, magick, or the weather is pretty (which is less and less common these days).
I'm also in some agreement with Synthesis regarding possible changes to one or more magicker classes that are more rugged or have affiny for direction.
Send me a log please.
Speaking for non ranger classes... with the sheer frequency of "terrible" level sandstorms in certain city locations... while, sure, it's "realistic" that these locations have lots of storms and its "realistic" to get lost in them, I think a playability standpoint should also come in. When characters lacking this new skill can't even move halfway across a city during the middle of the day, that's gonna really kill their fun factor, with the changes in chance of now getting lost in city.
You don't get direction-randomized inside cities, no matter how bad the storm is.
Unless it's complete darkness, that is.
Quote from: Synthesis on March 24, 2010, 11:50:08 PM
You don't get direction-randomized inside cities, no matter how bad the storm is.
Unless it's complete darkness, that is.
Agreed... in a wide open spot like the bazaar, maybe. But in city streets? There's currents of traffic, and walls nearby. It should be more or less impossible to get turned around.
You can and will loose your bearings in the city before and after this change if there's a storm in the city (ranger's aside for the before).
Note that thanks to players helping through letting me watch I have found a bug in the equipment checking piece of this that wasn't giving people that are geared properly the bonus. Next reboot that will be in.
We are still trying to get a log showing a ranger losing their way repeatedly in a short amount of time in any storm, with our without gear. We are still investigating and working on this. With the exception of Rangers who were perfect before, this shouldn't be much worse than it was before at worse case, and should be much better in most cases. I really did plan to improve playability with this change folks.
I see the problem with in-city storms, that'll be fixed with the next reboot.
I think this is a great change.. I understand having umber characters and having to deal with change but really,, if you have 10+ days then you have the paticents to let the skill build up. I've played many a ranger in my days and in truth they are a awsome class to play in many many roles, personally I think it would be cool if they get the best in this skill And I give you a big clap on the back Morgs, I think You've done alot of work with code and Its nice to see change and new code in the game I personally so love to play.
Just my two cents..
Zharal.
Why do I lose my bearings when I try to climb? There's a big difference between north and up/down.
This kind of seems to make rangers shitty now.
Why play a ranger? When can be a warrior/desert walk subguild? -shrugs-
Eh though its cool in its own right, that some these subguilds (and one magicker type) should have had these anyway!!
You guys should TRUST MORGENES.
When has he ever let us down?
Quote from: BlackMagic0 on March 25, 2010, 04:30:58 AM
Why play a ranger? When can be a warrior/desert walk subguild? -shrugs-
Because a ranger is a lot more than just "desert walk"... which they're still going to be the best at too.
Quote from: Boggis on March 25, 2010, 07:05:05 AM
Quote from: BlackMagic0 on March 25, 2010, 04:30:58 AM
Why play a ranger? When can be a warrior/desert walk subguild? -shrugs-
Because a ranger is a lot more than just "desert walk"... which they're still going to be the best at too.
Not really. I've played 'higher end' rangers. They got some nice things, yes, though one the best things about them. Which made a lot of people want them. Is not those. Its the ability to know where you are at all times, and be able to lead parties through the storms. From what I heard, is with the new code/skill, can not lead people anymore at all. They get lost even if you don't, and you get lost in the lowest of the storms. Eh...
Honestly does not matter anyways, not for my current pc.
I am leaving it up to Morgs, sure he will not let us down this time, never yet.
Quote from: evil_erdlu on March 24, 2010, 06:47:14 PM
.....
They're still more observant than warriors. They're still better riders than warriors can ever become and that includes taming wild mounts. They're still the only ones that can 'wilderness-quit'. They still, though modest, receive healing and poisoning abilities. They're still the best skinners. They are still the only class that can 'forage food'. They're still the masters of wilderness-stealth and counter-stealth. They receive additional crafting abilities that warriors can't get.[edited to add]They have maxxed archery, a.k.a wilderness backstab.[/edited to add]
....
Yes.. Ability to use poisons with perfect archery that hurts real bad from afar coupled with perfect ability to hide and sneak outdoors
and being able to detect the opponent is sneaking/hiding is... useless. Rangers could only stay alive becuse they could travel around in darkness.
By the way, my fresh ranger had just been approved. I can assure you, it has less wisdom and agility from possibly all of your characters have. I got in a storm only after buying what would be logical to buy to save myself from a storm.
Result: Got lost only once,
about 40[recounted]23[/recounted] rooms traveled.
Quote from: BlackMagic0 on March 25, 2010, 07:07:38 AMFrom what I heard, is with the new code/skill, can not lead people anymore at all. They get lost even if you don't, and you get lost in the lowest of the storms. Eh...
Yes. Rangers can't lead people through storms at all anymore. They get lost constantly.
I for one think that all ranger and warrior skills should be lumped into one class and leave it at that. Let the players develop the character as they like.
If you think this change benefits warriors at the expense of rangers in any significant way, you've never played a good warrior or a good ranger.
A good ranger will still wtfpwn a good warrior out in the desert, storm navigation be damned.
This is just a temporary nuisance, people. Two weeks from now when your storm nav. is maxed out, you won't be complaining about it.
Quote from: BlackMagic0 on March 25, 2010, 04:30:58 AM
Why play a ranger? When can be a warrior/desert walk subguild? -shrugs-
If you think desert walk is what divides rangers from warriors, I think you've missed the point. Warriors are soldiers that are good at one thing: Combat. Rangers are scouts that are good at just about everything you need in the desert.
To paraphrase the ranger helpfile, here are things a ranger can do that a warrior can't: Track animals (and people), see things only 2-3 other classes can, hear things, forage food and water, use poisons, cure poisons, climb almost any surface, bandage their wounds, move through the desert unseen, and several other things.
Rangers are simply the most versatile class in the game - they can do just about anything - and giving one of their unique abilities to other classes doesn't make that any less true.
OK
Quote from: Nyr on March 25, 2010, 08:32:53 AM
Quote from: BlackMagic0 on March 25, 2010, 07:07:38 AMFrom what I heard, is with the new code/skill, can not lead people anymore at all. They get lost even if you don't, and you get lost in the lowest of the storms. Eh...
Yes. Rangers can't lead people through storms at all anymore. They get lost constantly.
Because I don't want to spread misinformation, please read this as sarcasm, and not the mean and biting kind--more like the droll, empty repeating of something that is definitely hyperbole.
:)
One thing I find amusing is that 90% of peoples reasons are that rangers are still uber involove their ability to PK in the desert. :o
And here I thought Arm was about more then just PK. ::)
Quote from: netflix on March 25, 2010, 10:28:12 AM
One thing I find amusing is that 90% of peoples reasons are that rangers are still uber involove their ability to PK in the desert. :o
And here I thought Arm was about more then just PK. ::)
Arm is about more than being über. But überness and PK ability are closely linked.
Actually, uberness is a measure of how well they can kill what would be in their way in the desert, and sometimes that happens to be a PC. The only reason that PK is the focus is because the comparison is Ranger vs Warrior, so why not put them head to head instead of discuss which NPCs one would easily take while the other has difficulty?
Quote from: netflix on March 25, 2010, 10:28:12 AM
One thing I find amusing is that 90% of peoples reasons are that rangers are still uber involove their ability to PK in the desert. :o
And here I thought Arm was about more then just PK. ::)
A ranger is, by definition, a hunter. He kills to live. His ability to kill effectively in a desert environment is what makes him uber. (And... sweaty mudsex between the city-bred aide and the rough, hardened veteran who lives pretty much like an animal.)
So, when folks say that 'I'll rather pick a warrior and the subguild', the response 'In the desert ranger still ownz j00' is unavoidable. :)
Note: The board announces that I've been ninja'ed.. I'll still post.
To all the rangers feeling really crappy - I get it. But, just provide feedback constructively and be objective. Look at it this way, even if you are totally thick and can't figure out what "gear" you should wear - in very little time the code will be tweaked and/or your rangers will have maxxxed perfect storm navigate again. I mean - how long does it take to pump sneak if you just WALK AROUND?
They made a change that really at the end of the day make the game more REALISTIC and more PLAYABLE for more players. The problems will get ironed out if you *help*. Type time, type weather, type eq then send a log.
Really - it will be okay. Chillax.
So far no problem, but so far, no opportunity to put it to the *serious* test. My one and only *true* concern is if my character actually fails that test. Because, there's just no way I'm gonna RP it out. I will use the OOC command if I have to, but I'm not going to play the "the fact that I have never failed in the 3 game-years this character has existed, was just pure happenstance and it's inevitable that my character would suddenly not be particularly good, but will be exactly perfect again, after another few RL days of spam-practicing" game.
First off, the requirement of gear for a person that should have an innate ability (rangers) I find repugnant. Second Some or even all of the gear is not always IC for the PC or the PC situation. Third, Morg could have and IMO should have left the ability innate in rangers while having a skill for the subs. fourth, If I would have wanted to settle for an imperfect wilderness PC I would have made something other then a ranger.
X-D, perhaps you can explain why it should be some innate magickal ability to not get lost in the storm or in the dark. Guilds are skill-sets, primarily, or at least they are for all mundane guilds... like ranger.
You see it that way, I do not.
First, it has been my experiance IRL that you either have a sense of direction...or you do not. Research on the subject also shows the same thing. Some people can always know the direction they are facing even blindfolded, drugged, drunk, spun around, Some people do not.
Next, think about your PC as a person for a moment. Or at least pretend you are making a Fallout char or something.
Your growing up in your tribe/city what have you. You find you enjoy beating the tar out of people, animals what have you. You find that you are even good at it. But you also find early on that when you get out of sight of camp you have to yell for help to find it again.
Time goes by, you get old enough to join with the group/job that you are going to identify with for the rest of your life. Do you turn to the group of hunters who often have to travel alone? Or do you turn to the warriors who stay at camp guarding it and fighting off beasts and raiders, who when they travel to take on another tribe do so in large war parties?
Certain abilities, will point you in certain directions. And in a world where failing often means death, you are NOT going to pick something you cannot do well in...and if you do...well, odds are you would not make adulthood.
Okay, in that case, perhaps you could explain why everyone with a sense of direction should also have the same skill set as everyone else that has a sense of direction?
Quote from: X-D on March 25, 2010, 12:22:31 PM
First off, the requirement of gear for a person that should have an innate ability (rangers) I find repugnant.
I'm pretty sure that throughout history people who have had to regularly go through harsh sandstorms acquired bits of gear which made this difficult job more possible for them to do. They might have protested some if you sent them out in a loincloth.
Quote from: X-D on March 25, 2010, 12:22:31 PM
Second Some or even all of the gear is not always IC for the PC or the PC situation.
Why should weather care what's IC for your character? I don't like using umbrellas too much but I get pissed on if I don't.
Quote from: X-D on March 25, 2010, 12:22:31 PM
Third, Morg could have and IMO should have left the ability innate in rangers while having a skill for the subs. fourth, If I would have wanted to settle for an imperfect wilderness PC I would have made something other then a ranger.
As a ranger you'll start with a high level of skill once properly equipped and with a little practice you won't have to worry at all. You'll be alright with your slightly imperfect wilderness PC I think.
QuoteOkay, in that case, perhaps you could explain why everyone with a sense of direction should also have the same skill set as everyone else that has a sense of direction?
Eh, I'm not fighting that point anymore, as you might have noticed by my last few posts. Fine, give it to subs, Give it to subs as a skill, whatever. I can see somebody maybe taking different routes, or having a direction sense that is not quite flawless, or maybe not a type that lets them fit with the elite hunters.
Again taking RL. My sister has a talent, She can always point towards home. You can blindfold her in a room without windows, spin her around, stop her randomly, spin her the other way, stop her randomly and she will turn and point, to within a few degrees, towards where she lives. And this woman could not tell you north from south with a compass in hand. Now, is that a ranger quality talent....No, but it still allows her to safely travel.
QuoteAs a ranger you'll start with a high level of skill once properly equipped and with a little practice you won't have to worry at all. You'll be alright with your slightly imperfect wilderness PC I think.
Actually...No, I won't.
Quote from: X-D on March 25, 2010, 12:48:32 PM
Stuff
Your argument is pretty weak, X-D. Sense of direction, sure, but that's using visual clues. Where the sun is, light vs dark horizons, familiar terrain etc. Dollars to donuts you take anyone and put them 100 miles under the ground in a pitch-black cavern and tell them to walk 'north' they'll be unable to, outside of blind luck (your sister included).
Humans do not have an innate sense of direction like migratory birds. Some people are better than others, but this is not some innate sense. Your ranger is still better situated than other guilds. It's just not guaranteed. How horrible.
Quote from: X-D on March 25, 2010, 01:03:17 PM
My sister has a talent, She can always point towards home. You can blindfold her in a room without windows, spin her around, stop her randomly, spin her the other way, stop her randomly and she will turn and point, to within a few degrees, towards where she lives. And this woman could not tell you north from south with a compass in hand. Now, is that a ranger quality talent....No, but it still allows her to safely travel.
Probably could have won her a million dollars, too, back when the Randi foundation had their challenge active.
Quote from: Marc on March 25, 2010, 01:05:58 PM
Quote from: X-D on March 25, 2010, 12:48:32 PM
Stuff
Your argument is pretty weak, X-D. Sense of direction, sure, but that's using visual clues. Where the sun is, light vs dark horizons, familiar terrain etc. Dollars to donuts you take anyone and put them 100 miles under the ground in a pitch-black cavern and tell them to walk 'north' they'll be unable to, outside of blind luck (your sister included).
Humans do not have an innate sense of direction like migratory birds. Some people are better than others, but this is not some innate sense. Your ranger is still better situated than other guilds. It's just not guaranteed. How horrible.
The thing is that it *is* guaranteed. Let's be clear - the goal of the staff was that rangers remain able to navigate storms without trouble. Granted you will need gear, but won't take much to acquire and even if you absolutely cannot acquire it you'll only need for at most 3 rl days. And if you find otherwise and send staff a log - they'll even *gasp* fix it.
I can understand the frustration of playing a 25+ ranger and suddenly having fails - but it's just not going to last - so whats the big deal?
Was there an IC reason for the ranger's flawless navigation abilities before this change? Why were they born with compasses in their heads and why didn't everyone else get one?
Why should all rangers, regardless of background (and considering I believe I've seen guild_rangers with widely varied backgrounds, from common soldiers to horticulturists picking guild_ranger, background is pretty important here) receive the flawless ability to travel through storms if they are unprepared for the trip? Why can't your seasoned traveler with perfect direction_sense ability be a special app with the right background now?
Of all the explorers in the world, you -never- hear them going without landmarks or some form of tool for navigation. It's just unheard of. Especially when everything looks the same, such as on the seas, an accurate compass or other form of checking location (sun, stars, etc) is required or you're just as stranded as a first-time sea-goer. Navigation is most definitely a skill, not some innate ability like magick.
Does everyone have the background to navigate? Nope, especially in a world where wandering a couple hundred cords outside the gates can have you killed. If you have the background to navigate expertly, you should more than likely be a ranger guild anyway. The addition of the skills to the subguild also reinforces that navigation is a skill.
One thing I'd like tweaked is walking in darkness. A person can be an expert navigator on the seas, but they're just the same as everyone else trying to walk in darkness. A separate skill for moving in pitch darkness (as well as fighting in darkness or blind) should go hand in hand, either together or by branching one from the other.
One other thing that I've noticed for the first time just yesterday. It happened when my character was walking in the -city- and couldn't even manage to get to a building two rooms away because the winds/storm was so fierce. Has that ever happened before this code went into place?
Google-fu!
Quote from: X-D on March 25, 2010, 12:48:32 PM
You see it that way, I do not.
First, it has been my experiance IRL that you either have a sense of direction...or you do not. Research on the subject also shows the same thing. Some people can always know the direction they are facing even blindfolded, drugged, drunk, spun around, Some people do not.
http://www.headstrong.com.au/Blog/~B1-180/Brain_research_are_you_losing_your_sense_of_direction_or_losing_your_mind
Sense of direction is just like other senses. It detoriates with age and it can be sharpened, we read from this article even though it's not completely revelant.
http://www.expressnews.ualberta.ca/article.cfm?id=4481
Yey... it's not 100% revelant, but reading it we understand sense-of-direction is a learned quality which can be improved.
We just learned sense of direction which can be improved but in every person it is different. Then, there
can be warriors with significantly better sense of direction. A warrior/<whatever subguild offers sense of direction> is plausible and logical.
Quote from: X-D on March 25, 2010, 12:48:32 PM
Certain abilities, will point you in certain directions. And in a world where failing often means death, you are NOT going to pick something you cannot do well in...and if you do...well, odds are you would not make adulthood.
A warrior
must be really competent in fighting. But he starts as a n00b. He improves and to stay alive, he just needs to pick his fights. He doesn't die simply because he doesn't start the game as an uberwarrior.
A ranger
must be really competent in finding his direction. But he starts as a n00b. He improves and to stay alive, he just needs to pick his fights.(against the environment) He doesn't die simply because he doesn't start the game as an uberpathfinder.
A warrior/armorcrafter may make some nice armor. But he needs to have the best, he either finds Salarr or a master armorcrafter.
A warrior/<sense of direction guild> may wander around barely hindered. But he needs to travel too close to Red Storm, he finds a ranger.
Alright, First off, Never hear about them going without landmarks? Untrue, You maybe never have, I have. Hell Semper, I just got done reading two articles of people navigating in stormy seas without equipment...Bleh.
Also, Current and past research on human directional sense is, at best in Dispute. Researchers actually have found that Humans DO possess the same equipment as other animals like birds and such, in the brain and face. The point in Dispute is if we actually use them or not.
Oh, and more GOOGLE-FU
http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2000/07/05/148725.htm (http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2000/07/05/148725.htm)
http://www.jstor.org/pss/2744059 (http://www.jstor.org/pss/2744059)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetoception (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetoception)
And the warrior starts out crappy at fighting so a ranger must start out crappy at direction is LAME.
They BOTH start out crappy at fighting.
Direction is a prerequisite to even starting to become a ranger, it would be pretty maxxed in childhood or you would never get to the rangering part.
Except, according to Morg, you don't start out as a ranger with crappy pathfinding and with a little gear augmentation you should be fine. This is all a storm in a teacup that any noob ranger could find their way out of.
Quote from: evil_erdlu on March 25, 2010, 01:23:35 PM
A ranger must be really competent in finding his direction. But he starts as a n00b. He improves and to stay alive, he just needs to pick his fights.(against the environment) He doesn't die simply because he doesn't start the game as an uberpathfinder.
Explain the mass amnesia as veteran Rangers suddenly forgot how.
A blip that'll be forgotten about in a few days? Unless you're the grudge holding sort maybe.
Morg is not playing a ranger, I am, and the starting path finding sucks.
The gear sucks too. None of them are actually meant to help in a sandstorm, Bright light, Sure.
Many of you ask if people have been in sand/dust storms. Then pull up videos and crap, big deal, We deal with them many times a year where I live, and I tell you, the only Gear that will help you at all is a good pair of airtight goggles and a compass or GPS. And even with the goggles I cannot see any farther in a sand/dust storm then I can without them, it just hurts less. If polerized against red, that helps some, But I don't see polerized goggles arriving in Zalanthas any time soon.
I really just want to know what this magick suit that EVERY RANGER PC WILL NOW BE WEARING is.
I feel like a noob.
This seems like the same arguments as when the bug to parry was fixed... ::)
Quote from: Boggis on March 25, 2010, 01:41:41 PM
A blip that'll be forgotten about in a few days? Unless you're the grudge holding sort maybe.
Heh, people on here know that I almost never complain. Hell, I barely play anymore.
However, this change threatens the verisimilitude of the game. The immersion. I read in a previous post this happened to skinning too at some point, but I wasn't around or aware of that change. It's also less life threatening.
Really, imagine in a desert world if all of a sudden every hunter and tracker in the land (no matter how old or experienced) wakes up one day confused as hell in a storm?
For me it's not about sharing the skill, but how it was implemented. You're probably right, in a few weeks this will be old hat and everyone will be wearing sun slits. Yay. I maintain that if you're going to take a unique skill and broaden it's application, give the guild that originally had it an average of their other skills in that "new" skill. That way you introduce the change without kicking immersion in the stones.
http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2000/07/05/148725.htm
Oh nice.. Interesting.. But so what? Everyone has the instinct, some know better use of that. Several people have 20/20 vision but not all of them are sharpshooters. A lot of people are muscular but not all of them are Bruce Lee. If there's a research that claims some people have magnetoception and some don't, I'd like to see that one.
So; 0% sense of direction: You do not trust/distinguish your instinct. City folk.
50% sense of direction: You feel the urge inside and you learn to walk the way you felt, instead of the direction that seems to be the correct one. But you can't always distinguish the true instinct.
100% sense of direction: You can distinguish your sixth sense perfectly. In darkness, you can find your apartment room from deep Grey Forest without a sweat.
http://www.jstor.org/pss/2744059?cookieSet=1
Only the first page? So, now we know people may find their directions in harsh conditions. Maxxed out bastards, they are.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetoception
..... evidence remains ambiguous.... delete the whole third link. Evoked responses, something I used to like to read about. It's not revelant so I did not dig further.
Edit: Uh.. found this one. http://www.sinnesphysiologie.de/download/magrev05.pdf but it'll take some time to read and digest it I guess.
Quote from: Morgenes on March 24, 2010, 08:32:23 PM
Quote from: X-D on March 24, 2010, 08:27:20 PM
Really now Morg, what is the reason Vet rangers are not getting the skill boosted to a level fitting play time?
Same reason they didn't get a boost to starting trample. Same reason other guilds don't get starting boosts when new skills are introduced. You're expected to play it through. Wave your hands, call it a ret-con, whatever you like, but for all intents and purposes you never were any better at this than you are now. Welcome to your new reality.
It really doesn't matter what arguments people want to put out, this is more or less the (new) bottom line.
X-D, I encourage you to try it again, and if you can provide logs and feedback to my email. You were one of the first people to use the code and it has already been revised twice in the last 36 hours. Please don't take what you got as the first test to be the way it will always be.
I am actively tweaking this and have the ability now to walk along with someone having issues and see exactly how the calculations are being done to see if there are more issues. Of course right now I can't find a sand storm in the entire known world, so I can't do anything with it.
FWIW, Ranger's starting direction sense is HIGHER than the cap on any sub-guild that gets it. Even without gear, a starting ranger should be really good with navigating in a standard storm. The more powerful the storm, the worse it'll be, but still a far cry better than anyone else.
IMO the advantage of this change is it gives more people the ability to navigate storms (even some mitigation for those that don't have the skill) to improve playability and allow people to not be stuck should a storm come up. Will it still be an inconvenience, probably, but will it mean you can't go out because it's stormy, not as likely.
QuoteFinally, humans either lack magnetoreception
or are not consciously aware of it5, so our own sensory
experiences provide little intuitive insight into where
magnetoreceptors might be found.
We could trust this one.
It's from http://www.sinnesphysiologie.de/download/magrev05.pdf . I believe we can trust this one, being written as an academic study by actual Department of Biology tutors.
Sorry Morg, as I said in my email, I'm not really trying to be a prick on this matter.
But Going from perfect to newb in a single reboot...twitch.
That and really, I'm starting to feel the weight of feature creep...and I don't much like it.
This change might very well enhance playability, most in the past few years IMO, do not. And the number of things I don't like about arm passed the number of things I do several months back.
Still, I love my PC, that might keep me for a while yet, I'll log in later and do some testing...with logs this time.
Quote from: X-D on March 25, 2010, 02:10:19 PM
Sorry Morg, as I said in my email, I'm not really trying to be a prick on this matter.
But Going from perfect to newb in a single reboot...twitch.
That and really, I'm starting to feel the weight of feature creep...and I don't much like it.
This change might very well enhance playability, most in the past few years IMO, do not. And the number of things I don't like about arm passed the number of things I do several months back.
Still, I love my PC, that might keep me for a while yet, I'll log in later and do some testing...with logs this time.
Until the next reboot when the fix goes in, you're going to have problems even as your skill increases. Morg posted something about this a few pages back and I'm pretty certain that there has been no reboot yet (can't check from work.) So, please hold tight. I'm fairly confident that when the bug fix goes in you'll be much better and, as your new skill increases, you'll be perfect again.
So, the good news is, XD, that until the fix goes live you'll get plenty of chances to fail and skill up your newb skill. If the MUD has rebooted in the past 12 hours and you're still having less than 50% success, I otherwise suggest you email Morg with some logs so he can find out if there are more issues he wasn't previously aware of.
We rebooted this morning to get some fixes in and to enhance my logging ability. I am still looking for a guinea pig that is wandering the storms to test with. If you happen to be on and travelling in a sandstorm, feel free to wish up in the next hour or so and I'll watch if I can.
Testing now....So far, better then last time.....
Blinding storms with a non-ranger, non-direction sense character that had the right equipment...wow, nice. So much more playable, and I had no problems leading someone around really (although he is a ranger)
I haven't had a chance yet to adequately test this change IG, so I have no real opinion on it yet...I ALSO haven't had a chance yet to read the many pages already in this thread, but I have something I'd like to clarify....sorry if it's been covered in one of the previous responses...
Is this direction sense skill an actual perception skill that should appear on the skills list of my ranger?
Or is it just a skill I have that is automatically used when necessary?
Quote from: manipura on March 27, 2010, 01:43:57 PM
I haven't had a chance yet to adequately test this change IG, so I have no real opinion on it yet...I ALSO haven't had a chance yet to read the many pages already in this thread, but I have something I'd like to clarify....sorry if it's been covered in one of the previous responses...
Is this direction sense skill an actual perception skill that should appear on the skills list of my ranger?
Or is it just a skill I have that is automatically used when necessary?
It should appear in your skill list if you are a ranger or have one of the subguilds that get it.
Just expressing my love again.
I love you, Morgenes.
I understand how this might irritate the folks who are the perpetual ranger playing sort...
...but I feel this is the best playability code change made since I started playing a few years back.
For anyone that's ever wanted to play a desert elf warrior in a tribe where the player base cannot insure the constant presence of a ranger to guide them through the threat of blinding weather, this is a fantastic change. A huge thank you, Morgenes.
The only improvement I would desire is that -all- desert elves would have this skill at least at the subguild cap... and perhaps that desert elf rangers should not require the extra equipment in order to have perfect storm navigation (excluding "tremendous" sandstorms).
Quote from: Sunburned on March 29, 2010, 02:06:55 PM
I understand how this might irritate the folks who are the perpetual ranger playing sort...
...but I feel this is the best playability code change made since I started playing a few years back.
For anyone that's ever wanted to play a desert elf warrior in a tribe where the player base cannot insure the constant presence of a ranger to guide them through the threat of blinding weather, this is a fantastic change. A huge thank you, Morgenes.
You are welcome, I'm glad it's helping you play more.
Quote from: Sunburned on March 29, 2010, 02:06:55 PM
The only improvement I would desire is that -all- desert elves would have this skill at least at the subguild cap... and perhaps that desert elf rangers should not require the extra equipment in order to have perfect storm navigation (excluding "tremendous" sandstorms).
All rangers when they fully get the skill to it's cap should have almost no problem with all but truly tremendous sandstorms without gear. With gear they should never fail in sandstorms.
Yeah thanks for forcing everyone to buy [redacted].
Quote from: KankWhisperer on March 29, 2010, 11:45:31 PM
Yeah thanks for forcing everyone to buy [redacted].
You would think that in a desert world, people would start with them
[redacted]
Quote from: KankWhisperer on March 29, 2010, 11:45:31 PM
Yeah thanks for forcing everyone to buy [redacted].
[redacted] used to useless, now they serve a purpose and the game is more playable and flexible. Double win.
I don't care if everyone else can find their way in the storm just don't take away my ability.
Also having played a guide and now losing everyone really sucks too.
I have edited posts in here that is spreading IC knowledge. Please do not do so, being upset that your cheese has moved is not an excuse. If we had wanted that to be common knowledge we would have added it to the helpfiles. I see more of this behavior and I will be banning accounts.
Well you are staff but I still think you are wrong.
I think you are making what should be common knowledge super sekret find out IC knowledge.
Then you put [items in question] in [locations in question] that you probably need [items in question] to get to in the first place.
Quote from: KankWhisperer on March 30, 2010, 12:33:13 AM
Well you are staff but I still think you are wrong.
I think you are making what should be common knowledge super sekret find out IC knowledge.
Then you put [items in question] in [locations in question] that you probably need [items in question] to get to in the first place.
There are PC-craftable versions of [item in question] but ironically you can only acquire the materials from [location in question] or [location where it practically never storms hard enough to need {item in question}].
Nice addition. Now nobody is going to guild-sniff my rangers ever again. ;D
Just poked through the helpfiles to see which subs get direction sense.
Subguild scavenger should get it, if they don't already (it isn't noted in the helpfile).
First line of help scavenger is: "Scavengers, skilled at surviving in the wilds...." That's just as strong a claim to it as rebel or forester.
Quote from: Synthesis on March 30, 2010, 01:31:58 AM
Just poked through the helpfiles to see which subs get direction sense.
Subguild scavenger should get it, if they don't already (it isn't noted in the helpfile).
First line of help scavenger is: "Scavengers, skilled at surviving in the wilds...." That's just as strong a claim to it as rebel or forester.
Can't help but agree.
I'm actually not sure why foresters have it. Does chopping wood in the grey forest really teach you how to navigate harsh storms? The thicker the vegetation, the less sand there will be blowing around anyway.
The scavenger helpfile goes on to give an example of "wilds" ... "the ruins of Tuluk." I'm not sure how much the tomb-raiding skillset overlaps with navigating sandstorms. However, I think it makes more sense for scavengers to have it than foresters. Kinda hard to take away from foresters now, though.
Quote from: Rhyden on March 30, 2010, 01:25:16 AM
Nice addition. Now nobody is going to guild-sniff my rangers ever again. ;D
The chubby employer tells you, in Sirihish:
"But I love roots and mushrooms very much. Can you go gather some for me from time to time?"
Joking aside, I had had a few more chances to try the sandstorm code, even though this time it was a tiny stormy area. The changes to the code seems to take into account that rangers are rangers. You can fail once in a blue moon in weak storms and that's all.
Quote from: Synthesis on March 30, 2010, 01:15:07 AM
Quote from: KankWhisperer on March 30, 2010, 12:33:13 AM
Well you are staff but I still think you are wrong.
I think you are making what should be common knowledge super sekret find out IC knowledge.
Then you put [items in question] in [locations in question] that you probably need [items in question] to get to in the first place.
There are PC-craftable versions of [item in question] but ironically you can only acquire the materials from [location in question] or [location where it practically never storms hard enough to need {item in question}].
Bears repeating, perhaps:
Quote from: Lizzie on March 24, 2010, 10:30:04 AM
I added..the part about the new player. My main point was in response to Morgenes saying a new character (as in, straight out of chargen), *properly equipped* would have no trouble. And that is true. But a new character straight out of chargen isn't capable of being properly equipped, unless said character has access to said equipment. Which - isn't an option in some parts of the game.
Quote from: Nyr on March 24, 2010, 10:33:03 AM
We're looking at that too. :) Given the desert world and all, you'd think such things would be more available.
So we can assume <item> is going to be available in more places soon. Of course if you feel a particular merchant should sell <item> you could always do an "idea <merchant> This dude should totally sell <item>! It would make sense. Awesome."
Quote from: Morgenes on March 30, 2010, 12:26:28 AM
. . . being upset that your cheese has moved is not an excuse. If we had wanted that to be common knowledge we would have added it to the helpfiles. I see more of this behavior and I will be banning accounts.
lol self help book reference
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Moved_My_Cheese%3F
I agree with the sentiment that it shouldn't be some super sekrit piece of gear and it should be common knowledge. I also believe that it should be very common and available in any settlement in some shape or form. I don't want to see it become something like masks that hid main descs used to be. If you make it too secret and rare, people will start unrealistically killing each other over said items.
"Let's see...I can kill this motha fucka and take his...here and now, or I can travel through storms, gith, elves, etc. for a couple days -and- pay for one..."
It doesn't really seem so hard for a newbie to figure out though. I mean ... really.
The help files say proper equipment can really help out.
The newbie gets in game and noticies the skill is low and sucking and asks another PC in game about what kind of equipment they can get to help out.
The other PC tells them.
-or-
The other PC doesn't, and later either a different PC does or they just see it on another PC and put two and two together on their own.
Lets leave the newbies at least a "little" detective work :D
I did the groundwork for figuring out where these are rare. Expect some changes soon.
I enjoy the Ranger class and would feel jipped if someone was making it useless. This skill does not make it useless, that is like saying giving combat to other classes makes warriors useless.
I know not a single admin in this community, but it is my assumption they at least think through two steps ahead and made rangers the uber on this skill, so you will still go to them if you need a guide, but just like when you can't afford that 50 day warrior guard and need the 4 hour burglar one, there will be others with a weak version of the skill to at least -survive-, although I see the admin keeping any free happy living to the rangers. I could be completely wrong though. As for outside quit, that is the one and only thing I don't ever want to see shared with Rangers, it gives them purpose.
Sure I could use a 3 day warrior to just HnS the cave, but since he can't quit out instead I'll need a 20 day ranger to sneak, snipe, run, bandage, climb, and finally quit out so I can continue my long journey to death tomorrow. And that makes the game fun to me.
Okay. I'm playing a 90+ day ranger. Because of some IC reasons I don't ride out too much lately. So, how am I supposed to get back to my old level? What reason could make my PC to break the IC rules to twink that said skill. I had the chance to ride in the gritty storm at 25th and lost my hitched mounts. Which was terribly annoying at the given time. Because while trying to gather one back I lost the other. Here are my two questions:
First: Can someone please explain me what hitching a mount means? I always thought I was tying their reins to the saddle of the one I'm mounting. If that's the case how can they get lost, even in a blinding storm when they are tied to me.
Second: Somebody please tell me how my PC can be able to ride through the storms with no trouble once again, as he's supposed to be after playing 10+ IG years or 90+ playing days.
Quote from: Naruto on March 30, 2010, 01:25:41 PM
First: Can someone please explain me what hitching a mount means? I always thought I was tying their reins to the saddle of the one I'm mounting. If that's the case how can they get lost, even in a blinding storm when they are tied to me.
You are correct, this is a bug, and I've got a fix ready to go in with the next reboot. Hitched mounts shouldn't wander off.
Quote from: Naruto on March 30, 2010, 01:25:41 PM
Second: Somebody please tell me how my PC can be able to ride through the storms with no trouble once again, as he's supposed to be after playing 10+ IG years or 90+ playing days.
It's a skill, you're going to have to work it up if you want to be perfect at it. There is gear that you can obtain that would help you in the meantime, but in doing so you may make it so you don't learn, and won't be the best you can be at it naturally, which has other reprecussions, but I'll leave that up to you guys to figure out.
Quote from: Cutthroat on March 30, 2010, 08:09:57 AM
So we can assume <item> is going to be available in more places soon. Of course if you feel a particular merchant should sell <item> you could always do an "idea <merchant> This dude should totally sell <item>! It would make sense. Awesome."
Exactly.
Quote from: Morgenes on March 30, 2010, 01:55:14 PM
You are correct, this is a bug, and I've got a fix ready to go in with the next reboot. Hitched mounts shouldn't wander off.
Thats actually pretty awesome as well because there was this odd catch 22 going on for non-rangers in a storm whereby if you mounted in the storm you'd probably spend a lot of time falling and if you dismounted then odds are you were going to lose your mount :). Nice.
Quote from: Naruto on March 30, 2010, 01:25:41 PM
Okay. I'm playing a 90+ day ranger. Because of some IC reasons I don't ride out too much lately. So, how am I supposed to get back to my old level? What reason could make my PC to break the IC rules to twink that said skill.
The grizzled, squint-eyed man stands just inside the gates and looks out over the dusty plains in the distance.
Running his thumb along the brim of a dusty wide-brimmed hat, the grizzled, squint-eyed man says, in sirihish:
"Son, the desert is like a lover. When a man is young he spends all his time with her and learns her curves and her sighs and the way she moves and her endless beauty."
The grizzled, squint-eyed man turns his head and spits ruminatively on the ground.
Wistfully. the grizzled, squint-eyed man says, in cowboy-accented sirihish:
"Been many a year since she and I met. Many a year."
Looking down at the fresh, eager youth, the grizzled, squint-eyed man takes off his dusty wide-brimmed hat.
Holding it out, the grizzled, squint-eyed man gives his dusty wide-brimmed hat to the fresh, eager youth.
The grizzled, squint-eyed man nods once.
The grizzled, squint-eyed man wears [REDACTED] on [REDACTED].
The grizzled, squint-eyed man tells the fresh, eager youth, in cowboy-accented sirihish:
"Tell your mother... tell her I'm going out to meet a friend."
The grizzled, squint-eyed man walks west, with a curious bow-legged stride.
The fresh, eager youth holds his dusty wide-brimmed hat in both hands, staring west.
The fresh, eager youth thinks:
"God all this fucking melodrama over a storm. I hate you old man."
The fresh, eager youth utters an incantation.Anyway I'm sure you won't have any problem finding a reason for your 90+ day ranger to ride out. And if not, well, then I guess he's out of practice since he doesn't ride out too much lately.
Aren't there multiple items that should give a bonus to storm navigation? I can think of at least four off the top of my head.
Quote from: drunkendwarf on March 31, 2010, 07:36:55 PM
Aren't there multiple items that should give a bonus to storm navigation? I can think of at least four off the top of my head.
Feel free to email me and we can discuss.
Did this actually make it possible for a ranger to get lost in a normal storm at max skill level?
I like the direction_sense skill, but what is the reason at losing your followers?
I think a traveling group with limited vision would travel very close to each other (might hold onto each other and what not) which would let them to stick to each other.
Quote from: Yam on April 06, 2010, 07:10:14 PM
Did this actually make it possible for a ranger to get lost in a normal storm at max skill level?
Absolutely not.
Quote from: Ghost on April 06, 2010, 07:32:11 PM
I like the direction_sense skill, but what is the reason at losing your followers?
I think a traveling group with limited vision would travel very close to each other (might hold onto each other and what not) which would let them to stick to each other.
Rangers have a strong change of keeping everyone together, especially if they are equipped properly.
So, keeping the party together depends on the guide's skill level?
This actually just gave my character a whole lot more utility than I expected.
Me rikey!
Quote from: Ghost on April 06, 2010, 08:02:02 PM
So, keeping the party together depends on the guide's skill level?
That would make sense to me.
Really, it does?
So what, is the guide a sheepdog herding the people in front of him or something? Or maybe he glows so they can see him but if his skill is lower the glow flickers on and off?
Yeah it's really irratating for me that someone codedly following you still has a chance of getting lost. As was said before, if you're holding hands ... or all holding onto the same piece of rope like school children do ... however you want to RP it ... it seems silly that folk get lost trying to follow along after you.
That's how we got from point A to B in sandstorms in the FARPs I was in, in Iraq. A rope that linked location A to location B and you held on and followed it through the darkness. I would imagine that someone guiding people through a storm would employ a similiar method, because it's common sense.
I would prefer it the folks following you automatically succeed if you do. Ie, you don't get lost, they don't get lost. For reasons of realism, playibility, and utility, all rolled into one.
They should stick with you no matter what, if you take a wrong step, they all take a wrong step with you.
Quote from: X-D on April 07, 2010, 04:17:18 AM
They should stick with you no matter what, if you take a wrong step, they all take a wrong step with you.
I'd agree with this. However, I'd make movement slower to simulate the difficulty in keeping a group together - maybe they're tethered together with rope, or have to pause occasionally to make sure everybody is still keeping up. The movement delay could be factor of the ranger's skill, the severity of the storm and the size of the group that they are attempting to lead.
Quote from: Boggis on April 07, 2010, 06:15:37 AM
Quote from: X-D on April 07, 2010, 04:17:18 AM
They should stick with you no matter what, if you take a wrong step, they all take a wrong step with you.
I'd agree with this. However, I'd make movement slower to simulate the difficulty in keeping a group together - maybe they're tethered together with rope, or have to pause occasionally to make sure everybody is still keeping up. The movement delay could be factor of the ranger's skill, the severity of the storm and the size of the group that they are attempting to lead.
+1. I would take having an increased movement delay based on how large the party you're leading is and the weather, in exchange for having your followers able to follow you, for better or worse, wherever you're heading. Again, this sounds like it's just win/win/win all around in terms of realism, playibility, and utility.
Maybe impliment a "tether" or "hold hands" command so parties only get lost together?
On the other hand, many years ago I successfully suicided a character by purposely getting lost from the group.
Apologies!
It has always been (to my knowledge) that if you "failed" in a storm and someone was following they would go off their own random direction. I imagine this is to simulate parties being separated due to winds etc. This isn't new - if you've ever played a warrior trying to lead another non-ranger through the desert you would have experienced this. It's one of the things that makes experienced trackers and guides so valuable. I mean, it used to be that even if you were leading your hitched mount you could lose it. I'm not really sure I understand the shock and awe here. But, keeping things positive -
From a realism point of view - this makes sense. It should happen. You don't have a rope or a road or anything guiding you and someone getting blown off the trail because they don't have the right skills or gear seems perfectly reasonable. However, from a playability point of view - there have been times where I've wished this happened much less. IE - I agree wish Musashi here in that in theory, if we were on a hitched mount train it would be much less likely that the party is scattered to the four cardinal directions then it would be that the party leader simply lost his way. I wouldn't want to get rid of this effect all together - but I'd like to see it significantly dampened.
The rule in my opinion should be that if you are following someone, your chances of getting lost are based on their skill but reduced by some power to indicate that it is more difficult for the group to get separated then it is for the group (together) to get lost.
**Edited for clarity.
Even without a rope, holding hands or locking arms would make getting scattered in a storm next to impossible. This is one of those times where I actually know, because I've been in sandstorms in the middle of the desert, and that was our SOP. We never lost anyone.
Quote from: musashi on April 07, 2010, 01:58:21 PM
Even without a rope, holding hands or locking arms would make getting scattered in a storm next to impossible. This is one of those times where I actually know, because I've been in sandstorms in the middle of the desert, and that was our SOP. We never lost anyone.
Hmmm. Not that I doubt you (I don't) but I'm thinking it probably depends on the force of the wind no? Like think - katrina hurricane winds filled with sand and debri - I'd have to think that even holding hands it'd be possible for you to get the line broken and lose someone. Granted - it would be really hard for you to just wander off. But the idea of someone getting hit with debris and losing the hand hold or falling and rolling in low visibility would be impossible to simulate with arm code. The idea of someone following you getting redirected a room is probably as close as we can get.
Well, with katrina you would have a lot more to worry about than losing your direction, regardless of ranger or whatever gear you have.
If the wind is strong enough to lift you up and carry you away, it should do so for every mundane guild out there. But losing direction because of visibility level, that is a different story, and in my opinion, it should not be tearing the groups apart.
Yeah, Ghost? In the worst sandstorms out there, you have a lot more to worry about than getting turned around too, like flying sand that is abrasive enough to act like sandpaper to the point of taking all the flesh from your bones in less than a day. You think those winds aren't as bad as the ones recorded in hurricane Katrina?
I think people should really consider how insane a real sandstorm is. Most of us haven't been anywhere near a sandstorm like can develop in game. They're super-scary, crazy-destructive forces of nature. Having to take precautions and be skilled? To all those that are complaining of this change, "Good," I say, "Deal with it and stop whining."
Quote from: spawnloser on April 07, 2010, 05:43:05 PM
Yeah, Ghost? In the worst sandstorms out there, you have a lot more to worry about than getting turned around too, like flying sand that is abrasive enough to act like sandpaper to the point of taking all the flesh from your bones in less than a day. You think those winds aren't as bad as the ones recorded in hurricane Katrina?
What I am saying is, with that powerful winds, we should not be discussing about who will lose direction or whose group will scatter. Everyone would be flying around then, ranger or gear or not.
But if we are talking about someone being able to find his way through limited vision (storm, darkness or what have you), then a group following him should follow him no matter what.
On the flip side, your average Zalanthan is far, far more sturdy and rugged then anyone on Earth. We're talking about folks who can take a spear to the gut and be up like nothing happened the next day. People who rarely get sick, who can live through the direst of poisons, who only eat once every five days and then stuff their face with an amount of food that's easily four times the stomach capacity of even the bulkiest of sumo wrestlers. And let's forget that even the the most incompetent of Bynners is still powerful enough to keep a tankard perfectly balance in their aba so not a single drop spills!
Seriously though, most all of this seems to be PCs laying on what "they think" a nasty Zalanthan sandstorm was like. If it were really that bad though, to your average Zalanthan, I'd imagine the staff would have it set up so there'd be far less visibility, and a lot more damage taken for just being outside in one. If they were that nasty, something like ___ or ___ designed to be able to help navigate would do little good, cause the exposed eyes under such an assault of speed-of-sound would be hollowed out in a heartbeat.
And for the people who will inevitably say "well, thats just done for playability sake", to them I say, quite possibly! But that doesn't change the fact it -is- that way, and that's the way we gotta play it. So a big nasty storm, aye, quite windy, aye, enough to cut visibility and block out the sky and terrain and make you lost, aye. But not much more.
I'd be all for taking damage in storms, but only if they were smaller and less frequent. (for the sake of playability). I remember when I first fell off my mount and took damage, I didn't notice that I fell and thought I was taking damage in the Storm (I didn't have a wrap or a hood) and I was like "sweet - sand and heat damage".
That said - for the record, I'm for either change to follow. Either making it flawless or reducing the failure rate to account for locked arms, ropes etc.
The fact is - is regardless of the katrina example of musashi's point - character(s) *would* think of this and at the least it *would* help. So, either having equipment that does it or coding it in as a "given" seems wise.
**Edited 10 times because I'm to dumb to use preview. Sigh.**
I am always entertained by the number of people that believe the myths of sandstorms removing flesh.
It does not happen. You can hold your hand in front of a sandblaster safely at a range of around 16 inches from the tip, at that point the sand is moving at around 100 miles an hour. Over double what the sand is moving at in even a zalanthan sandstorm.
Zalanthan storms cannot be much over 50mph sustained top end, Sand moves at about 70% wind speed. Higher then gale force and you cannot move against it and 60+ will pick up large objects, a far greater danger then blowing sand.
So, since you can easily move through even the highest storm level the world has to offer means it is around 40mph, a sand speed of around 36mph, far from deadly, painful, sure, but not much else.
After taking some time to make sure, I cannot find a single RL recorded instance of a sandstorm removing flesh in even a weeks time, let alone a day.
That all being said, the people following the guide need only do just that, follow the guide, it is his job to find route, direction etc. His skill should have nothing to do with if the followers get scattered or not. As a matter of fact, The watch skill should be modded so that if it is used along with follow on the guide you have no chance of losing the guide no matter the guides skill.
Quote from: X-D on April 07, 2010, 06:45:04 PM
I am always entertained by the number of people that believe the myths of sandstorms removing flesh.
It does not happen. You can hold your hand in front of a sandblaster safely at a range of around 16 inches from the tip, at that point the sand is moving at around 100 miles an hour. Over double what the sand is moving at in even a zalanthan sandstorm.
Zalanthan storms cannot be much over 50mph sustained top end, Sand moves at about 70% wind speed. Higher then gale force and you cannot move against it and 60+ will pick up large objects, a far greater danger then blowing sand.
So, since you can easily move through even the highest storm level the world has to offer means it is around 40mph, a sand speed of around 36mph, far from deadly, painful, sure, but not much else.
After taking some time to make sure, I cannot find a single RL recorded instance of a sandstorm removing flesh in even a weeks time, let alone a day.
Yeah, for reals. I even answered an Ask the Staff question on this. Don't make me grep stuff. I will do it.
Look what you made me do.
Quote from: Nyr on September 08, 2008, 11:55:37 AM
Quote from: Desertman on September 05, 2008, 11:01:34 AM
Alrighty, another one for you guys.
How strong are the winds in a Zalanthan sandstorm by category? (How many mph does the wind blow when a sandstorm of the magnitudes listed below is present?)
Pretty strong winds, though strong winds don't necessarily mean there is a sandstorm. Take that how you will.
Quote
Stinging Sands
Terrible Biting
Blinding
We won't be giving out actual numbers (nor have we ever.) Use a good guess about those to get an idea.
The more terrible it sounds, the more terrible it likely is.
Quote
Also, would a Zalanthan sandstorm have the ability to rend the flesh from one's bones?
When I hear that, the scene from Raiders of the Lost Ark comes to mind--you know, the guy with his face melting off.
Sand is an irritant to skin. Sand traveling at high speeds can irritate skin more than sand that isn't traveling at high speeds.
Sure, it could damage eyes, sensitive skin (perhaps abrasions).
Primary components of a sandstorm: wind, dust/sand.
Secondary dangers: things that wind can carry (like pieces of wood, bone--people, perhaps, at high wind speeds), blinding effect of no visibility from sand obscuring light, lung damage from high dust intake (which can be protected against to some extent), damage to arable land, etc.
The causes of death and injury from sandstorms appear to be more from secondary complications.
I always imagine/roleplay the visibility like the fight at the end of Gangs of New York. If someone fell and was 10 feet from you, you could lose them. Then I imagine winds that could knock you off your feet. Wind that you have to lean into and trudge through arm over your face.
Realistic or not, it gets me by.
In my experience, elves are the greatest danger in Zalanthan sandstorms.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on April 08, 2010, 12:48:16 AM
In my experience, elves are the greatest danger in Zalanthan sandstorms.
It's actually the most accurate way to gauge the strength of a storm. In common parlance, a heavy storm might be referred to as a "twelve-elver" while a lighter one might only be a "six elf." The dreaded "Scores-o'-elves" storms, occurring only in the far reaches of the wilderness, have been known to rip boots right off a round-ear without him feeling it.
"Oh, had a bad storm on the way up then, eh?"
"Tha's th' feckin' truth! 'Twer a five score-o'-elves storm, at least. Elves so thick it blocked out th'sun. Took th'beetles right out from under us wit'out us even noticin' fer a few leagues."
A lot has ben said since I posted but I just wanted to tackle a few points in turn.
Quote from: jmordetsky on April 07, 2010, 04:59:52 PM
Hmmm. Not that I doubt you (I don't) but I'm thinking it probably depends on the force of the wind no? Like think - katrina hurricane winds filled with sand and debri - I'd have to think that even holding hands it'd be possible for you to get the line broken and lose someone. Granted - it would be really hard for you to just wander off. But the idea of someone getting hit with debris and losing the hand hold or falling and rolling in low visibility would be impossible to simulate with arm code. The idea of someone following you getting redirected a room is probably as close as we can get.
I think this is a misconception on your part, the bit about the code not being able to represent strong winds I mean. Not to give too much away about the game, but if you ever find your PC in a room with actual wind factor strong enough to uproot them from the ground, the code will SERIOUSLY let you know. This is already in game. So I'm forced to believe that since sandstorms don't do that ... it must mean we are getting lost in storms not from being blown away, but from a lack of visibility and being disoriented. Nyr went ahead and confirmed this after your post I believe ... sand storms are not rending flesh and bone ... if they were meant to, it would be coded that way. It has been coded that way in the areas that are supposed to have storms that terrible, as some of the more foolhardly explorers in the game likely know. So I don't buy that arguement.
Quote from: spawnloser on April 07, 2010, 05:43:05 PM
Yeah, Ghost? In the worst sandstorms out there, you have a lot more to worry about than getting turned around too, like flying sand that is abrasive enough to act like sandpaper to the point of taking all the flesh from your bones in less than a day. You think those winds aren't as bad as the ones recorded in hurricane Katrina?
I think people should really consider how insane a real sandstorm is. Most of us haven't been anywhere near a sandstorm like can develop in game. They're super-scary, crazy-destructive forces of nature. Having to take precautions and be skilled? To all those that are complaining of this change, "Good," I say, "Deal with it and stop whining."
Again ... speaking as someone who spent over a year in the deserts of our world, dealing with the kinds of sandstorms we see in those really cool google pictures ... I feel pretty comfortable saying you're the one misinformed here. Sorry dude. Sandstorms don't disentegrate people, and if the Zalanthan sandstorms were supposed to, the code would be set up that way, because it's well within the code's ability to represent.
So for the above reasons, I'm still of the opinion that folks should follow the person they are following reguardless, and let the guide lead them where he will, for better ... or worse ... depending on how skilled an outdoorsman he is.
QuoteI'm still of the opinion that folks should follow the person they are following reguardless, and let the guide lead them where he will, for better ... or worse ... depending on how skilled an outdoorsman he is.
The only reason I could see losing track of someone would be because of everyone being mounted.
Quote from: Gagula on April 08, 2010, 06:20:25 AM
QuoteI'm still of the opinion that folks should follow the person they are following reguardless, and let the guide lead them where he will, for better ... or worse ... depending on how skilled an outdoorsman he is.
The only reason I could see losing track of someone would be because of everyone being mounted.
Very valid counter point. And I would not mind in the slightest if folks had to dismount and trek through harsh storms on foot in order to not get spun around and lost. I'd prefer it, in fact.
That way only groups of badass rangers could move together mounted through storms.
Quote from: musashi on April 08, 2010, 06:35:15 AM
Quote from: Gagula on April 08, 2010, 06:20:25 AM
QuoteI'm still of the opinion that folks should follow the person they are following reguardless, and let the guide lead them where he will, for better ... or worse ... depending on how skilled an outdoorsman he is.
The only reason I could see losing track of someone would be because of everyone being mounted.
Very valid counter point. And I would not mind in the slightest if folks had to dismount and trek through harsh storms on foot in order to not get spun around and lost. I'd prefer it, in fact.
That way only groups of badass rangers could move together mounted through storms.
This does sound pretty awesome.
Quote from: Majikal on April 08, 2010, 09:19:34 AM
Quote from: musashi on April 08, 2010, 06:35:15 AM
Quote from: Gagula on April 08, 2010, 06:20:25 AM
QuoteI'm still of the opinion that folks should follow the person they are following reguardless, and let the guide lead them where he will, for better ... or worse ... depending on how skilled an outdoorsman he is.
The only reason I could see losing track of someone would be because of everyone being mounted.
Very valid counter point. And I would not mind in the slightest if folks had to dismount and trek through harsh storms on foot in order to not get spun around and lost. I'd prefer it, in fact.
That way only groups of badass rangers could move together mounted through storms.
This does sound pretty awesome.
That actually isn't a bad idea at all.
I don't mind that either...and use watch.
Old man gets lost in Canadian [sand] storm
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/saskatchewan/story/2010/04/09/sk-wind-elderly-knocked-down.html?ref=rss (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/saskatchewan/story/2010/04/09/sk-wind-elderly-knocked-down.html?ref=rss)
muhahahaa
Why can rangers no longer lead folks through storms? Its based off their desert nav skill?
So now rangers desert sense, means nothing to employers. Since they get lost?
Or need it mastered to lead folks?
Also I think you should be able to hitch a animal, and let someone mount it, to guide them through a storm. Since can't follow you anymore.
Quote from: BlackMagic0 on April 17, 2010, 11:32:41 PM
Why can rangers no longer lead folks through storms? Its based off their desert nav skill?
Rangers now give a "bonus" to storm nav for those following, that bonus being dependant on the actual skill level of the ranger in need. Those following will also really need those "special items" in those "special circumstances" or even the best of rangers with a maxed skill is still going to have a hard time leading a group through a storm without a few getting lost.
Quote from: netflix on April 17, 2010, 11:34:35 PM
Quote from: BlackMagic0 on April 17, 2010, 11:32:41 PM
Why can rangers no longer lead folks through storms? Its based off their desert nav skill?
Rangers now give a "bonus" to storm nav for those following, that bonus being dependant on the actual skill level of the ranger in need. Those following will also really need those "special items" in those "special circumstances" or even the best of rangers with a maxed skill is still going to have a hard time leading a group through a storm without a few getting lost.
So ranger skill is checked, then a boost is given to all those following him.
So even with max skill, a ranger can most likely not lead a tregil through a storm. Unless got most 'special items' in game?
I dislike that. A lot.
Though if you could hitch your mount, and let someone else ride it. That would help- if guiding one person. Then could just guide creature- which follows automagicklly.
Quote from: BlackMagic0 on April 17, 2010, 11:37:04 PM
Quote from: netflix on April 17, 2010, 11:34:35 PM
Quote from: BlackMagic0 on April 17, 2010, 11:32:41 PM
Why can rangers no longer lead folks through storms? Its based off their desert nav skill?
Rangers now give a "bonus" to storm nav for those following, that bonus being dependant on the actual skill level of the ranger in need. Those following will also really need those "special items" in those "special circumstances" or even the best of rangers with a maxed skill is still going to have a hard time leading a group through a storm without a few getting lost.
So ranger skill is checked, then a boost is given to all those following him.
So even with max skill, a ranger can most likely not lead a tregil through a storm. Unless got most 'special items' in game?
I dislike that. A lot.
Though if you could hitch your mount, and let someone else ride it. That would help- if guiding one person. Then could just guide creature- which follows automagicklly.
I think you're misunderstanding the change. Have you read the announcement and the things that Morgenes has written about it since the announcement, plus any changes?
Quote from: Nyr on April 18, 2010, 10:37:45 AM
Quote from: BlackMagic0 on April 17, 2010, 11:37:04 PM
Quote from: netflix on April 17, 2010, 11:34:35 PM
Quote from: BlackMagic0 on April 17, 2010, 11:32:41 PM
Why can rangers no longer lead folks through storms? Its based off their desert nav skill?
Rangers now give a "bonus" to storm nav for those following, that bonus being dependant on the actual skill level of the ranger in need. Those following will also really need those "special items" in those "special circumstances" or even the best of rangers with a maxed skill is still going to have a hard time leading a group through a storm without a few getting lost.
So ranger skill is checked, then a boost is given to all those following him.
So even with max skill, a ranger can most likely not lead a tregil through a storm. Unless got most 'special items' in game?
I dislike that. A lot.
Though if you could hitch your mount, and let someone else ride it. That would help- if guiding one person. Then could just guide creature- which follows automagicklly.
I think you're misunderstanding the change. Have you read the announcement and the things that Morgenes has written about it since the announcement, plus any changes?
I've been trying to catch up on all of it, as when was put in. Did not effect me. But, yes.
Though also talking about new personal experience too..
Am still reading all through this discussion, and such.
Quote from: BlackMagic0 on April 17, 2010, 11:37:04 PM
Though if you could hitch your mount, and let someone else ride it. That would help- if guiding one person. Then could just guide creature- which follows automagicklly.
I think this is an awesome idea btw. All that would have to be changed is to make it so that anyone can mount the animal regardless of who it's hitched to but it can only be controlled by whomever has the reins. That would be a realistic and useful addition.
Quote from: jhunter on April 18, 2010, 10:54:30 AM
Quote from: BlackMagic0 on April 17, 2010, 11:37:04 PM
Though if you could hitch your mount, and let someone else ride it. That would help- if guiding one person. Then could just guide creature- which follows automagicklly.
I think this is an awesome idea btw. All that would have to be changed is to make it so that anyone can mount the animal regardless of who it's hitched to but it can only be controlled by whomever has the reins. That would be a realistic and useful addition.
+1
Speaking from experience of a ranger with advanced storm navigation and plus what I believe are the items specified... We were suck in a storm where the people who were following me simply could NOT stay with me. They moved all over the place, with the exception of the ONE other who was a ranger. We were stuck out there for over 2 IG days, unable to get everyone out of the storm.
And before anyone freaks out on me mentioning sekrit IG stuff, only clannies were with me, and they already know my GBD name thanks to the clan boards.
Getting lost as a ranger is fine. Your followers scattering in numerous directions is NOT. If the leading ranger gets lost, all followers should STILL go the same direction as the ranger. Add to that other classes poor riding ability, made even worse in a storm... Nightmare.
Send me a log with what people were wearing and the weather command interspersed and I can investigate, but it sounds like they weren't properly equiped
The crusty byn sarge says to his troops, " Alright, today because it is storming, Trooper Malik will be leading us."
Trooper malik says, "Oh how many are there sarge?"
Crusty byn sarge says, "Gonna be six of us total."
Trooper malik says, "Oh, then I have to get supplies, you all meet me at the gates with your mounts in two hours."
Time passes, everybody is at the gates, trooper malik arrives.
Trooper malik begins passing out pink sunbonnets.
Trooper malik says, "Alright, you all have to wear these otherwise you will not be able to follow me."
The entire group looks at malik like he is crazy of course.
Crusty byn sarge holds up a pink sunbonnet and says, "Your kidding, I'm not wearing this, why anyway."
Trooper malik says, "I don't know...it is proper equipment, for some unknown reason your feet will not go in the direction you want without it."
Crusty byn sarge says, "Then what do we need you for...forget it, everybody to latrine cleaning!"
Well, everyone going out, even with a guide, should be prepared for the weather, whether that means wearing pink sunbonnets or anything that actually makes sense to wear.
Ideally:
- Following a person with a higher direction sense than you should give you a boost based on their direction sense. Not 100% of what their skill is, but some hefty fraction of it.
- Followers should be equipped for desert travel. I don't think it's a lot to ask to wear desert gear before you go to the desert.
Quote from: Cutthroat on April 30, 2010, 01:12:45 PM
Well, everyone going out, even with a guide, should be prepared for the weather, whether that means wearing pink sunbonnets or anything that actually makes sense to wear.
Ideally:
- Following a person with a higher direction sense than you should give you a boost based on their direction sense. Not 100% of what their skill is, but some hefty fraction of it.
- Followers should be equipped for desert travel. I don't think it's a lot to ask to wear desert gear before you go to the desert.
I've thought about this more since my last post - I think from a playability point of view - we should assume Musashi's suggestion that people are tethered, holding hands etc. Ie, the ranger can get lost but the followers cannot. Man - otherwise - byn trips etc are going to suck really badly due to the availability of said item(s).
Quote from: jmordetsky on April 30, 2010, 02:35:05 PMdue to the availability of said item(s)
Availability (as of this morning) should be much less of a problem; inquire at likely locations in either city-state or Red Storm.
Without getting too ic, and reinforcing the points made by staff so far, I have to say the code is probably on the money.
I was playing someone that had perfect navigation. I am now playing someone with subguild direction sense. I have no idea what you guys are doing wrong. I've had no problems, but then I've been wearing desert gear when going out in the desert and the same for those going with me.