Discussion for Change to Storm/Darkness navigation

[Morgenes]

Also, if properly equipped, a newb ranger should not get lost in storms, ever.  If you are concerned about this feel free to send me a log including what you are wearing.  Rangers lost sone innate ability, but they are still the best option for reliable storm and darkness navigation.  They still have the best chance of keeping a properly equipped party together, especially as they gain skill.  I'm sorry if you are upset that you have a new skill to train where you were perfect before, but I think it makes sense that it is a skill they need to work on and develop.

As with many changes we make, nothing is set in stone, we can and will make tweaks to this as we see how it is working out, but I still feel like this will work out over time.  Send in logs if you would like to contribute, make sure you hce done an equipment and several weather commands along the way.

[netflix]

I don't suppose the negative impact of wearing the particular type of worn object that until this change only gave role-play benefits for storm navigation have been removed? Cause if not, rangers are getting sorta doubly gut-punched.

[netflix]

Also, does this have any effect on a ranger's ability to lead -others- through storms?

Ie, if a ranger gets lost, do those following him just go into the wrong room with him, or will they now possibly scatter depending on skill level?

[Cutthroat]

The change is great - let's at least give it time to see it in action before we say it makes rangers worse. The ride changes weren't so bad.

I'm just curious if it will affect ranger's ability to lead a group as a guide through the outdoors. If it's still possible to do without the followers having this new skill, then it seems alright to me.

Edit: Oops, didn't see this had a second page. My curiosity was sated on the second.

[Morgenes]

I don't suppose the negative impact of wearing the particular type of worn object that until this change only gave role-play benefits for storm navigation have been removed? Cause if not, rangers are getting sorta doubly gut-punched.

send me an email and we can discuss

[Pale Horse]

This is pretty awesome.

For me personally, I don't really care that all of a sudden the perfect ability to navigate was lost from the ranger guild..for a time.  At least until a ranger actually goes out and starts walking around in a storm..and building up the skill just by moving.

Heck, considering what the weather is currently like in certain parts of the game world, this should be easier to skill up in than a mage sitting in a secluded area and spam casting.

[Krath]

I mostly agree with X-D.

I just dont see the purpose of giving other classes this skill.

I dont believe the system was broke, but I have dealt with it
over a decade.

[Nyr]

For me personally, I don't really care that all of a sudden the perfect ability to navigate was lost from the ranger guild..for a time.

I haven't played with this at all, nor have I looked at the code on it, but:

Also, if properly equipped, a newb ranger should not get lost in storms, ever.  If you are concerned about this feel free to send me a log including what you are wearing.  Rangers lost sone innate ability, but they are still the best option for reliable storm and darkness navigation.  They still have the best chance of keeping a properly equipped party together, especially as they gain skill.  I'm sorry if you are upset that you have a new skill to train where you were perfect before, but I think it makes sense that it is a skill they need to work on and develop.

As with many changes we make, nothing is set in stone, we can and will make tweaks to this as we see how it is working out, but I still feel like this will work out over time.  Send in logs if you would like to contribute, make sure you hce done an equipment and several weather commands along the way.

Bolded for emphasis.

[Niamh]

Have any of you ever actually been in a sandstorm IRL, much less tried to get around in one?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1447064212122697074#docid=198431427204215378
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1447064212122697074#docid=950306408463909262

There are a few other related videos linked from these.  In the second video here, you hear one of the people saying, "Light to dark, just like that."  And if you've ever seen the movie Stargate, there is a scene where a sandstorm hits, and they practically close up the entire city, with everyone heading indoors to take cover from the storm.

[Lizzie]

if properly equipped, a newb ranger should not get lost in storms, ever.

Unbolded, because a newb ranger can't BE properly equipped. If he could, he wouldn't be a newb ranger. Also, a newb -player- wouldn't know what this equip is, that would allow his ranger to be "properly equiped" and wouldn't know to ask in game about it. Particularly if he is in one certain city, he will not even have access to the PCs who could provide this item to him, IF he happened to get lucky and learn of its existence.

[Morgenes]

Fwiw, I have already tweaked this, which is what we rebooted for this morning.  I encourage you to try this out before condeming, but I realize that not everyone can be made happy.

[Semper]

This is a -great- addition to the game. I found it highly unreasonable to have one guild only with maximum ability to ride through the most horrible sands while -all- other guilds could not. This spreads out the playing field and, as mentioned multiple times, there are ways to boost a ranger's ability should they require the extra aid.

Even more-so than meeting a raider or a magicker, an unprepared traveller in the desert should realize how slim their chances of survival is. Yes, it does drag playability down somewhat, but gives a much greater sense of realism and roleplay I think.

RE: Lizzie
They are -new- rangers. I don't see how the argument that a new ranger should be able to walk through a blinding sandstorm straight from the beginning holds sand. Just as with magickers or warriors or merchants with some of their key skills.

[A Dry, Quiet War]

A very sensible change. Thanks, Morgenes.

For the record (and the naysayers), I got no problem with giving low-capped main-guild skills to subguilds, as long as they can't get close to the guild's full awesomeness in its area of specialization.  I want warriors with backstab, assassins with storm navigation, rangers with disarm, merchants with city hide, and pickpockets with pidgin-cavilish.  The old grey men of the GDB will momentarily point out the unbeatable, game-breaking combos here, and, yeah, those need to be taken into account, but I positively adore the potential benefits in guildfuscation.

For me, fewer clear-cut boundaries between guilds means more immersion.  I do not like having to think about other characters as Rangers, Warriors, and Mages.

[Dar]

Hello.

I must admit, I dont particularly like the change. Not because the skill is not flawless or whatever, I just dont like that now not only rangers have the ability to navigate storms. Exactly, storms are "debilitating". If you want, strip rangers from their ability to be "flawless" at navigating storms, but dont give 'non' rangers even a semblance of that ability. Keep rangers 'vital' for any travelling organizations. Make leaders actually busy up to set themselves up with a guide. Be it a tribal you know, a trooper you rented out from the Byn, a grebber you force-conscripted as your templar leads the Arm out. It creates so much more employment opportunities. I would personally be more interested in having storms being more sporadic. Meaning that outwaiting them becomes a normal strategy, that doesnt rob your playing time of an hour+. And no I'm not playing a ranger.


I will admit though, the changes in ride, have made rangers a "Scaaaaaary" powerful guild. But then ... I dont like that change either, shrug. Both changes are realistic and all, I wont argue that. But in terms of benefit to the game, I'd say they're more detractions then improvements.

[Nyr]

if properly equipped, a newb ranger should not get lost in storms, ever.

Unbolded, because a newb ranger can't BE properly equipped. If he could, he wouldn't be a newb ranger. Also, a newb -player- wouldn't know what this equip is, that would allow his ranger to be "properly equiped" and wouldn't know to ask in game about it. Particularly if he is in one certain city, he will not even have access to the PCs who could provide this item to him, IF he happened to get lucky and learn of its existence.

Let me rephrase it to the way that it was intended.  Newb ranger for the previous paragraph was intended to mean "person who just apped in a new character with the guild ranger," not "person completely new to the game."  It would be silly for staff to expect that someone new to the game would pick the guild ranger and know exactly what things would be great to wear for dealing with sandstorms.  I understand that there was a misunderstanding about the meaning of the phrase "newb ranger," but in the case of new code going in and staff getting involved in the process, it might be best to clarify before launching into a stream of assumptions that then have to be dealt with so that discussion doesn't devolve further into non-issues.

[Lizzie]

I added..the part about the new player. My main point was in response to Morgenes saying a new character (as in, straight out of chargen), *properly equipped* would have no trouble. And that is true. But a new character straight out of chargen isn't capable of being properly equipped, unless said character has access to said equipment. Which - isn't an option in some parts of the game.

[Nyr]

We're looking at that too.   Given the desert world and all, you'd think such things would be more available.

[Dar]

I added..the part about the new player. My main point was in response to Morgenes saying a new character (as in, straight out of chargen), *properly equipped* would have no trouble. And that is true. But a new character straight out of chargen isn't capable of being properly equipped, unless said character has access to said equipment. Which - isn't an option in some parts of the game.

Honessstly Lizzie. A straight out of chargen ANY guild should probably not go out into the wild anyway. The storm might end up being the least of their problems. And as long as a newb ranger doesnt fail atleast 1/3 times, he'll be fine getting back home eventually, unless something bad happens. And well ... bad things happen, but that's what you get for leaving the city straight outtah chargen.

[Lizzie]

Dar, not everyone starts in cities. Tribals start in their camps, people who pick Luir's Outpost start in Luir's Outpost, and people who start in Red Storm start in Red Storm. There's also desert elves who start out in the Blackwing post. Also, what exactly do you expect a ranger to -do- if they don't leave the city? You're assuming every ranger PC starts in a city and joins a clan where training is provided in the safety of a compound. This just plain isn't the case, and in some situations, there aren't even practice dummies to work with.

Rangers are rangers, in part, -because- they can do things that other classes can't do, or do them in a particular combination that other classes can't combine. The "specialization" of rangers has just been lessened somewhat. I don't consider that rangers have been nerfed, at all. I'm not complaining about this change. However, I am a little disappointed that something that used to be the exclusive domain of my favorite class, is no longer exclusive. It was one of those things that made it special. Not the only thing, but one of them. Now, it's just slightly less special. Not a deal breaker by a long shot, but..just a mild disappointment. I would've liked to see only certain other classes get this ability; such as whirans and rukkians, and the hunter subguild (for example) - and everyone else remain as is.

Also, I'm glad the staff is working on making a certain item more available. I'm assuming it's the one I'm thinking of, and hope that it will be -appropriately- avaiable.

[tortall]

Not everyone starts in cities. Tribals start in their camps, people who pick Luir's Outpost start in Luir's Outpost, and people who start in Red Storm start in Red Storm. There's also desert elves who start out in the Blackwing post. Also, what exactly do you expect a ranger to -do- if they don't leave the city?

Rangers are rangers, in part, -because- they can do things that other classes can't do, or do them in a particular combination that other classes can't combine. The "specialization" of rangers has just been lessened somewhat. I don't consider that rangers have been nerfed, at all. I'm not complaining about this change. However, I am a little disappointed that something that used to be the exclusive domain of my favorite class, is no longer exclusive. It was one of those things that made it special. Not the only thing, but one of them. Now, it's just slightly less special. Not a deal breaker by a long shot, but..just a mild disappointment.

Also, I'm glad the staff is working on making a certain item more available. I'm assuming it's the one I'm thinking of, and hope that it will be -appropriately- avaiable.

All that, and.... I dunno. Just seems like rangers are getting nerfed yet again. Most warriors can easily survive in the wild if there is not a storm. Now others are going to get it? That and the boost to ride were two of the BIG reasons that I enjoy rangers.

I hold back further comments until I experience this IG for myself.

[Semper]

Players can still enjoy rangers. This doesn't detract anything from them, really.

Non-ranger guilds will still need rangers if they want to travel in groups. If alone, however, it gives greater flexibility to their play when out in the deserts and storm-prone locations.

I just think the players who are in the once-exclusive 'Rangers' club are just hating cause new members can join in the fun now. 

[Lizzie]

Players can still enjoy rangers. This doesn't detract anything from them, really.

Non-ranger guilds will still need rangers if they want to travel in groups. If alone, however, it gives greater flexibility to their play when out in the deserts and storm-prone locations.

I just think the players who are in the once-exclusive 'Rangers' club are just hating cause new members can join in the fun now. 

Yeah that's how I'm feeling about it, really. Once you play a ranger you get kind of possessive about the coolness of it. When you find out other people can do what you can, it's a let-down. But, I'd say that about magickers too. If the staff decided that everyone should be able to [redacted] or [redacted] then what would be so awesome about playing a [redacted]? I mean..take the whole POINT of playing something, and let everyone do it, and there goes the point. Right down the proverbial drain.

As I said, I don't see this as a deal-breaker and I still think playing a ranger is the most awesome thing in the game world. But, the awesomeness has just lost a few sids worth in value, because it's been given to everyone else.

[Akoto]

Personally, I am fine with other subguilds getting this ability. I would assume that, since this is a skill, their caps will be much lower than that of a ranger.

The only thing that bugs me a bit is the treatment of existing rangers. As I understand it, even 50-day rangers are going to suddenly get turned around in storms, whereas they've spent IC years as masters of the dunes. They'll have to rely upon the crutch of tools. I really think their navigation ability should've been grandfathered in by way of their skill level being improved or mastered, not simply for the older chars alone, but because it was a major selling point which led many to choose the guild.

[Lizzie]

From what I've interpreted of Morgenes' post (and what he specified), it's only -new- rangers (out of the box) who will rely on the crutch of tools to be flawless, and existing rangers should already be flawless (or nearly so), without said crutch.

[Nyr]

Comparisons between this thread and an older thread on a very similar subject are neat to see.