Discussion for Change to Storm/Darkness navigation

[Morgenes]

Aren't there multiple items that should give a bonus to storm navigation? I can think of at least four off the top of my head.

Feel free to email me and we can discuss.

[Yam]

Did this actually make it possible for a ranger to get lost in a normal storm at max skill level?

[Ghost]

I like the direction_sense skill, but what is the reason at losing your followers?

I think a traveling group with limited vision would travel very close to each other (might hold onto each other and what not) which would let them to stick to each other.

[Morgenes]

Did this actually make it possible for a ranger to get lost in a normal storm at max skill level?

Absolutely not. 

I like the direction_sense skill, but what is the reason at losing your followers?

I think a traveling group with limited vision would travel very close to each other (might hold onto each other and what not) which would let them to stick to each other.

Rangers have a strong change of keeping everyone together, especially if they are equipped properly.

[Ghost]

So, keeping the party together depends on the guide's skill level?

[Jingo]

This actually just gave my character a whole lot more utility than I expected.

Me rikey!

[Morgenes]

So, keeping the party together depends on the guide's skill level?

That would make sense to me.

[X-D]

Really, it does?

So what, is the guide a sheepdog herding the people in front of him or something? Or maybe he glows so they can see him but if his skill is lower the glow flickers on and off?

[musashi]

Yeah it's really irratating for me that someone codedly following you still has a chance of getting lost. As was said before, if you're holding hands ... or all holding onto the same piece of rope like school children do ... however you want to RP it ... it seems silly that folk get lost trying to follow along after you.

That's how we got from point A to B in sandstorms in the FARPs I was in, in Iraq. A rope that linked location A to location B and you held on and followed it through the darkness. I would imagine that someone guiding people through a storm would employ a similiar method, because it's common sense.

I would prefer it the folks following you automatically succeed if you do. Ie, you don't get lost, they don't get lost. For reasons of realism, playibility, and utility, all rolled into one.

[X-D]

They should stick with you no matter what, if you take a wrong step, they all take a wrong step with you.

[Boggis]

They should stick with you no matter what, if you take a wrong step, they all take a wrong step with you.

I'd agree with this. However, I'd make movement slower to simulate the difficulty in keeping a group together - maybe they're tethered together with rope, or have to pause occasionally to make sure everybody is still keeping up. The movement delay could be factor of the ranger's skill, the severity of the storm and the size of the group that they are attempting to lead.

[musashi]

They should stick with you no matter what, if you take a wrong step, they all take a wrong step with you.

I'd agree with this. However, I'd make movement slower to simulate the difficulty in keeping a group together - maybe they're tethered together with rope, or have to pause occasionally to make sure everybody is still keeping up. The movement delay could be factor of the ranger's skill, the severity of the storm and the size of the group that they are attempting to lead.

+1. I would take having an increased movement delay based on how large the party you're leading is and the weather, in exchange for having your followers able to follow you, for better or worse, wherever you're heading. Again, this sounds like it's just win/win/win all around in terms of realism, playibility, and utility.

[Sinna]

Maybe impliment a "tether" or "hold hands" command so parties only get lost together?

On the other hand, many years ago I successfully suicided a character by purposely getting lost from the group.

Apologies!

[jmordetsky]

It has always been (to my knowledge) that if you "failed" in a storm and someone was following they would go off their own random direction. I imagine this is to simulate parties being separated due to winds etc. This isn't new - if you've ever played a warrior trying to lead another non-ranger through the desert you would have experienced  this.  It's one of the things that makes experienced trackers and guides so valuable. I mean, it used to be that even if you were leading your hitched mount you could lose it. I'm not really sure I understand the shock and awe here. But, keeping things positive -

From a realism point of view - this makes sense. It should happen. You don't have a rope or a road or anything guiding you and someone getting blown off the trail because they don't have the right skills or gear seems perfectly reasonable. However, from a playability point of view - there have been times where I've wished this happened much less. IE - I agree wish Musashi here in that in theory, if we were on a hitched mount train it would be much less likely that the party is scattered to the four cardinal directions then it would be that the party leader simply lost his way. I wouldn't want to get rid of this effect all together - but I'd like to see it significantly dampened.

The rule in my opinion should be that if you are following someone, your chances of getting lost are based on their skill but reduced by some power to indicate that it is more difficult for the group to get separated then it is for the group (together) to get lost.

**Edited for clarity.

[musashi]

Even without a rope, holding hands or locking arms would make getting scattered in a storm next to impossible. This is one of those times where I actually know, because I've been in sandstorms in the middle of the desert, and that was our SOP. We never lost anyone.

[jmordetsky]

Even without a rope, holding hands or locking arms would make getting scattered in a storm next to impossible. This is one of those times where I actually know, because I've been in sandstorms in the middle of the desert, and that was our SOP. We never lost anyone.

Hmmm. Not that I doubt you (I don't) but I'm thinking it probably depends on the force of the wind no? Like think  - katrina hurricane winds filled with sand and debri - I'd have to think that even holding hands it'd be possible for you to get the line broken and lose someone. Granted - it would be really hard for you to just wander off.  But the idea of someone getting hit with debris and losing the hand hold or falling and rolling in low visibility would be impossible to simulate with arm code. The idea of someone following you getting redirected a room is probably as close as we can get.

[Ghost]

Well, with katrina you would have a lot more to worry about than losing your direction, regardless of ranger or whatever gear you have.

If the wind is strong enough to lift you up and carry you away, it should do so for every mundane guild out there.  But losing direction because of visibility level, that is a different story, and in my opinion, it should not be tearing the groups apart.

[spawnloser]

Yeah, Ghost?  In the worst sandstorms out there, you have a lot more to worry about than getting turned around too, like flying sand that is abrasive enough to act like sandpaper to the point of taking all the flesh from your bones in less than a day.  You think those winds aren't as bad as the ones recorded in hurricane Katrina?

I think people should really consider how insane a real sandstorm is.  Most of us haven't been anywhere near a sandstorm like can develop in game.  They're super-scary, crazy-destructive forces of nature.  Having to take precautions and be skilled?  To all those that are complaining of this change, "Good," I say, "Deal with it and stop whining."

[Ghost]

Yeah, Ghost?  In the worst sandstorms out there, you have a lot more to worry about than getting turned around too, like flying sand that is abrasive enough to act like sandpaper to the point of taking all the flesh from your bones in less than a day.  You think those winds aren't as bad as the ones recorded in hurricane Katrina?

What I am saying is, with that powerful winds, we should not be discussing about who will lose direction or whose group will scatter.  Everyone would be flying around then, ranger or gear or not.

But if we are talking about someone being able to find his way through limited vision (storm, darkness or what have you), then a group following him should follow him no matter what.

[netflix]

On the flip side, your average Zalanthan is far, far more sturdy and rugged then anyone on Earth. We're talking about folks who can take a spear to the gut and be up like nothing happened the next day. People who rarely get sick, who can live through the direst of poisons, who only eat once every five days and then stuff their face with an amount of food that's easily four times the stomach capacity of even the bulkiest of sumo wrestlers. And let's forget that even the the most incompetent of Bynners is still powerful enough to keep a tankard perfectly balance in their aba so not a single drop spills!

Seriously though, most all of this seems to be PCs laying on what "they think" a nasty Zalanthan sandstorm was like. If it were really that bad though, to your average Zalanthan, I'd imagine the staff would have it set up so there'd be far less visibility, and a lot more damage taken for just being outside in one. If they were that nasty, something like ___ or ___ designed to be able to help navigate would do little good, cause the exposed eyes under such an assault of speed-of-sound would be hollowed out in a heartbeat.

And for the people who will inevitably say "well, thats just done for playability sake", to them I say, quite possibly! But that doesn't change the fact it -is- that way, and that's the way we gotta play it. So a big nasty storm, aye, quite windy, aye, enough to cut visibility and block out the sky and terrain and make you lost, aye. But not much more.

[jmordetsky]

I'd be all for taking damage in storms, but only if they were smaller and less frequent. (for the sake of playability). I remember when I first fell off my mount and took damage, I didn't notice that I fell and thought I was taking damage in the Storm (I didn't have a wrap or a hood) and I was like "sweet - sand and heat damage".

That said - for the record, I'm for either change to follow. Either making it flawless or reducing the failure rate to account for locked arms, ropes etc.

The fact is - is regardless of the katrina example of musashi's point - character(s) *would* think of this and at the least it *would* help. So, either having equipment that does it or coding it in as a "given" seems wise.

**Edited 10 times because I'm to dumb to use preview. Sigh.**

[X-D]

I am always entertained by the number of people that believe the myths of sandstorms removing flesh.

It does not happen. You can hold your hand in front of a sandblaster safely at a range of around 16 inches from the tip, at that point the sand is moving at around 100 miles an hour. Over double what the sand is moving at in even a zalanthan sandstorm.

Zalanthan storms cannot be much over 50mph sustained top end, Sand moves at about 70% wind speed. Higher then gale force and you cannot move against it and 60+ will pick up large objects, a far greater danger then blowing sand.

So, since you can easily move through even the highest storm level the world has to offer means it is around 40mph, a sand speed of around 36mph, far from deadly, painful, sure, but not much else.

After taking some time to make sure, I cannot find a single RL recorded instance of a sandstorm removing flesh in even a weeks time, let alone a day.

That all being said, the people following the guide need only do just that, follow the guide, it is his job to find route, direction etc. His skill should have nothing to do with if the followers get scattered or not. As a matter of fact, The watch skill should be modded so that if it is used along with follow on the guide you have no chance of losing the guide no matter the guides skill.

[Nyr]

I am always entertained by the number of people that believe the myths of sandstorms removing flesh.

It does not happen. You can hold your hand in front of a sandblaster safely at a range of around 16 inches from the tip, at that point the sand is moving at around 100 miles an hour. Over double what the sand is moving at in even a zalanthan sandstorm.

Zalanthan storms cannot be much over 50mph sustained top end, Sand moves at about 70% wind speed. Higher then gale force and you cannot move against it and 60+ will pick up large objects, a far greater danger then blowing sand.

So, since you can easily move through even the highest storm level the world has to offer means it is around 40mph, a sand speed of around 36mph, far from deadly, painful, sure, but not much else.

After taking some time to make sure, I cannot find a single RL recorded instance of a sandstorm removing flesh in even a weeks time, let alone a day.

Yeah, for reals.  I even answered an Ask the Staff question on this.  Don't make me grep stuff.  I will do it.

[Nyr]

Look what you made me do.

Alrighty, another one for you guys.

How strong are the winds in a Zalanthan sandstorm by category? (How many mph does the wind blow when a sandstorm of the magnitudes listed below is present?)

Pretty strong winds, though strong winds don't necessarily mean there is a sandstorm.  Take that how you will.

Stinging Sands
Terrible Biting
Blinding

We won't be giving out actual numbers (nor have we ever.)  Use a good guess about those to get an idea. 
The more terrible it sounds, the more terrible it likely is.

Also, would a Zalanthan sandstorm have the ability to rend the flesh from one's bones?

When I hear that, the scene from Raiders of the Lost Ark comes to mind--you know, the guy with his face melting off.
Sand is an irritant to skin.  Sand traveling at high speeds can irritate skin more than sand that isn't traveling at high speeds. 
Sure, it could damage eyes, sensitive skin (perhaps abrasions).
Primary components of a sandstorm:  wind, dust/sand.
Secondary dangers:  things that wind can carry (like pieces of wood, bone--people, perhaps, at high wind speeds), blinding effect of no visibility from sand obscuring light, lung damage from high dust intake (which can be protected against to some extent), damage to arable land, etc.
The causes of death and injury from sandstorms appear to be more from secondary complications.

[jmordetsky]

I always imagine/roleplay the visibility like the fight at the end of Gangs of New York. If someone fell and was 10 feet from you, you could lose them. Then I imagine winds that could knock you off your feet. Wind that you have to lean into and trudge through arm over your face.

Realistic or not, it gets me by.