So, since there are two threads that currently have veered off into this area I thought I would make one discussion available to discuss where those have gone so those threads can get back to the original topic at hand.
In making this thread I request that we keep it civil and DO NOT post ANY IC sekrits. Let's try to keep this from getting locked as threads like this in the past have been.
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on March 12, 2010, 01:34:19 PM
Quote from: Salt Merchant on March 12, 2010, 12:35:36 PM
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on March 12, 2010, 02:36:24 AM
You don't see gemmed in Red's Retreat. Because it's socially above them.
Not true. You do see them there from time to time.
Emphasis mine.
Magickers are generally easily avoided, even in Allanak, if you aren't at the scumhole bar which they'd rightfully be at. Sure, I've had my share of mages go to Red's, but never, EVER to hang out downstairs in the bar. More like upstairs, out of general sight, for semi-private conversation.
I think it's fine the way it is now.
Quote from: Winterless on March 12, 2010, 02:00:55 PM
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on March 12, 2010, 02:36:24 AM
I don't see adding a bar for the gemmed being of much help.
Giving gemmers their own bar would be like giving them a viable station. Gemmers do not have a station, they are the lowest of the low, lower than rinthis and even half-elven scum, lower than a non-citizen. Forcing them to have to go to the dirtiest bar in town, read The Gaj, is fitting because it shows them what they will never acclimate to, even if that be a dirty elven rinther.
Quote from: Salt Merchant on March 12, 2010, 03:28:20 PM
Quote from: Winterless on March 12, 2010, 02:00:55 PM
Giving gemmers their own bar would be like giving them a viable station. Gemmers do not have a station, they are the lowest of the low, lower than rinthis and even half-elven scum, lower than a non-citizen. Forcing them to have to go to the dirtiest bar in town, read The Gaj, is fitting because it shows them what they will never acclimate to, even if that be a dirty elven rinther.
Sorry for the derail... Let's get this back to talking about a Karma System change.
This seems too extreme to me.
Whatever else people think, gemmed are citizens by the direct mandate of the Highlord and possess all the privileges of a citizen. They're not lower than a non-citizen; the criminal system treats them better (jail instead of death for petty crimes), for instance.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on March 12, 2010, 03:05:04 PM
Quote from: Gimfalisette on March 12, 2010, 02:54:34 PM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on March 12, 2010, 02:42:33 PM
I've always thought the tavern keepers should be scripted to make things uncomfortable for the gemmers, though. After all, they might be scaring off other customers. Jack up the prices for gemmers, make them sit at the shitty table in the corner and stay away from the bar, stuff like that. Gemmers should be allowed to hang out in taverns, but they shouldn't just be one of the many patrons sitting at the bar, having a good time. The other patrons shouldn't allow it, and the establishment owners shouldn't allow it.
Ugh. No. Seriously...no. It's already plenty "uncomfortable" enough for gemmed to be in public anywhere within Allanak. Having played a gemmer, having played around gemmers a lot over the last 3 years, there is no need for further reinforcement to the current environment. Gemmed is about the most socially-isolated role one can play within a city.
As they should be. Magickers are karma roles for a reason. I don't think we should accept that gemmers are more tolerated than they ICly should be just because Lonely McGemmer wants some interaction.
Quote from: WWYDI was typing up a post, but Gimf put it way better then I could have. It's seriously bad enough that some people are literally willing to deny you interaction (even the sort that involves shunning) because of what you wear on your throat location -- it doesn't need to get worse. The last time I played a gemmer, my only saving grace for interaction, inside Allanak, was the fact I was playing a Vivaduan, and most people passing through the elementalist's quarter would see me immediately.
Playing a gemmed magicker is completely voluntary. If you don't like the stigma that comes with the role, don't play it.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on March 12, 2010, 03:08:40 PM
Quote
Gemmed is about the most socially-isolated role one can play within a city.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on March 12, 2010, 03:05:04 PMAs they should be. Magickers are karma roles for a reason.
Completely faulty logic. Magickers are not karma roles because of the social isolation. Magickers are karma roles because they are codedly powerful. The fact that gemmed are automatically so socially-isolated is a large part of the reason why players would prefer to play hidden or rogue mages.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on March 12, 2010, 03:05:04 PMPlaying a gemmed magicker is completely voluntary. If you don't like the stigma that comes with the role, don't play it.
Unhelpful, and uncognizant of the true systems problems which lead to the unpalatability of the gemmed role.
Quote from: Marc on March 12, 2010, 03:27:01 PM
Quote from: Gimfalisette on March 12, 2010, 03:08:40 PM
Quote
Gemmed is about the most socially-isolated role one can play within a city.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on March 12, 2010, 03:05:04 PMAs they should be. Magickers are karma roles for a reason.
Completely faulty logic. Magickers are not karma roles because of the social isolation. Magickers are karma roles because they are codedly powerful.
I can't say I agree Gimf. Magickers are karma roles both because they are codedly powerful AND because they have the social restrictions. If you are playing a known magicker and being buddy buddy with everyone, you're doing it wrong (IMHO). It might be IC for you to kiss ass with everyone so you get shunned less, but it's the players responsibility to help maintain a certain level of fear and distrust with magick.
That's where, IMHO, the karma comes in. Trust enough not to drop thermal nukes on a tavern for the lols and trust enough to maintain a realistic representation and help reinforce 'DOCUMENTED' stereotypes.
P.S. This is not to say gickers all need to play stereotypes, not at all. But it is the players responsibility to play their magicker based on a world reacting to those stereotypes.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on March 12, 2010, 03:45:22 PM
Quote from: Marc on March 12, 2010, 03:27:01 PM
If you are playing a known magicker and being buddy buddy with everyone, you're doing it wrong (IMHO). It might be IC for you to kiss ass with everyone so you get shunned less, but it's the players responsibility to help maintain a certain level of fear and distrust with magick.
Please do not twist what I have said to make it sound like I am advocating for magickers "being buddy buddy with everyone." That is not what I said, and it is not what I would say. In fact, there are potential options along the roleplay continuum other than "complete social outcast" or "everyone's favorite fuckbuddy."
Currently, however, the game environment does not lend itself to those other options being played by gemmed. I would like to see more subtlety and less stupidity in interplay between mundanes and magickers, and that is the responsibility of each player, regardless of their PC's guild.
Quote from: Marc on March 12, 2010, 04:26:33 PM
My major point is the karma restriction is not JUST coded power. You are trusted to set the world mood by including a negative reaction from the npc/vnpc world. You, as the gemmed/known gicker, must include these negative responses to set an example for the rest of the player population to follow. If you, the Player, never emote people glaring/leering/spitting/shouting at your gemmed/known gicker then, IMHO, you are doing it wrong. That is where the trust comes in.
It is on you, not the other PC's, to set the mood. Why? Because you chose to bring the magickal element into the RP equation. That is not to say other PC's wont help. You will have players who have played similar roles and (hopefully) will add to the environment. But you cannot expect mundanes to step up. Why? Because they might not know HOW to react. They could be newbs to Armageddon and react in a totally inconsistent way to the documentation. Is reacting against documentation wrong? No, but you as the player of a gemmed/known magicker must counter act any exceptional reaction with one more along the documentations line. This is to maintain the feel of the world, your responsibility with karma.
This all ties into the OP. There is no definitive answer for the Red's, the Trader's. Practically anywhere in Allanak. Social rank and class determines everything and there are too many variables in that equation to have it black and white. But if you do go there, you need to RP the appropriate reaction. Let's just not assume that reaction is cutndry.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on March 12, 2010, 04:37:36 PM
Quote from: Marc on March 12, 2010, 04:26:33 PM
My major point is the karma restriction is not JUST coded power. You are trusted to set the world mood by including a negative reaction from the npc/vnpc world. You, as the gemmed/known gicker, must include these negative responses to set an example for the rest of the player population to follow. If you, the Player, never emote people glaring/leering/spitting/shouting at your gemmed/known gicker then, IMHO, you are doing it wrong. That is where the trust comes in.
It is on you, not the other PC's, to set the mood. Why? Because you chose to bring the magickal element into the RP equation. That is not to say other PC's wont help. You will have players who have played similar roles and (hopefully) will add to the environment. But you cannot expect mundanes to step up. Why? Because they might not know HOW to react. They could be newbs to Armageddon and react in a totally inconsistent way to the documentation. Is reacting against documentation wrong? No, but you as the player of a gemmed/known magicker must counter act any exceptional reaction with one more along the documentations line. This is to maintain the feel of the world, your responsibility with karma.
This all ties into the OP. There is no definitive answer for the Red's, the Trader's. Practically anywhere in Allanak. Social rank and class determines everything and there are too many variables in that equation to have it black and white. But if you do go there, you need to RP the appropriate reaction. Let's just not assume that reaction is cutndry.
I just can't agree. I am not, myself, particularly good at environmental emotes, nor do I really enjoy doing them. However, I have earned some karma for my play, almost none of which has included doing environmental/VNPC emotes, but much of which has included the responsible wielding of power. I do not have some gimongous "responsibility" to emote the rest of the city reacting to me, whether I'm playing a gemmer, a bard, a noble, a soldier, or whatever. Sometimes I do it when I feel like it, but environmental emotes are not the be-all-end-all of responsible roleplay.
It's not my job to mood up the scene for you, because that's not what my job is in ARM, period. My job in ARM, personally, is to be a leader, to make things happen, to set creative plots into motion, and to make interesting scenes by interacting with other PCs in interesting ways. However, it might be your job to mood up the scene, if that is what you are good at. You probably have talents I don't, and don't have talents I do, so by all means--do your job. I'll do mine.
There's just no one-size-fits-all for responsible karma-PC roleplay.
When I'm playing a gemmer and I go to a tavern, I don't go there for the purpose of adding oooOOOOooooo to your PC's life, for the most part. And I never will, because that is just not what I do.
Quote from: Marc on March 12, 2010, 05:03:01 PM
Don't need to take it so far. While I personally think it's cool when someone can really bring a room alive through creative emotes it's not within all of our creative powers. Cool beans. But you CAN still rp the world reacting to your character. Add a sneer to the bartender when he hands you a drink. If you don't want to include any npcs or vnpcs, just rp your character reacting to general distrust, stares, fear, glares etc.
The fact remains that you have to consider the environment with your RP.
QuoteIt's not my job to mood up the scene for you, because that's not what my job is in ARM, period. My job in ARM, personally, is to be a leader, to make things happen, to set creative plots into motion, and to make interesting scenes by interacting with other PCs in interesting ways.
Your three examples of what YOU do all set the mood. This might be nitpicking semantics, but by creating and roleplaying a believable character, you set the mood. You can create a bearded dwarf who role plays summoning familiars and wears a wizard hat (possible! or am I the only one who has seen the occasional hairy dwarf slip through chargen?), involve lots of people in wide-reaching plots, have a dynamic personality and be well liked. That character, no matter how much people like him/her, would be wrong. It does not fit with the game world.
This is an over the top example but lines can be drawn to any character who ignores documentation in favor of being the exception. We don't allow elves that ride. We require dwarves to have a focus. We enforce a muls (and much lesser extent, half-elves) internal struggle. Why shouldn't we require that magickers respect and acknowledge overwhelming public opinion of them and role-play according?
You don't need flowery emotes to have a bartender refuse to serve you. You don't need a masters in english to suggest that one of many many many npcs looked at you weird, crossed the street when they saw you coming or anything similar.
To draw on another post about engaging newbies THIS IS A MAGICKERS RESPONSIBILITY! That newb is not going to know to spit on you. RP that you're getting hassled! Use it as a chance to educate a player about the role magickers fill in Armageddon. These are not Gandolfs!
Then just take it one step further: Do it with everyone, not just newbs. Not everyone can keep emotes up constantly, but do what YOU can to reinforce the documentation. To bring the hate, fear and distrust into the every day. If you don't think that's your responsibility, mundanes might be a better route.
to the OP: If your character would be accepted in the Red's, role play the reaction as YOU see it. If they wouldn't, RP a believable reaction. The heart of whether gemmed would or should be allowed is on whether it's the gemmed responsibility to segregate themselves or on other pc's to force them out. Individual exceptions are just that, exceptions.
Well, in response to Marc, I'd argue it's not the responsibility of a gemmed's player (or anyone else) to dictate through emotes how NPCs and VNPCs behave. That sounds more like a staff responsibility to me.
Your opinion, for example, is that NPCs might spit at or otherwise provoke gemmed. Other people have been asserting that they should react with fear to someone who might curse their unborn children or strike them with seven weeks of bad fortune. To make such emotes is to impose -your- worldview of the game onto others.
Quote from: Salt Merchant on March 12, 2010, 06:08:00 PM
Your opinion, for example, is that NPCs might spit at or otherwise provoke gemmed. Other people have been asserting that they should react with fear to someone who might curse their unborn children or strike them with seven weeks of bad fortune. To make such emotes is to impose -your- worldview of the game onto others.
Agreed. I believe it more likely non-magickers would be fearful of pissing off a babyeating witch.
Quote from: MarcIf you are playing a known magicker and being buddy buddy with everyone, you're doing it wrong (IMHO). It might be IC for you to kiss ass with everyone so you get shunned less, but it's the players responsibility to help maintain a certain level of fear and distrust with magick.
I agree and disagree with this. I think there's definitely a need for a lot of player responsibility, as far as keeping magick and things such as that a mystery. At one point, it seemed like it was easier to get a magick item than lockpicks or flashpowder. It seemed like every week there was some new super magick disaster that mages just wanted to tell every single person in the city who would listen about. I took a long break because I really just didn't like the direction the game was going on.
I don't agree that gemmers should avoid being friendly. They are people too and have the same needs as them. I do think, however, that the majority of the playerbase has the responsibility to react as appropriate to the situation. Whether to just avoid them, spit on them, kick them out, whatever. If some super nice gemmer wants to give your character a magicker thing, it is your responsibility to react appropriately. I've seen too many people that seem to lose all concept of this once they get a super 'gicker item and it's one of my pet peeves. If there's a new player than yeah, the above changes and things should be adjusted accordingly, but those are irregular circumstances and need to be looked at on a case-by-case basis.
Quote from: Salt MerchantWell, in response to Marc, I'd argue it's not the responsibility of a gemmed's player (or anyone else) to dictate through emotes how NPCs and VNPCs behave. That sounds more like a staff responsibility to me.
I agree that neither of those are a gemmed player's responsibility. However, I think a gemmed player, or really any player, emoting certain reactions from NPCs is beyond a player's scope. Ignoring obvious things, such as a bartender giving you a drink when you use the buy command, NPCs have ta history and background of their own. There's no saying how a NPC may react in any given situation outside of staff-use/animation.
As for VNPCs, I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with a player bringing one to life, provided it's realistic given the location and situation. Should a player 'animate' a VNPC to jump in front of them and take a bullet? No, but there's nothing wrong with a player throwing out there about a random Gaj patron wrinkling their nose at the sight of them.
QuoteIf some super nice gemmer wants to give your character a magicker thing, it is your responsibility to react appropriately. I've seen too many people that seem to lose all concept of this once they get a super 'gicker item and it's one of my pet peeves.
JESUS GOD YES. That is one of my *twitch*-worthy peeves right there. Just... anything and everything involved in that sort of situation.
Anyway, I'm at a premium for time now, so I'll just throw out that blanket "it's -everyone's- responsibility to play with the game documentation in mind." And then I'll add that my very favoritest part of playing a gemmer (the thing that helps make it more than bearable) is the persecution and their documented role in society at large. Haters, keep on hating. Gemmers, keep on being aware of the game world and what your role means.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on March 12, 2010, 05:17:00 PM
Quote from: Marc on March 12, 2010, 05:03:01 PM
But you CAN still rp the world reacting to your character. Add a sneer to the bartender when he hands you a drink. If you don't want to include any npcs or vnpcs, just rp your character reacting to general distrust, stares, fear, glares etc.
The fact remains that you have to consider the environment with your RP.
I'm not interested in doing that, and I'm not going to do it. "Considering" the environment does not mean that I must roleplay what the environment does to me. It means only that I need to roleplay my reaction to and presence within the environment correctly.
And that's all I am asking from any gemmed. If you walk around town, sit at all the taverns, use all the shops, utilize the bank, use the stables, all in the SAME MANNER YOU WOULD WITH A MUNDANE, imho, that is wrong. You are ignoring the environment. It is interacting with you the entire time, whether there are imms or pcs to throw emotes out. This is a role-play required mud. While certain subjects you are not forced to role-play (consent rule) everything else you are. I am pretty certain that includes discrimination, intolerance, prejudices etc.
You might not have an interest in tribal RP. I personally don't. But if I go to the elven outpost I am going to consider that environment and role play accordingly. You COULD go to the elven outpost as a known member of a noble house who hates elves and use the shops, buy a drink and generally do your thing. If no PC's are around, does acting out that scene without hostility/intolerance/some-sort-of-weirdness okay? IMHO, no. (I too can come up with examples where this isn't the case. It's an analogy)
You should not have to require an IMM animation or a PC to respond to the environment. You should ALWAYS respond to the environment. Always might be too high an order but it still needs to be strived for.
A lot of these issues, where gemmed can be, too much magicker-hatred or not enough, coded power etc would be resolved if we, the players, took the responsibility on ourselves to make non-mundane roles as gritty, hard and un-tolerated as they should be. That is why they are karma guilds, not just because they drop bombs from their armpits.
Quote from: Pale HorseSo, yes, the Red is socially above the gemmed..unless it's not.
If the staff meant for there to be general evil stares, shoving gemmed around, etc. happening in the virtual environment, then they would code it in. That kind of stuff is already present for certain groups of PCs in certain locations; for example, if you are playing a Sergeant or higher soldier in the militia, there are coded echoes to you at certain places in Allanak which show VNPCs reacting to you in particular ways. There is no general mandate for players to roleplay out reacting to your (Marc's) perception of how the gameworld is, when there is no actual evidence to support that that is how the gameworld is.
However, feel free to RP that if you want to, yourself. Until/unless those things are actually present in the virtual environment, I am not going to assume that they are present, however. Just because you perceive the gameworld to be that way does not mean that is the truth of it.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on March 12, 2010, 07:30:22 PM
If the staff meant for there to be general evil stares, shoving gemmed around, etc. happening in the virtual environment, then they would code it in. That kind of stuff is already present for certain groups of PCs in certain locations; for example, if you are playing a Sergeant or higher soldier in the militia, there are coded echoes to you at certain places in Allanak which show VNPCs reacting to you in particular ways. There is no general mandate for players to roleplay out reacting to your (Marc's) perception of how the gameworld is, when there is no actual evidence to support that that is how the gameworld is.
Just because something isn't coded in doesn't mean it's not happening, nor supposed to be happening.
There are many things that you can do through the code that, realistically, should not happen and are bad form.
Quote from: jcarter on March 12, 2010, 07:37:13 PM
Just because something isn't coded in doesn't mean it's not happening, nor supposed to be happening.
You are certainly entitled to
your opinion of how things should be, or are; just as I am entitled to
my opinion of how things should be, or are, on this topic. The fact remains that there is insufficient evidence in the game environment to support a blanket statement such as "players should be responding to the virtual spitting, shoving, and general violence directed at their gemmed PCs, and if they are not doing so then they are roleplaying incorrectly."
If/when staff say that there is virtual spitting, shoving, and general violence being directed at virtual and PC gemmed, and/or they add echoes and other effects to the environment to show that these things are happening, then I will agree that PCs should be acting as if these things are happening on a regular basis. Until that time, I do not agree that PCs have some "roleplay responsibility" to act as if these things are happening on a regular basis.
There's no coded response to a lot of things, including magick-related "situations" in which it -should- make sense, that players would know to respond accordingly.
For instance...if a Wood-Witch walked through the streets of Allanak covered with glowing tree bark, the Militia NPCs are not coded to respond to it. The VNPCs are not coded to echo any reaction. The Templar NPCs would completely ignore it. But, the PCs will, and certainly should, have -some- kind of reaction. Whether that reaction is "quick call a templar!" or "oh shit I been cursed, I seen a glowin bark-witch!" or "uh..I think I'll just take a quick left. Right here. Yeah." or "OFF with his head!" or "woah...I wish I had bark, then anyone who touches me would get splinters, bwahahaha"..
Regardless of the reaction, it wouldn't be nonchalance. The game isn't coded to react. But players are expected to.
Edited to add: And, the wood-witch walking around covered with glowing tree-bark SHOULD be expected, to expect, a reaction from people who are in close enough proximity to notice that he's covered with glowing tree bark.
Unless there is an argument on whether the documentation states that magickers are feared, untrusted, hated, despised I was unaware of, pretty sure it is present in the virtual world.
Quote from: Roleplaying Magic General Questions FAQWhy are magickers hated? I want to be a nice elementalist!
Magickers are hated and feared by the populace. This is a fact of life on Zalanthas. In New Tuluk, a city once decimated by elementals, magick is forbidden. The general populace does not know what a magicker is and isn't capable of, and assumes the worst. Magickers are blamed for disease, bad luck, and any other negative occurence.
Right there the immortals have declared that they are Hated and Feared.
HOW they, the virtual world, reacts is up to
YOU, the player.
THAT they react is not. People, animals. If they are capable of feeling fear or hate, they will react to it. It might not be overt, but there WILL be a reaction. To argue that is to argue against emotion.
The documentation states in black and white that magickers are hated and feared. They are blamed for disease, bad luck, (famine?). Staff might not intend Evil stares, shoves or any particular example. I'm sure they intend for magickers to be hated and feared by the general populace.
To extrapolate: If the vast majority of people hate and fear you, are the vast majority going to make absolutely no overt sign? Is no one going to freak out and run away or freak out and yell something they'll regret? They will just accept it as is? That stablehand never fidgets when he hands you your mount? The banker never helps NON-gemmed first? The merchant house agent never refuses to sell to you?
There are all things you can add to the world that is NOT stepping beyond your power as a player. If you insist on that npc having the same reaction for ANOTHER pc, you are overstepping your bounds. If you are reinforcing a stereotype and keep it subtle, do you think staff is going to eat your cereal for power emoting?
There are a thousand and one ways to role play prejudice and discrimination for your gemmed/known magicker. One style of role play might not fit yours, however it is your responsibility to reconcile your style with the documentation. If you completely ignore the virtual worlds HATE and FEAR of you, then you are failing to do that.
That is the player of the magickers responsibility first and foremost. Not other pc's reacting to them.
P.S.
Quote from: Gimfalisetteplayers should be responding to the virtual spitting, shoving, and general violence directed at their gemmed PCs, and if they are not doing so then they are roleplaying incorrectly.
Please use quotes for statements like this. I don't think anyone has said "THE ONLY WAY TO REACT IS VIOLENCE". It's that there IS a reaction SOMEWHERE.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on March 12, 2010, 07:30:22 PM
If the staff meant for there to be general evil stares, shoving gemmed around, etc. happening in the virtual environment, then they would code it in. That kind of stuff is already present for certain groups of PCs in certain locations; for example, if you are playing a Sergeant or higher soldier in the militia, there are coded echoes to you at certain places in Allanak which show VNPCs reacting to you in particular ways. There is no general mandate for players to roleplay out reacting to your (Marc's) perception of how the gameworld is, when there is no actual evidence to support that that is how the gameworld is.
However, feel free to RP that if you want to, yourself. Until/unless those things are actually present in the virtual environment, I am not going to assume that they are present, however. Just because you perceive the gameworld to be that way does not mean that is the truth of it.
My suggestion was merely that such things be implemented, to help bring the game world in accordance with the documentation. If the NPC barkeeper glared at you every time you sat down at the bar when you have a gem, it would help set the mood without really hurting your character or force them into being completely isolated.
You can't really argue that it doesn't belong just because it isn't already implemented. The game is evolving and constantly being fixed; the biggie I can point to is half-elves being given the capability to look like humans or elves. It was pointed out that such passing as the other races was in the documentation, and as such was added to the game. What you're arguing is the equivalent of "Oh, obviously that's not meant to be in the game, because for years you could race-sniff with assess -v."
I would say it's the other players' responsibility to react to you being a gemmer. There is plenty of reason that they would ignore your gemmed; they might not notice the gem or know you're a magicker. Sometimes this ignoring is a little too much, a little too frequent, even though often it's the result of little more than them forgetting to look at you or notice your gem. I've seen great paranoia towards magick roleplayed when players are cued or pointed to it, but it takes some initiative to start up some anti-magicker roleplay. I think echoes like a barkeeper glaring at you, or shooing you to a back table or something, etc, would go a long way towards cueing in, and I think you'd see improvements in roleplay without any real malus to the gemmed's ability to play the game. Mundanes will still interact with gemmers, but they'll be more aware and more willing to adjust their roleplay accordingly.
And gemmers will get that interaction, rather than sitting and being ignored like every other boring commoner idling in the Gaj. Win-win, as far as I'm concerned.
As brought up by someone else, you should generally NOT emote the actions/reactions of NPCs. They have a background and personality all their own that you are not privy too. Some VNPC wandering past? Sure. NPC? 99% of the time you should not.
Also, emoting a reaction to another's action IS emoting that first action, still forcing it on the V/NPC.
I find it insulting to be told that I have to emote the entire world for someone to think that I am roleplaying my character correctly, keeping in mind the game world. Those are still environmental emotes, because as I said, if you emote the sneer in response to the bartender, you're still emoting the bartender's action... which makes it an environmental echo. As pointed out, I don't have to emote the environment for me to be aware of and having my character act appropriately in the environment.
Quote from: spawnloser on March 13, 2010, 09:45:46 AM
As brought up by someone else, you should generally NOT emote the actions/reactions of NPCs. They have a background and personality all their own that you are not privy too. Some VNPC wandering past? Sure. NPC? 99% of the time you should not.
Can you quote where staff has said you should not do this? This as in small 'flavor' text added to interactions or mood i.e. Vennant or FlintMk2 serving a drink with a smile or a frown. I am happy to admit I was wrong if someone can pull that out. I really truly honestly want to know.
Quote from: spawnloserAlso, emoting a reaction to another's action IS emoting that first action, still forcing it on the V/NPC.
This entirely depends on the answer to the above. If, as I believe, staff is a-ok with 'power' emotes with npcs (keeping in mind the game world and not being stupid i.e. having templars bow to you, any sort of major interaction/fawning etc) then this point is moot. If not, my stance holds no water.
Quote from: spawnloserI find it insulting to be told that I have to emote the entire world for someone to think that I am roleplaying my character correctly, keeping in mind the game world. Those are still environmental emotes, because as I said, if you emote the sneer in response to the bartender, you're still emoting the bartender's action... which makes it an environmental echo. As pointed out, I don't have to emote the environment for me to be aware of and having my character act appropriately in the environment.
No one is insulting you. You even said what -IS- required:
Quotehaving my character act appropriately in the environment
If you are acting appropriately in the environment you are considering the environment and how it would react to you. If you are only in a "reactive" mode of role-playing tho, that IMHO is wrong. You are not asked to react to the world, you are asked to INTERACT with the world. That means keeping in mind the documentation and applying it to your role play. That means always role-playing your gemmed as if the general population fears and hates you and would be acting accordingly.
How that manifests itself is entirely up to you (and staff). That it manifests itself shouldn't be up for debate (but it seems to be)
Why is this part of gemmed/known gicker rp so hard to grasp? No one argues that elves should ride and dwarves should have beards. What makes persecution, fear and hate so different? If these are not things you want to role-play, why chose a character type that has you barely ranked above insect?
Quote from: Shade of Ness, Magick Roleplay Guidelines
...towards the social structure that brands them as nearly sub-human...
The above is in reference to magickers who support the city state in Allanak. Since this conversation mostly revolves around gemmed, that is what a Producer has stated. They don't occupy a special position save maybe a seat on the short-bus. Individuals can raise themselves, but gemmed as a whole are barely human, segregated (as they should be!), persecuted, hated and feared. You might say "People wont fuck with my gemmed! They are too scared I'll turn their babies into kryl!" and that very well could be true. But when those same people are in groups? Some gain courage with groups. Drink? Some gain courage with drink.
While you (spawnloser/gimf/anyone else who doesn't) might not want to add mood setting emotes, IMHO it's your responsibility. You don't have to emote a bartender sneering or a crowd spitting or pushing or any SPECIFIC thing. You have to role play the worlds reaction to your character and your characters reaction to them.
If your an elf. A mul. A dwarf. A sorcerer. A soldier in the Arm. A soldier in the Legions. No matter what role you choose to fill you have to role play according to the documentation. That leaves -HUGE- leeway on how you want the documentation to manifest but you cannot choose to ignore parts of the documentation/world just because you don't want to role play that. With gemmed, you have to role play the fear and hatred.
As gemmed you also have karma (or the responsibility inherent with it). You are choosing to bring magick into the role play equation. You are forcing those around you to now include the magicker documentations in their role play. Because you are bringing it in, it is on you to set the appropriate mood. If you're sitting in the Gaj and no PC is even looking at your gemmed twice. No one has reacted at all and you're all sitting around chatting about Lord Fancypants new trousers it is on YOU, the magicker, to remind everyone there that you are hated and feared. If that's a sneer from the bartender, a glare from a crowd, fine. If it's something else, fine. But THAT it happens should not be up for debate. You are bringing magick to life. All aspects of magick. Good and bad. Comfortable and uncomfortable.
Seriously? I have no idea how to begin searching on that one as I have no idea what the topic was being discussed when it was mentioned. Ideally a staffer will come in and straighten it out, because believe me, forcing actions on individual, named NPCs through an emote is generally frowned upon, especially when it has to do with their attitude, like their attitude towards you. I think this is less frowned upon when you're having them treat you unkindly versus kindly, admittedly.
Still, in the case of very specific NPCs like some bartenders and the like, I wouldn't force ANYTHING on them. You don't really know those characters and having that individual treat you like crap when he would very possibly be more likely to just ignore your very existence instead. You don't know the character. Just because it isn't a PC doesn't give you the right to power-emote them. You haven't read the background, so leave it out.
VNPCs? Whole different animal. The above is all just about NPCs.
Occasionally doing something? Sure. That'd be great, don't get me wrong, but you seem to think it is required. The only premise I can assume you have to draw this conclusion further down the line is that emoting is required for good roleplay. It's great when it's used, but it isn't a requirement. There are so many other commands for you to roleplay that don't involve emoting.
I believe Spawnloser is correct. That's they way I heard it in the past. Emoting for coded NPCs is a no-no. Emoting for VNPCs is okay.
I still think emoting for NPC's is fine so long as proper judgement is used. I would also like a staff member to chime in here.
Quote from: spawnloser on March 13, 2010, 02:55:49 PM
Occasionally doing something? Sure. That'd be great, don't get me wrong, but you seem to think it is required. The only premise I can assume you have to draw this conclusion further down the line is that emoting is required for good roleplay. It's great when it's used, but it isn't a requirement. There are so many other commands for you to roleplay that don't involve emoting.
Bolded bit.
Quote from: MeThat leaves -HUGE- leeway on how you want the documentation to manifest but you cannot choose to ignore parts of the documentation/world just because you don't want to role play that.
I am advocating for visible role-play, but I also realize that people have different styles. The important bit is that you keep the world in mind.
This is what I am hearing: "I don't want to be forced to role play anything I don't want. I have my style and my style is just fine. If someone gives me an IC problem I will handle it IC."
Hard to find fault in the above but I'm a prick so here goes: This entire debate is centered around gemmed and how the general populace would view them. It spawned from whether the population in a certain location would accept gemmed presence.
My declaration: "The players of gemmed/known magickers need to include hate, fear and persecution in their day to day RP."
I've harped on emoting, forced on npcs or otherwise. Why is emoting preferred (IMHO) to feels/thinks etc? Because it builds a mood for the mundanes in the area. It reinforces the world view. It makes Armageddon a more believable place.
I think this sums it up:
QuoteAs gemmed you also have karma (or the responsibility inherent with it). You are choosing to bring magick into the role play equation. You are forcing those around you to now include the magicker documentations in their role play. Because you are bringing it in, it is on you to set the appropriate mood. If you're sitting in the Gaj and no PC is even looking at your gemmed twice. No one has reacted at all and you're all sitting around chatting about Lord Fancypants new trousers it is on YOU, the magicker, to remind everyone there that you are hated and feared. If that's a sneer from the bartender, a glare from a crowd, fine. If it's something else, fine. But THAT it happens should not be up for debate. You are bringing magick to life. All aspects of magick. Good and bad. Comfortable and uncomfortable.
You're advocating visible RP? Great. Like I said, it's great when people do the occasional environmental emote, but you can't require it from people. Some people just don't emote much and demanding that they do more on top of it? Kinda silly, if you ask me.
I think the whole point, included some "do nots" in addition to some "dos."
In a nice uncoded list - if you are a gemmer:
DO enjoy using emotes to include your environment and its reaction to your gemmed existence.
DO enjoy refraining from emotes, if you are feeling unsure what to emote, or feel like none is needed.
DO enjoy including VNPCs in your emotes, and DO involved them, when you use them, in their reaction to your gemmed existence.
DO enjoy including NPCs in your emotes, IF you are familiar with the NPC's personal background and use it in your roleplay (such as, if you are a high-ranking Oashi gemmer who has his own personal NPC guard that you, the player, submitted to the staff and therefore know his background and personality).
DO expect, that the -majority- of VNPCs, and the environment, is UNfriendly toward gemmers. Not necessarily hostile, but unfriendly, in a very generic, unspecified sort of way.
DO NOT involve NPCs in your emotes, UNLESS you are familiar with that NPC's personal background and can/do RP it accordingly, and its reaction to the fact that it is in the presence of a gemmer.
DO NOT expect the environment, the VNPCs, the NPCs, or the PCs to be glad to be in the presence of a gemmer.
DO NOT expect the environment, the VNPCs, the NPCs, or the PCs to be disinterested, uncaring, or lacking any particular opinion about your character, the gemmer, being there.
So - don't EXPECT that the world will treat your gemmer nicely. In fact, EXPECT the opposite. And respond to that expectation according to however you feel your character would respond to it. If you choose to -create- the environment's response to your character's existence, then bear in mind, that the environment is not happy you're there, and create accordingly.
This could just as well apply to elves, 'rinthi and half-elves, I hope people realize.
Now you're all going to be horrible roleplayers if there are not stones flying at you, people sneering at you and militia beating you up on a regular basis.
Be warned.
Quote from: Salt Merchant on March 13, 2010, 07:07:41 PM
This could just as well apply to elves, 'rinthi and half-elves, I hope people realize.
Now you're all going to be horrible roleplayers if there are not stones flying at you, people sneering at you and militia beating you up on a regular basis.
Be warned.
I know the above is merely highlighting a point, but there's a pretty big difference in the docs saying 'elves are generally avoided by honest folks' and 'magickers are almost universally feared and hated'.
What people need to do to scorn gemmers is to scorn anyone who associates with them. What gemmers need to do is act like the social outcasts they are. One of my pet peeves is people who stand up for gemmers IG, not that there is anything wrong with the action as it's a perfectly reasonable choice. What annoys me is that they are most likely avoiding the IC consequences for their actions because there weren't enough PCs there at the time to scorn them. Let's do a anti-piracy style emotive pseudo-accurate slogan:
"You wouldn't stand up for a paedophile, would you?"
I think that there may be a lot of private conversations where the gemmed are spoken of like the filthy abominations of nature that they are.
Quote from: racurtne on March 14, 2010, 06:30:16 AM
I think that there may be a lot of private conversations where the gemmed are spoken of like the filthy abominations of nature that they are.
There are. I'd like to see more, though.
However, I don't think magickers should be mandated or expected to play up the fact that they're a gemmer. The game world (through echoes) should, and other players should. I think the latter could be enhanced and improved through careful, tasteful implementation of the former.
Agreed. Magickers can play up there gemmed-ness. But shouldn't be expected to. Because if gemmed have to do it, why shouldn't the ungemmed have to do it. You could emote being the guy spitting across the room, or emote a VNPC spitting over a shoulder or something.
But honestly, what I think it is... It's sometimes hard to RP not liking someone for what they are and for no apparent reason. I think most people havn't got it into their minds yet that the gemmer staring at them could be giving them a disease with that very stare. It's easy to hate elves because stealing is annoying. It's a little harder to hate magickers because magick can be pretty cool.
that's just what I think.
Quote from: Lizzie on March 13, 2010, 06:32:55 PM
I think the whole point, included some "do nots" in addition to some "dos."
In a nice uncoded list - if you are a gemmer:
DO enjoy using emotes to include your environment and its reaction to your gemmed existence.
DO enjoy refraining from emotes, if you are feeling unsure what to emote, or feel like none is needed.
DO enjoy including VNPCs in your emotes, and DO involved them, when you use them, in their reaction to your gemmed existence.
DO enjoy including NPCs in your emotes, IF you are familiar with the NPC's personal background and use it in your roleplay (such as, if you are a high-ranking Oashi gemmer who has his own personal NPC guard that you, the player, submitted to the staff and therefore know his background and personality).
DO expect, that the -majority- of VNPCs, and the environment, is UNfriendly toward gemmers. Not necessarily hostile, but unfriendly, in a very generic, unspecified sort of way.
DO NOT involve NPCs in your emotes, UNLESS you are familiar with that NPC's personal background and can/do RP it accordingly, and its reaction to the fact that it is in the presence of a gemmer.
DO NOT expect the environment, the VNPCs, the NPCs, or the PCs to be glad to be in the presence of a gemmer.
DO NOT expect the environment, the VNPCs, the NPCs, or the PCs to be disinterested, uncaring, or lacking any particular opinion about your character, the gemmer, being there.
So - don't EXPECT that the world will treat your gemmer nicely. In fact, EXPECT the opposite. And respond to that expectation according to however you feel your character would respond to it. If you choose to -create- the environment's response to your character's existence, then bear in mind, that the environment is not happy you're there, and create accordingly.
Very good outline to follow
QuoteOne of my pet peeves is people who stand up for gemmers IG, not that there is anything wrong with the action as it's a perfectly reasonable choice. What annoys me is that they are most likely avoiding the IC consequences for their actions because there weren't enough PCs there at the time to scorn them.
This is a perfect opportunity to take the initiative and do something with this situation rather than stew about it OOCly.
You guys hear that? Amos is sticking up for the 'gicker! He's bein' used by foul magicks, get him!
(because after all, going after the magicker would be kinda foolish, Amos the cursed however...)
or
You a 'gicker lover Amos? Or one of them fucks curse ya with their foul magicks?
(you'd best get your head straight, unless you want to be thought of as a tool of a dirty, baby-eating witch)
^ Yeah, very good idea. We need more "witch hunts", in my opinion. If anyone stands up for a magicker, it would make sense to report them to the Templarate (with a bribe if necessary) for been a suspected magicker. This will both enforce themeliness, and could result in interesting RP.
As an analogy: I've been among groups of highly homophobic people, where any behaviour perceived as feminine or stereotypically gay would get you suspected, if not outright branded, as a homosexual and consequently alienated and scorned.
Now, replace homosexuality with magickers, consider the fact that your average commoner is uneducated/very ignorant, and with what magickers are capable of (both codedly, and rumoured) and the fear which surrounds their abilities... it makes sense that "witch hunts" would be a common occurrance in Zalanthas.
Quote from: HTX on March 14, 2010, 08:14:55 PM
^ Yeah, very good idea. We need more "witch hunts", in my opinion. If anyone stands up for a magicker, it would make sense to report them to the Templarate (with a bribe if necessary) for been a suspected magicker. This will both enforce themeliness, and could result in interesting RP.
As an analogy: I've been among groups of highly homophobic people, where any behaviour perceived as feminine or stereotypically gay would get you suspected, if not outright branded, as a homosexual and consequently alienated and scorned.
Now, replace homosexuality with magickers, consider the fact that your average commoner is uneducated/very ignorant, and with what magickers are capable of (both codedly, and rumoured) and the fear which surrounds their abilities... it makes sense that "witch hunts" would be a common occurrance in Zalanthas.
Why are you insisting, as some others, on jumping on the hatred part, but completely ignoring the fear part? Do you always play dwarves or something?
Quote from: janeshephard on March 14, 2010, 08:49:34 PM
Quote from: HTX on March 14, 2010, 08:14:55 PM
^ Yeah, very good idea. We need more "witch hunts", in my opinion. If anyone stands up for a magicker, it would make sense to report them to the Templarate (with a bribe if necessary) for been a suspected magicker. This will both enforce themeliness, and could result in interesting RP.
As an analogy: I've been among groups of highly homophobic people, where any behaviour perceived as feminine or stereotypically gay would get you suspected, if not outright branded, as a homosexual and consequently alienated and scorned.
Now, replace homosexuality with magickers, consider the fact that your average commoner is uneducated/very ignorant, and with what magickers are capable of (both codedly, and rumoured) and the fear which surrounds their abilities... it makes sense that "witch hunts" would be a common occurrance in Zalanthas.
Why are you insisting, as some others, on jumping on the hatred part, but completely ignoring the fear part? Do you always play dwarves or something?
Because hatred is unimaginably easy when you've got a group of like-minded people backing you. (i.e.: The near-entirety of mundane commoners in Allanak).
The fear comes in when a mundane is alone with, or outnumbered by gemmers.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on March 14, 2010, 09:13:49 PM
Because hatred is unimaginably easy when you've got a group of like-minded people backing you. (i.e.: The near-entirety of mundane commoners in Allanak).
The fear comes in when a mundane is alone with, or outnumbered by gemmers.
Hatred is unimaginably easy to roleplay instead of fear. I think that's what it really comes down to. Of course, in time, whether you liked it or not you would learn to fear magickers as I have. They are balanced to be much more powerful than mundane classes after a few days played.
They both have a place. You'll notice that the npcs of the city have no problem being angry and hateful of magickers in a big riotious group outside the elementalist quarter ... because there is a mob of them. Strength in numbers and all that.
I agree that fear is something that should generally be more prevelant when you meet them in more vulnerable circumstances.
I'm not sure where you got the idea I was completely ignoring the fear part.
Quote from: HTX on March 14, 2010, 08:14:55 PM
Now, replace homosexuality with magickers, consider the fact that your average commoner is uneducated/very ignorant, and with what magickers are capable of (both codedly, and rumoured) and the fear which surrounds their abilities... it makes sense that "witch hunts" would be a common occurrance in Zalanthas.
Probably because of my analogy, which probably wasn't the best analogy to make, I admit.
Anyway, regarding fear/hatred towards magickers, I pretty much agree with musashi.
Fear of the Gemmed is well and good. Hatred, absolutely. However, as someone who has interacted with them frequently (as a templar and as a Gemmed), I find that one can go too far in representing these things. It's important to remember that we are playing a game in which interaction is paramount, and one can only be shunned and cast out so many times before attempts to establish relationships seem futile.
What troubles me most about the recent wildfire of arguments against mages and magick is the circular nature of it:
"I don't like that mages can sit in their secret lairs / temples and grind their spells all day. It only takes them a little while to get powerful. They should be out interacting!"
"I don't like that the Gemmed are regularly interacting in my tavern. We should be shunning them, doing everything short of kicking them out to make it miserable. They should always RP their own persecution!"
When faced with the above, a Gemmed player is placed in a somewhat awkward position. The temples are too isolated, but the taverns are too close to polite society. They just want to interact with PCs, yet they're asked to make themselves unwelcome via NPCs. Where does this person, whose character has forever given up anonymity, go for role-play? Believe me, in my time as a templar, I met with many Gemmed who keenly felt an isolation from society. Oash does not fit all comers, and the Council is gone. Provisions for them to have non-magickal, positive RP (we all like a bit of that) in exchange for having sacrificed secrecy are slim.
I don't wish to ease the societal views, but on an OOC level, there must be some leeway for the sake of practicality. That, or the complaints about Gemmed sitting in their Quarter/temples should die down, because doing anything else soon becomes dreary and unpleasant for the player. Let them have enemies, but don't begrudge them friendships if it's appropriate for all involved -- and only the players of those characters can decide such, not the documentation or anything else.
What a Gemmer should do is play their character. Representing the world and its reactions is the domain of a Storyteller.
Quote from: Akoto on March 15, 2010, 12:42:38 AM
Fear of the Gemmed is well and good. Hatred, absolutely. However, as someone who has interacted with them frequently (as a templar and as a Gemmed), I find that one can go too far in representing these things. It's important to remember that we are playing a game in which interaction is paramount, and one can only be shunned and cast out so many times before the attempts to establish relationships seem futile.
What troubles me most about the recent wildfire of arguments against mages and magick - and pardon me if I diverge a bit from the discussion here - is the circular nature of it:
"I don't like that mages can sit in their secret lairs / temples and grind their spells all day. It only takes them a little while to get powerful. They should be out interacting!"
"I don't like that the Gemmed are regularly interacting in my tavern. We should be shunning them, doing everything short of kicking them out to make it miserable. They should always RP their own persecution!"
When faced with the above, a Gemmed player is placed in a somewhat awkward position. The temples are too isolated, but the taverns are too close to polite society. They just want to interact with PCs, yet they're asked to make themselves unwelcome via NPCs. Where does this person, whose character has forever given up anonymity, go for role-play? Believe me, in my time as a templar, I met with many Gemmed who keenly felt an isolation from society. Oash does not fit all comers, and the Council is gone. Provisions for them to have non-magickal, positive RP (and let's face it, we all like a bit of that) in exchange for having sacrificed the power of secrecy are slim.
I don't wish to ease the societal views, but on an OOC level, there must be some leeway for the sake of practicality. That, or the complaints about Gemmed sitting in their Quarter/temples should die down, because doing anything else soon becomes dreary and unpleasant for the player. Let them have enemies, but don't begrudge them friendships if it's appropriate for all involved -- and only the players of those characters can decide such, not the documentation or anything else.
What a Gemmer should do is play their character. Representing the world and its reactions is the domain of a Storyteller.
Ditto that for elves, breeds, 'rinthers, etc. There's a point at which you as a player have to just say, "fuck it" and run completely solo, because every other player in the game has taken it upon themselves to represent hatred, but there aren't enough PC elves/breeds/'rinthers around to compensate. After spending weeks getting no interaction but "fuck off," it starts to get a little tedious.
Akoto's post summed up exactly what I attempted to post several times, before back off because I could not find a way to accurately express my thoughts in words. Thank you, Akoto, for that.
I agree with Akoto that after a certain point expecting one extreme and then the other is just too much.
Mundanes and gemmed magickers alike should just remember who their characters are and how closely they fit the bill of their average Allanaki. Deviation from the norm is acceptable, within reason. Like deviating from the documentation in other matters, so long as characters realize what they are doing is not normal, and are willing to suffer the potential IC repercussions for it, anything goes. And I am definitely not saying that gemmers and mundanes can't interact in a positive manner - just that they do have to be careful and consider if the interaction is acceptable, given both characters' station in society, backgrounds, present situation, and so on.
There is no black-and-white answer to any of the problems in the magicker/mundane interaction in Allanak, and I feel like discussing the topic as a whole is akin to beating a dead horse. It comes in a shade of gray, and any player with even a modicum of experience in interactions between two "different" PCs should understand this.
Agree 10000000% with what Akoto said.
Quote from: Synthesis on March 15, 2010, 06:57:52 AMDitto that for elves, breeds, 'rinthers, etc. There's a point at which you as a player have to just say, "fuck it" and run completely solo, because every other player in the game has taken it upon themselves to represent hatred, but there aren't enough PC elves/breeds/'rinthers around to compensate. After spending weeks getting no interaction but "fuck off," it starts to get a little tedious.
The game's about roleplaying, not interaction. Yes, obviously they're related, but you shouldn't sacrifice the former for the sake of the latter. If being unable to interface with the mundane human majority is such a huge problem for you, you should know not to roll an elf or 'rinther or gemmed. Something about cake and eating it too, I think.
We need fewer pet peeves and more benefit of the doubt. If some fucker ignores your character, remember that they are roleplaying a character who may not have a reason to care about you. If some mundane doesn't act terrified or hateful towards gemmers, remember that the player is playing a character who might have a good reason for their beliefs. A gemmer might have a good reason to hang out in a tavern, but he also might have a good reason to hide away in his temple.
I don't think he was blaming anyone, simply stating it as a flaw of the games design.
hyzhenhok, you're attempting to make this issue into a black-and-white sort of thing that must, by nature of the game we play as suggested by Akoto, must be a shade-of-grey issue. You can't expect magickers to avoid you because they're pariahs. Treat them as pariahs. Treat others as weird for associating with pariahs. Don't expect them to not seek friends and go for drinks and all that, or call them bad players for frequenting a bar that you think they shouldn't be frequenting, because they're still playing characters, people that have all the desires of other people, including social interaction.
I'll also remind you that all magickers, gemmed included, are PCP-stuffed, baby-eating psychos wrapped in dynamite. Do you seriously want to piss one off? Fear is much more appropriate a response in front of a magicker, no matter the hatred your character may feel. Just remember, some people will kill your character in the middle of the street/bar... why not a magicker character too? Just because the magicker might get killed (after the fact) for doing it doesn't mean your character won't be any more dead and smoking. The Templars can only protect you when they're there, can't they?
There is a reason you should fear magickers. Just like in D&D, a 1st level fighter versus a 1st level wizard will result in a dead wizard, but a 15th level fighter versus a 15th level wizard, if that wizard has any time to prepare (and I assure that magickers in arm can be very well-prepared before you encounter them), means there's a crater where that 15th level fighter used to be. It ain't much different in Armageddon.
Quote from: Akoto on March 15, 2010, 12:42:38 AM
...words of wisdom...
These should be included in the documentation or in a guide.
(DISCLAIMER: THIS POST DOES NOT CLAIM ANY SPECIFIC EXAMPLE OF ACTION IS RIGHT OR WRONG. THERE ARE ALWAYS EXCEPTIONS AND SITUATIONS.)
If we want gemmed to be able to have easy access to friends, friendly interactions and feel good moments then the documentation here:
http://www.armageddon.org/rp/magick/index.html (http://www.armageddon.org/rp/magick/index.html)
needs to be changed. I'm not saying they shouldn't exist, but they should not just be expected because we, the players, like them, enjoy them and would prefer them (enter/omit any terms here. thats the gist). Those friendships should be established much along the lines of elvish tests of trust. Are you really going to trust the babyeater just because she's acting nice today? What about when she's in a bad mood?
If you want to make a socialite, don't make a gemmed. If you want an easy road to a circle of friends, don't make a gemmed. It's not the roles job to bend to player expectations.
Magick should be rare. Magick should be feared. Magick should be a mystery.
To accomplish that we need to follow the documentation strictly and do our best to segregate and separate the mundane and magicker communities. Not entirely separate, but along the lines of a midieval jewish ghetto. This will mean less people willing to play magickers, an isolated role. A good thing. This does not mean they need different bars, or shouldn't see each other, but they should be seen and treated like the second class citizen they are. Second class citizen with an unknown arsenal, itchy trigger finger and rampant contagious diseases.
Less magickers, less suspension of belief because -that- gemmed is OKAY, a more consistent environment with the npcs in the city etc etc etc. Yes magick is less approachable as a character. The fuckme's and grebber helpers are probably out, but those gemmed characters that are left will fill the role laid out by the documentation and be a stronger influence than before.
Quote from: spawnloser on March 15, 2010, 05:07:07 PM
hyzhenhok, you're attempting to make this issue into a black-and-white sort of thing that must, by nature of the game we play as suggested by Akoto, must be a shade-of-grey issue. You can't expect magickers to avoid you because they're pariahs. Treat them as pariahs. Treat others as weird for associating with pariahs. Don't expect them to not seek friends and go for drinks and all that, or call them bad players for frequenting a bar that you think they shouldn't be frequenting, because they're still playing characters, people that have all the desires of other people, including social interaction.
I'll also remind you that all magickers, gemmed included, are PCP-stuffed, baby-eating psychos wrapped in dynamite. Do you seriously want to piss one off? Fear is much more appropriate a response in front of a magicker, no matter the hatred your character may feel. Just remember, some people will kill your character in the middle of the street/bar... why not a magicker character too? Just because the magicker might get killed (after the fact) for doing it doesn't mean your character won't be any more dead and smoking. The Templars can only protect you when they're there, can't they?
There is a reason you should fear magickers. Just like in D&D, a 1st level fighter versus a 1st level wizard will result in a dead wizard, but a 15th level fighter versus a 15th level wizard, if that wizard has any time to prepare (and I assure that magickers in arm can be very well-prepared before you encounter them), means there's a crater where that 15th level fighter used to be. It ain't much different in Armageddon.
We're in agreement, this doesn't really contradict what I was saying.
I just think the arguments of "poor me, I want interaction but I'm playing a difficult, possibly socially isolated role" are unnecessary.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on March 15, 2010, 06:23:40 PM
Quote from: spawnloser on March 15, 2010, 05:07:07 PM
hyzhenhok, you're attempting to make this issue into a black-and-white sort of thing that must, by nature of the game we play as suggested by Akoto, must be a shade-of-grey issue. You can't expect magickers to avoid you because they're pariahs. Treat them as pariahs. Treat others as weird for associating with pariahs. Don't expect them to not seek friends and go for drinks and all that, or call them bad players for frequenting a bar that you think they shouldn't be frequenting, because they're still playing characters, people that have all the desires of other people, including social interaction.
I'll also remind you that all magickers, gemmed included, are PCP-stuffed, baby-eating psychos wrapped in dynamite. Do you seriously want to piss one off? Fear is much more appropriate a response in front of a magicker, no matter the hatred your character may feel. Just remember, some people will kill your character in the middle of the street/bar... why not a magicker character too? Just because the magicker might get killed (after the fact) for doing it doesn't mean your character won't be any more dead and smoking. The Templars can only protect you when they're there, can't they?
There is a reason you should fear magickers. Just like in D&D, a 1st level fighter versus a 1st level wizard will result in a dead wizard, but a 15th level fighter versus a 15th level wizard, if that wizard has any time to prepare (and I assure that magickers in arm can be very well-prepared before you encounter them), means there's a crater where that 15th level fighter used to be. It ain't much different in Armageddon.
We're in agreement, this doesn't really contradict what I was saying.
I just think the arguments of "poor me, I want interaction but I'm playing a difficult, possibly socially isolated role" are unnecessary.
In all fairness, I don't think I've ever seen that arguement. I believe the closest I've seen to that was someone pointing out that if people don't want magickers in the Gaj and don't want them in the temple, there's really not much else they can go/do, to a degree and playability needs to be considered in that respect.
To add my own thoughts: I've really seen more than enough people who react to a magicker outright threatening them/becoming hostile with 'So what, you'll just get into some shit' or 'So, lots of things can kill me'. Entirely possible, and logical arguements. But when someone TRIES to make a magicker frightening, it's absurd that people don't even flinch. I'd love to see some healthy FEAR of magickers amidst the playerbase. Hate them, sure, but you hate a lot of things you don't fear. I can't go into specific details of the magick system, but until the last mage I played, I wasn't really aware of how powerful they were. Sure I'd had pcs who were afraid of pissing off magickers because that was the documentation... but now... it's because I know, OOC, that there is a FUCK of a lot about them to be afraid of. And while it won't affect things IC, because my pcs already feared it. But now, OOC, I have a kind of gut-clench reaction knowing that that mage can make my pc dead in seconds with barely a thought, from damn near anywhere in the world, given enough time's been played on them. Sure you see them every day in Allanak, and yes, I admit, fear may take a backseat, but to completely disregard and dissociate yourself from ANY fear when Mage x outright tells you 'Oh, I can flay your soul. Fuck killing you.'... sorry, but when you ARE ignorant of that facts of what magick can and can't do, that ought to scare the shit out of you.
^
Awesome post.
Quote from: Marc on March 15, 2010, 06:00:51 PM
(DISCLAIMER: THIS POST DOES NOT CLAIM ANY SPECIFIC EXAMPLE OF ACTION IS RIGHT OR WRONG. THERE ARE ALWAYS EXCEPTIONS AND SITUATIONS.)
If we want gemmed to be able to have easy access to friends, friendly interactions and feel good moments then the documentation here:
http://www.armageddon.org/rp/magick/index.html (http://www.armageddon.org/rp/magick/index.html)
needs to be changed. I'm not saying they shouldn't exist, but they should not just be expected because we, the players, like them, enjoy them and would prefer them (enter/omit any terms here. thats the gist). Those friendships should be established much along the lines of elvish tests of trust. Are you really going to trust the babyeater just because she's acting nice today? What about when she's in a bad mood?
If you want to make a socialite, don't make a gemmed. If you want an easy road to a circle of friends, don't make a gemmed. It's not the roles job to bend to player expectations.
Magick should be rare. Magick should be feared. Magick should be a mystery.
To accomplish that we need to follow the documentation strictly and do our best to segregate and separate the mundane and magicker communities. Not entirely separate, but along the lines of a midieval jewish ghetto. This will mean less people willing to play magickers, an isolated role. A good thing. This does not mean they need different bars, or shouldn't see each other, but they should be seen and treated like the second class citizen they are. Second class citizen with an unknown arsenal, itchy trigger finger and rampant contagious diseases.
Less magickers, less suspension of belief because -that- gemmed is OKAY, a more consistent environment with the npcs in the city etc etc etc. Yes magick is less approachable as a character. The fuckme's and grebber helpers are probably out, but those gemmed characters that are left will fill the role laid out by the documentation and be a stronger influence than before.
I don't see what the problem is then. There are -few/if any- exceptions in game at any given time. No offense but you're starting to sound like you have an OOC vendetta against magickers/magicker players more than there being any actual problem that needs to be addressed.
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on March 15, 2010, 06:41:55 PM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on March 15, 2010, 06:23:40 PM
Quote from: spawnloser on March 15, 2010, 05:07:07 PM
hyzhenhok, you're attempting to make this issue into a black-and-white sort of thing that must, by nature of the game we play as suggested by Akoto, must be a shade-of-grey issue. You can't expect magickers to avoid you because they're pariahs. Treat them as pariahs. Treat others as weird for associating with pariahs. Don't expect them to not seek friends and go for drinks and all that, or call them bad players for frequenting a bar that you think they shouldn't be frequenting, because they're still playing characters, people that have all the desires of other people, including social interaction.
I'll also remind you that all magickers, gemmed included, are PCP-stuffed, baby-eating psychos wrapped in dynamite. Do you seriously want to piss one off? Fear is much more appropriate a response in front of a magicker, no matter the hatred your character may feel. Just remember, some people will kill your character in the middle of the street/bar... why not a magicker character too? Just because the magicker might get killed (after the fact) for doing it doesn't mean your character won't be any more dead and smoking. The Templars can only protect you when they're there, can't they?
There is a reason you should fear magickers. Just like in D&D, a 1st level fighter versus a 1st level wizard will result in a dead wizard, but a 15th level fighter versus a 15th level wizard, if that wizard has any time to prepare (and I assure that magickers in arm can be very well-prepared before you encounter them), means there's a crater where that 15th level fighter used to be. It ain't much different in Armageddon.
We're in agreement, this doesn't really contradict what I was saying.
I just think the arguments of "poor me, I want interaction but I'm playing a difficult, possibly socially isolated role" are unnecessary.
In all fairness, I don't think I've ever seen that arguement. I believe the closest I've seen to that was someone pointing out that if people don't want magickers in the Gaj and don't want them in the temple, there's really not much else they can go/do, to a degree and playability needs to be considered in that respect.
To add my own thoughts: I've really seen more than enough people who react to a magicker outright threatening them/becoming hostile with 'So what, you'll just get into some shit' or 'So, lots of things can kill me'. Entirely possible, and logical arguements. But when someone TRIES to make a magicker frightening, it's absurd that people don't even flinch. I'd love to see some healthy FEAR of magickers amidst the playerbase. Hate them, sure, but you hate a lot of things you don't fear. I can't go into specific details of the magick system, but until the last mage I played, I wasn't really aware of how powerful they were. Sure I'd had pcs who were afraid of pissing off magickers because that was the documentation... but now... it's because I know, OOC, that there is a FUCK of a lot about them to be afraid of. And while it won't affect things IC, because my pcs already feared it. But now, OOC, I have a kind of gut-clench reaction knowing that that mage can make my pc dead in seconds with barely a thought, from damn near anywhere in the world, given enough time's been played on them. Sure you see them every day in Allanak, and yes, I admit, fear may take a backseat, but to completely disregard and dissociate yourself from ANY fear when Mage x outright tells you 'Oh, I can flay your soul. Fuck killing you.'... sorry, but when you ARE ignorant of that facts of what magick can and can't do, that ought to scare the shit out of you.
Preachin' to the choir Sista. 8)
Not a vendetta at all. Just a different perspective. I see, and thought others saw, too many magickers in the game. Magick, IMHO, is very common where it ought not to be. I also see, and thought others saw, a lot of very sociable, very accepted gemmed/known weirdos. There are ALWAYS things I don't know. Always connections and background I am not privy too, but -IMHO- those weirdos are accepted more often than not. Since there is such a limited social sphere in Allanak it's more pronounced (and more difficult to address).
I'm asking for all players, but specifically the gemmed/weirdos themselves to bring the Magicker documentation more to life by visibly role playing discrimination and persecution. The overwhelming majority of vocal responders have impressed upon me that they do not feel that is there responsibility beyond staying in-character.
That's the major point of contention. I concede that always role-playing persecution in a role that 9 times out of 10 will always be persecuted is not going to be fun for everyone. My suggestion is to not play a gemmed/weirdo if you're not willing to do this practically all the time. Theirs is (the way I understand it. I'm not psychic!) that some balance has to be found between playability and the docs.
That's all My Not So Humble Opinion.
Quote from: Marc on March 15, 2010, 07:00:38 PM
Not a vendetta at all. Just a different perspective. I see, and thought others saw, too many magickers in the game. Magick, IMHO, is very common where it ought not to be.
Not really, no. For one thing, with only about 270 unique players in the game each week, we are always going to have proportionally "too many" gemmed mages, merchant family members, templars, nobles, and even Bynners. For the game to be truly proportional in population distribution, half of all PCs would have to be slaves; and there would be far less of every other kind of role (there wouldn't even be one whole Bynner in game). So the "there are too many magickers" argument simply doesn't work, because PCs are a different and separate population from VNPCs and NPCs.
For another thing, I subscribe to this little philosophy which goes: Let other players play what they freakin' feel like. If you don't want to play around magickers, it's pretty easy to avoid doing. That's not to say that you won't have the odd encounter with magick here and there, but if you don't want sustained, regular contact--that's easy to do. So you play yours, stop trying to control other players, and let them play theirs.
And I say all this as someone who has spent about 90% of her playtime playing mundanes.
Gimf, gotta say, that just doesn't work. It's up to the community with topics like this one to nudge the populace back into line with the docs so that the staff doesn't have to personally go around and crush them one by one (and make players even more paranoid about the staff being "out to get them" than they already are). If we let every topic be, particularly with regards to magick, the world would either be entirely out of line with the docs OR it'd be too much work for the staff. "Shut up and let people play how they like" isn't the answer.
I've seen and had to play around what I believe was the very, very worst instance of magickers gone bad on Armageddon in its entire illustrious history, and if I ever see it again I may flip out and start breaking things. A strong community stance like Marc's will prevent that.
I agree with Marc. If people can't handle isolationist roles, they shouldn't take them. Magickers are scary, scary things. I expect both magickers and the people around them to reflect that, always. It drives me NUTS when they don't.
Okay, so if we agree, how come you seemed to suggest that people should show hatred to the gemmed? You piss a gemmer off and your mate's milk might suddenly curdle and your baby goes hungry. You piss a gemmer off and your 'mighty agafari' might turn into a 'pathetic sapling'. Magickers can do anything. You should be scared to piss them off. You should be too scared to show them anything but fear unless you have a real number advantage, and 2 PCs-on-1 in the Gaj isn't a real number advantage, and since you can't count on the VNPCs to back you up, or even the NPCs, if two bynners are trying to start a fight with a gemmer in the bar, I'd be more inclined to believe that everyone else there would back off and leave room between them and the gemmer than support the person pissing off the gemmer.
You know what? The player of the gemmer is sure to expect that, but expecting a bynner to start a brawl with the gemmer because the gemmer is in the bar? I call bullshit. The only thing saving the gemmer is that the player is too scared too lose a character over blasting the crap out of you. The crim-code is unforgiving and brutal. The gemmer is almost guaranteed to be roughly handled and probably killed for blasting you... but you getting in the gemmer's face? You should be too scared too for fear of never having sex, having babies, seeing, peeing straight and from only one hole, having a shadow, being able to eat without vomiting up your spleen and etc etc etc, to pull the crap I see people pull against gemmers.
Gemmers and players of gemmers seek interaction, just like normal people, and they should be able to find both. Treat them appropriately and they will act appropriately, in most cases. This doesn't mean they shouldn't go to the Gaj or the Red's or any other location in the city. Being a gemmer isn't an isolationist role. It's a socially ostracized role. There's a big difference.
Quote from: Conspiracy Theory on March 15, 2010, 08:26:37 PM
If we let every topic be, particularly with regards to magick, the world would either be entirely out of line with the docs OR it'd be too much work for the staff. "Shut up and let people play how they like" isn't the answer.
*sigh*
You apparently did not read what I posted. I will reiterate: Claiming that there are "too many" magickers in game (or too many of anything) is futile and a dumb argument, because in proportion to the actual virtual population of the game (original 500k population of Allanak including only about 10k gemmed, 2k nobles, 1k Bynners), we will always have too many magickers, as well as too many templars, too many nobles, and too many Bynners. Proportionally, there should only be about 3 PC gemmers, half of a noble, one-quarter of a Bynner, etc. Due to the fact that PCs are intentionally skewed by game design toward niche roles within the virtual environment, yes, there will always be too many magickers. It cannot be helped.
I am in favor of all players playing their own PCs according to the documentation and mindful of the virtual and PC environments. I am also very tired of hearing "you should / should not" applied to other people's play when those players are not violating the spirit or law of the documentation.
Quote from: spawnloser on March 15, 2010, 08:39:37 PM
Okay, so if we agree, how come you seemed to suggest that people should show hatred to the gemmed? You piss a gemmer off and your mate's milk might suddenly curdle and your baby goes hungry. You piss a gemmer off and your 'mighty agafari' might turn into a 'pathetic sapling'. Magickers can do anything. You should be scared to piss them off. You should be too scared to show them anything but fear unless you have a real number advantage, and 2 PCs-on-1 in the Gaj isn't a real number advantage, and since you can't count on the VNPCs to back you up, or even the NPCs, if two bynners are trying to start a fight with a gemmer in the bar, I'd be more inclined to believe that everyone else there would back off and leave room between them and the gemmer than support the person pissing off the gemmer.
You know what? The player of the gemmer is sure to expect that, but expecting a bynner to start a brawl with the gemmer because the gemmer is in the bar? I call bullshit. The only thing saving the gemmer is that the player is too scared too lose a character over blasting the crap out of you. The crim-code is unforgiving and brutal. The gemmer is almost guaranteed to be roughly handled and probably killed for blasting you... but you getting in the gemmer's face? You should be too scared too for fear of never having sex, having babies, seeing, peeing straight and from only one hole, having a shadow, being able to eat without vomiting up your spleen and etc etc etc, to pull the crap I see people pull against gemmers.
Gemmers and players of gemmers seek interaction, just like normal people, and they should be able to find both. Treat them appropriately and they will act appropriately, in most cases. This doesn't mean they shouldn't go to the Gaj or the Red's or any other location in the city. Being a gemmer isn't an isolationist role. It's a socially ostracized role. There's a big difference.
You're not really being coherent. The division between "I'm too afraid of you" and "I'm too hateful of you" is not really that clear cut. There's a continuum, they're not mutually exclusive, etc. I think people should be more
openly fearful of magickers, rather than ignoring them completely, and that would probably improve things. This was the point of the idea of putting some simple prejudicial scripts/echoes in public places: it would encourage people to be more open in their roleplay.
That said, I don't really think the magicker situation is a problem right now.
I never said gemmers shouldn't go to this or that tavern. I think that's an absurd expectation. Equally absurd is the apparently hostility against making the game world more accurately reflect the anti-magicker mindset in the documentation.
Quote from: AmandaGreathouseIn all fairness, I don't think I've ever seen that arguement.
I am mostly talking about the following sentiment, which has been echoed (or a preference for such has at least been implied) by several others:
Quote from: GimfalisetteIt's already plenty "uncomfortable" enough for gemmed to be in public anywhere within Allanak. Having played a gemmer, having played around gemmers a lot over the last 3 years, there is no need for further reinforcement to the current environment. Gemmed is about the most socially-isolated role one can play within a city.
It may very well be true that there's no need for players to increase their anti-magicker roleplay. I just don't think complaints about social isolation or lack of interaction are relevant. As much as I sympathize, one of the things that makes Arm so great is that it does not sacrifice roleplaying and the game world for OOC convenience or preference.
I meet a Vivaduan.
I make friends with the Vivaduan. Not romantic.
I should expect:
1. That my character will be surprised, herself, to find herself in good company, with a gemmer, and might even experience conflicting emotions about it.
2. That the gemmer will be surprised, himself, to find himself in good company, with a non-gemmer that actually enjoys his company, rather than barely tolerating it, and might experience conflicting emotions about it.
3. That the vast majority of people in the vicinity will totally NOT understand how, or why, a gemmer and a non-gemmer would be friends, some would find it repulsive enough to comment, a few might actually try to do something about it, and a rare one or two might attempt to turn the friendship into an opportunity to benefit in some way.
Same situation, but romantic:
1..definite conflicting emotions about it.
2..definite conflicting emotions about it.
3..far more people repulsed rather than simply flabbergasted, many more tempted to actually do something about it.
Same situation, but a strict, amiable trade relationship with no particular friendship:
1..little or no conflicting emotions about it.
2..little or no conflicting emotions about it.
3..the majority wouldn't even be confused, and would be tolerant. Some would still be repulsed, and the rare few would still want to benefit from it or do something about it.
I think there's room for all sorts of play styles and relationships, friendships, romance, business, etc. etc..I just think people need to remember how the world is -intended- to be, and bring into the game expectations that the world -will- be as intended. Even when you're playing the exception to the rule, or someone else treats your gemmer in a way that makes him the exception to the rule. In short, it's important to remember and respect what the rule -is-...not necessarily that you abide by it.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on March 15, 2010, 08:57:00 PM
Quote from: Conspiracy Theory on March 15, 2010, 08:26:37 PM
If we let every topic be, particularly with regards to magick, the world would either be entirely out of line with the docs OR it'd be too much work for the staff. "Shut up and let people play how they like" isn't the answer.
*sigh*
You apparently did not read what I posted. I will reiterate: Claiming that there are "too many" magickers in game (or too many of anything) is futile and a dumb argument, because in proportion to the actual virtual population of the game (original 500k population of Allanak including only about 10k gemmed, 2k nobles, 1k Bynners), we will always have too many magickers, as well as too many templars, too many nobles, and too many Bynners. Proportionally, there should only be about 3 PC gemmers, half of a noble, one-quarter of a Bynner, etc. Due to the fact that PCs are intentionally skewed by game design toward niche roles within the virtual environment, yes, there will always be too many magickers. It cannot be helped.
I am in favor of all players playing their own PCs according to the documentation and mindful of the virtual and PC environments. I am also very tired of hearing "you should / should not" applied to other people's play when those players are not violating the spirit or law of the documentation.
A-fucking-men/women.
Funny thing. The ones that -do- stick to their temples all of the time aren't noticed enough to be accused of sticking to their temples all of the time.
My sense is that, increasingly, gemmed are being created by casual players. That is the way players are coping with the isolation of the role; for the most part, they just don't log on much. If nothing's happening, they do something else. But they emerge everytime there's an RPT or so.
Quote from: Salt Merchant on March 15, 2010, 10:43:58 PM
My sense is that, increasingly, gemmed are being created by casual players. That is the way players are coping with the isolation of the role; for the most part, they just don't log on much. If nothing's happening, they do something else. But they emerge everytime there's an RPT or so.
Seems like the gemmed role is perfect for casual players with the degree of isolation in the role; sort of like Templars or Nobles.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on March 15, 2010, 08:57:00 PM
I am in favor of all players playing their own PCs according to the documentation and mindful of the virtual and PC environments. I am also very tired of hearing "you should / should not" applied to other people's play when those players are not violating the spirit or law of the documentation.
Yep - I'd love to see more players on the GDB worry less about "what your character should do" and more about "what -my- character should do". That said, Conspiracy Theory has a point. These threads make good reality checks for anyone reading them, though like all GDB threads, they should be taken with a grain of salt.
I understood your point Gimf, but mine stands. These threads are FOR pointing out the docs and making sure people ARE in line with them, even though these entire discussions have been replayed thousands of times in Arm's past. If we don't stick our fat noses in everyone's business, telling them how not to play, then it's piled entirely up to the staff to worry about how Chosen Lord Amos the selfless, beetle-riding, universally loved elven sorcerer just won the Grey Hunt.
Threads like this one can stop that from ever happening to begin with.
And Rhyden kind of stole my thunder but I'll post this anyway, so there.
I generally disagree with the slippery slope arguement as a means to justify jabbing fingers into other people's affairs.
I dislike these threads because they don't ever seem to be a simple renforcement of the docs, but rather, they seem to be someone trying to impose their narrow interpration of what they think the docs should be, onto the rest of the player base.
Trying to justify that kind of, well ... rude behavior with a "But if I don't do that the whole world will go in the toilet!" defense doesn't hold much water with me.
That said I agree with Lizzie's mentality on how the gemmed should be treated/reacted to. I think that's quite realistic.
Magick is hated and feared, period, regardless of who they are, or who they work for. Anyone who is friends with or sleeps with or nice to or defends a magicker should fully expect to be just as hated and feared for it, regardless of who they are or, or who they work for. This is the norm of society.
There's a clearer cut line than you seem to think. Hatred and fear are two separate emotions. Just like anger and sadness. They are distinct. You can feel them at the same time. You should be scared to show hatred to a magicker's face because they could curdle your semen without doing anything but breathing within 10' of you if they wanted. Let them get into a lawless area or get powerful enough, and they can do things like make big enough explosions to leave a crater big enough that you can't see across it with the way the code works... and I'm not kidding, that actually happened in the history. They caused the destruction of Tuluk. They made a freaking volcano, sort of. Why couldn't they do something smaller and much more personal and horrible to your character? You should be too scared to give them a reason to be angry while paying attention to you for fear of the consequences. Hell, you should be scared to even give them a reason to pay attention to you at all, for that matter, because who says they have to consciously want to do you harm for harm to happen? Being blown a kiss by a vivaduan could leave you flaccid for a week. Who knows? Your mundane doesn't. All of his/her mundane friends don't. Noone can get past what they KNOW of a magicker character's limitations, though. You know that the PC will have to actually use the code to cast to do anything to you and before they can do much, the crim-code's going to kick in. You know what? Stop knowing that.
Seriously, I'm going to come up with a suggestion to actually have things like this happen. If you're in the same room as a magicker and that magicker starts keywording you for emotes or talks or something, for a script that runs on that magicker to set a script on your character that gives you echos for a few IC days about some ailment that is element-specific to that magicker. I can think of no other way to get the dorks that ignore how afraid they should reacting more appropriately.
I see things -completely- opposite from Spawnloser. I see it, that if you're a commoner, you grew up in the vicinity of the entrance to the elemental quarter. You have been exposed to gemmers all your life. ALL YOUR LIFE. And you managed to live to be 22 years old, without having ever been cursed, you've already had 1 normal healthy baby so you know they never messed with your reproductive system. You know vivaduans can heal people because their temple is RIGHT PAST THE JUNCTION of the most travelled road in the entire city and you watch VNPCs travel in and out of that temple every time you pass it.
You have seen gemmers come and go peacefully without having ever caused any problems at all, and when you -do- see them cause problems, they are promptly destroyed as the mutated freakish abominations of nature that they are.
But if they're not actively doing anything to cause you to be afraid..if they're just sitting there having a drink, then you, as a commoner who grew up in their presence for at least 14 years, would know that chances are, as long as you don't go out of your way to piss one off, they won't bother you in the least.
Lizzie, you're thinking too much like a modern, western adult. Think about it this way...
- You know that time you stubbed your toe and broke it? A rukkian cursed you so that the ground wouldn't be right for you, causing the stumble into that step.
- How about that time you got Krath's Touch? Well, obviously some krathi cursed you to be get it more easily since you didn't get it the 10 times before that when you were outside doing whatever you were doing.
- Then there was that time you got drunk and fell down the stairs. A vivaduan obviously cursed you to get drunk too easily, and too drunk at that.
- All the storms in the streets? Some whiran or elkrosian, or all of them just because they're there in the city, are the cause! Better not accuse a whiran, though, as your breath might be harder to take in. Better not accuse the elkrosians because you might never get to go outside again for fear of the storms!
Stop thinking like a modern person and think like a superstitious medievel dumbass. That's more what your character would think like.
Yeah, Spawnloser has a point. People with the lack of modern technological/medical knowledge (Zalanthans) would have all sorts of superstitions regarding what magickers can or can't do. People almost never play this aspect of life around them and it's kinda sad. People are using their OOC knowledge of what magickers can or can't do, or are thinking as themselves in the situation instead of how their pc being raised around such superstitions based on fear of magick would react.
Quote from: Niamh on March 16, 2010, 08:40:17 AM
Magick is hated and feared, period, regardless of who they are, or who they work for. Anyone who is friends with or sleeps with or nice to or defends a magicker should fully expect to be just as hated and feared for it, regardless of who they are or, or who they work for. This is the norm of society.
This is, uh.. pretty definitive. The rest is kinda semantics, really. ;)
IAWSpawnloser.
A mundane raider will become feared through their reputation. People avoid them, fear them, so on, just knowing that they are in the location.
I just think there's too many instances of characters (and players) stumbling across, or experiencing magick which has not harmed them, probably even benefited them, and causes magick to be seen more placid than it really should be.
Solution? Give people a reason to fear magick again. Doesn't even have to be staff intervention needed for most of it, but I'm sure it would be a lot more effective.
Until there's a real threat which magick poses, and is a visible entity in the game, and with no real set boundaries and standards for which magickers to play to, players will continue to do as they want, and treat magickers as they want, even if they're suppose to be universally feared/hated/mistrusted, so on. We all want to play the exception to some degree.
It's fine to play an exception to the rule, but Naimh is right in that others are bound to be distrustful if you're too cozy with a finger wiggler. That said, regardless have how open you are to the arcane, you would understand that they're exceptionally dangerous people.
Quote from: Semper on March 16, 2010, 02:29:42 PM
A mundane raider will become feared through their reputation. People avoid them, fear them, so on, just knowing that they are in the location.
I just think there's too many instances of characters (and players) stumbling across, or experiencing magick which has not harmed them, probably even benefited them, and causes magick to be seen more placid than it really should be.
Solution? Give people a reason to fear magick again. Doesn't even have to be staff intervention needed for most of it, but I'm sure it would be a lot more effective.
Until there's a real threat which magick poses, and is a visible entity in the game, and with no real set boundaries and standards for which magickers to play to, players will continue to do as they want, and treat magickers as they want, even if they're suppose to be universally feared/hated/mistrusted, so on. We all want to play the exception to some degree.
Perhaps I'm being too cynical but I can't help but read this and think that the first time a magicker, gemmed or otherwise, tries to act this out and managed to accidentally (or not) kill the one they were intimidating, there will be a new thread/post about the "abuse of power from players of higher karma based guilds" on the GDB.
"The magicker didn't need to use coded power to be intimidating/scary?" From my experience, often times yes, yes, you do. "Excessive force" used by a magicker raider/scary person became the norm of the day for a period of time I can remember, because every time it happened, the mundane being threatened ended up attacking the gicker head on. To curtail this and actual make people
fear a magicker as has been pointed out they should, they started using more and more forceful means, which ended up outright killing several characters. There were a number of unhappy posts about "magicker characters abusing their spells of doom" for a while.
And the magicker hate threads started up again..and people rose up to join in on them..then the counter arguments started, and the same tired cycle repeats it's self over again.
..Meh..Cynical post is cynical. I'm up later than I try to be of late, having to watch the puppy until someone else gets in the house to take him off my hands and let me sleep.
I find the last post to be very spot on. I've tried several times with magicker pcs to try and play up the: I'm a cursed babyeating, souless, shit-dispenser of doom role, only to have the other pc completely ignore it for OOC reasons. Then, to enforce the idea that you are a supernatural force of vile doom, you have to resort to more permanent force than would be fun for the recipient. Much like the situation templar players are put in from time to time. People will not respond realistically to the -threat- to their pc as much as they will to coded consequences. It's also much like the problem between potential raiders and raiding victims.
Have some realistic care for your pc's life for fuck's sake.
Magickers, especially the gemmed, are put into a pretty unfavorable position by the hard-line nature of the documentation and the current staff support for that mentality, that being the "all magick is feared and hated".
- If an elementalist lives up to the hype through code-heavy demonstrations of their power, mundanes cry foul because they think high-karma classes with coded power have an obligation to show more restraint.
- If an elementalist tries to integrate into the day-to-day social fabric of their environment, they're blamed for ignoring the virtual population that would be discouraging such actions through the omnipresent threat of mob mentality violence.
- If an elementalist befriends a mundane, then both characters are blamed for playing the exception to the rule rather than adhering to the documentation.
All of these situations are born of this universal fear and hatred serving as our documentation. It's unfortunate that the game world doesn't aim for something more toward the middle (tolerated, but mistrusted) so that these situations would be largely diffused. Deflating the intensity of the fear and hatred would allow for a wider variety of roles and relationships without both sides feeling as if they're constantly violating the spirit of the documentation. It would also likely decrease the amount of attacks upon elementalists by mundanes, as it would become reasonable to have non-violent and cooperative relationships.
It's too bad that there aren't different stages/levels of elementalism that were visible measures of one's power, so that elementalists who chose a low-route to power were tolerated and mistrusted, where elementalists that pursued high degrees of power joined sorcerers and psionicists in the universally hated and feared category, creating a broader spectrum against which they were judged.
I have some friends that do drugs that I'm still friends with, because their lifestyle hasn't gotten to a point where they're a danger or negative influence on myself or the people around me. However, I have other friends who gone deep enough down that road to fall into that category. Both of these people do drugs, but I treat them very differently, and I wish we could have a similar notion when it came to magick in the game.
-LoD
Quote from: Niamh on March 16, 2010, 08:40:17 AM
Magick is hated and feared, period, regardless of who they are, or who they work for. Anyone who is friends with or sleeps with or nice to or defends a magicker should fully expect to be just as hated and feared for it, regardless of who they are or, or who they work for. This is the norm of society.
Quote from: Niamh on March 16, 2010, 08:40:17 AM
Magick is hated and feared, period, regardless of who they are, or who they work for. Anyone who is friends with or sleeps with or nice to or defends a magicker should fully expect to be just as hated and feared for it, regardless of who they are or, or who they work for. This is the norm of society.
Quote from: Niamh on March 16, 2010, 08:40:17 AM
Magick is hated and feared, period, regardless of who they are, or who they work for. Anyone who is friends with or sleeps with or nice to or defends a magicker should fully expect to be just as hated and feared for it, regardless of who they are or, or who they work for. This is the norm of society.
Quote from: Niamh on March 16, 2010, 08:40:17 AM
Magick is hated and feared, period, regardless of who they are, or who they work for. Anyone who is friends with or sleeps with or nice to or defends a magicker should fully expect to be just as hated and feared for it, regardless of who they are or, or who they work for. This is the norm of society.
Quote from: Niamh on March 16, 2010, 08:40:17 AM
Magick is hated and feared, period, regardless of who they are, or who they work for. Anyone who is friends with or sleeps with or nice to or defends a magicker should fully expect to be just as hated and feared for it, regardless of who they are or, or who they work for. This is the norm of society.
Quote from: Niamh on March 16, 2010, 08:40:17 AM
Magick is hated and feared, period, regardless of who they are, or who they work for. Anyone who is friends with or sleeps with or nice to or defends a magicker should fully expect to be just as hated and feared for it, regardless of who they are or, or who they work for. This is the norm of society.
Anywho.... The way I see it is this-- who here really cares -all that much- about how other players perceive their characters?
Honestly, just play your character.
If it's IC for your character to befriend a gemmer, than have him befriend a gemmer.
If it's IC for your gemmer to not act like an insane baby-fat drinking lunatic who will make people's dicks fall off, than have your gemmer not act like an insane baby-fat drinking lunatic who will make people's dicks fall off.
If you think someone is playing a character wrong-- then file a player complaint.
It's that easy.
If the player in question was doing anything wrong, the staff will take care of it.
It's so insanely easy!
I can't believe it myself! O:
You guys should seriously try it.
What I find interesting is what parts of the Documentation people use to justify their treatment, or the treatment of others, towards magickers.
The helpfiles, indicate clearly that they are employed, with some regularity, by Houses, Independants, etc.
Alot of people are quick to say that the Helpfile take on magickers is "archaic" and "outdated". Yet - contrary to this - the helpfiles are updated regularly, and Magicker helpfiles were just edited the other week to remove "druidic" references. If the portions about hireability were incorrect, they would be removed. Which lends credence to the fact that magickers are employed and interacted with by different levels of society.
Hated and feared is mentioned twice in the documentation. It does not state "universal". And hate and feared are VERY VERY loose terms. We could have threads dedicated to the semantics of these words and appropriate application of attitude deemed suitable for each condition. Someone went through a lot of effort in a previous post about pointing out the "hated and feared" portion, posted by staff. No need to have it posted by staff, its in the Documentation. But all your great quoting still does nothing to explain what hated and feared means.
-To hate something does not mean you don't find it useful, or necessary, or acceptable.
-To fear something, likewise, does not mean it does not have a place, a use, a purpose.
This is how I feel on the matter. And if you couple my definitions with other portions of the Docs (below), I feel that the intention in all the documentation about Magickers is a rational fear. Not an irrational one. LoD posted it some time ago, a very well-phrased quote about irrational fear in regards to Magickers.
Another portion of the documentation, about living as an Elementalist in Allanak: And what about good wine, music, and comfortable clothing? There are people who will endure the prejudice of a city-state in return for having access to the lifestyle and culture it makes available to them. -- This implies that elementalists can, and do, achieve such higher levels of living.
HOW? - if they are to be hated, despised, thrown away and not interacted with? If all this is true, where do their residences, furniture, homes, clothing, etc come from?
The answer is the point I am making, they are not "hated and feared" to the point of excommunication from society. They are hated and feared to the point that they will never be quite welcome, or a noble, or a hero. They will be that menace that we accept.
Yet another portion: There are also undoubtably elementalists who are patriots of the city-state. For whatever reason they hold little or no animosity towards the social structure that brands them as nearly sub-human, and actually use their powers to aid it.
So again, I find it interesting what portions of the documentation people choose to cling onto. But there is nothing in the Magicker Documentation that would lead me to believe that if I played a gemmed Magicker in Allanak that I could not pursue any other set of goals or interactions that I would with a non-gemmed character. It would be unrealistic, yes, to assume that it wouldn't be difficult. But the outright "shunning" that some people call for is actually against what is documented. In the helpfiles, the Magicker Roleplay documentation, and the What You Know.
LOD, Jenred, now, you fellas are trying to use reason in this here thread. They don't like that much 'round these parts.
Quote
Guild Wind Elementalist
Wind elementalists are mages who follow the course of the ever-changing breezes of Zalanthas. Like the wind, they are often felt but not seen, and can typically travel great distances at will. Even less than sun mages, however, wind mages are not trusted; most average citizens have no ability to comprehend the aspect of a wind mage and his/her mysterious ways of moving and plane-shifting.
Wind mage spells often invoke the name of Whira, the elemental plane of air. Their magicks involve becoming unseen, traveling at high speeds or to places normally inaccessible, and crossing large distances in the blink of an eye.
Nearly as much as water mages, wind mages are able to sell their spells for a good profit, to those who would hire a mage in the first place. A powerful wind mage can be an absolutely invaluable ally, however, and so they may be sought out to aid in various assassinations, espionage (at which wind mages can be very good), or military operations.
As travelling companions, wind mages may be somewhat undependable-- they will typically become very tired of 'just walking,' and may abandon any party with which they are journeying.
Okay.... So a wind mage may be able to sell their services for a good profit, but only to those who would hire a mage in the first place..... What commoner in their right mind would hire a mage? I think Oash is pretty much the only people who hire these things anyhow. :/
Everyone else seems to have a healthy hatred and fear of magick, like the Staff say you should.
So using the docs there isn't a very strong argument, as they make it clear that only "those who would hire a mage in the first place" are the ones who hire mages. And there aren't many of those folk IG.
And if there -are- alot of people IG (other than Oash) that hire gemmed-- then they're doing it like they should be, out of sight.
QuoteGuild Water Elementalist
Water elementalists are the most valuable mages in existence on the parched desert world of Zalanthas. There is no better companion than an expert water mage on a long journey.
Most magicks of water mages stem from Vivadu, the elemental plane of water. Water mages are able to conjure water from that plane with ease, and can learn to have complete control over all waters, to poison or purify, to create or destroy. While possessing almost no combat abilities, water mages are powerful in more subtle ways: they are able to heal virtually any wound, create impenetrable barriers around themselves, and manipulate liquids.
Water mages are highly employable, amongst those who would hire any mage to begin with. As companions on journeys they can be worth incredible sums of money, and as permanent parts of clans or Houses worth even more. Due to the widespread unease generally felt around any mage, however, only large organizations generally will consider hiring a water elementalist.
Bolded parts need no more explanation....
I'm not disagreeing with Jenred-- he's right. Just because magickers are feared and hated doesn't mean they're not useful.... But they're only useful to certain people.
The exceptions to the rule, the people who don't hate/fear magick, the people who don't mind being casted upon, the people who would even -pay- to be casted upon.... These are the people magickers are useful to (along with Oash and the Southern Templarate). Ever wonder why you don't see many of these commoners consorting with mages publicly? Because they don't want you to know.
Common people are (as they should be) very hush-hush when it comes to hiring a mage for anything, because it can destroy their reputations if they're found out.
Apparently the quoting gives you tunnel vision too. You left out a few key components of the same helpfiles you quoted:
QuoteMore than any other mage, sun mages are employed for purposes of combat.
QuoteStone mages may be employed as part of an army or scouting group, for they are well able to weave protective magicks around their companions. Stone mages can also be invaluable as travelling companions because of their abilities to conjure mounts and construct shelters for rests during long journeys.
QuoteWater mages are highly employable, amongst those who would hire any mage to begin with. As companions on journeys they can be worth incredible sums of money, and as permanent parts of clans or Houses worth even more. There is no better companion than an expert water mage on a long journey.
QuoteNearly as much as water mages, wind mages are able to sell their spells for a good profit, to those who would hire a mage in the first place. A powerful wind mage can be an absolutely invaluable ally, however, and so they may be sought out to aid in various assassinations, espionage (at which wind mages can be very good), or military operations.
Invaluable. Proftiable. Incredible Sums. Highly Employable. Good Profit. Absolutely Invaluable.
And you keep harping on "only Oash" the rest is "exception to the rule". That is not correct. And I don't know where you are basing this assumption. Its not the documentation, or staff responses on the matter. Mages are hired by alot more than Oash. There is a difference between public and private, discreet and blatant, secret and not secret. I've never had any trouble finding employ in whatever house I wanted as a skilled mage. Of any type.
There is no existing clan that has not had a magicker in it, in either public or sponsored roles.
I'm pretty sure those help files are outdated and no longer relevant.
Quote from: Synthesis on March 17, 2010, 04:51:08 PM
I'm pretty sure those help files are outdated and no longer relevant.
(if you were kidding, in an attempt to be satirical about my just referencing how people use this as a defense less than 3 posts above this, I apologize)This is an erroneous opinion.
If they were no longer relevant, they would've been edited, the first time this was brought to staff attention, years ago.
They are still relevant. People continuing to say "they are not relevant" is actually a psychological problem, where people try to justify their own thoughts/opinions by externalizing them and projecting them on something.
"The documentation about Elves being thievy is outdated." - because I want to play an elf that is welcome in society. /sarcasm
Actually there are a lot of docs that are outdated and, because of IC events and code changes which have led to new "actualities," those outdated docs are irrelevant. Unfortunately, the docs haven't been updated with a little note saying "disregard THESE docs..they no longer count." So no one really knows for sure which outdated docs they should be paying attention to, and which ones they're supposed to ignore. Until..something happens IC, or through staff e-mail, and you are informed that the docs are outdated and irrelevant.
So, those docs -might- be irrelevant. Or, they might not be. Just because they exist, doesn't mean they're valid. It doesn't mean they're not, either. Making -any- assumption about the game based on 5+ year-old documentation is probably not a good idea.
Quote from: Lizzie on March 17, 2010, 05:30:02 PM
Actually there are a lot of docs that are outdated and, because of IC events and code changes which have led to new "actualities," those outdated docs are irrelevant. Unfortunately, the docs haven't been updated with a little note saying "disregard THESE docs..they no longer count." So no one really knows for sure which outdated docs they should be paying attention to, and which ones they're supposed to ignore. Until..something happens IC, or through staff e-mail, and you are informed that the docs are outdated and irrelevant.
So, those docs -might- be irrelevant. Or, they might not be. Just because they exist, doesn't mean they're valid. It doesn't mean they're not, either. Making -any- assumption about the game based on 5+ year-old documentation is probably not a good idea.
Eh. I think we have to follow the docs unless staff says otherwise.
However! Jenred is extrapolating the wrong information from the help files. Employable. Invaluable. Etc Etc Etc. Sure, but the key there is
"to those that would hire a mage in the first place".
In response to the last few posts (I don't want to take the time to read the entire thread yet)...
There is a difference between utilizing a magicker for something and putting them on the payroll (IE: clanning one). The difference between contracting out a job for a magicker to do (fill all the water cisterns in the estate, kill someone, spy on someone), and bringing them on as a full employee with all the benefits.
If Zalanthan organizations had insurance, hiring a magicker any but a few organizations would make the premiums skyrocket! The risks of having someone with the powers akin to a god, without the wisdom to go would be iimmense.
This isn't even going into the social factors. To vaguely reference recent widespread IC events that have proven to be unfortunate for large portions of the world, many people would and do blame these things on magickers. And who knows, maybe they are to blame. But that'd be getting too IC.
As far as the code goes magicker characters are relatively safe in that a magicker can't use the magick code to (accidently or intentionally) topple buildings or flood anything without assistance from the staff. But that isn't to say that crazy and fantastic things couldn't happen. I think it is our responsibilities as players to convey this through our role-play. Not just the role-play of people playing the magickers/gemmed, but also by people that interact with them. And by this I don't mean completely shun them, but have portray a real respect/fear of the power of magick and not treat it as a trivial thing.
If you feel a piece of documentation is out of date, inaccurate or poorly worded, go to:
http://www.armageddon.org/login.php?returnURL=/request/index.php
-> Website
-> -> Bug/Typo/Idea
In the large rectangular box:
1. Paste a link to the documentation page or Title for the helpfile.
2. Below that paste the section of the documentation you fill is inaccurate.
3. Point to the conflicting documentation or why you think it is inaccurate.
4. In the event that staff agrees, it would probably be helpful for you to include and "accurate/updated" string of text to replace the existing one.
I've had at least two helpfiles and three website documents updated that I've submitted changes for over the last year alone.
I've never submitted one that wasn't implemented.
PS - If you feel that someone is Roleplaying poorly, file a player complaint.
Staff has said many times that the discussion board is not the place to talk down someone else's roleplay.
A lot of the magicker helpfiles (obviously not Void, Elkros and Shadow) have the same or essentially the same wording they did prior to the Tuluki Cataclysm. You know, when mages ran around that other city, ungemmed, and we all were clanned with Khomar so we could use their garden to skill up in.
Quote from: EldritchOrigins on March 17, 2010, 06:20:46 PM
but have portray a real respect/fear of the power of magick and not treat it as a trivial thing.
Meh.
It's easier to respect/fear gickers who earn respect/fear. I'm all for cowering under the oppressive gaze a well played templar or noble. It's fun. In all my years of playing, I've personally remember maybe three magickers who deserved that kind of reaction.
One can play Miss Sweetness Socialite as a gicker, yes, but there should be an undercurrent of obvious danger to the character. Be a danger to everyone and everything. Emote flare-ups, cast a spell on the 'wrong' target while out hunting with the crew, let the occasional bit of creepy dialog slip. If people aren't getting that your character is dang nasty evil, turn up the volume.
It would be easier to accept the idea of the gemmed as useful but scary tools, hanging out at their own table in the Gaj unmolested by roving Bynners -- if the scary bit was emphasized as much as the useful bit by gemmed players. (and if they were hanging out at their own table, instead of the main bar) A guideline, in my own head, would be to play each and every magicker as unapologetically Chaotic Evil. Any pretense of social niceties would be just a veneer.
imo, the situation would clear itself up if non-mundanes were exclusively sponsored/special apped roles, with karma's only function to provide a guideline for staff. I think it would put an end to this endless cycle of bitching if each magicker had a clear mandate and part to play in the over-arcing plot.
Quote from: number13 on March 17, 2010, 08:17:45 PM
Quote from: EldritchOrigins on March 17, 2010, 06:20:46 PM
but have portray a real respect/fear of the power of magick and not treat it as a trivial thing.
Meh.
It's easier to respect/fear gickers who earn respect/fear. I'm all for cowering under the oppressive gaze a well played templar or noble. It's fun. In all my years of playing, I've personally remember maybe three magickers who deserved that kind of reaction.
One can play Miss Sweetness Socialite as a gicker, yes, but there should be an undercurrent of obvious danger to the character. Be a danger to everyone and everything. Emote flare-ups, cast a spell on the 'wrong' target while out hunting with the crew, let the occasional bit of creepy dialog slip. If people aren't getting that your character is dang nasty evil, turn up the volume.
It would be easier to accept the idea of the gemmed as useful but scary tools, hanging out at their own table in the Gaj unmolested by roving Bynners -- if the scary bit was emphasized as much as the useful bit by gemmed players. (and if they were hanging out at their own table, instead of the main bar) A guideline, in my own head, would be to play each and every magicker as unapologetically Chaotic Evil. Any pretense of social niceties would be just a veneer.
imo, the situation would clear itself up if non-mundanes were exclusively sponsored/special apped roles, with karma's only function to provide a guideline for staff. I think it would put an end to this endless cycle of bitching if each magicker had a clear mandate and part to play in the over-arcing plot.
It is true, part of the responsibility to create fear of magickers in the player base is on the player of a mage character..if their character wishes to be feared, or it's part of how the player plays.
Also, see my post on the previous page. All it takes it just one perceived "abuse of power" and the GDB gets a new thread about how Magickers need to have their teeth-pulled.
Quote from: number13 on March 17, 2010, 08:17:45 PM
Quote from: EldritchOrigins on March 17, 2010, 06:20:46 PM
but have portray a real respect/fear of the power of magick and not treat it as a trivial thing.
Meh.
It's easier to respect/fear gickers who earn respect/fear. I'm all for cowering under the oppressive gaze a well played templar or noble. It's fun. In all my years of playing, I've personally remember maybe three magickers who deserved that kind of reaction.
One can play Miss Sweetness Socialite as a gicker, yes, but there should be an undercurrent of obvious danger to the character. Be a danger to everyone and everything. Emote flare-ups, cast a spell on the 'wrong' target while out hunting with the crew, let the occasional bit of creepy dialog slip. If people aren't getting that your character is dang nasty evil, turn up the volume.
It would be easier to accept the idea of the gemmed as useful but scary tools, hanging out at their own table in the Gaj unmolested by roving Bynners -- if the scary bit was emphasized as much as the useful bit by gemmed players. (and if they were hanging out at their own table, instead of the main bar) A guideline, in my own head, would be to play each and every magicker as unapologetically Chaotic Evil. Any pretense of social niceties would be just a veneer.
imo, the situation would clear itself up if non-mundanes were exclusively sponsored/special apped roles, with karma's only function to provide a guideline for staff. I think it would put an end to this endless cycle of bitching if each magicker had a clear mandate and part to play in the over-arcing plot.
I don't think you get it. You shouldn't have your pc fear them because -all- of them -are- evil. You have your pc fear them because in -this- gameworld -most- people -believe- them to be. This is a perfect example of what I stated earlier, some people refuse to rp any fear of magickers unless you fucking nuke their pc. Remember, realistically played magickers are, in reality, no different than any other pc without magick. They have differing personalities, hopes, dreams, etc. One shouldn't have to actually be "evil magicker of DOOM" for your pc to have fear of them. You are -choosing- to put the responsibility on the player of the magicker to be scary instead of owning up to the responsibility to rp your character accordingly. You are choosing which parts of the documentation to agree with and which parts to ignore.
My point is more about the fear/respect for the capabilities of magick. A magicker might be a duffus, but that isn't to say people know what they may or may not be capable of. On a OOC level people know what magickers can and can't do so on an OOC level this leaks into play. Most fear is fear of the unknown, fears of the known aren't as threatening because people can prepare for them, or at least take cacluated risks. I think that wouldn't be the case with magick.
I'm not saying people would be afraid of magickers, but that they would be afraid of -magick- itself (which is part of what a magicker is).
People are afraid of/respect the power of mekillots because they can squish people and do tremendous damage. What sort of things is magick capable of that people should be afraid of?
Quote from: Twilight on March 17, 2010, 07:20:37 PM
A lot of the magicker helpfiles (obviously not Void, Elkros and Shadow) have the same or essentially the same wording they did prior to the Tuluki Cataclysm. You know, when mages ran around that other city, ungemmed, and we all were clanned with Khomar so we could use their garden to skill up in.
This is true.
Concerning the creation of fear: one time, there seemed to be a few stories about gemmed being killed appearing triumphantly on tavern boards. My gemmed stumbled across a dead PC (clearly killed by a beetle in a sandstorm or the like) and decided to create a story of his own. He dumped the head at a city gate or in a tavern (I forget which) and told a story of how magickers should not be attacked lightly (also posted to the tavern board).
Everything would be cool, I figured. Fear of magickers without actually killing anyone and "abusing my power".
My impression from subsequent events is that the player whose character died sort of thought "wtf?" upon hearing of it with his next character, and the word spread through some OOC grapevine that the story was actually an invention rather than the truth, negating any effect it might have had.
Quote from: EldritchOrigins on March 17, 2010, 08:59:58 PM
People are afraid of/respect the power of mekillots because they can squish people and do tremendous damage. What sort of things is magick capable of that people should be afraid of?
Really, people are afraid of/respect the power of mekillots because they
do squish people and do tremendous damage. The gemmed aren't widely known for it.
Color me naive, but I've known only one magicker that I was afraid of, and it was because he actually made a (very creditable) effort to be frightening.
QuoteThis is a perfect example of what I stated earlier, some people refuse to rp any fear of magickers unless you fucking nuke their pc.
You don't have to nuke anyone to be scary. I've had PCs with practically zero coded power scare the crap out of people.
There's layers here. Your magicker might believe that he's the bestest best guy in the world, but OOCly you have a responsibility to ensure that other PCs view you as an abomination. So while your guy is trying to act as magnanimously as possible, you the player are sabotaging his efforts intentionally.
Separate yourself from the character. You are not him. He has this thoughts, and you have your responsibly. (including, a responsibility to your own fun.)
QuoteRemember, realistically played magickers are, in reality, no different than any other pc without magick.
Then play PCs without magic, if they are the same. If they really, really are the same, then where's the interesting RP? Why have that type of character at all?
First off, power corrupts. You've got a guy who can shoot flames out of his fingers, that's got to have an effect on one's sense of worth. Second off, everyone hates them. If everyone, and I mean everyone, in the world thought of you as a villain, it wouldn't be long until you started approximating the role. A person can only be told, "You are an abomination," so many times before it starts to become true. Exceptions should be rare as an elf riding a kank.
Finally, and I know it's not in the docs, there's an unnatural force living in their head -- the connection to the elemental plane. As that connection deepens, why wouldn't they become more alien, with less empathy towards others who are not connected to the same element? What is in the docs is a sense of antagonism between certain magickers (such as Krathi and Drovian, Nilazi and every other element.) If there's no connection on a psychic level, then there's no reason for that antagonism to develop in individuals.
QuoteYou are -choosing- to put the responsibility on the player of the magicker to be scary instead of owning up to the responsibility to rp your character accordingly.
They're playing the karma-ed role, so yes, they should have the responsibility. That responsibility would be even more clear if the role were sponsored, but the karma ought to be enough.
Quote from: EldritchOrigins on March 17, 2010, 08:59:58 PM
People are afraid of/respect the power of mekillots because they can squish people and do tremendous damage. What sort of things is magick capable of that people should be afraid of?
Magick destroyed Old Tuluk. Magick sunk an entire city into the sand. Magick turned an outpost-sized locale into nothing but a crater. Magick turned a lush world into a mostly-arid wasteland. Magick killed an entire race of people. Magick made horrible horrible creatures that can do nasty things to you. Good enough? If they can do these things, just imagine the sort of things they could do to just
one person.
Quote from: spawnloser on March 17, 2010, 10:07:58 PM
Magick destroyed Old Tuluk. Magick sunk an entire city into the sand. Magick turned an outpost-sized locale into nothing but a crater. Magick turned a lush world into a mostly-arid wasteland. Magick killed an entire race of people. Magick made horrible horrible creatures that can do nasty things to you. Good enough? If they can do these things, just imagine the sort of things they could do to just one person.
None of that even budges the needle on the scary-meter. Does it scare you? I mean, you you, not your PC. When you read that back, does a shiver run up your spine? It's too big a scale to hit home, or too fantastic, and too over-saturated. If you want a real reaction, you need to scare the player, not just the PC.
Look, after 9/11 (yeah, yeah), for the first few weeks afterwards, I'd look up and have to wonder every time an airplane passed over head. But after years of airplanes generally not dropping out of the sky, it's really no bother. And when an airplane did drop out of the sky, there was a minute of panic (I have a brother who works for the IRS in Austin), quickly followed by a rational and determined search for information. Point is, people adapt.
After dealing with all the magickal calamities that have struck, people would have to adapt, or they all be barking mad. Now, you have a whole quarter of individuals busy not being scary, safely collared by the Highlord and His templars. So, it's an uphill climb for any gemmer to be scary, but it's not impossible. You have to turn up the volume, up the ante a little, and one can do that as adequately with shadow-puppetry as with actual nukes.
But don't complain if Runner Amos isn't scared of your Krathi. You have all the advantages in that situation. You're the one playing the karma-ed role. Onus is on you if the role isn't working.
Quote from: spawnloser on March 17, 2010, 10:07:58 PM
Quote from: EldritchOrigins on March 17, 2010, 08:59:58 PM
People are afraid of/respect the power of mekillots because they can squish people and do tremendous damage. What sort of things is magick capable of that people should be afraid of?
Magick destroyed Old Tuluk. Magick sunk an entire city into the sand. Magick turned an outpost-sized locale into nothing but a crater. Magick turned a lush world into a mostly-arid wasteland. Magick killed an entire race of people. Magick made horrible horrible creatures that can do nasty things to you. Good enough? If they can do these things, just imagine the sort of things they could do to just one person.
Thank you for illustrating my point.
If you -reaaally- want people to react to your magicker appropriately....
Don't get gemmed.
That's one of the easiest routes to having a scary magicker, no matter what element.
Or, you know, raise up huge volcanos and rain death down upon cities and the PCs that inhabit them.
Scaring the player should be irrelevant. If someone is depending on you to scare them, the player, in order to act realistically, then I would suggest they are not following the direction given by the staff through docs and comments on magick, not fully understanding the player/character divide and in the end depriving the rest of us of some of the richness that this world called Armageddon should be offering.
Magick and magickers are feared (ie, people are scared of them). The ones that can squish meks are absolutely terrifying.
Quote from: Twilight on March 17, 2010, 11:21:49 PM
Or, you know, raise up huge volcanos and rain death down upon cities and the PCs that inhabit them.
Scaring the player should be irrelevant. If someone is depending on you to scare them, the player, in order to act realistically, then I would suggest they are not following the direction given by the staff through docs and comments on magick, not fully understanding the player/character divide and in the end depriving the rest of us of some of the richness that this world called Armageddon should be offering.
Magick and magickers are feared (ie, people are scared of them). The ones that can squish meks are absolutely terrifying.
Yeah exactly. The attitude that's coming from some players is similar to saying "Why shouldn't my elf ride mounts? So what if the docs say they don't, it's up to everyone else to correct me ICly if they see my elf pc riding mounts." The docs state that people "fear" magick/magickers. It's not an option, much like elves riding mounts. Should the -player- have to feel that elves riding mounts is wrong? Should the -player- have to be scared of magickers? The answer is no. It's in the documentation and players who are attempting to play a believable character in -this- world (Zalanthas) should be working toward making their characters at least follow these guidelines.
jhunter:
People have no problem RPing fear of southern nobles. Nobles don't have benefits under the crime code. They got nothing in the way of coded power, really, except some swank accommodation and a few NPCs to boss around -- NPCs that explicitly can't be used to initiate PvP.
Figure out in your own head why fear of southern nobles works as advertised and fear of gemmers doesn't. Just saying "Gemmers are scary," on the GDB has produced little in the way of results, for years. My suggestions for how to work the problem might or might not work, but it's a shade or two more plausible than banging your head against the same brick wall and expecting different results.
There's no difference except that people are choosing to disregard one part of the documentation over another. When they should follow them the same whether it is regarding templars, nobles, or magickers. The only reason, one works over another or fails over the other is because people are -choosing- not to follow one for whatever excuse they can come up with.
I think I've said all I need to say and likely have said many times when these threads come up. I'm gonna move on now, this is getting old.
In a world where people are dying of thirst and starvation, in the middle of a desert world, where you have beings CURSED with the mean of creating unlimited amount of food and snapping perfectly pure and clear water out of thin air, it is no surprise that many have a hard time to come to terms with magick = curses and an abomination of nature.
When they created the magick system and they wanted it to be feared by everyone, they shouldn't have gone with 'classes' that were purely helpful in nature.
No such thing.
As a matter of fact, the classes you think of as "purely helpful" Are arguably the scariest.
Quote from: X-D on March 18, 2010, 02:33:28 AM
No such thing.
As a matter of fact, the classes you think of as "purely helpful" Are arguably the scariest.
The scariest if they want to be. Also the most helpful if they want to be. Because they can do one thing doesn't mean that they aren't mostly known as people who can create what the masses mostly and currently need.
Anyone can destroy if they want to, but not anyone can also create water and food, out of nothing, as much as they want to.
But this thread is deja vu.. Someone will come and say that the old lady that you think is nice and helpful because she creates water for the poor could also be cursing your babies and blah blah.. Therefore, this thread will go nowhere.
Because we had this thread five years ago and we will have it again in five years.
Obviously, you can't convince people to fear magick, because, if you did, threads like this one wouldn't exist, so I'm just saying why I think it's hard/impossible to convince them. You can argue with me, but it won't change the fact that the majority of the players can't and won't role play fear of magickers.
Quote from: jhunter on March 18, 2010, 01:54:33 AM
There's no difference except that people are choosing to disregard one part of the documentation over another. When they should follow them the same whether it is regarding templars, nobles, or magickers.
You tend to disregard my explanations, so you'll have to puzzle it out for yourself. Why do people short that aspect piece of documentation, even if they follow all the others? When you can come up with an honest answer, you'll understand why the gemmed role doesn't work as advertised.
It's no one's fault. It's just a system that doesn't work out the way it's supposed to. Fixing it means more than saying "Be scared of my
Vampire gemmed mage, or else the Storytellers will give you bad notes," because that tactic has been tried, for years, and doesn't work.
There's nothing to puzzle out. It is a plain and simple matter of you making the choice to either follow the documentation or not. There's nothing else to it. No amount of explaination (read excuses) makes it proper to do so. You can rationalize it any way you choose, it does not make it correct to disregard it.
Why shouldn't my elf ride mounts? I can think of many excuses to use to say that my elf would right mounts. It doesn't make it proper roleplay to do so. The same applies to having your characters all be exceptions to the documentation in regards to magick.
I don't have any problem adhering to the documentation regarding elves, nobles, templars, or magickers. Why is it that it's okay for you or anyone else to inentionally make a decision to disregard it? Does everyone get their own customized version of the documentation to follow tailored to their personal preferences and I just wasn't told about it in all the years I've played?
You do not wish to follow the documentation to the dismay of your fellow players because you don't -like- to rp your characters having fear of magick? That's how it's coming across to me.
What would make players roleplay being more afraid of magickers?
Quote from: Myrdryn on March 18, 2010, 03:03:57 AM
What would make players roleplay being more afraid of magickers?
Coded effects, for sure. Spells backfiring, spells leaving undesirable effects.. Random curses..
Someone mentioned Final Fantasy 13 and how they had the "Magicker hatred" perfectly down.. If someone is near the magicker when they cast a spell, they could get the bad luck of getting cursed for a period of time..
If you stay outside for too long, the sun hits you hard at some point. Why not do the same thing for magickers? If you hang around one for too long, something bad could happen..
Also, make sure not to allow every single new gemmers to be a bunch of angsty teenagers who appear more eager to discover their sexuality than they are with discovering their magick. :D
Without coded effects, NOTHING will change. I am sure about that.
I think if you told people they could get good account notes and possibly karma for roleplaying a fear of magick they'd jump on it. ;)
Quote from: jhunter on March 18, 2010, 03:03:38 AM
There's nothing to puzzle out. It is a plain and simple matter of you making the choice to either follow the documentation or not.
Me? Except the one case where I explicitly played an insane guy who styled himself a witch hunter, I generally go for fear of magickers -- overt fear when plausible. But it's often forced, and if someone is making it hard for me to continue, say planting himself at the Gaj and casually shooting the breeze with everyone, or delivering a Vampire-esque "I'm so dark" soliloquy, I drop fear in favor of hate.
Also, if you happen to be playing in an area that's thick with gickers, or a time when Nak is thick with gemmers, it's self-isolating to play up the fear angle too heavily. You end up the lone mundane against the world, and while that can be fun at first, it's not sustainable.
QuoteWhy shouldn't my elf ride mounts?
I don't know. It really doesn't make much sense -- it's a hold over from Dark Sun -- but it's binary, and so really easy to judge whether a person is breaking that particular rule.
QuoteYou do not wish to follow the documentation to the dismay of your fellow players because you don't -like- to rp your characters having fear of magick? That's how it's coming across to me.
This is one piece of documentation we've had problems with for years. And it keeps coming up. Why not come up with a solution other than, "The same thing we've always done, regardless of effectiveness?" Telling me how terrible it is that everyone tends to disregard a piece of documentation is lamenting; not building a real solution.
-------------------------
QuoteWhat would make players roleplay being more afraid of magickers?
It's a tough nut to crack with the magick system and social systems set up as they are. There's balances to consider as well, including the personal fun of magicker players.
Best idea I got, aside from infeasible massive system changes, is to transfer magickers to a sponsored role and provide instructions, oversight over a limited population. I'm fairly certain a player who can play a Lady Tor as the scariest thing on the MUD can do the same thing for any gicker class, without casting a single spell even, if that's the mandate and expectation.
Quote from: Myrdryn on March 18, 2010, 03:03:57 AM
What would make players roleplay being more afraid of magickers?
Coded effects that can get around the crim-code.
Evil-eyes/curses that are subtle enough that the militia might not pick up on it but will screw with people.
If people know that they are not(entirely) safe in lawful areas, it'll make a difference. If the line for criminal-free castings gets fudged to include more than cantrips, mages will have a coded way to remind people why they should be feared without risking dead characters. It works the other way to: there are coded effects. The authorities can see those and respond accordingly.
PC's WITH these abilities (most magickers) would have to be bitch slapped hard for abuse.
Dry eyes
The runs
Hallucinations
Uncontrollable sneezing
Not having the ability to CONTROL THE VOLUME OF YOUR VOICE
Fun fun fun fun fun
Go spend time around a magicker outside the city gates and piss him/her off. I can guarantee you, if that magicker has 15 days played, your death will be swift and sure.
Also, there is no such thing as a magicker that is built only to be helpful. Sure, some have ways to be VERY helpful, and a few have several ways in which they can be helpful too. However, every single one of them has a way to GUARANTEE your death with only one spell. I don't think anyone that can do that can be described as purely helpful. That's like saying that a dude wrapped in dynamite and carrying a mini-gun that also happens to have a backpack that produces food, water, poison cures and a place to live, all upon demand is purely helpful... just because four of the six things s/he can do is helpful means they're purely helpful? I think that's bull.
Also, I think that your idea to make magickers only sponsored roles will do exactly the opposite of what you expect. It will do little beyond limit the number of magickers, and make it even harder for them to socialize with anyone. The only way I can think that this would make them scarier is if they got coded bumps (being that sponsored roles do get this, depending on the type of sponsored role) as well and every player knew this was the case. This usually comes in the form of bumps to starting skills, though, which would only mean they branched faster from their first tier spells and wouldn't make them any scarier overall. It may limit the number of non-bad-guy magickers, if that's the goal, but that is like saying that noone can play a friendly thief or warrior, which is to say, a pile of crap.
Regarding people not being safe in lawful areas, I should remind you that places that are not heavily populated at night may just allow you to cast without being crim'd. Don't assume you're safe just because you're in lawful areas, as most people do when they start getting up in gemmers' faces.
Quote from: spawnloser on March 18, 2010, 04:32:54 AM
Go spend time around a magicker outside the city gates and piss him/her off. I can guarantee you, if that magicker has 15 days played, your death will be swift and sure.
Sorry, man, but that concept right there why gickers tend not to be as scary as Lady Tors or Lord Templar Fales. That situation doesn't inspire fear. It inspires hate. Getting pwned is not fun, and the reaction tends to be "revenge."
Think of how the best of our southern nobles inspire fear, or the nearly cliched crime-lord (who turns out to be an unpracticed pickpocket or merchant.) They don't tend to waltz around blasting people in the face. It's sheer presence, you might even call it bluff, not sheer pwnage.
Quote from: Marc on March 18, 2010, 04:30:04 AM
Quote from: Myrdryn on March 18, 2010, 03:03:57 AM
What would make players roleplay being more afraid of magickers?
Coded effects that can get around the crim-code.
Evil-eyes/curses that are subtle enough that the militia might not pick up on it but will screw with people.
If people know that they are not(entirely) safe in lawful areas, it'll make a difference. If the line for criminal-free castings gets fudged to include more than cantrips, mages will have a coded way to remind people why they should be feared without risking dead characters. It works the other way to: there are coded effects. The authorities can see those and respond accordingly.
PC's WITH these abilities (most magickers) would have to be bitch slapped hard for abuse.
Dry eyes
The runs
Hallucinations
Uncontrollable sneezing
Not having the ability to CONTROL THE VOLUME OF YOUR VOICE
Fun fun fun fun fun
THIS.
Quote from: Marc on March 18, 2010, 04:30:04 AM
Quote from: Myrdryn on March 18, 2010, 03:03:57 AM
What would make players roleplay being more afraid of magickers?
Coded effects that can get around the crim-code.
Sums it up.
Lady Fale is scary because she can make ungodly trouble for you even if--especially if--you never leave the city. The common OOC perception is that the average gemmed mage cannot touch you as long as you stay inside Allanak, or at least not without getting killed or exiled himself.
Magicker-fear, unlike kank-riding elves, can have many shades of expression. When players have lots of options, their play is likely to be colored by what they think is codedly possible.
Quote from: Malken on March 18, 2010, 03:18:28 AM
Quote from: Myrdryn on March 18, 2010, 03:03:57 AM
What would make players roleplay being more afraid of magickers?
Coded effects, for sure. Spells backfiring, spells leaving undesirable effects.. Random curses..
Someone mentioned Final Fantasy 13 and how they had the "Magicker hatred" perfectly down.. If someone is near the magicker when they cast a spell, they could get the bad luck of getting cursed for a period of time..
If you stay outside for too long, the sun hits you hard at some point. Why not do the same thing for magickers? If you hang around one for too long, something bad could happen..
While Marc's idea is a very good one, Malken here puts another point. With the above post, mundane-magicker friendly levels can be brought in accordance with the documentation.
So... Both of them added to the code would do wonders.
A powerful disgruntled magicker could easily kill every living soul in the Gaj before anyone was able to come to the rescue.
I'm just sayin'. You push a fellow too hard, and he just might push back. That's why you should be afraid. Anyone who was at the gates during the last HRPT in Allanak knows what's up with that.
Every commoner in Allanak should be afraid of magick right now, because there have been at least two events in every currently living PC's lifetime that demonstrated exactly how dangerous magick is, in a very real, in-your-face way, right in the Gaj, even.
Quote from: Synthesis on March 18, 2010, 10:26:50 AM
A powerful disgruntled magicker could easily kill every living soul in the Gaj before anyone was able to come to the rescue.
But he will not be able to live in Allanak anymore. I doubt there is a bribe big enough for a templar to forget that kind of "out-in-the-open-magick" especially given the current state of Allanak. If everyone knows this, the mage has to hate the guy enough to live in the wastes or enough to have himself killed as a result of it. So, that does not really cut it.
Quote from: Ghost on March 18, 2010, 10:29:27 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on March 18, 2010, 10:26:50 AM
A powerful disgruntled magicker could easily kill every living soul in the Gaj before anyone was able to come to the rescue.
But he will not be able to live in Allanak anymore. I doubt there is a bribe big enough for a templar to forget that kind of "out-in-the-open-magick" especially given the current state of Allanak. If everyone knows this, the mage has to hate the guy enough to live in the wastes or enough to have himself killed as a result of it. So, that does not really cut it.
Yeah, because people never commit suicide by cop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_by_cop) in real life.
I am not saying it is impossible. But to piss someone off enough for them to take a highly possible death is not a common occurrence and will not help to the fear of magick.
Coded minor effects that that go around crime code, also coded backfire/badluck chances on the other hand could be more frequent.
I fear sharks, and I have never so much as seen a shark in the wild.
No shark has ever subtly bit me without me knowing it, causing me to have bad luck for days, yet I still fear them.
The problem is with shitty roleplayers, not with the code.
While I don't normally agree with Gimf ... err wait.
I fear sharks in the wild too.
I do not fear sharks at Sea World or the Aquarium, because they can't get at me.
I think there is a comparble analogy there to be had for the gemmed in Allanak.
Quote from: Synthesis on March 18, 2010, 10:33:15 AM
Yeah, because people never commit suicide by cop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_by_cop) in real life.
The documentation does state that Zalanthans commit suicide at extremely low rates compared to fictional characters in real life.
Quote from: musashi on March 18, 2010, 10:56:49 AM
While I don't normally agree with Gimf ... err wait.
I fear sharks in the wild too.
I do not fear sharks at Sea World or the Aquarium, because they can't get at me.
I think there is a comparble analogy there to be had for the gemmed in Allanak.
The appropriate comparison is this:
There is a man sitting in a bar with a loaded AK-47.
There is also a cop sitting in the bar.
Do you spit on the AK-47 guy and kick his stool out from under him, just because you know the cop will kill him if he kills you?
Quote from: Myrdryn on March 18, 2010, 03:03:57 AM
What would make players roleplay being more afraid of magickers?
If universal fear/hatred of magickers is really your MO:Make magickers rare enough that encountering one is SO much of a surprise that you have no idea ICly or OOCly what to expect or how to react. I've always felt this should be the sole province of sorcerers and psionicists, because otherwise you basically alienate a good portion of the game's class choices (elementalists) due to this artificial fear factor, which I still consider an errant mission.
If you want mundanes to have an IC reason to fear magick despite the current climate:Make being near a magicker codedly uncomfortable, disconcerting, or dangerous. Forcing something like "fear" on an entire section of the playerbase requires an environment capable of reinforcing that emotion or maintaining a source of that fear. Right now, magickers are like guns. You don't fear them unless they point at you with the ability and intent to fire. The criminal system in Allanak muzzles them to the point of impotence. And simply
being a magicker, especially one that shares an ale with you at the bar as they chat about their family, hopes, and dreams, isn't enough by itself.
If you want people to have a somewhat realistic choice:Remove the universal hatred and fear of magick, and allow PC's to fear the
character that chooses to use their powerful magicks in a negative fashion toward their PC and/or civilization. Asking PC's to fear something that is so prevalent (in Allanak) and where a significant portion of the characters consistently seek non-violent or cooperative interaction with the playerbase sends mixed signals and makes it extremely difficult for both sides to keep honest.
It's like going to a haunted house where the owner tells you, "Be very scared of the people inside, they're CRAZY!" Except, the people who are "supposed" to be scary not only -don't- scare you, but ask if they can hang out with you or if they can work for you. After about 5 rooms of people just wanting to be involved with you in some non-scary way, the behavior begins to change your perception.
I still question the motives to maintain this universal fear and hatred for magick wholesale, since it really narrows and limits the social potential for magicker characters. Why is there such a strong push to maintain this, in spite of it being difficult to maintain amongst the player base as many of these magicker characters strive for employment, tolerance, peace, and social acceptance? Why can't we fear the character instead of the class? Making the classes with the highest potential for coded power the one with the least propensity for cooperative, peaceful, and positive social interaction only seems like it will achieve more threads like this.
-LoD
Quote from: LoD on March 18, 2010, 11:19:16 AM
Make being near a magicker codedly uncomfortable, disconcerting, or dangerous. Forcing something like "fear" on an entire section of the playerbase requires an environment capable of reinforcing that emotion or maintaining a source of that fear. Right now, magickers are like guns. You don't fear them unless they point at you with the ability and intent to fire. The criminal system in Allanak muzzles them to the point of impotence. And simply being a magicker, especially one that shares an ale with you at the bar as they chat about their family, hopes, and dreams, isn't enough by itself.
There are magickers not wearing a gem and remaining as incognito as they can. If "bad" things happened around them they would be revealed pretty quickly.
Quote from: LoD on March 18, 2010, 11:19:16 AM
I still question the motives to maintain this universal fear and hatred for magick wholesale, since it really narrows and limits the social potential for magicker characters.
Class balance, I suspect, may be why things are set up as they are.
If elementalists were brought in-line with their mundane cousins in terms of potential and advancement rate, if their super powers were much less overt, then you could mix the two more readily without as much whining. At least without as much whining from me. As it stands, the fair trade of playing an ele is a severe social stigma -- which is not enforced via code and therefore barely extant. (In fact, from a purely coded perspective, the gemmed have superior social options to a mundane.)
Note to magicker players -- the fact that your PC is feared is not supposed to be an advantage. It's flavor or it's class balance. I don't think the intended purpose of magicker fear is to extend the size of e-peens. Besides, templars and nobles are supposed to have the swaggering, swinging, massive e-peens. That's how the game works, and it's a good thing.
The root of the problem: Too many people have karma to allow elementalists to be a clearly superior class choice over mundanes, or else you end up with Captain Planet rather than Armageddon MUD. However, the social trade off for choosing to be an elementalist is bad for a game with a small population of players and has proven itself difficult to enforce besides.
It would require some serious nerfing of elemental potential for it work, or an alternative balancing mechanic put in place, along with in-game changes to how Allanaki society deals with the gemmed. Changes like that are difficult. In addition to the design and coding work, there would be a shitstorm of complaints from the magick-as-epeen faction. Probably it's all been thought about and addressed over in Arm.2-land.
Question is then, what, if anything, to do about the Eternal-Problem in arm.1. The one thing we can categorically say is that, "Roleplay better, you shitty roleplayers," doesn't work. Arm really does have just about the best roleplayers you're going to find anywhere. If magicker-hate as class balance without supporting code doesn't work here, then it's just not going to work. That isn't anyone's fault -- so assigning blame and trying to berate people into behaving differently is futile. I know it's futile, because it's been tried for years and years, with practically no success.
Quote from: janeshephard on March 18, 2010, 11:52:09 AM
Quote from: LoD on March 18, 2010, 11:19:16 AM
Make being near a magicker codedly uncomfortable, disconcerting, or dangerous. Forcing something like "fear" on an entire section of the playerbase requires an environment capable of reinforcing that emotion or maintaining a source of that fear. Right now, magickers are like guns. You don't fear them unless they point at you with the ability and intent to fire. The criminal system in Allanak muzzles them to the point of impotence. And simply being a magicker, especially one that shares an ale with you at the bar as they chat about their family, hopes, and dreams, isn't enough by itself.
There are magickers not wearing a gem and remaining as incognito as they can. If "bad" things happened around them they would be revealed pretty quickly.
They should be. It would be MUCH harder for a city-dweller to 'hide' your touch to an element if the virtual world were taken into account than is the case based solely on current code, especially in Allanak.
Quote from: number13 on March 18, 2010, 11:54:06 AM
The one thing we can categorically say is that, "Roleplay better, you shitty roleplayers," doesn't work.
Note to magicker players -- the fact that your PC is feared is not supposed to be an advantage. It's flavor or it's class balance. I don't think the intended purpose of magicker fear is to extend the size of e-peens.
???
Wait so ... you mean "roleplay better, you shitty mundane rolerplayers" doesn't work, but "roleplay better you shitty magicker roleplayers" is worth a shot?
EDIT: Also Ghost is a dick. A whole bag of them in fact.
Quote from: number13 on March 18, 2010, 04:57:47 AM
Quote from: spawnloser on March 18, 2010, 04:32:54 AM
Go spend time around a magicker outside the city gates and piss him/her off. I can guarantee you, if that magicker has 15 days played, your death will be swift and sure.
Sorry, man, but that concept right there why gickers tend not to be as scary as Lady Tors or Lord Templar Fales. That situation doesn't inspire fear. It inspires hate. Getting pwned is not fun, and the reaction tends to be "revenge."
Think of how the best of our southern nobles inspire fear, or the nearly cliched crime-lord (who turns out to be an unpracticed pickpocket or merchant.) They don't tend to waltz around blasting people in the face. It's sheer presence, you might even call it bluff, not sheer pwnage.
THAT'S THE PROBLEM! YOUR anger is the problem, and your hatred of being pwned. Your character should fear being pwned because it means your character's life is no longer in your hands but another's hands, like when you face down a templar. Hatred is generally regarded as the LAST thing you want to show the templar when s/he has you in a jail cell because it means your character could be summarily executed at that character's whim. Magickers can do this, given the opportunity and reason. They are that powerful. They can blast entire civilizations out of existence, so your character should be pretty damn scared that his/her life could be blasted out of existence pretty easily.
YOU hate being pwned. YOUR CHARACTER is scared of being killed (or worse) with a couple words and a gesture.
I would like to see magickers have minor negative effects that can happen behind the scenes to mundanes spending too much time in contact with them. Templars should be immune from such effects, IMO. I also think that the selections of those effects should vary from mage to mage and those mages should be able to intentionally bring them about in others through cantrips than cannot typically be detected when cast.
Quote from: number13 on March 18, 2010, 11:54:06 AM
However, the social trade off for choosing to be an elementalist is bad for a game with a small population of players and has proven itself difficult to enforce besides. It would require some serious nerfing of elemental potential for it work, or an alternative balancing mechanic put in place, along with in-game changes to how Allanaki society deals with the gemmed.
This is the single largest issue with the success, or lack thereof, in supporting the current documentation surrounding fear of magick.
Elementalists, as a whole, comprise too large of the player demographic to be treated as monsters. Yet, that is what the current sequence of IC events, code changes, and staff support achieves. It's the source of almost every thread that has occurred on the subject of magicker-mundane relations.
The Cataclysm that destroyed Tuluk forced its entire elementalist population, and any future elementalist that wanted to hail from a region other than Allanak, into the wilderness, which exploited their anemic model for spell progression and where they were no longer protected by the same social safety net mundanes enjoy within the city proper. Because of this, the elementalist class was given "teeth" with which to defend themselves. However, this patch was applied wholesale to every elementalist, with the idea that they would still be a rarity amongst the player base. And that had largely been the case, because successfully developing a powerful elementalist via the older system often took months, and even years, to reach the potential many elementalists can now reach in weeks.
Unfortunately, certain events either weren't considered or able to be predicted when such changes occurred:
> Players continued to gain karma, with a larger portion of them beginning to experiment with the high-karma class options.
> Players continued to apply for high-karma class options via special app.
> Players decided to try out high-karma classes when Armageddon 2 was announced.
When the last of these factors came into play, the pot boiled over and there was a strong player reaction to the severe influx of magick and power into the game. One of the byproducts of giving all elementalists "teeth" was that they were suddenly escalated far closer to the psionicist/sorcerer category of threat than ever before, whom we all know are hunted and killed on sight. They aren't hunted down and killed because the mundanes are
unafraid, but because they are too afraid of what will happen if they do nothing.
Treating elementalists as monsters also creates issues from a playability standpoint. It just doesn't work. There aren't enough players to support a mini-game for the high-karma, magickal classes to remain happily isolated from the mundane population. Because of this, elementalists are required (by lack of numbers) to participate in mundane life, as employees, allies, enemies and friends. The lack of balance between the classes is starkly represented when a large-scale plot line develops amongst the player base. As the elementalists are too few, and the player base too small, for them to have their own entire agenda, they must share the stage with the mundanes more often than not -- which often results in the threads where mundanes complain that their efforts are being overshadowed or trivialized by the elementalists.
An environment of fear and hatred for the current power potential of an elementalist is probably warranted, but it sure isn't conducive to creating a variety of options for magick-mundane RP. And it certainly doesn't map well to our small player base. The true and accurate place of an elementalist in Allanaki society would likely be considered too isolated, boring, and removed for the average Armageddon player, especially for repeat play. How they integrate into both the power structure and the social structure of the game has everything to do with the issues people are experiencing with regards to expressing "fear and hatred" toward them.
The documentation is trying to pick up water with chopsticks, and has both sides saying, "You're holding the sticks wrong!"
-LoD
^^ That is the single best post I've seen in a magicker thread, ever. gg, LoD, thread over.
Ideally, things would be handled through the social side. People hanging out and apparently friendly with magickers would be ostracized if they didn't have a good reason (like business). However, our playerbase is small enough that excluding magickers and those people never seems to happen.
Compound this with enough people having either played with a mage or having played one to understand mostly what a mage can do with their coded powers. So, if you add in more coded things...eventually people will know about those too.
I think the solution lies in un-coded powers. Mages have utilized these in the past. Most often, as far as I have seen, in epic, world-changing ways. I think it would fit more in with the staff philosophy I have seen espoused over the last couple of years to focus these abilities on a smaller scale. Allow magickers to engage the uncoded side of magick on a smaller, more personal scale.
So, something like Vivaduan feels rejected by a former lover, so they shrivel up their junk. Sure, there should be hurdles for the magicker to be able to accomplish this. Sure, there should be some solution the victim can find to their problem. But it should be more than possible, it should be relatively frequent. And, as you might suspect, get around the coded aspect of the crim code quite handily (as something like this could result in a simple staff email informing the victim of the state of their junk, or a change to their description, or something coded the staff could put on).
Another way is random magickal animations by staff, sort of how they do NPC animations. Been spam casting for awhile? You've created a preponderance of your element that burns you unintentionally. Or, wow, something creepy with the shadows just happened to that gemmer, what is all that about? Or better, something creepy with the shadows just happened to -me-, and they all seem to be clinging to me like wet silk now, it must be that gemmer over there!
The great thing about these is that you are now facing the imaginations of magicker players and staff, rather than some fairly static code. Good luck in figuring out what that gemmer can do to you.
Quote from: LoD on March 18, 2010, 04:17:36 PM
The lack of balance between the classes is starkly represented when a large-scale plot line develops amongst the player base. As with the mundanes more often than not -- which often results in the threads where mundanes complain that their efforts are being overshadowed or trivialized by the elementalists.
I've seen this handled IC so far. I think that's where it should be kept. If a gemmer is overshadowing your contributions deal with it in game.
Quote from: LoD on March 18, 2010, 04:17:36 PM
There aren't enough players to support a mini-game for the high-karma, magickal classes to remain happily isolated from the mundane population.
One thing that would really help with this though, for gemmed at least, is if they were concentrated into one structure instead of divided among six temples set into a big quarter, isolating everyone. That would go a long way toward promoting a community to form.
Quote from: Salt Merchant on March 18, 2010, 06:53:19 PM
Quote from: LoD on March 18, 2010, 04:17:36 PM
There aren't enough players to support a mini-game for the high-karma, magickal classes to remain happily isolated from the mundane population.
One thing that would really help with this though, for gemmed at least, is if they were concentrated into one structure instead of divided among six temples set into a big quarter, isolating everyone. That would go a long way toward promoting a community to form.
[partial sarcasm]
But that would further isolate the magicker character population from the rest of the characters IG as they would all congregate in that one building and "skill max!" They need to get out where everyone can spit on them, hate them (never fear, of course. That's just not fun for the mundane players involved), and ostracize them from society. They shouldn't have a place where they can hide out and be out of sight where social rejection has put them, blah, blah, blah.[/partial sarcasm]
[simplification] Documentation says magickers are feared and hated. They are rejected from most of society, which wants them holed up in their Quarter of Allanak or outside the walls and rogue. They will not have a single place for themselves to congregate, due to OOC and IG decisions.[/simplification]
Playing a magicker is being a pariah to the rest of the player base. While role-play does not necessarily mean social interaction, that is a large part of the game for a dare say the majority of players to a lesser or greater extent. From what I read, they were intended to be a partially "anit-social" roll..which creates all sorts of problems when by their nature, they can become powerful, code-wise, by having all that "free time" on their hands and no interaction beyond hate coming their way (precious little fear. That's just not fun for mundane players! ...Documentation says to be afraid of them? Screw that, that's (apparently) only for people with karma roles, not me!), it's little wonder that many players of magicker characters will try their best to be as helpful and productive to the rest of the player base so as to integrate themselves as best as possible into whatever plots, interactions and storylines are going on. For many, it's not fun playing alone.
Some people have accused this of being "against the documentation."
On the other side, we have mundane players who are all for playing up the "hate" side of the documentations against magickers, but not too keen on being afraid of them. Reasons have been explained and used as evidence for this sort of play and feelings, reasons that can be seen as valid, yes. Unfortunately, too much hate and little to no fear is "against the documentation" as much as someone being friendly with a magicker in public and private. Role-playing is as much a responsibility of a player of mundane character's as it is a player of magicker character's. Just because the one currently has a higher karma guild role
does not negate your own responsibility to keep to the documentation, even if it's something you don't like to do. Mundanes are not absolved of their requirements to stick to the documentation when they see someone of a higher guild "not doing so."Now, it seems I have picked a lot on mundane characters and players in this post. From my point of view, this is mostly a reaction to the arguments put forward in posts made to defend mundane RP and criticize magicker RP. I have found only a bit little of it to be informative or inclusive to the discussion (such as it is), and much of it to be the opinions of what feels like some who are trying to evade their own personal responsibility in favor of their fun over the fun of someone else. This hasn't been exclusive to one side, no. I admit that. But I have seen far more of it on one side than the other.
Everyone has played within and without the bounds, rules and roles set by the documentation. Magicker and Mundane alike. Either we all need to "suck it up" a little and adhere to the docs and play out the fear as much as the hate despite what we may like, and accept that in this incarnation of Armageddon magickers just
won't be socially acceptable and integrated into the rest of the player base despite what we may like, or there needs to be a change in the documentation. My personal feelings is that there is not enough "ebb and flow" allowed within them as touching upon this subject of magicker-mundane interaction and social play. It is far too ridged, especially after such a long history behind the game. I do not advocate a "break" but a "bend." Too much change will change the game into something that is just wasn't before, and that will signal the beginning of the end (ironically enough, this was already accomplished by "The Announcement" several years ago), but no change
at all will continue to spawn situations in which threads such as this one and the IG situations they spring from, continue to happen.
Edited for better spacing for better reading.
Where did this strawman about people only hating magickers come from, anyway?
Quote from: hyzhenhok on March 18, 2010, 07:56:16 PM
Where did this strawman about people only hating magickers come from, anyway?
Can't say for anyone else, but for me, it's the fear that if I play a magicker character out to hate and fear mundanes, "Not Good" things will eventually crop up on the GDB. Looking at it from a magicker character's perspective, if they have access to arcane powers that can twist someone from the inside out without putting them in too much danger with the proper preparation, then it seems perfectly logical and "no duh!" to use them for such a purpose, should they be the sort that is inclined towards doing so..or someone who isn't but gets pushed into a situation where they would for any number of reasons.
If I end up having a character that does this and has a number of PC kills or near kills in their belt due to the consequences of their IC actions and their reactions to those of the other players, then sad experience has proven that it just kicks up more turmoil on the GDB. The backlash just isn't kept IG.
Edit: I have
yet to see a thread made that started with someone having an issue with how mundanes are treating magickers. It's been the other-way-around and only once the thread is made has this been pointed out or posted.
So, I've been thinking. The way I see it, following LoD's argument, we can make magickers more tolerated as he suggests... or less. LoD suggests that making them more tolerated would make shift things in a way that would make the game more playable. I would posit that this may be true, but would shifting it the other way make it less playable? I don't think so.
I would suggest that making them less tolerated would force more of them into under-cover mode, like playing a magicker in Tuluk is now. I would not begin to suggest a way this should be done... since we're discussing Arm1.0, which means the only way this could be done is through IC means. There are many ways to this, I would suggest, also.
See, the reason I think that making magickers less tolerated would also work would force more of them into under-cover until discovered, since discovery is always a possibility, and then into a primarily adversarial role... and of course, people could start out more adversarial if they wanted to. Making the more adversarial, would very possibly have the desired result for Arm1.0 of making people fear magickers more, since more people would start to see the angry end of the magickers around them and begin to understand why they should be scared, even by strict code limitations, and without being a twink, too.
In Arm2.0, of course we will have multi-classing, which will change the whole nature of the beast. In that case, I would suggest that LoD's assertions would indeed make the game a better one. With what we've been told of the intention for multi-classing, magickers that are multi-classed with a non-magicker class will likely get fewer spells that don't get as powerful as a non-multiclassed magicker would get, but they lose this in trade for having mundane skills in addition to their magickal ones. As far as we know, there won't be any tertiary sub-guilds, too, so if you want to play a magicker crafter, you won't be a straight-up caster and then... we can do things with segregation in and all sorts of fun things in Arm2.0 because there can be, as suggested, a difference in fear/mistrust/hatred/prejudice for pure casters and multi-classed casters. Hell, we could possibly even have fun titles that differentiate the two in a purely IC way, too. The sky's the limit and we don't know enough to come up with too many arguments about societal things in Arm2.0, since we don't know all that there will be to publicly know about Arm2.0 in that vein or have any data (even anecdotal evidence) about it yet to make any good predictions.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on March 18, 2010, 07:56:16 PM
Where did this strawman about people only hating magickers come from, anyway?
I can only speak from personal experience but last time I played a gemmed I got a lot more "i hate you you fecking finger wiggler' and botched assassination attempts rather than obvious signs of fear. Which I was felt was pretty crappy roleplay especially giving I was playing a pretty freaking powerful Krathi. In fact on several occasions I had people go out there way to pick verbal fights with my PC by which I mean coming over to my table and start hurling profanities at me when I was minding my own business sitting with my gemmed hommies.
Quote from: Bast on March 18, 2010, 09:13:43 PM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on March 18, 2010, 07:56:16 PM
Where did this strawman about people only hating magickers come from, anyway?
I can only speak from personal experience but last time I played a gemmed I got a lot more "i hate you you fecking finger wiggler' and botched assassination attempts rather than obvious signs of fear. Which I was felt was pretty crappy roleplay especially giving I was playing a pretty freaking powerful Krathi. In fact on several occasions I had people go out there way to pick verbal fights with my PC by which I mean coming over to my table and start hurling profanities at me when I was minding my own business sitting with my gemmed hommies.
The last time I RP'd being afraid of a gemmer, my character was treated like they were a moron, even by the gemmer themselves. I've gotten the impression that fear of magick is an OOC construct forced upon us, to be discarded at the slightest IC excuse, such as being ordered to man up by your superior. Obviously the roleplay is not perfect. Magickers happily sitting at bars and players complaining about gemmers being socially isolated probably doesn't help any, though.
Quote from: Pale HorseEdit: I have yet to see a thread made that started with someone having an issue with how mundanes are treating magickers. It's been the other-way-around and only once the thread is made has this been pointed out or posted.
I
think there is some indignation that those damn mundanes aren't roleplaying properly, so why should we magickers have to, which of course rather silly.
There are isolated problems with the roleplay in general, not with any specific party. I don't think the current situation is terribly broken or that there is a serious problem at all, really. My original suggestion was some simple echoes implemented in taverns that would both discourage gemmers from trying to integrate and cue mundanes to gear up their fear/hate drives. I don't think it's 100% necessary, but I do think it would add to the game.
Quote from: Pale HorseEdit: I have yet to see a thread made that started with someone having an issue with how mundanes are treating magickers. It's been the other-way-around and only once the thread is made has this been pointed out or posted.
I
think there is some indignation that those damn mundanes aren't roleplaying properly, so why should we magickers have to, which of course rather silly.
There are isolated problems with the roleplay in general, not with any specific party. I don't think the current situation is terribly broken or that there is a serious problem at all, really. My original suggestion was some simple echoes implemented in taverns that would both discourage gemmers from trying to integrate and cue mundanes to gear up their fear/hate drives. I don't think it's 100% necessary, but I do think it would add to the game.
[/quote]
This would completely kill the idea of a player playing a magicker that doesn't know they are one yet. You'd just walk into a bar and instantly know your a elementalist. I think it would take away from some very interesting roleplay situations. It would also be the end of all closet magickers.
Seems to me the best choice for a gemmer is to just not visit the taverns at all. This way:
. No one complains about there being too many gemmed (seems to happen every time someone spots more than two together).
. No one complains about gemmed acting too friendly.
. No one complains about other people not treating gemmed harshly enough.
. No one complains about gemmed being overpowered.
. No one complains about militia or other people defending the gemmed.
. No one complains about the gemmed not doing enough to create an atmosphere of fear.
. No one complains about all the complaining.
. No one even complains about your gemmer sitting in a temple too much because they don't know.
Why not just remove being gemmed from the game, and at the same time create a magicker haven somewhere. Then the mundanocentrics and karma-envy-impaired could all be happy, and it would be a noticeable improvement for magickers too to have a home somewhere. Or keep the gem but the elementalist's quarter gets removed from the city and the gemmed are placed in an outpost somewhere. The separation would help to promote the sense of rarity so many people have said they'd prefer in the game.
Quote from: Salt Merchant on March 18, 2010, 10:05:30 PM
Or keep the gem but the elementalist's quarter gets removed from the city and the gemmed are placed in an outpost somewhere. The separation would help to promote the sense of rarity so many people have said they'd prefer in the game.
I like the outpost idea. It even makes IC sense to me. The only trouble is putting guards there. They won't want to work there.
Quote from: Salt Merchant on March 18, 2010, 10:05:30 PM
Seems to me the best choice for a gemmer is to just not visit the taverns at all. This way:
. No one complains about there being too many gemmed (seems to happen every time someone spots more than two together).
. No one complains about gemmed acting too friendly.
. No one complains about other people not treating gemmed harshly enough.
. No one complains about gemmed being overpowered.
. No one complains about militia or other people defending the gemmed.
. No one complains about the gemmed not doing enough to create an atmosphere of fear.
. No one complains about all the complaining.
. No one even complains about your gemmer sitting in a temple too much because they don't know.
Why not just remove being gemmed from the game, and at the same time create a magicker haven somewhere. Then the mundanocentrics and karma-envy-impaired could all be happy, and it would be a noticeable improvement for magickers too to have a home somewhere. Or keep the gem but the elementalist's quarter gets removed from the city and the gemmed are placed in an outpost somewhere. The separation would help to promote the sense of rarity so many people have said they'd prefer in the game.
I agree ;) :D ...I think there used to be a fort full a gemmed at one point. Though even just putting a bar in the gemmers quarter in Nak would likely fix this. Just make the shop keeper a Viv and the cook a Ruk ;)
Meh, one of the cities would get worries about them becoming too powerful and wipe them out.
Quote from: Bast on March 18, 2010, 09:13:43 PM
I played a gemmed I got a lot more "i hate you you fecking finger wiggler' and botched assassination attempts rather than obvious signs of fear. Which I was felt was pretty crappy roleplay especially giving I was playing a pretty freaking powerful Krathi. In fact on several occasions I had people go out there way to pick verbal fights with my PC by which I mean coming over to my table and start hurling profanities at me when I was minding my own business sitting with my gemmed hommies.
I submit there's plenty of IC justification for this. There's NPCs right now protesting right in front of the quarter. Do you think they are there to nice to passing gemmers?
These are people who are having magical calamity after magical calamity visited on them. For the common citizen, there probably doesn't look like there's a recourse. Trusting in the Highlord didn't save their wife/son/neighbor. They are literally starving to death. What are they supposed to do about it? Wait to die? The gemmers are an obvious available target. A commoner convinced that he is going to die due to random magickal explosions anyway, might very well become the cornered rat, lashing out due to fear.
Again, the fear/hate of magickers isn't supposed to work to their -advantage-. A few magickers seem to expect to wield the fear/hate stick to earn automatic respect. But it's not the type of fear of Templar or fear of Gage Gritshaw that lets that kind of character swagger around. This is the fear of Frankenstein, an inspiration for mobs to take up torches and chase the monster.
Quote from: number13 on March 18, 2010, 10:54:19 PM
Quote from: Bast on March 18, 2010, 09:13:43 PM
I played a gemmed I got a lot more "i hate you you fecking finger wiggler' and botched assassination attempts rather than obvious signs of fear. Which I was felt was pretty crappy roleplay especially giving I was playing a pretty freaking powerful Krathi. In fact on several occasions I had people go out there way to pick verbal fights with my PC by which I mean coming over to my table and start hurling profanities at me when I was minding my own business sitting with my gemmed hommies.
I submit there's plenty of IC justification for this. There's NPCs right now protesting right in front of the quarter. Do you think they are there to nice to passing gemmers?
These are people who are having magical calamity after magical calamity visited on them. For the common citizen, there probably doesn't look like there's a recourse. Trusting in the Highlord didn't save their wife/son/neighbor. They are literally starving to death. What are they supposed to do about it? Wait to die? The gemmers are an obvious available target. A commoner convinced that he is going to die due to random magickal explosions anyway, might very well become the cornered rat, lashing out due to fear.
Again, the fear/hate of magickers isn't supposed to work to their -advantage-. A few magickers seem to expect to wield the fear/hate stick to earn respect. But it's not the type of fear of Templar or fear of Gage Gritshaw that lets that kind of character swagger around. This is the fear of Frankenstein, an inspiration for mobs to take up torches and chase the monster.
First off this was way way before all those things your talking about happened. Secondly yes I am well aware magickers are an easy target. And I have no issue with a fear response or even occasional anger, glares, under the breath comments. However when I play mundanes unless circumstances prove otherwise I live in fear of mages. I mean honestly if you know someone is capable (or believe they are) of causing plagues, mass famines, and blasting people to ash where they stand (oh and eating babies ;) ) are you really gonna tell me your first response is to walk over and try to pick a fight? Even if you hate them to death I would think most people wouldn't walk right up and say it to their faces or be silly enough to attack them in their temple. Honestly when I play a gemmed I'm normally going into the role expecting to get ignored, used by Templar, and being socially ostracized. In way that's part of the fun of playing a magicker.
Quote from: bastThis would completely kill the idea of a player playing a magicker that doesn't know they are one yet. You'd just walk into a bar and instantly know your a elementalist. I think it would take away from some very interesting roleplay situations. It would also be the end of all closet magickers.
No, the idea was to apply it to
gemmed characters.
Quote from: Salt Merchant on March 18, 2010, 10:05:30 PMkarma-envy-impaired
Is this what it boils down to? You're ranting against a strawman because someone (who probably has less karma than you) dared suggest that you, the karma-endowed, proven Zalanthan roleplaying expert, can't play and enjoy a gemmed exactly how you want to?
Quote from: hyzhenhok on March 18, 2010, 11:21:28 PM
Quote from: bastThis would completely kill the idea of a player playing a magicker that doesn't know they are one yet. You'd just walk into a bar and instantly know your a elementalist. I think it would take away from some very interesting roleplay situations. It would also be the end of all closet magickers.
No, the idea was to apply it to gemmed characters.
Quote from: Salt Merchant on March 18, 2010, 10:05:30 PMkarma-envy-impaired
Is this what it boils down to? You're ranting against a strawman because someone (who probably has less karma than you) dared suggest that you, the karma-endowed, proven Zalanthan roleplaying expert, can't play and enjoy a gemmed exactly how you want to?
Its hardly fair to only apply that to the gemmed as it would imply something about the -gem- itself not the mage causes the effect and I don't see the Templar or the Highlord doing such a thing.
Quote from: Bast on March 18, 2010, 11:25:30 PM
Its hardly fair to only apply that to the gemmed as it would imply something about the -gem- itself not the mage causes the effect and I don't see the Templar or the Highlord doing such a thing.
Echoes and scripts like a bartender frowning when you sit at his bar. Nothing more. Obviously the bartender would be reacting to the gem, not the fact that you're a magicker.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on March 18, 2010, 11:33:09 PM
Quote from: Bast on March 18, 2010, 11:25:30 PM
Its hardly fair to only apply that to the gemmed as it would imply something about the -gem- itself not the mage causes the effect and I don't see the Templar or the Highlord doing such a thing.
Echoes and scripts like a bartender frowning when you sit at his bar. Nothing more. Obviously the bartender would be reacting to the gem, not the fact that you're a magicker.
Oh okay...yeah I could see that. I thought you were saying cantrip like echos. I must have miss read it. sorry ;D
Quote from: hyzhenhok on March 18, 2010, 11:21:28 PM
Is this what it boils down to? You're ranting against a strawman because someone (who probably has less karma than you) dared suggest that you, the karma-endowed, proven Zalanthan roleplaying expert, can't play and enjoy a gemmed exactly how you want to?
I'm ranting now, am I? Let he who casts the first stone...
Actually, I thought I summarized the whole situation rather tidily.
Quote from: Fantasy Writer
Meh, one of the cities would get worries about them becoming too powerful and wipe them out.
Not if they were still gemmed. There could be a few templars or Oashi overseers stationed about. The gemmed themselves could guard the entrance (in fact, the entrance could well be "special" in the same sense as the temples').
Remember the primary function of the gem.
Used to be such a place, Staff shut it down.
QuoteI think there is some indignation that those damn mundanes aren't roleplaying properly, so why should we magickers have to, which of course rather silly.
By your own statements over the subject, the magicker players are karma'd players who have earn the trust of the staff to roleplay it properly. You are still laying all the blame over the issue on the magicker players rather than accepting that it -might- be at least in part in the fault of the mundane players not following the documentation and playing the part of the mundane in this gameworld being responsible just as much for it as well as the players of the magickers. It isn't just on the part of the karma'd players to play their magicker pcs within the documentation, it is just as much the part of the other players to strive to do so as well.
It seems to me that you have just as much indignation about having to roleplay fear of magick/magickers as you are accusing them of.
Quote from: X-D on March 19, 2010, 12:30:33 AM
Used to be such a place, Staff shut it down.
You are totally right. There was an attempt at a reincarnation of such which was also destroyed.
Quote from: Salt Merchant on March 18, 2010, 11:43:20 PM
Quote from: Fantasy Writer
Meh, one of the cities would get worries about them becoming too powerful and wipe them out.
Not if they were still gemmed. There could be a few templars or Oashi overseers stationed about. The gemmed themselves could guard the entrance (in fact, the entrance could well be "special" in the same sense as the temples').
Remember the primary function of the gem.
I don't know if it should be a gemmed -only- fort or what not but it would be very cool to see something akin to this or maybe even a gemmed bar in the elementalist quarter. Might even attract more rogues to take a gem as well.
Quote from: Myrdryn on March 18, 2010, 03:03:57 AM
What would make players roleplay being more afraid of magickers?
Quote from: LoD on March 18, 2010, 11:19:16 AM
I still question the motives to maintain this universal fear and hatred for magick wholesale, since it really narrows and limits the social potential for magicker characters. Why is there such a strong push to maintain this, in spite of it being difficult to maintain amongst the player base as many of these magicker characters strive for employment, tolerance, peace, and social acceptance? Why can't we fear the character instead of the class? Making the classes with the highest potential for coded power the one with the least propensity for cooperative, peaceful, and positive social interaction only seems like it will achieve more threads like this.
Perhaps going more indepth into why mundanes would consider those with supernatural powers to be something to fear/revile/resent/hate would help? It can be bad when players have their characters 'fear' magickers because the docs tell them to without understanding why their character would. I think that kind of thing can lead to players acting out that fear in a slightly excessive manner (or not at all) frustratating both themselves and the magicker.
Personally I do prefer settings in which supernatural powers are considered "scary" because it just makes sense to me, and seems much more realistic. If group A has access to more power than group B due to entirely arbitrary reasons then it makes sense that mistrust and resentment will breed. Fear and hatred come later, for me it starts with mistrust and resentment.
If one person has more power than another then there are going to be trust issues. Its natural. The person without power is taking more of a risk if they choose to trust the person with power than the person with power is. So the mundane is going to be wary of trusting the magicker, constantly on guard for betrayal, and prone to overreacting to betrayals (real and perceived) if not outright acting preemptively if they feel they can no longer trust the magicker. The mundane is in a state of constant suspicion, which may manifest as fear, which may manifest in a variety of ways from hatred to grovelling servitude.
Could you enjoy drinking at the bar with the local crime boss every week? Sure. Would you ever forget that they _are_ the local crime boss? Not likely. Likewise I feel a small amount of fear when I see the police driving next to me. Not becuase I am doing something wrong, but becuase I fear that they might think otherwise becuase I'm in a situation where I have to trust someone else who has more power than me. Its uncomfortable.
The second thing is resentment. I don't know about anyone else but if my best friend suddenly got cool super powers... I'd feel some resentment that I didn't get them too, or to be brutally honest: That they got them instead of me. Overtime that resentment might build up into bitterness and hatred as my old friend outshines my achievements and makes my every effort surplus to requirements. Now if its some choadheaded asswipe that got super powers you better beleive I'd be resentful and bitter at the universe for not having gotten them myself. The outlet for that hatred? Well the only reasonable target is the person with the powers.
The magicker is likely to weary of the constant mistrust and resentment received from mundanes and treat them with disdain and contempt, which only fuels the fires of the mundanes mistrust and resentment.
To sum up, while I think LoD is right that Magickers could be better integrated into the PC population I would find it hard to relate to a situation in which the majority of the populace doesn't mistrust and resent them. My suggestion is for players to focus more on how their character deals with the mistrust and resentment rather that trying to force themselves to play unreasoned fear and hatred.
As an aside, I've always like the idea of rituals and what not that required the caster to have assitants to perform. Would increase the degree of interaction, interesting too if some of them required a drain of the assistants health, stun, or stam. Then of course there is the seks magicks with the orgy rituals... Never warmed to the idea of Elementalists tho so I wouldn't miss them, its just a personal dislike tho that is not Armageddon specific.
There are IC reasons why the Elementalists' Quarter is the way it is, and no one has put a bar or anything of the sort in there.
Also, there is a sort of "meeting place" in the Quarter, with things for sale and entertainment. Yet there always seems to be someone complaining that there isn't.
Quote from: Niamh on March 19, 2010, 09:04:07 AM
There are IC reasons why the Elementalists' Quarter is the way it is, and no one has put a bar or anything of the sort in there.
Also, there is a sort of "meeting place" in the Quarter, with things for sale and entertainment. Yet there always seems to be someone complaining that there isn't.
Give the food seller a booze item. :D
Quote from: FantasyWriter on March 19, 2010, 10:12:30 AM
Quote from: Niamh on March 19, 2010, 09:04:07 AM
There are IC reasons why the Elementalists' Quarter is the way it is, and no one has put a bar or anything of the sort in there.
Also, there is a sort of "meeting place" in the Quarter, with things for sale and entertainment. Yet there always seems to be someone complaining that there isn't.
Give the food seller a booze item. :D
Flag part of the area as "indoors" so said gemmers can hang out there for longer periods :P
Needs more tables, too.
Think about this: The gemmmed quarter's been around since before all these catastrophes. Everyone hates/fears the gemmed. Already, there's people rioting around outside the quarter and plenty of people starving to death in the city. Can anyone see how these angry mobs would react if the templarate and/or nobility came in and put a fucking TAVERN up in the elementalists quarter while the 'real' citizens were starving? I can see a lot more things being destroyed out of a show of anger, and a lot more angry people joining up with that mob. And that's just with the tavern....
Now picture what the response would be if the outpost came to fruition? I don't see ANYONE in power in the city wanting to deal with the obvious wave of shit that that would cause.
edit to add:
Plus, add to that the fact that gemmed 'is' an isolated role. So them being forced to integrate with normal citizens when they want to sit at the bar and having a drink works from an OOC playability standpoint as well as the obvious IC reasons why they wouldn't have a tavern of their own.
Quote from: Niamh on March 19, 2010, 09:04:07 AM
There are IC reasons why the Elementalists' Quarter is the way it is, and no one has put a bar or anything of the sort in there.
Also, there is a sort of "meeting place" in the Quarter, with things for sale and entertainment. Yet there always seems to be someone complaining that there isn't.
My gemmers never found this place and never knew it existed. I think that's an issue, yes. It should be more prominent.
My -non-gemmers from Allanak know about it. It's one of the neatest public spots in the city and in fact it's one of the reasons my southern-born characters have at least a begrudging tolerance for gemmers. I always make sure to give any southern-born characters I create, a built-in reason to at least visit the place on occasion. Their reaction would depend on the character's personality but I just love going there to soak in the atmosphere.
Quote from: Fool on March 19, 2010, 02:09:13 AM
The second thing is resentment. I don't know about anyone else but if my best friend suddenly got cool super powers... I'd feel some resentment that I didn't get them too, or to be brutally honest: That they got them instead of me.
The rest of your post made sense..... Except for this paragraph.
The average Zalanthan commoner doesn't look at them as "super cool powers", they look at them as world-destroying abominations.
hyzenhock, first thing's first. Last time you RP'd being afraid you were treated like a moron? Bullshit. Your CHARACTER was treated like a moron by people that were ignoring the documentation, not to mention the reality of things (because I and everyone else isn't kidding when we say a magicker is powerful). If you had the stones, you could have reinforced the documentation for everyone instead of bitching about it now on the GDB.
Second, hyzen, did you even read anyone else's post when you suggested this last time? (By the way, the new suggestion was for them to leak curses everywhere they go, and you hijacked it with your own idea, so don't get surprised when people think you're talking about the new idea, not the echo idea you had.) Not to mention, also, that what you're looking for, we already have in the form of rioters all over Allanak, so I think your argument is silly. You want scripts attached to the gem to follow everyone around everywhere they go? That's ridiculous. I can't see this script actually doing anything realistically, since it would have to target NPCs around the gemmer and how could it make
that work without it commonly doing ridiculous things by nature of what NPCs it targets?
Third, number13, I still think you don't get it. A MAGICKER CAN BLAST YOU INTO YOUR COMPONENT PARTS WITH ONE SPELL! They are all Chuck Norris, wrapped in dynamite, doped up on PCP and they've got a bazooka in each hand. The only reason those people can protest outside the Elementalists' Quarter is because there's better than a score of them... safety in numbers. You do not have safety in numbers as a PC in the same way unless you get like 20 PCs together. VNPCs and NPCs don't count, because they're the kinda people that are just going to get out of the way and not help you. The magicker him/herself may be the friendliest, loviest hippy that Arm could put out, and that isn't a comment on their roleplay. When your character isn't still scared, it is a comment on YOUR roleplay.
Quote from: jhunter on March 19, 2010, 01:52:50 AMYou are totally right. There was an attempt at a reincarnation of such which was also destroyed.
By PCs, not the staff.
Quote from: Fool on March 19, 2010, 02:09:13 AM
To sum up, while I think LoD is right that Magickers could be better integrated into the PC population I would find it hard to relate to a situation in which the majority of the populace doesn't mistrust and resent them. My suggestion is for players to focus more on how their character deals with the mistrust and resentment rather that trying to force themselves to play unreasoned fear and hatred.
One of the largest barriers toward making integration work in the current game is the artificial efforts made to keep mundanes and magickers separated. The documentation comes across as very, "Magickers on this side. Mundanes on the other side." I'd much rather see an environment where mundanes could
choose to be on either side without strong OOC prejudice from either their peers or the Staff.
What if there was an additional social layer in the game for mundanes that willingly choose to aid, consort with, and befriend magickers in a similar way to Vampire familiars. I don't mean to imply that they would be strange, blood-sucking servants, but more that they would be associated and viewed by the populace with the same levels of mistrust, disdain, and prejudice. This would allow those mundane players that
want to interact peacefully with magickers to do so, without feeling like they are ignoring the documentation or role-playing inappropriately.
There may even be names that develop from such relationships that mean "allies of the damned" and, perhaps, even some kind of side-effects that may inflict mundanes that have consistent exposure to magick. Similar to people that have spent a lot of time tracking through a swamp, sewer, or other area teeming with parasites, diseases, and inflictions, someone who spends the bulk of their time around elemental magick may not be well-suited to resist some of its unsavory side-effects. Longer term supporters might develop visible signs or conditions, hinting at their involvement. Signs that some mundane characters may work to disguise, as they may not want their involvement to be obvious.
I think this would open up more RP opportunities between magickers and mundanes and potentially even add a new social layer that wasn't there before which would
help ICly define and support the general reaction to magick. Instead of magickers vs. mundane, it's more like magick-supporters vs. non-magick-supporters, which I think is a much broader and playable category into which to funnel the citizens of Allanak.
-LoD
Quote from: spawnloser on March 19, 2010, 12:27:10 PM
Third, number13, I still think you don't get it. A MAGICKER CAN BLAST YOU INTO YOUR COMPONENT PARTS WITH ONE SPELL! They are all Chuck Norris, wrapped in dynamite, doped up on PCP and they've got a bazooka in each hand. The only reason those people can protest outside the Elementalists' Quarter is because there's better than a score of them... safety in numbers. You do not have safety in numbers as a PC in the same way unless you get like 20 PCs together. VNPCs and NPCs don't count, because they're the kinda people that are just going to get out of the way and not help you. The magicker him/herself may be the friendliest, loviest hippy that Arm could put out, and that isn't a comment on their roleplay. When your character isn't still scared, it is a comment on YOUR roleplay.
Best post in the thread yet.
Magickers aren't beholden to be baby eating monsters. Magickers are regular people, cursed or blessed, depending on your perspective, with a connection to their element. It has little to do with their actual personality. The baby-eating soul-flaying pyscho of doom stuff is based on the perspective of the mundane population.
And according to the magicker documentation (http://www.armageddon.org/rp/magick/magickculture.html):
A thought to keep in mind when working with elementalists is that
they're not priests. Or philosophers. Or druids. Or seers. Or Wizards. They do not get their powers by prayer, worship, communing with a greater power, or studying ancient texts.
Many of them make no effort whatsoever to nurture their power and never sought it out to begin with. They were born this way and that's that. Some elementalists doubtless view their powers as a curse, but have taken up the life of an elementalist because there's no escaping what they are.
Despite their powers elementalists are mortal, and have the same motivations as others of their race. A dwarven Whiran has a focus like any other dwarf, a Suk-Krathi elf is still sly, and a gypsy Vivaduan still tries to steal babies when she thinks no one is looking.
These things don't change just because they can use magick. There is no philosophical bent that comes along with, or is a requirement of, having access to the elemental planes.A Whiran may have no greater aspiration than to get drunk as often as possible, and only keeps up attendance at his temple because it gives him a community to rely on when times are hard.
There are slackers, moochers, and freeloaders in every society, even one made up of elementalists, and they rarely stick around when times get hard.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Emphasis mine.
So yeah, as long as your magicker is taking the npc/vnpc world into account in their roleplay, there's essentially not any other requirement for how they're played. They're not 'doing it wrong' if they're not ACTUALLY the soul-eating monsters your pcs perceive them to be. That's your pcs own inaccurate perception. And anyone who gives you crap about that is 'doing it wrong', because that's how your pc OUGHT to see them. Hippie or no.
QuoteThe only reason those people can protest outside the Elementalists' Quarter is because there's better than a score of them... safety in numbers. You do not have safety in numbers as a PC in the same way unless you get like 20 PCs together. VNPCs and NPCs don't count, because they're the kinda people that are just going to get out of the way and not help you.
Convenient. In current climate
Vampires magickers will always out-gun mundane commoners. Even if every last single mundane southern commoner there is got together, there'd be like 0 to 5 off-peak. Probably less than 20 even at peak. You are expecting way too much from a player base that is a) small b) too spread out.
You're ignoring the fact that the fear of magickers is supposed to be a bad thing for magickers, not a automatic ticket to pwns-ville. And fear can be expressed in many different ways, foolhardy swagger being one of them, and probably not atypical reaction for a culture where Might Equals Right -- like Allanak. In short, YOU ARE (probably) NOT PLAYING A TEMPLAR. Sorry, I want to play a templar too. Everyone does, but most aren't, and that's just how is. You don't get the good kind of fear as a magicker. You get the "that guy is creepy, I don't want to be his friend," or "that guy is dangerous, let's take him out," variety of fear.
PCs represent their population, their demographic. If a mundane PC wants to join in on the riots, he has to deal with being singled out for scorn by gicker PCs, yes, but you can't say it's not ICly justified. Staff set up an NPC crowd, and an degenerating social situation. PCs should be able to take cues from that choice.
Related note, the shift of Allanak's PC population being heavily gemmed is terrible for bringing new players into the game. Next time you log into Allanak during off-peak hours, pretend you are a new player. You've just popped into the Gaj. If I were a new player, I'd see be logging off for good shortly thereafter. (I did exactly that, the first time I logged into Arm, way back in the late 90s.) Yes, I know it comes and goes in cycles, but right now is a miserable time for a new player to point at Allanak when choosing a native city.
QuoteWhen your character isn't still scared, it is a comment on YOUR roleplay.
I guess that's why you have more karma than me, spawnloser. I'm the MUD's worst roleplayer.
I've interacted with a couple PCs that I knew for a fact belonged to you, and mostly enjoyed it. I don't recall specifically, and it's hard to tell because I don't go looking for OOC information or participate in the IM/IRC scene, but it's possible that I've sent you a kudo -- a character I suspected belonged to you anyway. So I know you aren't the MUD's worst roleplayer.
And yet...
All this "I can roast your guy 15 different ways, no savings throw" sounds really twinkish. I might be costing myself some brownie points by calling it out, but fuck it. It's sitting right there. Is the appeal of magickers that you can kill noobs, and they are supposed to RP being scared of you? That's pretty much the opposite of what I personally expect out of players running a karma role. I doubt you are seeing yourself in that light, and you are probably responsible and engaged with attempting to make the entire experience fun for everyone in-game, but they way your messages are reading... It's giving me an unfavorable impression.
First. Let's all take a second to breath. And calm down.
Honestly, though. That last post Spawnloser posted was spot on... the last paragraph anyhow. And you usually wouldn't find me saying things like that about his posts.
Anyhow... The fear of magickers isn't -just- "that guy is creepy" or "let's take him out" The fear of magickers spawns from ignorance. The people of allanak don't know what the magickers are capable of. That vividuan... most people don't know what a vividuan is. Most people don't give the time of day to learn anything about magickers. That vividuan, most people think has the power to snap your neck from a distance... or shoot you with mind arrows... or make you hold your breath 'till you die. Not only what they can do. Or how many times they can do it. The fear of magickers comes from people expecting the worst. -and- when a magicker does happen to become your friend, he might be controlling your mind with his magick. Earned your trust? Please... it -must- be a trick. To a commoner, gemmed have the ability to do anything.
What spawnloser probably tried to get across was, hate is good. But deep down... people should be scared of the person who could make them explode with a snap of their fingers.
Quote from: Niamh on March 19, 2010, 09:04:07 AM
There are IC reasons why the Elementalists' Quarter is the way it is, and no one has put a bar or anything of the sort in there.
Also, there is a sort of "meeting place" in the Quarter, with things for sale and entertainment. Yet there always seems to be someone complaining that there isn't.
There are reasons too that the sort of "meeting place" is rarely used.
1. No message board.
2. No drinks.
3. Food, such as it is, is in a different room.
4. A single table.
So hardly a tavern at all.
But these all pale in comparison to the main reason: to put it bluntly,
the location SUCKS.
Put it one room north of the Vivaduan temple and it could work. Gemmed
PCs are pretty thin on the ground, but they do all tend to move past
there and so could look in. If one sat there, it wouldn't be long
before another passed by and could join in.
Proof is how the Vivaduan temple used to work. Before the changes
upstairs, which drew the Vivaduans out of their temple proper, and
before the pool and messages were changed to indicate an uncomfortable
and undesirable environment, impromptu gatherings of the gemmed
happened all of the time.
Another thing that would help would be to encourage mages to at least
spend time in their lobbies. Every temple has an interior room for
best "contemplation". When a gemmed PC walks around, the temples are
always looking empty from outside.
I think there will always be players (and thus characters) that want to be friendly with magickers for no other reason than that they're cool, and you can get special benefits, when the code doesn't prevent it otherwise.
Take spice IG for example. There's benefits. There's also disadvantages. Why isn't it more prevalently used?
The stigma attached to it in a certain location, the code which lets you know the consequences of taking spice, and the high price that it takes to purchase them.
Magick on the other hand does have a stigma, and benefits, but the harmful consequences of interacting with it is non-existent in the code. Aside from the documentation, there's nothing stopping a character from enjoying the benefits (and the cool-ness of the magick-code) aside from the potential risk to their social status.
Make magick to mundanes like spice. You want to play with it, have it so you understand that constant affiliation around magick will affect your character in not-so-good ways as well. This will also give a dilemma to magickers and their view of their magick.
[edited to add: This isn't a very clear post but hope it'll get the point across, as I wrote it while rushed out the door.]
Quote from: Semper on March 19, 2010, 02:45:33 PM
I think there will always be players (and thus characters) that want to be friendly with magickers for no other reason than that they're cool, and you can get special benefits, when the code doesn't prevent it otherwise.
Take spice IG for example. There's benefits. There's also disadvantages. Why isn't it more prevalently used?
The stigma attached to it in a certain location, the code which lets you know the consequences of taking spice, and the high price that it takes to purchase them.
Magick on the other hand does have a stigma, and benefits, but the harmful consequences of interacting with it is non-existent in the code. Aside from the documentation, there's nothing stopping a character from enjoying the benefits (and the cool-ness of the magick-code) aside from the potential risk to their social status.
Make magick to mundanes like spice. You want to play with it, have it so you understand that constant affiliation around magick will affect your character in not-so-good ways as well. This will also give a dilemma to magickers and their view of their magick.
[edited to add: This isn't a very clear post but hope it'll get the point across, as I wrote it while rushed out the door.]
Sort of some sort of magickal addiction for any mundane that ends up around them while they're casting, too often? I could dig that.
Quote from: Pale Horse on March 19, 2010, 02:49:48 PM
Sort of some sort of magickal addiction for any mundane that ends up around them while they're casting, too often? I could dig that.
I'm for this as long as its just buffs and such. You shouldn't become addicted to magick merely by its presence or all of Allanak would be addicted by now.
QuoteYou're ignoring the fact that the fear of magickers is supposed to be a bad thing for magickers, not a automatic ticket to pwns-ville.
You're just plain wrong there. The fear -can- be a negative thing -or- a positive thing for the magickers. You are skewing it to fit your personal view of how it should be. Not how it -is-. You are refusing to use it -because- of the fact that it isn't always to your mundane pc's advantage. Nowhere in the documentation is it stated that the fear of magick is only supposed to work one way, against the magicker. Not to mention, if it were the case, that would be extremely unrealistic. True fear is usually a weakness to exploit. It sounds more and more to me like you refuse to do it because it won't help you "win".
Quote from: jhunter on March 19, 2010, 04:44:31 PM
You are skewing it to fit your personal view of how it should be. Not how it -is-. You are refusing to use it -because- of the fact that it isn't always to your mundane pc's advantage.
Welp, that's 100% true. I'm viewing social perception of magickers as class balance, the trade off for having faster progression and in some ways better potential than mundane PCs. If LoD's right, it's actually that the social perception of magickers resulted in their progression being amped up.
If I'm wrong, then I'm looking at the problem from the incorrect point of view. I should instead just say that it's a terrible idea to allow the majority of the active player base to start off with characters that are flat-out better than those available to new players, and essentially leave a significant portion of our small pool of vets unable to form groups and positive relationships with new players.
I prefer magickers to be very rare, but failing that they should be nerfed (or better yet, mundanes' progression buffed x2 or x3) and then allowed to mix more freely with mundanes in Allanak. Small p.base needs a excuses to interact with each other, not excuses to not interact with each other.
Meanwhile, playing out Snotty the Human Kickball isn't fun, and isn't desirable unless it's explicitly the role you've signed on for. You can't remove magickers' barely extant disadvantage without either dramatic reduction in numbers or dramatic reduction is power potential differences, or you can kiss the idea of mundane Allanak good-bye and make it a city of PC wizards. (I should say, keep it the city of PC wizards.) In which case, for the sake of new players, I'd remove Allanak as a start option for anyone with less than 2 karma.
Overexaggeration isn't really a great way to foster correct perceptions by those reading these boards who might be new.
I simply wanted to say that the classes are not balanced. My understanding is that is intended. The problem with trying to figure out if this or that is balanced, or how it is balanced, is that it really isn't in our perview. We can make suggestions, provide evidence (I once contributed to getting a spell yanked from PC spelltrees), and in general talk ourselves silly, based on our perceptions of balance, but at the end of the day it is the sole responsibility of those running the game. Their perceptions can be drastically different than we think them to be.
Our responsibility is having fun.
And chopping up motherfuckas gemmers with bone swords.
number13, I think you're ignoring the fact that someone being scared of a magicker isn't a good thing. If I was playing a magicker and wanted a friend, but everyone was as scared of me as someone in the Dark Ages was scared of a leper, do you think my magicker would be happy? Do you think it would be a good thing? What if people were too scared to do business with me because they think that being too close to me will curse them? How is being universally feared a good thing? Sure, fewer people will try to pick a bar fight, but even some of the prostitutes won't take my magicker's money. Good thing still?
Still, all just a strawman, as pointed out. This has nothing to do with the roleplay of the players of gemmers, but the roleplay of those playing the mundanes around those gemmers. Gemmers are people. Mundanes are people that fear magickers. Gemmers are magickers. Do the freaking math. You don't have to polish their knob and tip them when you're scared of them. Come on, man.
You want to see try hatred of your gemmer PCs... try playing a non human.
It helps, trust me. :D
Quote from: spawnloser on March 19, 2010, 07:18:09 PM
Gemmers are people. Mundanes are people that fear magickers. Gemmers are magickers. Do the freaking math. You don't have to polish their knob and tip them when you're scared of them. Come on, man.
Funny how the karma-ed class ends up being the one without restrictions on it's roleplay. Magickers are free to be people. Mundanes are free to be people -- who fear magickers.
Yeah, this isn't going anywhere. Same time, same place next year?
Really? That's bull-shit. Gemmers (and all magickers, for that matter) have restrictions on their roleplay as well, as they are expected to also play realistic characters as well. There are a myriad of possibilities, and not all of them have to be bad guys. Not to mention that magickers probably shouldn't be any less scared around other magickers as mundanes should be, to be honest.
Let's all take another breath...
To be honest. No one should be afraid of magickers. Because they have just as many weaknesses if not more then anyone else. (unless they're smart) - Like I said before, the reason commoners fear magickers is ignorance.
Number13. I think you might just have a problem with Spawnloser. Calm down, please. You're trying to take everything Spawn says and turn it around somehow. Try having a discussion instead.
Hah, I remember being a gemmer one time long ago, and this person played out his fear and hatred of this other gemmer quite well. When he finally looked at me and realized I was also a gemmer, he said something like "Oh, well guess you aren't afraid of him." My response was something around, "Oh no, I'm far more afraid of him than you are. You only can guess at what he can do. I know."
Quote from: Twilight on March 19, 2010, 07:57:19 PM
Hah, I remember being a gemmer one time long ago, and this person played out his fear and hatred of this other gemmer quite well. When he finally looked at me and realized I was also a gemmer, he said something like "Oh, well guess you aren't afraid of him." My response was something around, "Oh no, I'm far more afraid of him than you are. You only can guess at what he can do. I know."
Ahahah. That's awesome.
Quote from: Twilight on March 19, 2010, 07:57:19 PM"Oh no, I'm far more afraid of him than you are. You only can guess at what he can do. I know."
Perfect. ;D
Somebody should search out the quote from a few years back that was like that but from a player perspective.
Went something like, New players don't know enough to fear mages, middle players know enough to get killed by them and old players know why they are to be feared....or something like that.
My mages fear little cept other mages. And for good reason.
As to Number13 wanting mages nerfed or mundanes buffed (means the same thing.
Way way back in the day, call it from the start of arm. Mages were VERY buff, 4 types (before sorcs) each type had a far deeper spell tree then they do now and more skills. They could wield and cast and do many other scary things. Overthe course of the 90s, mages were constantly nerfed. First the ability to wield and cast, then the really powerful high level spells went, Then they added 3 new mage types, (This was the biggest nerf) When they added the new mages, all the old mages lost about 1/3 of the spell trees they had and those spells got spread over the rest of the mages along with a few...very few, new spells.
By year 2000, Mages were so nerfed that NOBODY was afraid of them, It was nearly impossible to get a mage to a point of real power because EVERY Mundane class including merchant was FAR more powerful out of the box then ANY mage class was at 20 days played.
And every player knew it. So, we had to put up with about 4 years of people complaining that mages were not scary, they had no power, etc etc etc.
Finally Halaster takes on the challenge. He fixed a bunch of broken spells and put them back in the game, He added new spells, He improved old spells, He made it a little easier for a mage to advance in the beginning.
Finally, when he was done, Mages had teeth, they were not (IMO) over powered, but capable of being scary.
I thought it was perfect to be honest. Since then mages have been getting steadily nerfed...again...people are complaining they are too powerful...again.
Heh....I hope arm1 ends before the cycle repeats to be honest.
Quote from: spawnloser on March 19, 2010, 07:18:09 PM
number13, I think you're ignoring the fact that someone being scared of a magicker isn't a good thing. If I was playing a magicker and wanted a friend, but everyone was as scared of me as someone in the Dark Ages was scared of a leper, do you think my magicker would be happy? Do you think it would be a good thing? What if people were too scared to do business with me because they think that being too close to me will curse them? How is being universally feared a good thing? Sure, fewer people will try to pick a bar fight, but even some of the prostitutes won't take my magicker's money. Good thing still?
That's almost like saying, "What if I was playing a mul, and I wanted a friend, but everyone was secretly trying to gain my trust and send my ass back to Borsail for a hefty price..... Do you think my mul would be happy?"
Honestly, both the Staff and the docs have remained firm, Magickers are supposed to be universally hated and feared by just about everyone.
And there are several solutions to this.
- Don't make a magicker.
- Make a tribal magicker whose tribe generally accepts certain magickers.
- Make an uber in-the-closet magicker.
I'm sure there are plenty more.....
It's not about keeping anybody happy, it's simple. If you don't like being hated/feared, than a magicker is not the role for you.
I'll use myself as an example here:
"I don't like having my characters labeled "thief" upon entering a room, therefor I don't play elves."
"I don't like being forced to pursue a single goal throughout my character's life, therefor I don't play dwarves."
"I don't like being isolated from the near-entirety of the playerbase, therefor I've never apped to play a halfling."
"I don't like having to play a slow-witted character, so I don't play half-giants."
"I don't like risking getting gutted by a random PC or NPC in the next hour, so I don't start characters in 'Rinth."
See where this is going?
"I don't like being hated and persecuted by most everybody therefor I don't play magickers."
It really shouldn't need to be spelled out any further to the playerbase than that.
Qzzzzzzzzzzrbl, you're making the mistake that hyzenhock and number13 are making (most specific instance the , "noone likes getting pwned, so that's why people hate magickers instead of fear them" statement from a while back). When I say, "is a magicker going to be happy?" I am NOT talking about the player. I can be relatively certain that not one person playing this game is a magicker. I am talking about the character. When I am playing a magicker, I expect people to be scared of my character and treat my character like a pariah no matter what my character does. I can be happy playing a pariah. My character won't be happy being a pariah. There is a difference.
Quote from: spawnloser on March 19, 2010, 09:34:39 PM
Qzzzzzzzzzzrbl, you're making the mistake that hyzenhock and number13 are making (most specific instance the , "noone likes getting pwned, so that's why people hate magickers instead of fear them" statement from a while back). When I say, "is a magicker going to be happy?" I am NOT talking about the player. I can be relatively certain that not one person playing this game is a magicker. I am talking about the character. When I am playing a magicker, I expect people to be scared of my character and treat my character like a pariah no matter what my character does. I can be happy playing a pariah. My character won't be happy being a pariah. There is a difference.
The "It's not about keeping anybody happy" encompassed characters too.... I think. >_>
::Edited to add::
Magicker (characters) aren't supposed to be happy anyhow.... They're abominations.
Just as elves aren't supposed to be openly and genuinely trustworthy to everyone they meet.
Comes with the territory. o:
Let's not forget they can be.
All this talk could go around in circles for days, but what it boils down to is one question: "Is it fun?"
My definition of fun is something that promotes conflict AND interaction.
Spanking the playerbase for wanting to interact with each other is only going to cause unhappiness. Find ways to promote grey areas of conflict without segregating everyone into tiny cliques of bored, frustrated harshness.
*plink plink*
Doesn't matter, Q, because they're still going to seek happiness.
Quote from: spawnloser on March 19, 2010, 10:18:09 PM
Doesn't matter, Q, because they're still going to seek happiness.
Well, let's just hope they don't seek it exclusively from the mundane masses that hate/fear them.... Kind of a lost cause.
"But Qzzrbl! That's not how it goes! Why, I had several magickers find happiness with mundane characters."
Whatever, staff and dox sez, and have been saying since I joined this community a few years back:
Quote from: Niamh on March 16, 2010, 08:40:17 AM
Magick is hated and feared, period, regardless of who they are, or who they work for. Anyone who is friends with or sleeps with or nice to or defends a magicker should fully expect to be just as hated and feared for it, regardless of who they are or, or who they work for. This is the norm of society.
So that's the doctrine I'll continue following.
As was mentioned, the discussion is just going around in circles now. It's completed it's purpose.
Ghost! Lock the thread.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on March 19, 2010, 10:41:31 PMWell, let's just hope they don't seek it exclusively from the mundane masses that hate/fear them.... Kind of a lost cause.
Actually, they could try, but the player of the magicker should know that it should be difficult.
Quote from: Pale Horse on March 19, 2010, 11:00:21 PM
As was mentioned, the discussion is just going around in circles now. It's completed it's purpose.
Ghost! Lock the thread.
What was accomplished? A staff asked us what would make magickers more feared and hatred and some of the ideas are now deeply buried within the bitchfest.
Ya know... I think gickers... just for the hell of it, should...
>emote glares at ~mundane
>emote utters an incantation
that might do it.
It would be too much, I think to emote things happening afterward since... a guard or something would mess you up. Or... would it? ("it" being the emote)
Quote from: Chettaman on March 20, 2010, 12:16:47 AM
Ya know... I think gickers... just for the hell of it, should...
>emote glares at ~mundane
>emote utters an incantation
If you
emote coded messages, especially anything related to magick, nessalin will sacrifice a kitten ON YOUR GRAVE.
It's almost never correct to feign something that is coded without actually doing the coded thing.
How to Handle Magickers 101:
Why are magickers hated?Quote from: Magicker FAQ
Magickers are hated and feared by the populace. This is a fact of life on Zalanthas. In New Tuluk, a city once decimated by elementals, magick is forbidden. The general populace does not know what a magicker is and isn't capable of, and assumes the worst. Magickers are blamed for disease, bad luck, and any other negative occurence.
That's from the documentation. Just as elves can't ride because of the documentation, magickers are suppose to be hated and feared. What are some reasons why a player might struggle with this part of the documentation but not others (e.g. elves can't ride)?
1) It's a lot more difficult to enforce properly. If an elf is caught riding a mount, the stance against it is unmistakable. Not only will you likely face the dire consequences for it IG, but OOC, you'll probably have a word from staff. The same goes for Noble/Commoner sexual relationships in Tuluk. This -never- happens because it's enforced to the T. Not only will an offending Noble and Commoner be harassed and ridiculed IG, you'll probably see a similar situation from the staff and the Noble will probably be stored. But for magicker/commoner relationships (even non-sexual)? There's never been a real cut-off barring players from taking that route (as far as I can recall). It happens IG because there is room for it to happen in the documentations.
Let's say the "no elves riding" part of the documentation was relaxed a bit more. I'm sure we'd see more elves who (for some exceptional reason or another) decided they -had- to ride. You would have to put up with the ridicule, sure, but that only makes it more enjoyable to play for some players. What about the "no Noble/Commoner sexual relationships" rule being relaxed a bit? We'll for certain see Tuluki Nobles/Commoners going for that "secret" relationship on occasion. Why? Because it heightens the enjoyment of the game for the players involved. It's the same reason why you might steal cookies from the cookie jar.
2) The code does not dissuade you from taking that course. I've brought this up before, but spice has both its benefits and harms. Although I think it would do the game better to see more spice-addicts, honestly, the code makes it less appealing to players to play a spice-addict because the disadvantages (from cost and the harmful effects of being addicted) outweigh the advantages (being able to play an addict and the small (almost minuscule) coded benefits.
Certain mundane classes can become almost unstoppable with the right spells on them. To a player (and even characters) most like 'winning', and if you're able to get that with only having to face a bit of trouble from other characters who you can likely kill/threaten/scare away because of your new-found 'powers' and special allies, I think it's quite a tempting offer for most.
Not even on the coded level, if you're talking strictly relation-ship wise, we've all probably enjoyed watching or reading stories about the 'forbidden love'. It's a concept we probably could find some enjoyment playing and the documentation leaves room open for such relationships to happen. And if others have a problem with it? You can have your character join Oash and be protected, or have your magicker lover scare them off, or any number of other possibilities to your advantage.
3) Players don't like having options limited. This is more a OOC reason why nothing much has been done about this problem for so long. When there's a push to actually hate and fear magickers IG, magicker players don't like it because their interaction becomes limited. Those playing the haters don't like it because those players playing magickers complain about it. So it goes in circles like we can see just by reading a few posts back on this thread... I don't know if this really happened or not, but when the staff stance against Tuluki Noble/Commoner sexual relations went in, players complained about it. We didn't see much else come about because it only affected only a handful of players and also due to the clear staff position on it, but with magicker/mundane topics, it affects a large portion of the players. Until staff starts taking a rigid stance on it (unfortunately) this cycle will probably continue.
Conclusion:
I'm looking at this whole issue from a more player's perspective than the character's. We play our characters from what we know as players. A player who is clueless about combat in Armageddon, for example, can't play a character who is an expert on combat. We go through this whole debate now and then because we as players can't really come to a consensus on where to draw the line on certain things, how far to take certain situations, etc. With more clearer boundaries between magickers and mundanes (which the players can agree to, or at the very least know), backed up by both the code and by staff, I think we'll have a chance at better reflecting the documents in the game.
Now, there's still other aspects to this whole debate that I've left out. The three reasons that I've mentioned here only reflect what I perceive as to why players have a trouble hating/fearing magickers like the documentation says.
Quote from: Myrdryn on March 18, 2010, 03:03:57 AM
What would make players roleplay being more afraid of magickers?
From the...5th page on this thread... I've given up looking for line of reasoning for much of this thread... let's try and keep this on topic?
[edited to add]
I think another thing we could address (or has been addressed, I just can't find where it was addressed) is how to make it enjoyable for players playing gemmed PCs, considering that the documentation is followed correctly by everyone? We may need a new thread for that though.
Quote from: Myrdryn on March 18, 2010, 03:03:57 AM
What would make players roleplay being more afraid of magickers?
I think you'd be looking at coded additions to mix things up and make interactions both fresh and unpredictable. When propriety is expected only through roleplay, there are always work-arounds, like "but this mundane is soooo sexy!" or "but this gemmer saved my life!" or what have you. The documentation should be supported heavily through code, basically.
A special curse spell that every elementalist starts with, though its effects would vary by element. Its purpose would be to give magickers the ability to add negative effects and echoes to other PCs. It wouldn't be castable at nil, it would not invoke the crim-code on anyone and it wouldn't show any echo to anyone when cast. It would just be placeable on anyone the elementalist interacts with. Of course the elementalist could just go on and never cast that thing, and someone mentioned placing curses on people the elementalist emotes with at random - I think that is an interesting idea too, although if you ever emote in the negative (e.g., "emote ignores ~amos") the curse might attach anyway. I don't think that is a big problem though. If these stories of curses are meant to be "all in the head" and not real curses, then the echoes can be designed in that way, e.g. "You feel like you can't hear as well as you could before." "It seems your armpits are sweatier than usual." and so on. Make interacting with magickal items, objects, and fluids have the same risk of being around an elementalist as described. It would be easy to ignore the messages and effects, sure, but we're all big roleplayers and we can handle it.
Beneficial spells should have a negative after-effect if they are cast on someone not of the same element. For mundanes, this would be every element. Say a Vivaduan heals a Rukkian, or a mundane. After a few IG hours the game could echo something negative, or codedly do something negative. A low healing skill might end up echoing, "Your old wounds begin to open again." and you lose, say, 10 HP. A higher healing skill might echo "You feel as if your old wounds are going to burst." but nothing happens other than that. The latter would be more like coming down from spice; the former is almost harmless but enough to give the person a slap on the wrist and a reminder they used an abomination to stay alive.
Edit to add: On second thought I don't really like things clashing with other elements, or curses at random, because eventually it will get "old" and "predictable" and could also serve to pull mundanes and magickers apart even further when those clashes between them should still be visible. I do like the idea of magickal items still having an effect though. I would like to see opinions on coded effects on magickers and mundanes though.I can see why these ideas might suck and I see their potential flaws, but I'll steadfastly hold the position that coded changes are the way to do things.
There are two "indoor" rooms in this meeting place for gemmed. No, there is no message board, because there is no need for one. ICly, gemmed are lucky to have what they have in Allanak. It's a lot more than anyone else would give them. The other alternative is going rogue and not knowing for sure if you will ever have a safe place to go, much less a roof over your head and the chance to safely interact with others like you, or legally make a living doing all the dirty things a magicker does. This is the closest to a safe haven that your average magicker will ever have, because of the attitude of the entire world towards magick. Not only are magickers free to practice magicks openly and in peace in the designated areas within the Quarter, but they also have the law on their side to protect them if someone tries to screw with them. Some people do not seem to realize just how big a deal this is.
Perhaps playing a gemmer would be more enjoyable if the focus was on what good things they do have going for them in the Quarter, rather than what everyone else has outside it that the gemmed don't.
Quote from: Niamh on March 20, 2010, 09:44:55 AM
Perhaps playing a gemmer would be more enjoyable if the focus was on what good things they do have going for them in the Quarter, rather than what everyone else has outside it that the gemmed don't.
I couldn't agree more with this particular part of your post if I tried. I think about the only thing I would possibly like to see added/changed in regards to the temple would be to see all temples have a save room. As to a tavern and the like, with my first gemmed, I was definitely up in arms and kind of thought that they should have one. But it's really understandable with the experiences I've had since, why they don't. Personally, I'm kind of glad that staff HASN'T allowed one to be put in. Because there ISN'T an IC reason to put one in, and so much reason not to, and I'd feel a bit like staff was pandering to players rather than being true to the in game world.
As to what could be done to make magickers more scary:
Make their spells not trigger the crim code directly, but instead possibly make any soldiers in line of sight contact the local PC templars and let them know through the Way. Perhaps allow gemmed to wander the city with various effects on them invisible to the naked eye (this would have the dual purpose of keeping gemmed from being 'trapped in their temple' in some instances, and it would also have the additional affect of making at least some people more nervous. Go to a safe, private place? Yeah sure, because you don't see the invisible 'gicker who later on bribes you/reports your doing to their boss/starts fucking with you while you're mutinying privately, etc etc etc). Another idea would be the curse thing, but at the same time, I think this would possibly be difficult to code in a way that's not extremely predictable or somewhat hokey.
I'd like to see some more dealing with element/element dealings, too. Not just magicker/mundane. Like say, with the Mountain of Fire near Allanak, perhaps water elementalists would be a little more misaligned with their element... perhaps they'd be even less looked down on than usual where Nakkis would have a powerful hatred for krathi. Maybe giving gemmed a flag which would activate some sort of set of custom echoes by gemmed guild (like for instance 'You feel uncomfortably hot.' for a krathi, 'The world seems to dim a little as the shadows around you deepen.' for a drovian, and so on.). And this would work more from a playability aspect than simply giving a chance at random echoes on any elementalist of the guild as well. Because as some people would undoubtedly want to point out, some people would want to play rogue mages and it might make it quite difficult. But if you tie it to a universal symbol of being an open, announced, 'official' magicker, it wouldn't ruin anything for those who want to play Jinny the Aide, secret krathi.
Just a couple thoughts.
Niamh: I don't see a reason for gemmed to not have their own message board that's separated from the "city" message board. In fact, I'd see it as much more realistic to the environment because of the way gemmed are supposed to be interacting (or not interacting) with commoners. I thought a message board was supposed to simulate "rumors" spread between the common people traveling a certain location? That's why the rinthi has their own, separate from the southside's.
Quote from: Is Friday on March 30, 2010, 12:59:11 AM
Niamh: I don't see a reason for gemmed to not have their own message board that's separated from the "city" message board. In fact, I'd see it as much more realistic to the environment because of the way gemmed are supposed to be interacting (or not interacting) with commoners. I thought a message board was supposed to simulate "rumors" spread between the common people traveling a certain location? That's why the rinthi has their own, separate from the southside's.
Because the Elementalist Quarter is still a part of Allanak proper, and gemmed mages are still citizens. They aren't a clan or an area unto themselves, secluded away from everyone else. If the Quarter ever did get a board, it would be the same board that the taverns throughout the city have in them.
Note: I got bored after reading up to page 6.. Sorry if I'm repeating stuff from other people.
- How many gemmers are there? Last time I checked off-peak, there were as much as half the mundanes. Why bother going out? I had at least a couple gemmers who felt good enough inside the reclusion of their quarters and I had a lot of fun.
- People hating magickers? Yep.. People being too fearful to attack? Even though since I got my second karma I'm religiously playing several gemmers, I have to decide on something not so advantageous to me, changing my usual standing about this topic. Let me count, from the top of my head, the stupid stuff I read in Turkish newspapers lately: Man told his friend "A true man isn't afraid to be shot." and shot himself on the shoulder. Two teenager girls fought over the attention of a boy, with knives, to death. There was a islamic cult found in a rural area, where the the leader forced his followers to kiss his penis, FOR THE FRIGGING SECOND TIME. (Last similar cult was about 15 years ago. I can't express how much islam is against revealing more than what is to be shown.) To save his bicycle stuck in the tracks, a man got run over by a train. (In the tracks about 100 metres away from my house. The scene was... a Gogh painting..) Man killed another man who told him it is illegal to smoke there. Man killed the policeman who tried to save him from drowning. Fishers who were fined for using an illegal method of fishing protested, stopping traffic. There is a huge group of government clients protesting, because - simply - they want to keep on getting paid for doing nothing in exchange and the media boasts their effort. Boy jumped down the window at the sixth floor to show his affection to his girlfriend. Teenager tortured another teenager with a knife for the account password of one of those multiplayer games....
Do you think people are always clever enough to do what's good for them? http://www.darwinawards.com (http://www.darwinawards.com), go figure. So yes, it is actually very logical to try to bash that immolating, flying, pale skinned individual who's flanked by two demons.
- People harrass your gemmer and you can't do anything about it? Become a tool. Be used by the templerate, offer them loyalty, information, service and honesty. Let the templar punish people for trying to break his tool. Or.. don't be the tool of the templerate. Still go up to a templar and explain, X is harrassing gemmers of the city, you are patient enough to simply ignore him but a couple Suk-Krathis could always visit the same tavern. Beg for forgiveness for bothering the Lord Templar for such a trivial matter and crawl away. You're as much strong as you are useful to the higher-ranking pawns on the table and efficient, clever people prefer Occam's Razor. It's easier to hush a mundane than to tell your higher-ups how that elkran turned everyone in the Gaj to pink ponies or at least have the mess cleaned up.
- Documents are outdated? Ask staff to update them. Mundane folks acting out of the ordinary? If you can't take it IC and act upon it, file a player complaint. A gemmer is acting unrealistically? If you can't take it IC and act upon it, file a player complaint.
You're citing -exceptions- to what is considered the norm and using them to justify illogical actions as logical. Just because Charles Manson did what he did, that does not make it logical or normal for others to do so. Sure, if your pc is deranged or has a death wish or is an exception to the rule then it's proper rp. It doesn't make it proper rp for -most- pcs.
Quote from: jhunter on March 30, 2010, 12:34:15 PM
You're citing -exceptions- to what is considered the norm and using them to justify illogical actions as logical. Just because Charles Manson did what he did, that does not make it logical or normal for others to do so. Sure, if your pc is deranged or has a death wish or is an exception to the rule then it's proper rp. It doesn't make it proper rp for -most- pcs.
You are right. They are exceptions. But it still is a possibility. I have never played a mage with less wisdom than 'extremely good', so my mages would take into account that the dumbass may have a death wish, too.
"You can't attack my character. It is too stupid." "Uh, I just did.". Possible. But you are right, I mastered exaggaration in my last post. Deal with it, my body temperature is currently 38.5 Celcius :)
Regarding gemmers / temple quarter / boards and such:
What if the rinth was extended to include the elementalist quarter? It's so close and already the elementalist quarter is broken down and messy.
This would give unclanned elementalist the dirt/flith they deserve for being cursed plus an interesting place to RP.
Just a late night thought when I should be working...
By the way, if you're a gemmer who wants to really feel hated, allow me to suggest playing a rinthi' gemmer who is incredibly bad at sucking up to southsiders and unrepentant about his/her origins. Good times, good times.
Quote from: Sinna on March 31, 2010, 02:20:54 AM
Regarding gemmers / temple quarter / boards and such:
What if the rinth was extended to include the elementalist quarter? It's so close and already the elementalist quarter is broken down and messy.
This would give unclanned elementalist the dirt/flith they deserve for being cursed plus an interesting place to RP.
Just a late night thought when I should be working...
Please no....
Powerful magickers in 'Rinth usually turn into, "Hey, your entire gang of seven PCs doesn't like magickers, I'm gonna kill them all with my magickyness."
And then 'rinth goes through another five months of nobody playing there except magickers.
Just a newbie question but how would this fit into fearing magickers roleplay?
Quote
Fear is generally not a lever one can employ with dwarves
A dwarf will just calculate the odds that pissing the magicker off will fuck up his plans or similar as a reason not to piss them off.
A dwarf might not panic or shit his pants, but that doesn't mean he would initiate a berserker charge, either.
In other words: it's usually quite difficult to complete your focus if you are dead. Thus, "staying alive" is probably on the forefront of a dwarf's mind more than anything else. I think any dwarf would have enough common sense to know that angering a magicker is probably not the best way to go about staying alive.
I like the weirdo's who like to RP with the gemmed and interact with them, myself. I also love seeing the Bynner higher-ups react to Gemmed. Sometimes there've been some... AHEM... interesting emotes. And words thrown around. Never any pink ponies, though.
I have to say players, from what I see, do fine. Some people just like to play the people in society who are going to get their throat slit for liking Gemmed. It's a fact.
You have to remember, Gemmed have a lot to offer you. For instance: how ballin' is it to hang around a dude with a -gem- on his throat? And let's not forget he has MAGIK POWUR. That's always cool. Some people like the unknown. Some peoples chars, for whatever reason, are dim and ignorant to it. Some people might even -use- the Gemmed as a way to keep people off their backs. Nobody really knows. It's up to players to have a good reason for liking the Gemmed, though.
I have a simple coded solution to helping re-enforce magick hate/fear.
When around magickers your usual skills act at a small penalty. When magickers are around each other their skills/spells act a small bonus. This does not stack. Small is defined, in this context, as just enough to be slightly noticeable to non masters of their skill. Add this to the helpfile on magick.
We'll call this magick aura: the psychological effect most Zalanthians experience around magick. Some guilds/races could be immune as the lore sees fit. Guaranteed to make players think twice about running around with magickers even if they were given IC reasons to. This effect wanes in time if you hang out with a lot of magickers so as not to affect players who do have to do it for their livelihood. They become used to it.
Despite the fact that I think most of the player base are top notch players, the temptation to take advantage of magick instead of despise it can be a little too much out there.
Quote from: Saellyn on April 02, 2010, 09:02:10 AM
You have to remember, Gemmed have a lot to offer you. For instance: how ballin' is it to hang around a dude with a -gem- on his throat? And let's not forget he has MAGIK POWUR. That's always cool. Some people like the unknown. Some peoples chars, for whatever reason, are dim and ignorant to it. Some people might even -use- the Gemmed as a way to keep people off their backs. Nobody really knows. It's up to players to have a good reason for liking the Gemmed, though.
I can't really say I agree with any of this, at all. Magick is not considered 'cool'.
Quote from: Akaramu on April 05, 2010, 03:40:05 AM
Quote from: Saellyn on April 02, 2010, 09:02:10 AM
You have to remember, Gemmed have a lot to offer you. For instance: how ballin' is it to hang around a dude with a -gem- on his throat? And let's not forget he has MAGIK POWUR. That's always cool. Some people like the unknown. Some peoples chars, for whatever reason, are dim and ignorant to it. Some people might even -use- the Gemmed as a way to keep people off their backs. Nobody really knows. It's up to players to have a good reason for liking the Gemmed, though.
I can't really say I agree with any of this, at all. Magick is not considered 'cool'.
The docs and the Staff probably don't agree with it either.
I kind of thought that was meant to be sarcastic and funny, actually.
Quote from: Saellyn on April 02, 2010, 09:02:10 AM
I like the weirdo's who like to RP with the gemmed and interact with them, myself. I also love seeing the Bynner higher-ups react to Gemmed. Sometimes there've been some... AHEM... interesting emotes. And words thrown around. Never any pink ponies, though.
I have to say players, from what I see, do fine. Some people just like to play the people in society who are going to get their throat slit for liking Gemmed. It's a fact.
You have to remember, Gemmed have a lot to offer you. For instance: how ballin' is it to hang around a dude with a -gem- on his throat? And let's not forget he has MAGIK POWUR. That's always cool. Some people like the unknown. Some peoples chars, for whatever reason, are dim and ignorant to it. Some people might even -use- the Gemmed as a way to keep people off their backs. Nobody really knows. It's up to players to have a good reason for liking the Gemmed, though.
I hope this was meant to be sarcastic.
Quote from: Niamh on April 05, 2010, 09:08:31 AM
Quote from: Saellyn
You have to remember, Gemmed have a lot to offer you. For instance: how ballin' is it to hang around a dude with a -gem- on his throat? And let's not forget he has MAGIK POWUR. That's always cool. Some people like the unknown. Some peoples chars, for whatever reason, are dim and ignorant to it. Some people might even -use- the Gemmed as a way to keep people off their backs. Nobody really knows. It's up to players to have a good reason for liking the Gemmed, though.
I hope this was meant to be sarcastic.
It doesn't read sarcastic to me in context with the rest of the post, but I also don't think he/she is necessarily an exception.
Plenty of people rationalize non-violence and non-hatred toward elementalists in-game. They make such rationalizations because the game is about interactions and a "fear me/hate me" mandate makes for an extremely limited range of possible encounters.
If we consider the following:
"I am friendly with Habutap the Krathi because:"
a) His MAJIK PWURS, they are so cool.
b) He's a powerful ally against my enemies.
c) I don't like it, but I need to employ him, or else my enemy will employ him and use his power against me.
d) I knew him before he manifested, and I still believe there's some good in him.
e) I hate magick, but I love the man/woman.
f) I don't trust magick, but we need it to defeat a common enemy.
Are
any of these good reasons to be friendly with a magicker? I'd imagine many of you would, or did, accept some of these reasons as valid and viable if you needed/wanted to rationalize peaceful interaction with another player. You may feel that some are acceptable, but others are not, yet they all lead to the same destination, which is a mundane tolerating and even employing, loving, and supporting a magicker.
I've often thought the magick documentation would be difficult to enforce in a unique environment like Allanak. To some degree, Allanak is a lot like a zoo. There are very dangerous, powerful, man-eating predators walking not more than a few meters from where you stand, yet, you well know there are measures in place to protect you against them. You rarely hear of a magicker assaulting someone in a tavern, or in plain daylight before the guards, and have even seen templars and soldiers chase them and keep them in line when they've broken such rules. The only time people seem to get hurt is when they enter situations where they put themselves at risk, similar to standing too close to the bear enclosure, slipping over the fence of the gorilla habitat, or throwing rocks at the tigers.
If you saw someone at the front of a wilderness preserve talking about the animal dangers along a trail you were about to hike alone, it would probably be mandatory and you would probably listen very carefully to everything they said because the danger would be obvious. However, if you put that same person in front of a zoo, I doubt even half of the people streaming through the gates would stop to listen to them yammer on about something they well know is an unlikely event. An event over which most people probably feel some level of individual control, such as where they stand, what part of the parks they visit, and how close they get to the animals.
I've always seen this disparity as one of the major instigators of players struggling with a universal hate/fear reaction to magickers.
-LoD
Quote
There are very dangerous, powerful, man-eating predators walking not more than a few meters from where you stand, yet, you well know there are measures in place to protect you against them. You rarely hear of a magicker assaulting someone in a tavern, or in plain daylight before the guards, and have even seen templars and soldiers chase them and keep them in line when they've broken such rules. The only time people seem to get hurt is when they enter situations where they put themselves at risk, similar to standing too close to the bear enclosure, slipping over the fence of the gorilla habitat, or throwing rocks at the tigers.
I don't think comparing magickers to animals is a good analogy. Magickers can communicate and have the power of reason, unlike animals. They can restrain themselves through having foresight of the consequences of their actions. They are capable of empathy and understanding.
Comparing muls to animals might be more apt. Muls, well-played, can be very scary. Because sometimes they -will- snap, regardless of the consequences.
Quote from: Salt Merchant on April 06, 2010, 05:40:42 PM
Quote
There are very dangerous, powerful, man-eating predators walking not more than a few meters from where you stand, yet, you well know there are measures in place to protect you against them. You rarely hear of a magicker assaulting someone in a tavern, or in plain daylight before the guards, and have even seen templars and soldiers chase them and keep them in line when they've broken such rules. The only time people seem to get hurt is when they enter situations where they put themselves at risk, similar to standing too close to the bear enclosure, slipping over the fence of the gorilla habitat, or throwing rocks at the tigers.
I don't think comparing magickers to animals is a good analogy. Magickers can communicate and have the power of reason, unlike animals. They can restrain themselves through having foresight of the consequences of their actions. They are capable of empathy and understanding.
Comparing muls to animals might be more apt. Muls, well-played, can be very scary. Because sometimes they -will- snap, regardless of the consequences.
I wasn't really trying to compare magickers to vicious animals in any other way than that they both can represent a powerful and potentially deadly threat to the general population. What I really meant to compare were the two environments, both of which were designed with specific attention to allowing dangerous elements to coexist with the general populace. In both environments, there are checks and balances in place to ensure that the more wild and dangerous element does not accidentally or incidentally harm the much larger population. And I also wanted to draw attention to the similarities that could develop between how someone would treat such a dangerous element, like a tiger (something most people would greatly fear) in the wild compared to how they would treat one in a zoo.
Granted, the situations aren't the same, but the existence of measures that serve as a buffer between the two elements can contribute to how characters may play out their fear of magick in the wilderness compared to within the walls of Allanak.
-LoD
I've never been pleasant to gemmers, but nowadays after playing FF13 I treat them like fal'cie, and I'm from Eden, Cocoon.
I was -definitely- being sarcastic with the reasoning. If I want to tangle and tick the guy that could blow me up off, I'll have a damn good reason to do it. Otherwise, I'm not gonna push my luck any more than I do with every char I've ever played.