Gemmed Treatment and Roleplay v.68468176981435

[Qzzrbl]

Guild Water Elementalist  

Water elementalists are the most valuable mages in existence on the parched desert world of Zalanthas. There is no better companion than an expert water mage on a long journey.

Most magicks of water mages stem from Vivadu, the elemental plane of water. Water mages are able to conjure water from that plane with ease, and can learn to have complete control over all waters, to poison or purify, to create or destroy. While possessing almost no combat abilities, water mages are powerful in more subtle ways: they are able to heal virtually any wound, create impenetrable barriers around themselves, and manipulate liquids.

Water mages are highly employable, amongst those who would hire any mage to begin with. As companions on journeys they can be worth incredible sums of money, and as permanent parts of clans or Houses worth even more. Due to the widespread unease generally felt around any mage, however, only large organizations generally will consider hiring a water elementalist.

Bolded parts need no more explanation....

I'm not disagreeing with Jenred-- he's right. Just because magickers are feared and hated doesn't mean they're not useful.... But they're only useful to certain people.

The exceptions to the rule, the people who don't hate/fear magick, the people who don't mind being casted upon, the people who would even -pay- to be casted upon.... These are the people magickers are useful to (along with Oash and the Southern Templarate). Ever wonder why you don't see many of these commoners consorting with mages publicly?  Because they don't want you to know.

Common people are (as they should be) very hush-hush when it comes to hiring a mage for anything, because it can destroy their reputations if they're found out.

[Jenred]

Apparently the quoting gives you tunnel vision too. You left out a few key components of the same helpfiles you quoted:

More than any other mage, sun mages are employed for purposes of combat.

Stone mages may be employed as part of an army or scouting group, for they are well able to weave protective magicks around their companions. Stone mages can also be invaluable as travelling companions because of their abilities to conjure mounts and construct shelters for rests during long journeys.

Water mages are highly employable, amongst those who would hire any mage to begin with.  As companions on journeys they can be worth incredible sums of money, and as permanent parts of clans or Houses worth even more. There is no better companion than an expert water mage on a long journey.

Nearly as much as water mages, wind mages are able to sell their spells for a good profit, to those who would hire a mage in the first place. A powerful wind mage can be an absolutely invaluable ally, however, and so they may be sought out to aid in various assassinations, espionage (at which wind mages can be very good), or military operations.

Invaluable. Proftiable. Incredible Sums. Highly Employable. Good Profit. Absolutely Invaluable.

And you keep harping on "only Oash" the rest is "exception to the rule". That is not correct. And I don't know where you are basing this assumption. Its not the documentation, or staff responses on the matter. Mages are hired by alot more than Oash. There is a difference between public and private, discreet and blatant, secret and not secret. I've never had any trouble finding employ in whatever house I wanted as a skilled mage. Of any type. There is no existing clan that has not had a magicker in it, in either public or sponsored roles.

[Synthesis]

I'm pretty sure those help files are outdated and no longer relevant.

[Jenred]

I'm pretty sure those help files are outdated and no longer relevant.

(if you were kidding, in an attempt to be satirical about my just referencing how people use this as a defense less than 3 posts above this, I apologize)

This is an erroneous opinion.
If they were no longer relevant, they would've been edited, the first time this was brought to staff attention, years ago.
They are still relevant. People continuing to say "they are not relevant" is actually a psychological problem, where people try to justify their own thoughts/opinions by externalizing them and projecting them on something.

"The documentation about Elves being thievy is outdated." - because I want to play an elf that is welcome in society. /sarcasm

[Lizzie]

Actually there are a lot of docs that are outdated and, because of IC events and code changes which have led to new "actualities," those outdated docs are irrelevant. Unfortunately, the docs haven't been updated with a little note saying "disregard THESE docs..they no longer count." So no one really knows for sure which outdated docs they should be paying attention to, and which ones they're supposed to ignore. Until..something happens IC, or through staff e-mail, and you are informed that the docs are outdated and irrelevant.

So, those docs -might- be irrelevant. Or, they might not be. Just because they exist, doesn't mean they're valid. It doesn't mean they're not, either. Making -any- assumption about the game based on 5+ year-old documentation is probably not a good idea.

[Marc]

Actually there are a lot of docs that are outdated and, because of IC events and code changes which have led to new "actualities," those outdated docs are irrelevant. Unfortunately, the docs haven't been updated with a little note saying "disregard THESE docs..they no longer count." So no one really knows for sure which outdated docs they should be paying attention to, and which ones they're supposed to ignore. Until..something happens IC, or through staff e-mail, and you are informed that the docs are outdated and irrelevant.

So, those docs -might- be irrelevant. Or, they might not be. Just because they exist, doesn't mean they're valid. It doesn't mean they're not, either. Making -any- assumption about the game based on 5+ year-old documentation is probably not a good idea.

Eh.  I think we have to follow the docs unless staff says otherwise.

However!  Jenred is extrapolating the wrong information from the help files.  Employable.  Invaluable.  Etc Etc Etc.  Sure, but the key there is "to those that would hire a mage in the first place".

[EldritchOrigins]

In response to the last few posts (I don't want to take the time to read the entire thread yet)...

There is a difference between utilizing a magicker for something and putting them on the payroll (IE: clanning one).  The difference between contracting out a job for a magicker to do (fill all the water cisterns in the estate, kill someone, spy on someone), and bringing them on as a full employee with all the benefits.

If Zalanthan organizations had insurance, hiring a magicker any but a few organizations would make the premiums skyrocket!   The risks of having someone with the powers akin to a god, without the wisdom to go would be iimmense.

This isn't even going into the social factors.  To vaguely reference recent widespread IC events that have proven to be unfortunate for large portions of the world, many people would and do blame these things on magickers.  And who knows, maybe they are to blame.   But that'd be getting too IC.

As far as the code goes magicker characters are relatively safe in that a magicker can't use the magick code to (accidently or intentionally) topple buildings or flood anything without assistance from the staff.  But that isn't to say that crazy and fantastic things couldn't happen.  I think it is our responsibilities as players to convey this through our role-play. Not just the role-play of people playing the magickers/gemmed, but also by people that interact with them.  And by this I don't mean completely shun them, but have portray a real respect/fear of the power of magick and not treat it as a trivial thing.

[FantasyWriter]

If you feel a piece of documentation is out of date, inaccurate or poorly worded, go to:
http://www.armageddon.org/login.php?returnURL=/request/index.php
-> Website
-> -> Bug/Typo/Idea

In the large rectangular box:
1.  Paste a link to the documentation page or Title for the helpfile.
2.  Below that paste the section of the documentation you fill is inaccurate.
3.  Point to the conflicting documentation or why you think it is inaccurate.
4.  In the event that staff agrees, it would probably be helpful for you to include and "accurate/updated" string of text to replace the existing one.

I've had at least two helpfiles and three website documents updated that I've submitted changes for over the last year alone.
I've never submitted one that wasn't implemented.


PS - If you feel that someone is Roleplaying poorly, file a player complaint.
      Staff has said many times that the discussion board is not the place to talk down someone else's roleplay.

[Twilight]

A lot of the magicker helpfiles (obviously not Void, Elkros and Shadow) have the same or essentially the same wording they did prior to the Tuluki Cataclysm.  You know, when mages ran around that other city, ungemmed, and we all were clanned with Khomar so we could use their garden to skill up in.

[number13]

but have portray a real respect/fear of the power of magick and not treat it as a trivial thing.

Meh.

It's easier to respect/fear gickers who earn respect/fear.  I'm all for cowering under the oppressive gaze a well played templar or noble. It's fun.  In all my years of playing, I've personally remember maybe three magickers who deserved that kind of reaction.

One can play Miss Sweetness Socialite as a gicker, yes, but there should be an undercurrent of obvious danger to the character. Be a danger to everyone and everything.  Emote flare-ups, cast a spell on the 'wrong' target while out hunting with the crew, let the occasional bit of creepy dialog slip.  If people aren't getting that your character is dang nasty evil, turn up the volume.

It would be easier to accept the idea of the gemmed as useful but scary tools, hanging out at their own table in the Gaj unmolested by roving Bynners -- if the scary bit was emphasized as much as the useful bit by gemmed players. (and if they were hanging out at their own table, instead of the main bar) A guideline, in my own head, would be to play each and every magicker as unapologetically Chaotic Evil.  Any pretense of social niceties would be just a veneer.

imo, the situation would clear itself up if non-mundanes were exclusively sponsored/special apped roles, with karma's only function to provide a guideline for staff.  I think it would put an end to this endless cycle of bitching if each magicker had a clear mandate and part to play in the over-arcing plot.

[Pale Horse]

but have portray a real respect/fear of the power of magick and not treat it as a trivial thing.

Meh.

It's easier to respect/fear gickers who earn respect/fear.  I'm all for cowering under the oppressive gaze a well played templar or noble. It's fun.  In all my years of playing, I've personally remember maybe three magickers who deserved that kind of reaction.

One can play Miss Sweetness Socialite as a gicker, yes, but there should be an undercurrent of obvious danger to the character. Be a danger to everyone and everything.  Emote flare-ups, cast a spell on the 'wrong' target while out hunting with the crew, let the occasional bit of creepy dialog slip.  If people aren't getting that your character is dang nasty evil, turn up the volume.

It would be easier to accept the idea of the gemmed as useful but scary tools, hanging out at their own table in the Gaj unmolested by roving Bynners -- if the scary bit was emphasized as much as the useful bit by gemmed players. (and if they were hanging out at their own table, instead of the main bar) A guideline, in my own head, would be to play each and every magicker as unapologetically Chaotic Evil.  Any pretense of social niceties would be just a veneer.

imo, the situation would clear itself up if non-mundanes were exclusively sponsored/special apped roles, with karma's only function to provide a guideline for staff.  I think it would put an end to this endless cycle of bitching if each magicker had a clear mandate and part to play in the over-arcing plot.

It is true, part of the responsibility to create fear of magickers in the player base is on the player of a mage character..if their character wishes to be feared, or it's part of how the player plays.

Also, see my post on the previous page.  All it takes it just one perceived "abuse of power" and the GDB gets a new thread about how Magickers need to have their teeth-pulled.

[jhunter]

but have portray a real respect/fear of the power of magick and not treat it as a trivial thing.

Meh.

It's easier to respect/fear gickers who earn respect/fear.  I'm all for cowering under the oppressive gaze a well played templar or noble. It's fun.  In all my years of playing, I've personally remember maybe three magickers who deserved that kind of reaction.

One can play Miss Sweetness Socialite as a gicker, yes, but there should be an undercurrent of obvious danger to the character. Be a danger to everyone and everything.  Emote flare-ups, cast a spell on the 'wrong' target while out hunting with the crew, let the occasional bit of creepy dialog slip.  If people aren't getting that your character is dang nasty evil, turn up the volume.

It would be easier to accept the idea of the gemmed as useful but scary tools, hanging out at their own table in the Gaj unmolested by roving Bynners -- if the scary bit was emphasized as much as the useful bit by gemmed players. (and if they were hanging out at their own table, instead of the main bar) A guideline, in my own head, would be to play each and every magicker as unapologetically Chaotic Evil.  Any pretense of social niceties would be just a veneer.

imo, the situation would clear itself up if non-mundanes were exclusively sponsored/special apped roles, with karma's only function to provide a guideline for staff.  I think it would put an end to this endless cycle of bitching if each magicker had a clear mandate and part to play in the over-arcing plot.

I don't think you get it. You shouldn't have your pc fear them because -all- of them -are- evil. You have your pc fear them because in -this- gameworld -most- people -believe- them to be. This is a perfect example of what I stated earlier, some people refuse to rp any fear of magickers unless you fucking nuke their pc. Remember, realistically played magickers are, in reality, no different than any other pc without magick. They have differing personalities, hopes, dreams, etc. One shouldn't have to actually be "evil magicker of DOOM" for your pc to have fear of them. You are -choosing- to put the responsibility on the player of the magicker to be scary instead of owning up to the responsibility to rp your character accordingly. You are choosing which parts of the documentation to agree with and which parts to ignore.

[EldritchOrigins]

My point is more about the fear/respect for the capabilities of magick.  A magicker might be a duffus, but that isn't to say people know what they may or may not be capable of.  On a OOC level people know what magickers can and can't do so on an OOC level this leaks into play.  Most fear is fear of the unknown, fears of the known aren't as threatening because people can prepare for them, or at least take cacluated risks.  I think that wouldn't be the case with magick.

I'm not saying people would be afraid of magickers, but that they would be afraid of -magick- itself (which is part of what a magicker is).

People are afraid of/respect the power of mekillots because they can squish people and do tremendous damage.  What sort of things is magick capable of that people should be afraid of?

[Salt Merchant]

A lot of the magicker helpfiles (obviously not Void, Elkros and Shadow) have the same or essentially the same wording they did prior to the Tuluki Cataclysm.  You know, when mages ran around that other city, ungemmed, and we all were clanned with Khomar so we could use their garden to skill up in.

This is true.

Concerning the creation of fear: one time, there seemed to be a few stories about gemmed being killed appearing triumphantly on tavern boards. My gemmed stumbled across a dead PC (clearly killed by a beetle in a sandstorm or the like) and decided to create a story of his own. He dumped the head at a city gate or in a tavern (I forget which) and told a story of how magickers should not be attacked lightly (also posted to the tavern board).

Everything would be cool, I figured. Fear of magickers without actually killing anyone and "abusing my power".

My impression from subsequent events is that the player whose character died sort of thought "wtf?" upon hearing of it with his next character, and the word spread through some OOC grapevine that the story was actually an invention rather than the truth, negating any effect it might have had.

[A Dry, Quiet War]

People are afraid of/respect the power of mekillots because they can squish people and do tremendous damage.  What sort of things is magick capable of that people should be afraid of?

Really, people are afraid of/respect the power of mekillots because they do squish people and do tremendous damage.  The gemmed aren't widely known for it.

Color me naive, but I've known only one magicker that I was afraid of, and it was because he actually made a (very creditable) effort to be frightening.

[number13]

This is a perfect example of what I stated earlier, some people refuse to rp any fear of magickers unless you fucking nuke their pc.

You don't have to nuke anyone to be scary. I've had PCs with practically zero coded power scare the crap out of people.

There's layers here. Your magicker might believe that he's the bestest best guy in the world, but OOCly you have a responsibility to ensure that other PCs view you as an abomination.  So while your guy is trying to act as magnanimously as possible, you the player are sabotaging his efforts intentionally.

Separate yourself from the character.  You are not him. He has this thoughts, and you have your responsibly. (including, a responsibility to your own fun.)

Remember, realistically played magickers are, in reality, no different than any other pc without magick.

Then play PCs without magic, if they are the same.  If they really, really are the same, then where's the interesting RP? Why have that type of character at all?

First off, power corrupts.  You've got a guy who can shoot flames out of his fingers, that's got to have an effect on one's sense of worth. Second off, everyone hates them.  If everyone, and I mean everyone, in the world thought of you as a villain, it wouldn't be long until you started approximating the role. A person can only be told, "You are an abomination," so many times before it starts to become true.  Exceptions should be rare as an elf riding a kank.

Finally, and I know it's not in the docs, there's an unnatural force living in their head -- the connection to the elemental plane. As that connection deepens, why wouldn't they become more alien, with less empathy towards others who are not connected to the same element?  What is in the docs is a sense of antagonism between certain magickers (such as Krathi and Drovian, Nilazi and every other element.)  If there's no connection on a psychic level, then there's no reason for that antagonism to develop in individuals.

You are -choosing- to put the responsibility on the player of the magicker to be scary instead of owning up to the responsibility to rp your character accordingly.

They're playing the karma-ed role, so yes, they should have the responsibility.  That responsibility would be even more clear if the role were sponsored, but the karma ought to be enough.

[spawnloser]

People are afraid of/respect the power of mekillots because they can squish people and do tremendous damage.  What sort of things is magick capable of that people should be afraid of?

Magick destroyed Old Tuluk.  Magick sunk an entire city into the sand.  Magick turned an outpost-sized locale into nothing but a crater.  Magick turned a lush world into a mostly-arid wasteland.  Magick killed an entire race of people.  Magick made horrible horrible creatures that can do nasty things to you.  Good enough?  If they can do these things, just imagine the sort of things they could do to just one person.

[number13]

Magick destroyed Old Tuluk.  Magick sunk an entire city into the sand.  Magick turned an outpost-sized locale into nothing but a crater.  Magick turned a lush world into a mostly-arid wasteland.  Magick killed an entire race of people.  Magick made horrible horrible creatures that can do nasty things to you.  Good enough?  If they can do these things, just imagine the sort of things they could do to just one person.

None of that even budges the needle on the scary-meter. Does it scare you? I mean, you you, not your PC. When you read that back, does a shiver run up your spine?  It's too big a scale to hit home, or too fantastic, and too over-saturated.  If you want a real reaction, you need to scare the player, not just the PC.

Look, after 9/11 (yeah, yeah), for the first few weeks afterwards, I'd look up and have to wonder every time an airplane passed over head.  But after years of airplanes generally not dropping out of the sky, it's really no bother. And when an airplane did drop out of the sky, there was a minute of panic (I have a brother who works for the IRS in Austin), quickly followed by a rational and determined search for information.  Point is, people adapt.

After dealing with all the magickal calamities that have struck, people would have to adapt, or they all be barking mad.  Now, you have a whole quarter of individuals busy not being scary, safely collared by the Highlord and His templars. So, it's an uphill climb for any gemmer to be scary, but it's not impossible. You have to turn up the volume, up the ante a little, and one can do that as adequately with shadow-puppetry as with actual nukes.

But don't complain if Runner Amos isn't scared of your Krathi. You have all the advantages in that situation. You're the one playing the karma-ed role.  Onus is on you if the role isn't working.

[EldritchOrigins]

People are afraid of/respect the power of mekillots because they can squish people and do tremendous damage.  What sort of things is magick capable of that people should be afraid of?

Magick destroyed Old Tuluk.  Magick sunk an entire city into the sand.  Magick turned an outpost-sized locale into nothing but a crater.  Magick turned a lush world into a mostly-arid wasteland.  Magick killed an entire race of people.  Magick made horrible horrible creatures that can do nasty things to you.  Good enough?  If they can do these things, just imagine the sort of things they could do to just one person.

Thank you for illustrating my point.

[Qzzrbl]

If you -reaaally- want people to react to your magicker appropriately....

Don't get gemmed.

That's one of the easiest routes to having a scary magicker, no matter what element.

[Twilight]

Or, you know, raise up huge volcanos and rain death down upon cities and the PCs that inhabit them.

Scaring the player should be irrelevant.  If someone is depending on you to scare them, the player, in order to act realistically, then I would suggest they are not following the direction given by the staff through docs and comments on magick, not fully understanding the player/character divide and in the end depriving the rest of us of some of the richness that this world called Armageddon should be offering.

Magick and magickers are feared (ie, people are scared of them).  The ones that can squish meks are absolutely terrifying.

[jhunter]

Or, you know, raise up huge volcanos and rain death down upon cities and the PCs that inhabit them.

Scaring the player should be irrelevant.  If someone is depending on you to scare them, the player, in order to act realistically, then I would suggest they are not following the direction given by the staff through docs and comments on magick, not fully understanding the player/character divide and in the end depriving the rest of us of some of the richness that this world called Armageddon should be offering.

Magick and magickers are feared (ie, people are scared of them).  The ones that can squish meks are absolutely terrifying.

Yeah exactly. The attitude that's coming from some players is similar to saying "Why shouldn't my elf ride mounts? So what if the docs say they don't, it's up to everyone else to correct me ICly if they see my elf pc riding mounts." The docs state that people "fear" magick/magickers. It's not an option, much like elves riding mounts. Should the -player- have to feel that elves riding mounts is wrong? Should the -player- have to be scared of magickers? The answer is no. It's in the documentation and players who are attempting to play a believable character in -this- world (Zalanthas) should be working toward making their characters at least follow these guidelines.

[number13]

jhunter:

People have no problem RPing fear of southern nobles.  Nobles don't have benefits under the crime code. They got nothing in the way of coded power, really, except some swank accommodation and a few NPCs to boss around -- NPCs that explicitly can't be used to initiate PvP.

Figure out in your own head why fear of southern nobles works as advertised and fear of gemmers doesn't. Just saying "Gemmers are scary," on the GDB has produced little in the way of results, for years.  My suggestions for how to work the problem might or might not work, but it's a shade or two more plausible than banging your head against the same brick wall and expecting different results.

[jhunter]

There's no difference except that people are choosing to disregard one part of the documentation over another. When they should follow them the same whether it is regarding templars, nobles, or magickers. The only reason, one works over another or fails over the other is because people are -choosing- not to follow one for whatever excuse they can come up with.


I think I've said all I need to say and likely have said many times when these threads come up. I'm gonna move on now, this is getting old.

[Malken]

In a world where people are dying of thirst and starvation, in the middle of a desert world, where you have beings CURSED with the mean of creating unlimited amount of food and snapping perfectly pure and clear water out of thin air, it is no surprise that many have a hard time to come to terms with magick = curses and an abomination of nature.

When they created the magick system and they wanted it to be feared by everyone, they shouldn't have gone with 'classes' that were purely helpful in nature.