Gemmed Treatment and Roleplay v.68468176981435

[jhunter]

One of my pet peeves is people who stand up for gemmers IG, not that there is anything wrong with the action as it's a perfectly reasonable choice. What annoys me is that they are most likely avoiding the IC consequences for their actions because there weren't enough PCs there at the time to scorn them.

This is a perfect opportunity to take the initiative and do something with this situation rather than stew about it OOCly.

You guys hear that? Amos is sticking up for the 'gicker! He's bein' used by foul magicks, get him!
(because after all, going after the magicker would be kinda foolish, Amos the cursed however...)
or

You a 'gicker lover Amos? Or one of them fucks curse ya with their foul magicks?
(you'd best get your head straight, unless you want to be thought of as a tool of a dirty, baby-eating witch)

[HTX]

^ Yeah, very good idea. We need more "witch hunts", in my opinion. If anyone stands up for a magicker, it would make sense to report them to the Templarate (with a bribe if necessary) for been a suspected magicker. This will both enforce themeliness, and could result in interesting RP.

As an analogy: I've been among groups of highly homophobic people, where any behaviour perceived as feminine or stereotypically gay would get you suspected, if not outright branded, as a homosexual and consequently alienated and scorned.

Now, replace homosexuality with magickers, consider the fact that your average commoner is uneducated/very ignorant, and with what magickers are capable of (both codedly, and rumoured) and the fear which surrounds their abilities... it makes sense that "witch hunts" would be a common occurrance in Zalanthas.

[janeshephard]

^ Yeah, very good idea. We need more "witch hunts", in my opinion. If anyone stands up for a magicker, it would make sense to report them to the Templarate (with a bribe if necessary) for been a suspected magicker. This will both enforce themeliness, and could result in interesting RP.

As an analogy: I've been among groups of highly homophobic people, where any behaviour perceived as feminine or stereotypically gay would get you suspected, if not outright branded, as a homosexual and consequently alienated and scorned.

Now, replace homosexuality with magickers, consider the fact that your average commoner is uneducated/very ignorant, and with what magickers are capable of (both codedly, and rumoured) and the fear which surrounds their abilities... it makes sense that "witch hunts" would be a common occurrance in Zalanthas.

Why are you insisting, as some others, on jumping on the hatred part, but completely ignoring the fear part? Do you always play dwarves or something?

[Qzzrbl]

^ Yeah, very good idea. We need more "witch hunts", in my opinion. If anyone stands up for a magicker, it would make sense to report them to the Templarate (with a bribe if necessary) for been a suspected magicker. This will both enforce themeliness, and could result in interesting RP.

As an analogy: I've been among groups of highly homophobic people, where any behaviour perceived as feminine or stereotypically gay would get you suspected, if not outright branded, as a homosexual and consequently alienated and scorned.

Now, replace homosexuality with magickers, consider the fact that your average commoner is uneducated/very ignorant, and with what magickers are capable of (both codedly, and rumoured) and the fear which surrounds their abilities... it makes sense that "witch hunts" would be a common occurrance in Zalanthas.

Why are you insisting, as some others, on jumping on the hatred part, but completely ignoring the fear part? Do you always play dwarves or something?

Because hatred is unimaginably easy when you've got a group of like-minded people backing you. (i.e.: The near-entirety of mundane commoners in Allanak).

The fear comes in when a mundane is alone with, or outnumbered by gemmers.

[janeshephard]

Because hatred is unimaginably easy when you've got a group of like-minded people backing you. (i.e.: The near-entirety of mundane commoners in Allanak).

The fear comes in when a mundane is alone with, or outnumbered by gemmers.

Hatred is unimaginably easy to roleplay instead of fear.  I think that's what it really comes down to. Of course, in time, whether you liked it or not you would learn to fear magickers as I have. They are balanced to be much more powerful than mundane classes after a few days played.

[musashi]

They both have a place. You'll notice that the npcs of the city have no problem being angry and hateful of magickers in a big riotious group outside the elementalist quarter ... because there is a mob of them. Strength in numbers and all that.

I agree that fear is something that should generally be more prevelant when you meet them in more vulnerable circumstances.

[HTX]

I'm not sure where you got the idea I was completely ignoring the fear part.

Now, replace homosexuality with magickers, consider the fact that your average commoner is uneducated/very ignorant, and with what magickers are capable of (both codedly, and rumoured) and the fear which surrounds their abilities... it makes sense that "witch hunts" would be a common occurrance in Zalanthas.

Probably because of my analogy, which probably wasn't the best analogy to make, I admit.

Anyway, regarding fear/hatred towards magickers, I pretty much agree with musashi.

[Akoto]

Fear of the Gemmed is well and good. Hatred, absolutely. However, as someone who has interacted with them frequently (as a templar and as a Gemmed), I find that one can go too far in representing these things. It's important to remember that we are playing a game in which interaction is paramount, and one can only be shunned and cast out so many times before attempts to establish relationships seem futile.

What troubles me most about the recent wildfire of arguments against mages and magick is the circular nature of it:

"I don't like that mages can sit in their secret lairs / temples and grind their spells all day. It only takes them a little while to get powerful. They should be out interacting!"

"I don't like that the Gemmed are regularly interacting in my tavern. We should be shunning them, doing everything short of kicking them out to make it miserable. They should always RP their own persecution!"

When faced with the above, a Gemmed player is placed in a somewhat awkward position. The temples are too isolated, but the taverns are too close to polite society. They just want to interact with PCs, yet they're asked to make themselves unwelcome via NPCs. Where does this person, whose character has forever given up anonymity, go for role-play?  Believe me, in my time as a templar, I met with many Gemmed who keenly felt an isolation from society. Oash does not fit all comers, and the Council is gone. Provisions for them to have non-magickal, positive RP (we all like a bit of that) in exchange for having sacrificed secrecy are slim.

I don't wish to ease the societal views, but on an OOC level, there must be some leeway for the sake of practicality. That, or the complaints about Gemmed sitting in their Quarter/temples should die down, because doing anything else soon becomes dreary and unpleasant for the player. Let them have enemies, but don't begrudge them friendships if it's appropriate for all involved -- and only the players of those characters can decide such, not the documentation or anything else.

What a Gemmer should do is play their character. Representing the world and its reactions is the domain of a Storyteller.

[Synthesis]

Fear of the Gemmed is well and good. Hatred, absolutely. However, as someone who has interacted with them frequently (as a templar and as a Gemmed), I find that one can go too far in representing these things. It's important to remember that we are playing a game in which interaction is paramount, and one can only be shunned and cast out so many times before the attempts to establish relationships seem futile.

What troubles me most about the recent wildfire of arguments against mages and magick - and pardon me if I diverge a bit from the discussion here - is the circular nature of it:

"I don't like that mages can sit in their secret lairs / temples and grind their spells all day. It only takes them a little while to get powerful. They should be out interacting!"

"I don't like that the Gemmed are regularly interacting in my tavern. We should be shunning them, doing everything short of kicking them out to make it miserable. They should always RP their own persecution!"

When faced with the above, a Gemmed player is placed in a somewhat awkward position. The temples are too isolated, but the taverns are too close to polite society. They just want to interact with PCs, yet they're asked to make themselves unwelcome via NPCs. Where does this person, whose character has forever given up anonymity, go for role-play?  Believe me, in my time as a templar, I met with many Gemmed who keenly felt an isolation from society. Oash does not fit all comers, and the Council is gone. Provisions for them to have non-magickal, positive RP (and let's face it, we all like a bit of that) in exchange for having sacrificed the power of secrecy are slim.

I don't wish to ease the societal views, but on an OOC level, there must be some leeway for the sake of practicality. That, or the complaints about Gemmed sitting in their Quarter/temples should die down, because doing anything else soon becomes dreary and unpleasant for the player. Let them have enemies, but don't begrudge them friendships if it's appropriate for all involved -- and only the players of those characters can decide such, not the documentation or anything else.

What a Gemmer should do is play their character. Representing the world and its reactions is the domain of a Storyteller.

Ditto that for elves, breeds, 'rinthers, etc.  There's a point at which you as a player have to just say, "fuck it" and run completely solo, because every other player in the game has taken it upon themselves to represent hatred, but there aren't enough PC elves/breeds/'rinthers around to compensate.  After spending weeks getting no interaction but "fuck off," it starts to get a little tedious.

[Pale Horse]

Akoto's post summed up exactly what I attempted to post several times, before back off because I could not find a way to accurately express my thoughts in words.  Thank you, Akoto, for that.

[Cutthroat]

I agree with Akoto that after a certain point expecting one extreme and then the other is just too much.

Mundanes and gemmed magickers alike should just remember who their characters are and how closely they fit the bill of their average Allanaki. Deviation from the norm is acceptable, within reason. Like deviating from the documentation in other matters, so long as characters realize what they are doing is not normal, and are willing to suffer the potential IC repercussions for it, anything goes. And I am definitely not saying that gemmers and mundanes can't interact in a positive manner - just that they do have to be careful and consider if the interaction is acceptable, given both characters' station in society, backgrounds, present situation, and so on.

There is no black-and-white answer to any of the problems in the magicker/mundane interaction in Allanak, and I feel like discussing the topic as a whole is akin to beating a dead horse. It comes in a shade of gray, and any player with even a modicum of experience in interactions between two "different" PCs should understand this.

[Gimfalisette]

Agree 10000000% with what Akoto said.

[hyzhenhok]

Ditto that for elves, breeds, 'rinthers, etc.  There's a point at which you as a player have to just say, "fuck it" and run completely solo, because every other player in the game has taken it upon themselves to represent hatred, but there aren't enough PC elves/breeds/'rinthers around to compensate.  After spending weeks getting no interaction but "fuck off," it starts to get a little tedious.

The game's about roleplaying, not interaction. Yes, obviously they're related, but you shouldn't sacrifice the former for the sake of the latter. If being unable to interface with the mundane human majority is such a huge problem for you, you should know not to roll an elf or 'rinther or gemmed. Something about cake and eating it too, I think.

We need fewer pet peeves and more benefit of the doubt. If some fucker ignores your character, remember that they are roleplaying a character who may not have a reason to care about you. If some mundane doesn't act terrified or hateful towards gemmers, remember that the player is playing a character who might have a good reason for their beliefs. A gemmer might have a good reason to hang out in a tavern, but he also might have a good reason to hide away in his temple. 

[RogueGunslinger]

I don't think he was blaming anyone, simply stating it as a flaw of the games design.

[spawnloser]

hyzhenhok, you're attempting to make this issue into a black-and-white sort of thing that must, by nature of the game we play as suggested by Akoto, must be a shade-of-grey issue.  You can't expect magickers to avoid you because they're pariahs.  Treat them as pariahs.  Treat others as weird for associating with pariahs.  Don't expect them to not seek friends and go for drinks and all that, or call them bad players for frequenting a bar that you think they shouldn't be frequenting, because they're still playing characters, people that have all the desires of other people, including social interaction.

I'll also remind you that all magickers, gemmed included, are PCP-stuffed, baby-eating psychos wrapped in dynamite.  Do you seriously want to piss one off?  Fear is much more appropriate a response in front of a magicker, no matter the hatred your character may feel.  Just remember, some people will kill your character in the middle of the street/bar... why not a magicker character too?  Just because the magicker might get killed (after the fact) for doing it doesn't mean your character won't be any more dead and smoking.  The Templars can only protect you when they're there, can't they?

There is a reason you should fear magickers.  Just like in D&D, a 1st level fighter versus a 1st level wizard will result in a dead wizard, but a 15th level fighter versus a 15th level wizard, if that wizard has any time to prepare (and I assure that magickers in arm can be very well-prepared before you encounter them), means there's a crater where that 15th level fighter used to be.  It ain't much different in Armageddon.

[Salt Merchant]

...words of wisdom...

These should be included in the documentation or in a guide.

[Marc]

(DISCLAIMER: THIS POST DOES NOT CLAIM ANY SPECIFIC EXAMPLE OF ACTION IS RIGHT OR WRONG.  THERE ARE ALWAYS EXCEPTIONS AND SITUATIONS.)

If we want gemmed to be able to have easy access to friends, friendly interactions and feel good moments then the documentation here:

http://www.armageddon.org/rp/magick/index.html

needs to be changed.  I'm not saying they shouldn't exist, but they should not just be expected because we, the players, like them, enjoy them and would prefer them (enter/omit any terms here.  thats the gist).  Those friendships should be established much along the lines of elvish tests of trust.  Are you really going to trust the babyeater just because she's acting nice today?  What about when she's in a bad mood?

If you want to make a socialite, don't make a gemmed.  If you want an easy road to a circle of friends, don't make a gemmed.  It's not the roles job to bend to player expectations.

Magick should be rare.  Magick should be feared.  Magick should be a mystery.

To accomplish that we need to follow the documentation strictly and do our best to segregate and separate the mundane and magicker communities.  Not entirely separate, but along the lines of a midieval jewish ghetto.  This will mean less people willing to play magickers, an isolated role.  A good thing.  This does not mean they need different bars, or shouldn't see each other, but they should be seen and treated like the second class citizen they are.  Second class citizen with an unknown arsenal, itchy trigger finger and rampant contagious diseases.

Less magickers, less suspension of belief because -that- gemmed is OKAY, a more consistent environment with the npcs in the city etc etc etc.  Yes magick is less approachable as a character.  The fuckme's and grebber helpers are probably out, but those gemmed characters that are left will fill the role laid out by the documentation and be a stronger influence than before.

[hyzhenhok]

hyzhenhok, you're attempting to make this issue into a black-and-white sort of thing that must, by nature of the game we play as suggested by Akoto, must be a shade-of-grey issue.  You can't expect magickers to avoid you because they're pariahs.  Treat them as pariahs.  Treat others as weird for associating with pariahs.  Don't expect them to not seek friends and go for drinks and all that, or call them bad players for frequenting a bar that you think they shouldn't be frequenting, because they're still playing characters, people that have all the desires of other people, including social interaction.

I'll also remind you that all magickers, gemmed included, are PCP-stuffed, baby-eating psychos wrapped in dynamite.  Do you seriously want to piss one off?  Fear is much more appropriate a response in front of a magicker, no matter the hatred your character may feel.  Just remember, some people will kill your character in the middle of the street/bar... why not a magicker character too?  Just because the magicker might get killed (after the fact) for doing it doesn't mean your character won't be any more dead and smoking.  The Templars can only protect you when they're there, can't they?

There is a reason you should fear magickers.  Just like in D&D, a 1st level fighter versus a 1st level wizard will result in a dead wizard, but a 15th level fighter versus a 15th level wizard, if that wizard has any time to prepare (and I assure that magickers in arm can be very well-prepared before you encounter them), means there's a crater where that 15th level fighter used to be.  It ain't much different in Armageddon.

We're in agreement, this doesn't really contradict what I was saying.

I just think the arguments of "poor me, I want interaction but I'm playing a difficult, possibly socially isolated role" are unnecessary.

[AmandaGreathouse]

hyzhenhok, you're attempting to make this issue into a black-and-white sort of thing that must, by nature of the game we play as suggested by Akoto, must be a shade-of-grey issue.  You can't expect magickers to avoid you because they're pariahs.  Treat them as pariahs.  Treat others as weird for associating with pariahs.  Don't expect them to not seek friends and go for drinks and all that, or call them bad players for frequenting a bar that you think they shouldn't be frequenting, because they're still playing characters, people that have all the desires of other people, including social interaction.

I'll also remind you that all magickers, gemmed included, are PCP-stuffed, baby-eating psychos wrapped in dynamite.  Do you seriously want to piss one off?  Fear is much more appropriate a response in front of a magicker, no matter the hatred your character may feel.  Just remember, some people will kill your character in the middle of the street/bar... why not a magicker character too?  Just because the magicker might get killed (after the fact) for doing it doesn't mean your character won't be any more dead and smoking.  The Templars can only protect you when they're there, can't they?

There is a reason you should fear magickers.  Just like in D&D, a 1st level fighter versus a 1st level wizard will result in a dead wizard, but a 15th level fighter versus a 15th level wizard, if that wizard has any time to prepare (and I assure that magickers in arm can be very well-prepared before you encounter them), means there's a crater where that 15th level fighter used to be.  It ain't much different in Armageddon.

We're in agreement, this doesn't really contradict what I was saying.

I just think the arguments of "poor me, I want interaction but I'm playing a difficult, possibly socially isolated role" are unnecessary.

In all fairness, I don't think I've ever seen that arguement. I believe the closest I've seen to that was someone pointing out that if people don't want magickers in the Gaj and don't want them in the temple, there's really not much else they can go/do, to a degree and playability needs to be considered in that respect.

To add my own thoughts: I've really seen more than enough people who react to a magicker outright threatening them/becoming hostile with 'So what, you'll just get into some shit' or 'So, lots of things can kill me'. Entirely possible, and logical arguements. But when someone TRIES to make a magicker frightening, it's absurd that people don't even flinch. I'd love to see some healthy FEAR of magickers amidst the playerbase. Hate them, sure, but you hate a lot of things you don't fear. I can't go into specific details of the magick system, but until the last mage I played, I wasn't really aware of how powerful they were. Sure I'd had pcs who were afraid of pissing off magickers because that was the documentation... but now... it's because I know, OOC, that there is a FUCK of a lot about them to be afraid of. And while it won't affect things IC, because my pcs already feared it. But now, OOC, I have a kind of gut-clench reaction knowing that that mage can make my pc dead in seconds with barely a thought, from damn near anywhere in the world, given enough time's been played on them. Sure you see them every day in Allanak, and yes, I admit, fear may take a backseat, but to completely disregard and dissociate yourself from ANY fear when Mage x outright tells you 'Oh, I can flay your soul. Fuck killing you.'... sorry, but when you ARE ignorant of that facts of what magick can and can't do, that ought to scare the shit out of you.

[Jdr]

^

Awesome post.

[jhunter]

(DISCLAIMER: THIS POST DOES NOT CLAIM ANY SPECIFIC EXAMPLE OF ACTION IS RIGHT OR WRONG.  THERE ARE ALWAYS EXCEPTIONS AND SITUATIONS.)

If we want gemmed to be able to have easy access to friends, friendly interactions and feel good moments then the documentation here:

http://www.armageddon.org/rp/magick/index.html

needs to be changed.  I'm not saying they shouldn't exist, but they should not just be expected because we, the players, like them, enjoy them and would prefer them (enter/omit any terms here.  thats the gist).  Those friendships should be established much along the lines of elvish tests of trust.  Are you really going to trust the babyeater just because she's acting nice today?  What about when she's in a bad mood?

If you want to make a socialite, don't make a gemmed.  If you want an easy road to a circle of friends, don't make a gemmed.  It's not the roles job to bend to player expectations.

Magick should be rare.  Magick should be feared.  Magick should be a mystery.

To accomplish that we need to follow the documentation strictly and do our best to segregate and separate the mundane and magicker communities.  Not entirely separate, but along the lines of a midieval jewish ghetto.  This will mean less people willing to play magickers, an isolated role.  A good thing.  This does not mean they need different bars, or shouldn't see each other, but they should be seen and treated like the second class citizen they are.  Second class citizen with an unknown arsenal, itchy trigger finger and rampant contagious diseases.

Less magickers, less suspension of belief because -that- gemmed is OKAY, a more consistent environment with the npcs in the city etc etc etc.  Yes magick is less approachable as a character.  The fuckme's and grebber helpers are probably out, but those gemmed characters that are left will fill the role laid out by the documentation and be a stronger influence than before.

I don't see what the problem is then. There are -few/if any- exceptions in game at any given time. No offense but you're starting to sound like you have an OOC vendetta against magickers/magicker players more than there being any actual problem that needs to be addressed.

[jhunter]

hyzhenhok, you're attempting to make this issue into a black-and-white sort of thing that must, by nature of the game we play as suggested by Akoto, must be a shade-of-grey issue.  You can't expect magickers to avoid you because they're pariahs.  Treat them as pariahs.  Treat others as weird for associating with pariahs.  Don't expect them to not seek friends and go for drinks and all that, or call them bad players for frequenting a bar that you think they shouldn't be frequenting, because they're still playing characters, people that have all the desires of other people, including social interaction.

I'll also remind you that all magickers, gemmed included, are PCP-stuffed, baby-eating psychos wrapped in dynamite.  Do you seriously want to piss one off?  Fear is much more appropriate a response in front of a magicker, no matter the hatred your character may feel.  Just remember, some people will kill your character in the middle of the street/bar... why not a magicker character too?  Just because the magicker might get killed (after the fact) for doing it doesn't mean your character won't be any more dead and smoking.  The Templars can only protect you when they're there, can't they?

There is a reason you should fear magickers.  Just like in D&D, a 1st level fighter versus a 1st level wizard will result in a dead wizard, but a 15th level fighter versus a 15th level wizard, if that wizard has any time to prepare (and I assure that magickers in arm can be very well-prepared before you encounter them), means there's a crater where that 15th level fighter used to be.  It ain't much different in Armageddon.

We're in agreement, this doesn't really contradict what I was saying.

I just think the arguments of "poor me, I want interaction but I'm playing a difficult, possibly socially isolated role" are unnecessary.

In all fairness, I don't think I've ever seen that arguement. I believe the closest I've seen to that was someone pointing out that if people don't want magickers in the Gaj and don't want them in the temple, there's really not much else they can go/do, to a degree and playability needs to be considered in that respect.

To add my own thoughts: I've really seen more than enough people who react to a magicker outright threatening them/becoming hostile with 'So what, you'll just get into some shit' or 'So, lots of things can kill me'. Entirely possible, and logical arguements. But when someone TRIES to make a magicker frightening, it's absurd that people don't even flinch. I'd love to see some healthy FEAR of magickers amidst the playerbase. Hate them, sure, but you hate a lot of things you don't fear. I can't go into specific details of the magick system, but until the last mage I played, I wasn't really aware of how powerful they were. Sure I'd had pcs who were afraid of pissing off magickers because that was the documentation... but now... it's because I know, OOC, that there is a FUCK of a lot about them to be afraid of. And while it won't affect things IC, because my pcs already feared it. But now, OOC, I have a kind of gut-clench reaction knowing that that mage can make my pc dead in seconds with barely a thought, from damn near anywhere in the world, given enough time's been played on them. Sure you see them every day in Allanak, and yes, I admit, fear may take a backseat, but to completely disregard and dissociate yourself from ANY fear when Mage x outright tells you 'Oh, I can flay your soul. Fuck killing you.'... sorry, but when you ARE ignorant of that facts of what magick can and can't do, that ought to scare the shit out of you.

Preachin' to the choir Sista. 

[Marc]

Not a vendetta at all.  Just a different perspective.  I see, and thought others saw, too many magickers in the game.  Magick, IMHO, is very common where it ought not to be.  I also see, and thought others saw, a lot of very sociable, very accepted gemmed/known weirdos.  There are ALWAYS things I don't know.  Always connections and background I am not privy too, but -IMHO- those weirdos are accepted more often than not.  Since there is such a limited social sphere in Allanak it's more pronounced (and more difficult to address).

I'm asking for all players, but specifically the gemmed/weirdos themselves to bring the Magicker documentation more to life by visibly role playing discrimination and persecution.  The overwhelming majority of vocal responders have impressed upon me that they do not feel that is there responsibility beyond staying in-character.

That's the major point of contention.  I concede that always role-playing persecution in a role that 9 times out of 10 will always be persecuted is not going to be fun for everyone.  My suggestion is to not play a gemmed/weirdo if you're not willing to do this practically all the time.  Theirs is (the way I understand it. I'm not psychic!) that some balance has to be found between playability and the docs.

That's all My Not So Humble Opinion.

[Gimfalisette]

Not a vendetta at all.  Just a different perspective.  I see, and thought others saw, too many magickers in the game.  Magick, IMHO, is very common where it ought not to be.

Not really, no. For one thing, with only about 270 unique players in the game each week, we are always going to have proportionally "too many" gemmed mages, merchant family members, templars, nobles, and even Bynners. For the game to be truly proportional in population distribution, half of all PCs would have to be slaves; and there would be far less of every other kind of role (there wouldn't even be one whole Bynner in game). So the "there are too many magickers" argument simply doesn't work, because PCs are a different and separate population from VNPCs and NPCs.

For another thing, I subscribe to this little philosophy which goes: Let other players play what they freakin' feel like. If you don't want to play around magickers, it's pretty easy to avoid doing. That's not to say that you won't have the odd encounter with magick here and there, but if you don't want sustained, regular contact--that's easy to do. So you play yours, stop trying to control other players, and let them play theirs.

And I say all this as someone who has spent about 90% of her playtime playing mundanes.

[Conspiracy Theory]

Gimf, gotta say, that just doesn't work. It's up to the community with topics like this one to nudge the populace back into line with the docs so that the staff doesn't have to personally go around and crush them one by one (and make players even more paranoid about the staff being "out to get them" than they already are). If we let every topic be, particularly with regards to magick, the world would either be entirely out of line with the docs OR it'd be too much work for the staff.  "Shut up and let people play how they like" isn't the answer.

I've seen and had to play around what I believe was the very, very worst instance of magickers gone bad on Armageddon in its entire illustrious history, and if I ever see it again I may flip out and start breaking things. A strong community stance like Marc's will prevent that.

I agree with Marc. If people can't handle isolationist roles, they shouldn't take them. Magickers are scary, scary things. I expect both magickers and the people around them to reflect that, always. It drives me NUTS when they don't.