Gemmed Treatment and Roleplay v.68468176981435

[Winterless]

So, since there are two threads that currently have veered off into this area I thought I would make one discussion available to discuss where those have gone so those threads can get back to the original topic at hand.

In making this thread I request that we keep it civil and DO NOT post ANY IC sekrits. Let's try to keep this from getting locked as threads like this in the past have been.

You don't see gemmed in Red's Retreat. Because it's socially above them.

Not true. You do see them there from time to time.

Emphasis mine.

Magickers are generally easily avoided, even in Allanak, if you aren't at the scumhole bar which they'd rightfully be at. Sure, I've had my share of mages go to Red's, but never, EVER to hang out downstairs in the bar. More like upstairs, out of general sight, for semi-private conversation.

I think it's fine the way it is now.

I don't see adding a bar for the gemmed being of much help.

Giving gemmers their own bar would be like giving them a viable station. Gemmers do not have a station, they are the lowest of the low, lower than rinthis and even half-elven scum, lower than a non-citizen. Forcing them to have to go to the dirtiest bar in town, read The Gaj, is fitting because it shows them what they will never acclimate to, even if that be a dirty elven rinther.

Giving gemmers their own bar would be like giving them a viable station. Gemmers do not have a station, they are the lowest of the low, lower than rinthis and even half-elven scum, lower than a non-citizen. Forcing them to have to go to the dirtiest bar in town, read The Gaj, is fitting because it shows them what they will never acclimate to, even if that be a dirty elven rinther.

Sorry for the derail... Let's get this back to talking about a Karma System change.

This seems too extreme to me.

Whatever else people think, gemmed are citizens by the direct mandate of the Highlord and possess all the privileges of a citizen. They're not lower than a non-citizen; the criminal system treats them better (jail instead of death for petty crimes), for instance.

I've always thought the tavern keepers should be scripted to make things uncomfortable for the gemmers, though. After all, they might be scaring off other customers. Jack up the prices for gemmers, make them sit at the shitty table in the corner and stay away from the bar, stuff like that. Gemmers should be allowed to hang out in taverns, but they shouldn't just be one of the many patrons sitting at the bar, having a good time. The other patrons shouldn't allow it, and the establishment owners shouldn't allow it.

Ugh. No. Seriously...no. It's already plenty "uncomfortable" enough for gemmed to be in public anywhere within Allanak. Having played a gemmer, having played around gemmers a lot over the last 3 years, there is no need for further reinforcement to the current environment. Gemmed is about the most socially-isolated role one can play within a city.

As they should be. Magickers are karma roles for a reason. I don't think we should accept that gemmers are more tolerated than they ICly should be just because Lonely McGemmer wants some interaction.

I was typing up a post, but Gimf put it way better then I could have. It's seriously bad enough that some people are literally willing to deny you interaction (even the sort that involves shunning) because of what you wear on your throat location -- it doesn't need to get worse. The last time I played a gemmer, my only saving grace for interaction, inside Allanak, was the fact I was playing a Vivaduan, and most people passing through the elementalist's quarter would see me immediately.

Playing a gemmed magicker is completely voluntary. If you don't like the stigma that comes with the role, don't play it.

Gemmed is about the most socially-isolated role one can play within a city.

As they should be. Magickers are karma roles for a reason.

Completely faulty logic. Magickers are not karma roles because of the social isolation. Magickers are karma roles because they are codedly powerful. The fact that gemmed are automatically so socially-isolated is a large part of the reason why players would prefer to play hidden or rogue mages.

Playing a gemmed magicker is completely voluntary. If you don't like the stigma that comes with the role, don't play it.

Unhelpful, and uncognizant of the true systems problems which lead to the unpalatability of the gemmed role.

Gemmed is about the most socially-isolated role one can play within a city.

As they should be. Magickers are karma roles for a reason.

Completely faulty logic. Magickers are not karma roles because of the social isolation. Magickers are karma roles because they are codedly powerful.

I can't say I agree Gimf.  Magickers are karma roles both because they are codedly powerful AND because they have the social restrictions.  If you are playing a known magicker and being buddy buddy with everyone, you're doing it wrong (IMHO).  It might be IC for you to kiss ass with everyone so you get shunned less, but it's the players responsibility to help maintain a certain level of fear and distrust with magick. 

That's where, IMHO, the karma comes in.  Trust enough not to drop thermal nukes on a tavern for the lols and trust enough to maintain a realistic representation and help reinforce 'DOCUMENTED' stereotypes.

P.S. This is not to say gickers all need to play stereotypes, not at all.  But it is the players responsibility to play their magicker based on a world reacting to those stereotypes.

If you are playing a known magicker and being buddy buddy with everyone, you're doing it wrong (IMHO).  It might be IC for you to kiss ass with everyone so you get shunned less, but it's the players responsibility to help maintain a certain level of fear and distrust with magick.

Please do not twist what I have said to make it sound like I am advocating for magickers "being buddy buddy with everyone." That is not what I said, and it is not what I would say. In fact, there are potential options along the roleplay continuum other than "complete social outcast" or "everyone's favorite fuckbuddy."

Currently, however, the game environment does not lend itself to those other options being played by gemmed. I would like to see more subtlety and less stupidity in interplay between mundanes and magickers, and that is the responsibility of each player, regardless of their PC's guild.

My major point is the karma restriction is not JUST coded power.  You are trusted to set the world mood by including a negative reaction from the npc/vnpc world.  You, as the gemmed/known gicker, must include these negative responses to set an example for the rest of the player population to follow.  If you, the Player, never emote people glaring/leering/spitting/shouting at your gemmed/known gicker then, IMHO, you are doing it wrong.  That is where the trust comes in. 

It is on you, not the other PC's, to set the mood.  Why?  Because you chose to bring the magickal element into the RP equation.  That is not to say other PC's wont help.  You will have players who have played similar roles and (hopefully) will add to the environment.  But you cannot expect mundanes to step up.  Why?  Because they might not know HOW to react.  They could be newbs to Armageddon and react in a totally inconsistent way to the documentation.  Is reacting against documentation wrong?  No, but you as the player of a gemmed/known magicker must counter act any exceptional reaction with one more along the documentations line.  This is to maintain the feel of the world, your responsibility with karma.

This all ties into the OP.  There is no definitive answer for the Red's, the Trader's.  Practically anywhere in Allanak.  Social rank and class determines everything and there are too many variables in that equation to have it black and white.  But if you do go there, you need to RP the appropriate reaction.  Let's just not assume that reaction is cutndry.

My major point is the karma restriction is not JUST coded power.  You are trusted to set the world mood by including a negative reaction from the npc/vnpc world.  You, as the gemmed/known gicker, must include these negative responses to set an example for the rest of the player population to follow.  If you, the Player, never emote people glaring/leering/spitting/shouting at your gemmed/known gicker then, IMHO, you are doing it wrong.  That is where the trust comes in. 

It is on you, not the other PC's, to set the mood.  Why?  Because you chose to bring the magickal element into the RP equation.  That is not to say other PC's wont help.  You will have players who have played similar roles and (hopefully) will add to the environment.  But you cannot expect mundanes to step up.  Why?  Because they might not know HOW to react.  They could be newbs to Armageddon and react in a totally inconsistent way to the documentation.  Is reacting against documentation wrong?  No, but you as the player of a gemmed/known magicker must counter act any exceptional reaction with one more along the documentations line.  This is to maintain the feel of the world, your responsibility with karma.

This all ties into the OP.  There is no definitive answer for the Red's, the Trader's.  Practically anywhere in Allanak.  Social rank and class determines everything and there are too many variables in that equation to have it black and white.  But if you do go there, you need to RP the appropriate reaction.  Let's just not assume that reaction is cutndry.

I just can't agree. I am not, myself, particularly good at environmental emotes, nor do I really enjoy doing them. However, I have earned some karma for my play, almost none of which has included doing environmental/VNPC emotes, but much of which has included the responsible wielding of power. I do not have some gimongous "responsibility" to emote the rest of the city reacting to me, whether I'm playing a gemmer, a bard, a noble, a soldier, or whatever. Sometimes I do it when I feel like it, but environmental emotes are not the be-all-end-all of responsible roleplay.

It's not my job to mood up the scene for you, because that's not what my job is in ARM, period. My job in ARM, personally, is to be a leader, to make things happen, to set creative plots into motion, and to make interesting scenes by interacting with other PCs in interesting ways. However, it might be your job to mood up the scene, if that is what you are good at. You probably have talents I don't, and don't have talents I do, so by all means--do your job. I'll do mine.

There's just no one-size-fits-all for responsible karma-PC roleplay.

When I'm playing a gemmer and I go to a tavern, I don't go there for the purpose of adding oooOOOOooooo to your PC's life, for the most part. And I never will, because that is just not what I do.

Don't need to take it so far.  While I personally think it's cool when someone can really bring a room alive through creative emotes it's not within all of our creative powers.  Cool beans.  But you CAN still rp the world reacting to your character.  Add a sneer to the bartender when he hands you a drink.  If you don't want to include any npcs or vnpcs, just rp your character reacting to general distrust, stares, fear, glares etc.

The fact remains that you have to consider the environment with your RP.

It's not my job to mood up the scene for you, because that's not what my job is in ARM, period. My job in ARM, personally, is to be a leader, to make things happen, to set creative plots into motion, and to make interesting scenes by interacting with other PCs in interesting ways.

Your three examples of what YOU do all set the mood.  This might be nitpicking semantics, but by creating and roleplaying a believable character, you set the mood.  You can create a bearded dwarf who role plays summoning familiars and wears a wizard hat (possible!  or am I the only one who has seen the occasional hairy dwarf slip through chargen?), involve lots of people in wide-reaching plots, have a dynamic personality and be well liked.  That character, no matter how much people like him/her, would be wrong.  It does not fit with the game world. 

This is an over the top example but lines can be drawn to any character who ignores documentation in favor of being the exception.  We don't allow elves that ride.  We require dwarves to have a focus.  We enforce a muls (and much lesser extent, half-elves) internal struggle.  Why shouldn't we require that magickers respect and acknowledge overwhelming public opinion of them and role-play according?

You don't need flowery emotes to have a bartender refuse to serve you.  You don't need a masters in english to suggest that one of many many many npcs looked at you weird, crossed the street when they saw you coming or anything similar.

To draw on another post about engaging newbies THIS IS A MAGICKERS RESPONSIBILITY!  That newb is not going to know to spit on you.  RP that you're getting hassled!  Use it as a chance to educate a player about the role magickers fill in Armageddon.  These are not Gandolfs!

Then just take it one step further:  Do it with everyone, not just newbs.  Not everyone can keep emotes up constantly, but do what YOU can to reinforce the documentation.  To bring the hate, fear and distrust into the every day.  If you don't think that's your responsibility, mundanes might be a better route.

to the OP:  If your character would be accepted in the Red's, role play the reaction as YOU see it.  If they wouldn't, RP a believable reaction.  The heart of whether gemmed would or should be allowed is on whether it's the gemmed responsibility to segregate themselves or on other pc's to force them out.  Individual exceptions are just that, exceptions.

[Salt Merchant]

Well, in response to Marc, I'd argue it's not the responsibility of a gemmed's player (or anyone else) to dictate through emotes how NPCs and VNPCs behave. That sounds more like a staff responsibility to me.

Your opinion, for example, is that NPCs might spit at or otherwise provoke gemmed. Other people have been asserting that they should react with fear to someone who might curse their unborn children or strike them with seven weeks of bad fortune. To make such emotes is to impose -your- worldview of the game onto others.

[jhunter]

Your opinion, for example, is that NPCs might spit at or otherwise provoke gemmed. Other people have been asserting that they should react with fear to someone who might curse their unborn children or strike them with seven weeks of bad fortune. To make such emotes is to impose -your- worldview of the game onto others.

Agreed. I believe it more likely non-magickers would be fearful of pissing off a babyeating witch.

[jcarter]

If you are playing a known magicker and being buddy buddy with everyone, you're doing it wrong (IMHO).  It might be IC for you to kiss ass with everyone so you get shunned less, but it's the players responsibility to help maintain a certain level of fear and distrust with magick.

I agree and disagree with this. I think there's definitely a need for a lot of player responsibility, as far as keeping magick and things such as that a mystery. At one point, it seemed like it was easier to get a magick item than lockpicks or flashpowder. It seemed like every week there was some new super magick disaster that mages just wanted to tell every single person in the city who would listen about. I took a long break because I really just didn't like the direction the game was going on.

I don't agree that gemmers should avoid being friendly. They are people too and have the same needs as them. I do think, however, that the majority of the playerbase has the responsibility to react as appropriate to the situation. Whether to just avoid them, spit on them, kick them out, whatever. If some super nice gemmer wants to give your character a magicker thing, it is your responsibility to react appropriately. I've seen too many people that seem to lose all concept of this once they get a super 'gicker item and it's one of my pet peeves. If there's a new player than yeah, the above changes and things should be adjusted accordingly, but those are irregular circumstances and need to be looked at on a case-by-case basis.

Well, in response to Marc, I'd argue it's not the responsibility of a gemmed's player (or anyone else) to dictate through emotes how NPCs and VNPCs behave. That sounds more like a staff responsibility to me.

I agree that neither of those are a gemmed player's responsibility. However, I think a gemmed player, or really any player, emoting certain reactions from NPCs is beyond a player's scope. Ignoring obvious things, such as a bartender giving you a drink when you use the buy command, NPCs have ta history and background of their own. There's no saying how a NPC may react in any given situation outside of staff-use/animation.

As for VNPCs, I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with a player bringing one to life, provided it's realistic given the location and situation. Should a player 'animate' a VNPC to jump in front of them and take a bullet? No, but there's nothing wrong with a player throwing out there about a random Gaj patron wrinkling their nose at the sight of them.

[Zoltan]

If some super nice gemmer wants to give your character a magicker thing, it is your responsibility to react appropriately. I've seen too many people that seem to lose all concept of this once they get a super 'gicker item and it's one of my pet peeves.

JESUS GOD YES. That is one of my *twitch*-worthy peeves right there. Just... anything and everything involved in that sort of situation.

Anyway, I'm at a premium for time now, so I'll just throw out that blanket "it's -everyone's- responsibility to play with the game documentation in mind." And then I'll add that my very favoritest part of playing a gemmer (the thing that helps make it more than bearable) is the persecution and their documented role in society at large. Haters, keep on hating. Gemmers, keep on being aware of the game world and what your role means.

[Marc]

But you CAN still rp the world reacting to your character.  Add a sneer to the bartender when he hands you a drink.  If you don't want to include any npcs or vnpcs, just rp your character reacting to general distrust, stares, fear, glares etc.

The fact remains that you have to consider the environment with your RP.

I'm not interested in doing that, and I'm not going to do it. "Considering" the environment does not mean that I must roleplay what the environment does to me. It means only that I need to roleplay my reaction to and presence within the environment correctly.

And that's all I am asking from any gemmed.  If you walk around town, sit at all the taverns, use all the shops, utilize the bank, use the stables, all in the SAME MANNER YOU WOULD WITH A MUNDANE, imho, that is wrong.  You are ignoring the environment.  It is interacting with you the entire time, whether there are imms or pcs to throw emotes out.  This is a role-play required mud.  While certain subjects you are not forced to role-play (consent rule) everything else you are.  I am pretty certain that includes discrimination, intolerance, prejudices etc.

You might not have an interest in tribal RP.  I personally don't.  But if I go to the elven outpost I am going to consider that environment and role play accordingly.  You COULD go to the elven outpost as a known member of a noble house who hates elves and use the shops, buy a drink and generally do your thing.  If no PC's are around, does acting out that scene without hostility/intolerance/some-sort-of-weirdness okay?  IMHO, no.  (I too can come up with examples where this isn't the case.  It's an analogy)

You should not have to require an IMM animation or a PC to respond to the environment.  You should ALWAYS respond to the environment.  Always might be too high an order but it still needs to be strived for.

A lot of these issues, where gemmed can be, too much magicker-hatred or not enough, coded power etc would be resolved if we, the players, took the responsibility on ourselves to make non-mundane roles as gritty, hard and un-tolerated as they should be.  That is why they are karma guilds, not just because they drop bombs from their armpits.

So, yes, the Red is socially above the gemmed..unless it's not.

[Gimfalisette]

If the staff meant for there to be general evil stares, shoving gemmed around, etc. happening in the virtual environment, then they would code it in. That kind of stuff is already present for certain groups of PCs in certain locations; for example, if you are playing a Sergeant or higher soldier in the militia, there are coded echoes to you at certain places in Allanak which show VNPCs reacting to you in particular ways. There is no general mandate for players to roleplay out reacting to your (Marc's) perception of how the gameworld is, when there is no actual evidence to support that that is how the gameworld is.

However, feel free to RP that if you want to, yourself. Until/unless those things are actually present in the virtual environment, I am not going to assume that they are present, however. Just because you perceive the gameworld to be that way does not mean that is the truth of it.

[jcarter]

If the staff meant for there to be general evil stares, shoving gemmed around, etc. happening in the virtual environment, then they would code it in. That kind of stuff is already present for certain groups of PCs in certain locations; for example, if you are playing a Sergeant or higher soldier in the militia, there are coded echoes to you at certain places in Allanak which show VNPCs reacting to you in particular ways. There is no general mandate for players to roleplay out reacting to your (Marc's) perception of how the gameworld is, when there is no actual evidence to support that that is how the gameworld is.

Just because something isn't coded in doesn't mean it's not happening, nor supposed to be happening.

There are many things that you can do through the code that, realistically, should not happen and are bad form.

[Gimfalisette]

Just because something isn't coded in doesn't mean it's not happening, nor supposed to be happening.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion of how things should be, or are; just as I am entitled to my opinion of how things should be, or are, on this topic. The fact remains that there is insufficient evidence in the game environment to support a blanket statement such as "players should be responding to the virtual spitting, shoving, and general violence directed at their gemmed PCs, and if they are not doing so then they are roleplaying incorrectly."

If/when staff say that there is virtual spitting, shoving, and general violence being directed at virtual and PC gemmed, and/or they add echoes and other effects to the environment to show that these things are happening, then I will agree that PCs should be acting as if these things are happening on a regular basis. Until that time, I do not agree that PCs have some "roleplay responsibility" to act as if these things are happening on a regular basis.

[Lizzie]

There's no coded response to a lot of things, including magick-related "situations" in which it -should- make sense, that players would know to respond accordingly.

For instance...if a Wood-Witch walked through the streets of Allanak covered with glowing tree bark, the Militia NPCs are not coded to respond to it. The VNPCs are not coded to echo any reaction. The Templar NPCs would completely ignore it. But, the PCs will, and certainly should, have -some- kind of reaction. Whether that reaction is "quick call a templar!" or "oh shit I been cursed, I seen a glowin bark-witch!" or "uh..I think I'll just take a quick left. Right here. Yeah." or "OFF with his head!" or "woah...I wish I had bark, then anyone who touches me would get splinters, bwahahaha"..

Regardless of the reaction, it wouldn't be nonchalance. The game isn't coded to react. But players are expected to.

Edited to add: And, the wood-witch walking around covered with glowing tree-bark SHOULD be expected, to expect, a reaction from people who are in close enough proximity to notice that he's covered with glowing tree bark.

[Marc]

Unless there is an argument on whether the documentation states that magickers are feared, untrusted, hated, despised I was unaware of, pretty sure it is present in the virtual world.

Why are magickers hated? I want to be a nice elementalist!

Magickers are hated and feared by the populace. This is a fact of life on Zalanthas. In New Tuluk, a city once decimated by elementals, magick is forbidden. The general populace does not know what a magicker is and isn't capable of, and assumes the worst. Magickers are blamed for disease, bad luck, and any other negative occurence.

Right there the immortals have declared that they are Hated and Feared.  HOW they, the virtual world, reacts is up to YOU, the player.  THAT they react is not.  People, animals.  If they are capable of feeling fear or hate, they will react to it.  It might not be overt, but there WILL be a reaction.  To argue that is to argue against emotion.

The documentation states in black and white that magickers are hated and feared.  They are blamed for disease, bad luck, (famine?).  Staff might not intend Evil stares, shoves or any particular example.  I'm sure they intend for magickers to be hated and feared by the general populace.

To extrapolate:  If the vast majority of people hate and fear you, are the vast majority going to make absolutely no overt sign?  Is no one going to freak out and run away or freak out and yell something they'll regret?  They will just accept it as is?  That stablehand never fidgets when he hands you your mount?  The banker never helps NON-gemmed first?  The merchant house agent never refuses to sell to you?

There are all things you can add to the world that is NOT stepping beyond your power as a player.  If you insist on that npc having the same reaction for ANOTHER pc, you are overstepping your bounds.  If you are reinforcing a stereotype and keep it subtle, do you think staff is going to eat your cereal for power emoting?

There are a thousand and one ways to role play prejudice and discrimination for your gemmed/known magicker.  One style of role play might not fit yours, however it is your responsibility to reconcile your style with the documentation.  If you completely ignore the virtual worlds HATE and FEAR of you, then you are failing to do that.

That is the player of the magickers responsibility first and foremost.  Not other pc's reacting to them.

P.S.

players should be responding to the virtual spitting, shoving, and general violence directed at their gemmed PCs, and if they are not doing so then they are roleplaying incorrectly.

Please use quotes for statements like this.  I don't think anyone has said "THE ONLY WAY TO REACT IS VIOLENCE".  It's that there IS a reaction SOMEWHERE.

[hyzhenhok]

If the staff meant for there to be general evil stares, shoving gemmed around, etc. happening in the virtual environment, then they would code it in. That kind of stuff is already present for certain groups of PCs in certain locations; for example, if you are playing a Sergeant or higher soldier in the militia, there are coded echoes to you at certain places in Allanak which show VNPCs reacting to you in particular ways. There is no general mandate for players to roleplay out reacting to your (Marc's) perception of how the gameworld is, when there is no actual evidence to support that that is how the gameworld is.

However, feel free to RP that if you want to, yourself. Until/unless those things are actually present in the virtual environment, I am not going to assume that they are present, however. Just because you perceive the gameworld to be that way does not mean that is the truth of it.

My suggestion was merely that such things be implemented, to help bring the game world in accordance with the documentation. If the NPC barkeeper glared at you every time you sat down at the bar when you have a gem, it would help set the mood without really hurting your character or force them into being completely isolated.

You can't really argue that it doesn't belong just because it isn't already implemented. The game is evolving and constantly being fixed; the biggie I can point to is half-elves being given the capability to look like humans or elves. It was pointed out that such passing as the other races was in the documentation, and as such was added to the game. What you're arguing is the equivalent of "Oh, obviously that's not meant to be in the game, because for years you could race-sniff with assess -v."

I would say it's the other players' responsibility to react to you being a gemmer. There is plenty of reason that they would ignore your gemmed; they might not notice the gem or know you're a magicker. Sometimes this ignoring is a little too much, a little too frequent, even though often it's the result of little more than them forgetting to look at you or notice your gem. I've seen great paranoia towards magick roleplayed when players are cued or pointed to it, but it takes some initiative to start up some anti-magicker roleplay. I think echoes like a barkeeper glaring at you, or shooing you to a back table or something, etc, would go a long way towards cueing in, and I think you'd see improvements in roleplay without any real malus to the gemmed's ability to play the game. Mundanes will still interact with gemmers, but they'll be more aware and more willing to adjust their roleplay accordingly.

And gemmers will get that interaction, rather than sitting and being ignored like every other boring commoner idling in the Gaj. Win-win, as far as I'm concerned.

[spawnloser]

As brought up by someone else, you should generally NOT emote the actions/reactions of NPCs.  They have a background and personality all their own that you are not privy too.  Some VNPC wandering past?  Sure.  NPC?  99% of the time you should not.

Also, emoting a reaction to another's action IS emoting that first action, still forcing it on the V/NPC.

I find it insulting to be told that I have to emote the entire world for someone to think that I am roleplaying my character correctly, keeping in mind the game world.  Those are still environmental emotes, because as I said, if you emote the sneer in response to the bartender, you're still emoting the bartender's action... which makes it an environmental echo.  As pointed out, I don't have to emote the environment for me to be aware of and having my character act appropriately in the environment.

[Marc]

As brought up by someone else, you should generally NOT emote the actions/reactions of NPCs.  They have a background and personality all their own that you are not privy too.  Some VNPC wandering past?  Sure.  NPC?  99% of the time you should not.

Can you quote where staff has said you should not do this?  This as in small 'flavor' text added to interactions or mood i.e. Vennant or FlintMk2 serving a drink with a smile or a frown.  I am happy to admit I was wrong if someone can pull that out.  I really truly honestly want to know.

Also, emoting a reaction to another's action IS emoting that first action, still forcing it on the V/NPC.

This entirely depends on the answer to the above.  If, as I believe, staff is a-ok with 'power' emotes with npcs (keeping in mind the game world and not being stupid i.e. having templars bow to you, any sort of major interaction/fawning etc) then this point is moot.  If not, my stance holds no water.

I find it insulting to be told that I have to emote the entire world for someone to think that I am roleplaying my character correctly, keeping in mind the game world.  Those are still environmental emotes, because as I said, if you emote the sneer in response to the bartender, you're still emoting the bartender's action... which makes it an environmental echo.  As pointed out, I don't have to emote the environment for me to be aware of and having my character act appropriately in the environment.

No one is insulting you.  You even said what -IS- required:

having my character act appropriately in the environment

If you are acting appropriately in the environment you are considering the environment and how it would react to you.  If you are only in a "reactive" mode of role-playing tho, that IMHO is wrong.  You are not asked to react to the world, you are asked to INTERACT with the world.  That means keeping in mind the documentation and applying it to your role play.  That means always role-playing your gemmed as if the general population fears and hates you and would be acting accordingly.

How that manifests itself is entirely up to you (and staff).  That it manifests itself shouldn't be up for debate (but it seems to be)

Why is this part of gemmed/known gicker rp so hard to grasp?  No one argues that elves should ride and dwarves should have beards.  What makes persecution, fear and hate so different?  If these are not things you want to role-play, why chose a character type that has you barely ranked above insect?

...towards the social structure that brands them as nearly sub-human...

The above is in reference to magickers who support the city state in Allanak.  Since this conversation mostly revolves around gemmed, that is what a Producer has stated.  They don't occupy a special position save maybe a seat on the short-bus.  Individuals can raise themselves, but gemmed as a whole are barely human, segregated (as they should be!), persecuted, hated and feared.  You might say "People wont fuck with my gemmed!  They are too scared I'll turn their babies into kryl!" and that very well could be true.  But when those same people are in groups?  Some gain courage with groups.  Drink?  Some gain courage with drink.

While you (spawnloser/gimf/anyone else who doesn't) might not want to add mood setting emotes, IMHO it's your responsibility.  You don't have to emote a bartender sneering or a crowd spitting or pushing or any SPECIFIC thing.  You have to role play the worlds reaction to your character and your characters reaction to them.

If your an elf.  A mul.  A dwarf.  A sorcerer.  A soldier in the Arm.  A soldier in the Legions.  No matter what role you choose to fill you have to role play according to the documentation.  That leaves -HUGE- leeway on how you want the documentation to manifest but you cannot choose to ignore parts of the documentation/world just because you don't want to role play that.  With gemmed, you have to role play the fear and hatred.

As gemmed you also have karma (or the responsibility inherent with it).  You are choosing to bring magick into the role play equation.  You are forcing those around you to now include the magicker documentations in their role play.  Because you are bringing it in, it is on you to set the appropriate mood.  If you're sitting in the Gaj and no PC is even looking at your gemmed twice.  No one has reacted at all and you're all sitting around chatting about Lord Fancypants new trousers it is on YOU, the magicker, to remind everyone there that you are hated and feared.  If that's a sneer from the bartender, a glare from a crowd, fine.  If it's something else, fine.  But THAT it happens should not be up for debate.  You are bringing magick to life.  All aspects of magick.  Good and bad.  Comfortable and uncomfortable.

[spawnloser]

Seriously?  I have no idea how to begin searching on that one as I have no idea what the topic was being discussed when it was mentioned.  Ideally a staffer will come in and straighten it out, because believe me, forcing actions on individual, named NPCs through an emote is generally frowned upon, especially when it has to do with their attitude, like their attitude towards you.  I think this is less frowned upon when you're having them treat you unkindly versus kindly, admittedly.

Still, in the case of very specific NPCs like some bartenders and the like, I wouldn't force ANYTHING on them.  You don't really know those characters and having that individual treat you like crap when he would very possibly be more likely to just ignore your very existence instead.  You don't know the character.  Just because it isn't a PC doesn't give you the right to power-emote them.  You haven't read the background, so leave it out.

VNPCs?  Whole different animal.  The above is all just about NPCs.

Occasionally doing something?  Sure.  That'd be great, don't get me wrong, but you seem to think it is required.  The only premise I can assume you have to draw this conclusion further down the line is that emoting is required for good roleplay.  It's great when it's used, but it isn't a requirement.  There are so many other commands for you to roleplay that don't involve emoting.

[jhunter]

I believe Spawnloser is correct. That's they way I heard it in the past. Emoting for coded NPCs is a no-no. Emoting for VNPCs is okay.

[Marc]

I still think emoting for NPC's is fine so long as proper judgement is used.  I would also like a staff member to chime in here.

Occasionally doing something?  Sure.  That'd be great, don't get me wrong, but you seem to think it is required.  The only premise I can assume you have to draw this conclusion further down the line is that emoting is required for good roleplay.  It's great when it's used, but it isn't a requirement.  There are so many other commands for you to roleplay that don't involve emoting.

Bolded bit.

That leaves -HUGE- leeway on how you want the documentation to manifest but you cannot choose to ignore parts of the documentation/world just because you don't want to role play that.

I am advocating for visible role-play, but I also realize that people have different styles.  The important bit is that you keep the world in mind.

This is what I am hearing: "I don't want to be forced to role play anything I don't want.  I have my style and my style is just fine.  If someone gives me an IC problem I will handle it IC."

Hard to find fault in the above but I'm a prick so here goes:  This entire debate is centered around gemmed and how the general populace would view them.  It spawned from whether the population in a certain location would accept gemmed presence.

My declaration:  "The players of gemmed/known magickers need to include hate, fear and persecution in their day to day RP."

I've harped on emoting, forced on npcs or otherwise.  Why is emoting preferred (IMHO) to feels/thinks etc?  Because it builds a mood for the mundanes in the area.  It reinforces the world view.  It makes Armageddon a more believable place.

I think this sums it up:

As gemmed you also have karma (or the responsibility inherent with it).  You are choosing to bring magick into the role play equation.  You are forcing those around you to now include the magicker documentations in their role play.  Because you are bringing it in, it is on you to set the appropriate mood.  If you're sitting in the Gaj and no PC is even looking at your gemmed twice.  No one has reacted at all and you're all sitting around chatting about Lord Fancypants new trousers it is on YOU, the magicker, to remind everyone there that you are hated and feared.  If that's a sneer from the bartender, a glare from a crowd, fine.  If it's something else, fine.  But THAT it happens should not be up for debate.  You are bringing magick to life.  All aspects of magick.  Good and bad.  Comfortable and uncomfortable.

[spawnloser]

You're advocating visible RP?  Great.  Like I said, it's great when people do the occasional environmental emote, but you can't require it from people.  Some people just don't emote much and demanding that they do more on top of it?  Kinda silly, if you ask me.

[Lizzie]

I think the whole point, included some "do nots" in addition to some "dos."

In a nice uncoded list - if you are a gemmer:

DO enjoy using emotes to include your environment and its reaction to your gemmed existence.
DO enjoy refraining from emotes, if you are feeling unsure what to emote, or feel like none is needed.
DO enjoy including VNPCs in your emotes, and DO involved them, when you use them, in their reaction to your gemmed existence.
DO enjoy including NPCs in your emotes, IF you are familiar with the NPC's personal background and use it in your roleplay (such as, if you are a high-ranking Oashi gemmer who has his own personal NPC guard that you, the player, submitted to the staff and therefore know his background and personality).
DO expect, that the -majority- of VNPCs, and the environment, is UNfriendly toward gemmers. Not necessarily hostile, but unfriendly, in a very generic, unspecified sort of way.


DO NOT involve NPCs in your emotes, UNLESS you are familiar with that NPC's personal background and can/do RP it accordingly, and its reaction to the fact that it is in the presence of a gemmer.
DO NOT expect the environment, the VNPCs, the NPCs, or the PCs to be glad to be in the presence of a gemmer.
DO NOT expect the environment, the VNPCs, the NPCs, or the PCs to be disinterested, uncaring, or lacking any particular opinion about your character, the gemmer, being there.

So - don't EXPECT that the world will treat your gemmer nicely. In fact, EXPECT the opposite. And respond to that expectation according to however you feel your character would respond to it. If you choose to -create- the environment's response to your character's existence, then bear in mind, that the environment is not happy you're there, and create accordingly.

[Salt Merchant]

This could just as well apply to elves, 'rinthi and half-elves, I hope people realize.

Now you're all going to be horrible roleplayers if there are not stones flying at you, people sneering at you and militia beating you up on a regular basis.

Be warned.

[Spoon]

This could just as well apply to elves, 'rinthi and half-elves, I hope people realize.

Now you're all going to be horrible roleplayers if there are not stones flying at you, people sneering at you and militia beating you up on a regular basis.

Be warned.

I know the above is merely highlighting a point, but there's a pretty big difference in the docs saying 'elves are generally avoided by honest folks' and 'magickers are almost universally feared and hated'.

What people need to do to scorn gemmers is to scorn anyone who associates with them. What gemmers need to do is act like the social outcasts they are. One of my pet peeves is people who stand up for gemmers IG, not that there is anything wrong with the action as it's a perfectly reasonable choice. What annoys me is that they are most likely avoiding the IC consequences for their actions because there weren't enough PCs there at the time to scorn them. Let's do a anti-piracy style emotive pseudo-accurate slogan:

"You wouldn't stand up for a paedophile, would you?"

[racurtne]

I think that there may be a lot of private conversations where the gemmed are spoken of like the filthy abominations of nature that they are.

[hyzhenhok]

I think that there may be a lot of private conversations where the gemmed are spoken of like the filthy abominations of nature that they are.

There are. I'd like to see more, though.

However, I don't think magickers should be mandated or expected to play up the fact that they're a gemmer. The game world (through echoes) should, and other players should. I think the latter could be enhanced and improved through careful, tasteful implementation of the former.

[Chettaman]

Agreed. Magickers can play up there gemmed-ness. But shouldn't be expected to. Because if gemmed have to do it, why shouldn't the ungemmed have to do it. You could emote being the guy spitting across the room, or emote a VNPC spitting over a shoulder or something.

But honestly, what I think it is... It's sometimes hard to RP not liking someone for what they are and for no apparent reason. I think most people havn't got it into their minds yet that the gemmer staring at them could be giving them a disease with that very stare. It's easy to hate elves because stealing is annoying. It's a little harder to hate magickers because magick can be pretty cool.

that's just what I think.

[jhunter]

I think the whole point, included some "do nots" in addition to some "dos."

In a nice uncoded list - if you are a gemmer:

DO enjoy using emotes to include your environment and its reaction to your gemmed existence.
DO enjoy refraining from emotes, if you are feeling unsure what to emote, or feel like none is needed.
DO enjoy including VNPCs in your emotes, and DO involved them, when you use them, in their reaction to your gemmed existence.
DO enjoy including NPCs in your emotes, IF you are familiar with the NPC's personal background and use it in your roleplay (such as, if you are a high-ranking Oashi gemmer who has his own personal NPC guard that you, the player, submitted to the staff and therefore know his background and personality).
DO expect, that the -majority- of VNPCs, and the environment, is UNfriendly toward gemmers. Not necessarily hostile, but unfriendly, in a very generic, unspecified sort of way.


DO NOT involve NPCs in your emotes, UNLESS you are familiar with that NPC's personal background and can/do RP it accordingly, and its reaction to the fact that it is in the presence of a gemmer.
DO NOT expect the environment, the VNPCs, the NPCs, or the PCs to be glad to be in the presence of a gemmer.
DO NOT expect the environment, the VNPCs, the NPCs, or the PCs to be disinterested, uncaring, or lacking any particular opinion about your character, the gemmer, being there.

So - don't EXPECT that the world will treat your gemmer nicely. In fact, EXPECT the opposite. And respond to that expectation according to however you feel your character would respond to it. If you choose to -create- the environment's response to your character's existence, then bear in mind, that the environment is not happy you're there, and create accordingly.

Very good outline to follow