Quote from: eska on Today at 05:26:31 PMArmageddonMud has always been a harsh game. I don't see any reason to change Zalanthas into a meek world. There is perma-death and PK. There are rules. Just trust the staff.

This.

Amen!!!

I now see why veteran players tend to stay away from GDB. This thread started as discussing Changes to PK guidance and now we are talking about why we should bring or not mdesc hiding masks or why people PK.
As a over 20 years Armer, I had some PCs PKed in some shitty ways. It's Zalanthas and there's always death at the corner. So I learnt not to whine and to move on.
ArmageddonMud has always been a harsh game. I don't see any reason to change Zalanthas into a meek world. There is perma-death and PK. There are rules. Just trust the staff.

Quote from: Usiku on Today at 01:38:16 PMThis thread has gone sooo far off piste.. But anyway... just hypothetically, if we were ever going to implement mdesc covering masks, I feel like they could not and should not be infallible. Like there's always a chance other people might catch a glimpse of your eyes, hair, a tattoo and so on.. and you shouldn't know. That's how I would want it to be implemented anyway. But we have a whole trello board of coding backlog already, so you know, pipe dreams.

The answer to this question is Peek

This thread has gone sooo far off piste.. But anyway... just hypothetically, if we were ever going to implement mdesc covering masks, I feel like they could not and should not be infallible. Like there's always a chance other people might catch a glimpse of your eyes, hair, a tattoo and so on.. and you shouldn't know. That's how I would want it to be implemented anyway. But we have a whole trello board of coding backlog already, so you know, pipe dreams.

To be clear this has nothing to due with players being inherently selfish but rather people have difference of opinions to what good and bad is for the scenes and for game. I too doubt few players and staff come here to purposely grief but their actions may still be interpreted differently by others or have unexpected harmful outcomes.

All I am saying is when it comes to a new powerful mechanic like anonymity, both rules and gameplay need to be taken into account. Some events, both good and bad, have been rare in the past because people cannot escape IC consequences very easily. This may unintentionally change that with unexpected outcomes. Again, even then I admit we may need more anonymity abilities at this point, but I still think it should handled with time limited skills that require time to improve.

I have experienced everything from players/groups having access to weapons or items they should not have (and staff EVENTUALLY stepped in and removed the item), to people Mortally Wounding someone in a public room, then performing the kill in another room so that the log shows they were killed in a 'better area', to people leading their would be attackers into Red Storm Alleys or other "bad areas" so that NPCs will help them out.

The simple fact is that the code won't matter, and a help file won't matter. It will be up to staff doing the things they're promising (not playing PCs themselves, actually observing things in game, and being available to intervene when things are needed). It only takes one player to "do whatever the game's code LETS them do" to ruin people's stories. And staff's only recourse is to punish the one doing the abusing (who will just use a VPN and make a new account), while the 10 days played PC's owner has to deal with it.

I don't think the help file will change anything. I don't think "requiring a wish up" will change anything. And having your mdesc hidden will just allow people to feel better about NOT killing immediately, because we can't shake the idea that "Perma-death PK is allowed" seems to mean "Fortnite in text"

I understand why some players feel that a majority of others are inherently selfish players or that staff are the same way. I am looking forward to doing my part to prove that peoples' time and energy will be valued in Season 1. Creating memorable rivalries and scenes is my favorite part of this game that is very unique, because of the stakes involved.

QuoteI'm thinking in the future I'll make a post about playing sponsored roles and antags in a way that's fun for the players involved. I know I haven't played many of these in Armageddon, but my time as a Dungeon Master for around 10+ years gives me a good idea I'd like to think, it's very much in the same area of the DM vs Players debate. And I just think it'll be a good discussion to have because it's important to see other perspectives on these things, especially staff.

@Kavrick That sounds like a lovely idea.

I both agree with Dumbstruck and Usuki. The average Armageddon player is kinder than you think, you just need a little more faith in people. But at the same time, I does only take a small handful of people to ruin the game, doubly so if you get those players in a high karma role or a sponsored role, which I have seen both happen and the consequences of it.

The addition of the PK rules is good because as long as the rules don't exist you'll get players who specifically look for opportunities to pk other players just for the fun of it. Even if people deny these players exist, PvP is it's own reward and the popularity of PVP games proves this. Not only this, I've actually seen in the past a good few long-time community members in this forum admit that they enjoy killing other players, I'm obviously not going to name names but I think it's more a less a fact that people do play Armageddon specifically to ruin the game for other players, whether this is from being a borderline griefing Pker or a sponsored leader who doesn't put the enjoyment of the players who play their subordinates first.

I'm thinking in the future I'll make a post about playing sponsored roles and antags in a way that's fun for the players involved. I know I haven't played many of these in Armageddon, but my time as a Dungeon Master for around 10+ years gives me a good idea I'd like to think, it's very much in the same area of the DM vs Players debate. And I just think it'll be a good discussion to have because it's important to see other perspectives on these things, especially staff.

Quote from: Usiku on Today at 07:31:09 AMthe vast majority of players are not griefers and are not out just to harm other players. The griefers are rare and few and far between but their actions stick in our memories and cloud our experiences so much more.

Two different points here.

The first point  is that the community has different definitions of what a griefer is exactly. Someone who PK like a psychopath, using lame excuses to go after newbie or non-combat characters not directly related to the conflict was not a griefer about four week ago. For example, raiders and muggers are not griefers in my books, especially if they are only looting virtual goods but not everyone agrees. Ultimately, the majority of people do only care about their stories and that includes people in staff. And to be perfectly clear there is nothing wrong with this either, no one should be forced to play something that find unfun, they should play as they want as long as it is within the rules and coded framework of the game.

The second point is that when rules, code or lore are at times ambiguous or left to interpretation (eg. backstabbing animals, frequency of steal mechanics), it has  lead to staff intervention at some point. This has been historically toxic for the game, because staff are people/former players of this game and have their own biases. People naturally side with those they like regardless of the reason. This is just being human, sure does suck the person on the other side and the game in general but its just reality and this is historically what has happened.

Something like anonymity granting items or skills removes the ability for players to decide what appropriate action to take in response to IC behavior.  It is a very powerful tool in the hands of someone who understands the gameplay mechanics. Unless staff intervenes or players cheat can be impossible to identify these people.  Regardless of the reasons or outcome of these interventions, these are potentially poisonous situations for the game. It will only take a couple semi-active mugger/raider, who aren't griefers in my books, to potentially force a toxic situation that will hurt the game. 

Again, despite that,  i fully see a need for anonymity to promote conflict but it needs to be handled with care and have well defined limitations. This isn't a Mush so both rules and gameplay mechanics need to be taken in consideration when making these types changes. Players supported by game mechanics should continue to have a role in determining appropriate action for IC behavior, even if that unfortunately means that the entire mud is after one lone raider who mugged a few coins off someone.