QuoteYou're also referring to a world/time where people had first 12 special apps a year (no more than one a month!) then around 2010, 3 special apps a year, now 2 special apps a year. So you're conflating this with when people had literally 600% of the special apps per year compared to now, so even with the same player numbers and people special app'ing 'literally as fast as humanly possible', you will see a 500% DECREASE of special apps sheerly by the numbers of what players are allowed annually. It is not fear to special app, it is availability of the option, which has curtailed those numbers.

In response to:

QuoteThere's description here of the special application process, but at some point players became very averse to the idea of special applications outside of rolecalls.  Please keep in mind that these are not bad things.  If you'd like to play something else, don't assume that you just all out can't because of karma.  Use special applications, they're exactly what you're describing here where you just ask a 'DM' to play something.

I'm not sure what you're responding to.  I said to be sure to use special applications and not feel like something was beyond you just because it required a special application.  I didn't do the conflation here.

Edited, because I'm probably coming off like I'm picking a fight:
What I'm trying to say is that special applications became a thing that no one wanted to use.  We made a change to karma that broadened its access (by that I mean every point opened up a ton of options), and that is being drawn back to each point being more limited in what it grants, but also allows the special application to grant similar access to before.  So use it.  If it's something where there's a consistent trend of people running out of special applications, that can be addressed.   But right now it looks like they're trying to handle specific things regarding karma changes, and we need to use the system in place to the fullest.  So when someone is worried about access, be sure to use your special applications, so that this can be assessed.

This is not me saying everything is all hunky dory, because I don't think everything was all hunky dory with what we've just shifted away from, either.  This is a more complicated game problem than just reward and punishment, or access or non-access, or availability, or what populations are possible.  It's one system to try and mix all concerns of that nature, which means it will be naturally flawed from the get-go because of all the different use cases it has to cover.  But we have not found any good way to address all of those things in any other way, and more often than not, have different groups of people holding firm on different stances instead of suggesting viable alternatives that address all of those concerns.

So...my statement was to make sure that the tools that ARE here are used.  Use them well.  With this backwards shift, we'll need to use the previous system of special applications whenever possible for roles we want that are currently beyond our reach.  At the very least, it means we know we're going after a role that may be rejected, instead of having the idea that because it's not a special application, we should never be turned down for any one of those concerns.
I'm not sure what you're responding to.  I said to be sure to use special applications and not feel like something was beyond you just because it required a special application.  I didn't do the conflation here.

If you could link it to leading a wagon/argosy through a storm that might be a fun way of making the standard Byn escort activities a bit more crunchy.

That said however, I have no idea how you could implement it from a code point of view.

Upending entire systems because 10% of people (or less, really, since that's just 10% of people who bother specapping) did a thing is the entire theme of this thread.

Quote from: Halaster on April 16, 2024, 09:37:27 AMKarma has been the 'necessary evil' for like 25-30 years.  And I agree it's not ideal, but it's the best we've come up with to date.  It's the least-bad option presented so far.

Admitting you have a problem is the first step to recovery.

To be perfectly clear though, this is not staff's fault, but rather an issue with the entire community.

Again, the three tiered karma system was probably the first attempt to deal with the problems of karma while allowing people to play the classes more fairly. However, it is a very a very difficult system to balance out properly with every class and option potentially needing its own timer.  Unfortunately, as a community we saw complaints slowly whittle the karma regeneration portion of that system causing it to be unable to limit the high powered roles properly. We saw arguments from 'trustworthy' people who felt they should be allowed to play high powered roles over and over, and mentioned how they would stop playing for months until karma regenerated again so they could play those high powered roles constantly, many of those trustworthy people now gone or banned though.

During all this time many of us said nothing. Even myself haven't really bothered with it, despite this issue having significant impact on the game. Since it doesn't effect me I've often find myself ignoring it or glossing over the threads. I almost didn't even post anything this time either while celebrating the new elf red desert road. 

It is what it is, but I think we as a community we should just take note of it and discuss the system again after a season or so. I do believe that overtime this system does become a slow acting poison to the overall game so it will need to be address at some point.

Personally,

When I'm walking around with a few other players, leading them, I tend to emote "emote heads in this direction", "emote turns west, and heads along the road in that direction."

When I'm leading players, I slow down how often I move from room to room.  When I'm solo, I spamwalk :|


Perhaps it could be changed so that the sheer number of people following you should increase the "before" delay in movement, and echo only from the leader PC.

example:

I currently have 4 other players following me, including a NPC guard.

>north
You start to head north.
(3 second delay)
You move north.

This would only come into affect when moving in groups of 5+ followers.

Did SoI change their movement at some point? When I played, it was more just that the delay on movement was before. So you type north, and you'd begin leaving north with an echo.

So long as you could still "spam walk" I'd be for it. Gives you a chance to catch someone with a combat command as they're trying to leave, instead of them being able to move the instant they want to, avoiding RP and consequences.

Though threaten does this as well, it still requires you to catch someone in the 2seconds between rooms.

Quote from: mansa on April 16, 2024, 06:30:23 PM

Quote from: dumbstruck on April 16, 2024, 12:49:05 PM...
You're also referring to a world/time where people had first 12 special apps a year (no more than one a month!) then around 2010, 3 special apps a year, now 2 special apps a year. So you're conflating this with when people had literally 600% of the special apps per year compared to now, so even with the same player numbers and people special app'ing 'literally as fast as humanly possible', you will see a 500% DECREASE of special apps sheerly by the numbers of what players are allowed annually. It is not fear to special app, it is availability of the option, which has curtailed those numbers.

I was curious about this, and I found this post:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,33596.msg412036.html#msg412036

Which basically said 10% of the people who applied for special applications applied for 30% of all special applications.  It was changed because a small section of the population was producing most of the work for staff.  Most people applied for 3 or less special applications.

Yep. And 10% of the playerbase cut down what everyone else could play by 500%, rather than staff just talking to the people who caused it to be an issue, they removed 80% of access for 100% of the players.

Sucks when it ripples still, no?

Could have just talked to those people or flagged their accounts as no more than one every 3 months or whatever and fixed it, but instead, no one gets access.

Quote from: dumbstruck on April 16, 2024, 12:49:05 PM...
You're also referring to a world/time where people had first 12 special apps a year (no more than one a month!) then around 2010, 3 special apps a year, now 2 special apps a year. So you're conflating this with when people had literally 600% of the special apps per year compared to now, so even with the same player numbers and people special app'ing 'literally as fast as humanly possible', you will see a 500% DECREASE of special apps sheerly by the numbers of what players are allowed annually. It is not fear to special app, it is availability of the option, which has curtailed those numbers.

I was curious about this, and I found this post:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,33596.msg412036.html#msg412036

Which basically said 10% of the people who applied for special applications applied for 30% of all special applications.  It was changed because a small section of the population was producing most of the work for staff.  Most people applied for 3 or less special applications.

Quote from: Armaddict on April 16, 2024, 12:39:16 PM

Quote from: Delusion on April 15, 2024, 08:47:23 PMWhat's the purpose of karma? It's like it's there because it's always been there.

A normal approach for any roleplaying game is for a player to ask the GM if they can play a role. If it suits the game, the GM can say yes. If that was the existing rule instead of having karma, what argument would you make to introduce karma instead? If it didn't already exist, if a GM came and said they wanted a rule for playing wizards and giants in their world with giant insects in it, where GMs rate the quality of players, give them a number saying how good or bad they are, and tell them to wait longer than it would take to go through college to get a good number, their players would probably tell them to touch grass.

I realize Armageddon exists in this void where it's often run like nobody has any life outside the game. It's weird and it's a problem. Karma's only part of it but scrapping it would be a start.

I don't even play karma roles despite having had points so this isn't personal.

I just wanted to say here, because it's relevant; in ye olden days, there was still Karma, but there was a LOT of leeway with special applications.  You could apply for really strange roles, custom skillsets, and all manner of things.  Special applications were common, and your 'actual karma value' was not a major hurdle in playing what you want to.

There's description here of the special application process, but at some point players became very averse to the idea of special applications outside of rolecalls.  Please keep in mind that these are not bad things.  If you'd like to play something else, don't assume that you just all out can't because of karma.  Use special applications, they're exactly what you're describing here where you just ask a 'DM' to play something.

You're also referring to a world/time where people had first 12 special apps a year (no more than one a month!) then around 2010, 3 special apps a year, now 2 special apps a year. So you're conflating this with when people had literally 600% of the special apps per year compared to now, so even with the same player numbers and people special app'ing 'literally as fast as humanly possible', you will see a 500% DECREASE of special apps sheerly by the numbers of what players are allowed annually. It is not fear to special app, it is availability of the option, which has curtailed those numbers.

Quote from: Delusion on April 15, 2024, 08:47:23 PMWhat's the purpose of karma? It's like it's there because it's always been there.

A normal approach for any roleplaying game is for a player to ask the GM if they can play a role. If it suits the game, the GM can say yes. If that was the existing rule instead of having karma, what argument would you make to introduce karma instead? If it didn't already exist, if a GM came and said they wanted a rule for playing wizards and giants in their world with giant insects in it, where GMs rate the quality of players, give them a number saying how good or bad they are, and tell them to wait longer than it would take to go through college to get a good number, their players would probably tell them to touch grass.

I realize Armageddon exists in this void where it's often run like nobody has any life outside the game. It's weird and it's a problem. Karma's only part of it but scrapping it would be a start.

I don't even play karma roles despite having had points so this isn't personal.

I just wanted to say here, because it's relevant; in ye olden days, there was still Karma, but there was a LOT of leeway with special applications.  You could apply for really strange roles, custom skillsets, and all manner of things.  Special applications were common, and your 'actual karma value' was not a major hurdle in playing what you want to.

There's description here of the special application process, but at some point players became very averse to the idea of special applications outside of rolecalls.  Please keep in mind that these are not bad things.  If you'd like to play something else, don't assume that you just all out can't because of karma.  Use special applications, they're exactly what you're describing here where you just ask a 'DM' to play something.