Some thoughts about independent things

[CrafterWoman]

I'm reading a lot of talk about the game economy. Lots of good discussion, but no solutions that will keep things in check. Here's what I see as -potential- issues (they aren't always issues, and that in itself is an issue)

1) the classes go through phases of popularity. Sometimes you just have too many clothworkers. Sometimes not enough. Etc. etc. etc.

2) Way too much reliance on the NPC shops. This is the biggest issue I think.

3) Twinkage. This also goes through phases. Sometimes there's a few who spam-craft and fill up the NPC shops the first hour after reboot. Sometimes there are none like that.

A solution, which would need to be done all at the same time for it to work:

1) instead of limiting the NPC to only accept 5 of each item, limit the number of items any given PC can sell to him per reboot. So clothworker can only sell 2 purple scarves and 2 green pairs of linen pants, whatever. But the OTHER clothworkers can also sell 2 of each, no matter how many or few clothworkers there are.

2) At random times throughout the week, reset the npc's list back down to nothing except what he normally loads up with. Once the crafter has hit his alloted amount of things he is allowed to sell, it won't matter if the list is empty again. The NPC still won't buy more of each item from him until next reboot.

3) When you're a buyer looking to buy something that is craftable by someone other than "just" a merchant house, look for PCs to trade with FIRST. Don't run to the shops right away if you're looking for something that a PC can make.

4) when you're a crafter looking to sell something you made, look for the PCs to sell to FIRST. Don't dump everything you have on the shops just because they're convenient.

What these things will accomplish:

1) Encourage more PC - to - PC interaction. That's always a good thing.
2) Encourage crafters to take things in trade instead of being stuck with sids all the time that they might not always be able to use. Some of the things crafters want or need to do their work can't be purchased at any shop.
3) Encourage buyers to offer things to trade rather than always handing out sids. This would allow clanned people like guards and house aides and such to keep more of their sids, but get rid of some of the crap they have stockpiled in their barracks. Because one house guard's crappy piece of blocky stone is a stonecrafter's treasure.
4) It will make independent crafters less financially wealthy, without keeping them from getting the -things- they need to do what they do. Less sids, more stuff to keep going, and still enough sids to eat and drink and stable their mounts.
5) It will make clanned people who are stuck with a salary and a schedule have more sids saved up, and give them something to do on their off time other than just run to the shop, sell stuff, and run to a tavern and sit there til dawn.

Discuss.

[CrafterWoman]

Oh include independent hunters too. I forgot that. They should have the same NPC limitations for selling hides and skins and food to shops. They should also try trading what they skin and forage to crafters of all kinds, employed or independent.

[moab]

What would happen if most of the NPC shops were dusted and PCs were able to staff their own shops - which they sorta can via changing their long desc, anyway.

The bald clothworker sits on a mat here, watching passerby.

I wonder what the impact would be.  *ponder*

[sjanimal]

Thank you Crafterwoman.

I agree 100%.  This is the best solution I have seen so far.  

It's funny, a lot of people would rather buy and sell to NPC than PC.  This is terrible.  I always go to PCs first, it's more fun.  I hope other people will too.

[mansa]

Why don't you make it so that the crafter does -not- make a profit, selling to NPCs?

Well...at least...to the merchant house NPCs.

[sheep]

I personally prefer selling to other PCs; I like the interaction, but there arn't always PCs willing to buy what you are selling. As for limiting the players...why would a merchant turn down a person who's offering to sell him/her goods that could be resold for a profit? How does the merchant know that there are going to be other crafters willing to sell them that same item?

[Bestatte]

I'd say that's where realism vs. playability should kick in. It's not all that realistic for a merchant NPC to only buy 5 duskhorn pelts to supply an entire city filled with armorcrafters, is it? But - he does. And no one buys them. That isn't realistic either. But that's how it is right now. Very -un-realistic, but far more realistic than it was before, when anyone could sell an unlimited quantify of everything to every NPC in the game.

Unfortunately that limit tipped things over from unrealistic, to "not nearly as playable" - because if SuperTwinkHunter shows up at 8:02 EST on Saturday night and unloads last week's pack full of 5 duskhorn pelts, 5 gurth shells, 5 this, 5 that, 5 the other thing, and 5 of every fucking herb in the game, then every single other person who walks into that shop is going to be stuck with "Sorry, I have too many of those" until the following saturday. That is neither realistic NOR playable.

[Vettrock]

I always try to sell to a PC rather than an NPC, but especially for those of us who don't play during peak hours, it is often difficult to find PCs that will buy what you are selling.  If you are a hunter you can pack you extra stuff on your kank, but I really hate walking around loaded down, and once I get to the point where I have trouble loading my hides on a kank, I have to sell 'em.  

Also I can't get on right after the reboot to sell all, so sometimes I carry around the same skins for weeks at a time when someone gets on and sells 5 of them every reboot.

[Armaddict]

It's a matter of convenience for me.  I can go and sell that helmet, really quick, to Salarr, before I have to report back in for schedule, log off, whatever.

Selling to a PC can be time consuming, frustrating and grating.  So...no.  I actually don't like it.

[jhunter]

I agree with Armadict, I usually go by convienience...whatever is easier at the moment will  determine who I will sell/trade with.

Besides, it's a real pain in the ass to carry around something until you find a pc interested in buying it (if you ever do) and then they'll only take it if they are totally screwing you on the price for it. Sorry, I'm just not going to sell this hide that I risked my life for that's worth a good 75 'sid to you for 20 'sid...eat shit.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Interesting thought, this thread.  What if the shops owned by the major merchant Houses, Salarr, Kadius, and Kurac, purchased items at far, far less than their worth?

It doesn't seem like an unreasonable thought, to my way of thinking.  Why does Kadius need to buy hides for anything resembling a reasonable price?  It has hunters that bring in scores of hides; I see no incentive for them to cut into potential profits by paying out 'good' prices for stuff that they already pay their own Hunters to bring in.

It's sort of like places that trade used CDs or books, but also sell new ones.  They don't need your stuff, it's just a good way to get you into the store, and they can pinch a good bit of profit off of a CD they buy back from you for $2 and then sell for $10.

[Armaddict]

They already do so, if you haven't noticed.

[CrafterWoman]

Interesting thought, this thread.  What if the shops owned by the major merchant Houses, Salarr, Kadius, and Kurac, purchased items at far, far less than their worth?

It doesn't seem like an unreasonable thought, to my way of thinking.  Why does Kadius need to buy hides for anything resembling a reasonable price?  It has hunters that bring in scores of hides; I see no incentive for them to cut into potential profits by paying out 'good' prices for stuff that they already pay their own Hunters to bring in.

It's sort of like places that trade used CDs or books, but also sell new ones.  They don't need your stuff, it's just a good way to get you into the store, and they can pinch a good bit of profit off of a CD they buy back from you for $2 and then sell for $10.

They already do sell things for far less than they're worth. In fact, many of the things I sell to them are things that I make - and many of those things I get LESS than what I paid to buy the materials to make them in the first place. Consider the crafter, -especially- a newer crafter - he might be able to skin his own hides, or forage some of his own stones (not all - some of them aren't forageable to my knowledge and can only be purchased from NPCs).

So sure - I have 5 rhino hides, and I have to tan them. I ruin 4 of them, tan one. I then go to make that one into a set of rhino greaves - and ruin it. Back to square one.

Eventually I get pretty good with my skill. Now I have 5 rhinor hides, ruin only 2, and manage to make 2 sets of greaves with the remaining three. And I can sell them for a whopping 28 sids per pair at the Salarr shop.

In the meantime - all the time it took me to hunt, the risk I took, the damage to my armor when I got smacked around by the rhino - the thirst and hunger I incurred - I've paid out at -least- 200 sids in bandages, armor repair, and water. And got 54 sids back for my efforts.

It's already set up this way, no need to "fix" what isn't broken.

As far as "convenience" is concerned - oh well, sucks to be you, and sucks to be me too, because if it isn't convenient for people to buy directly from me, they're gonna just have to pay extra buying the -exact same shit I just made and sold to Salarr- and pay twice what they would've paid me to buy it direct.

That's why I suggested people go to the PCs FIRST. Did I say "don't buy from the shops?" Nope, I didn't say that. I said go to the PCs FIRST. Go to the bar where you KNOW you always go. Ask if there's a crafter around, or a hunter around, or ask if anyone knows one who can get to the Sanctuary before "late night." If no, then go for the shop. If so, you just created a need, and the supplier delivers the supply, and everyone's happy, and there's lots of fun RP.

But none of this will work if people aren't willing to try interacting with each other instead of mindlessly running to NPC merchants like mice looking for cheese in a maze. If that was the kind of game I wanted to play, I'd play some moronic one-shooter graphics game.

Are you people suggesting that you aren't willing to give up 5 minutes of inconvenience for the opportunity to roleplay in a roleplaying game? Shame on you if so.

[Armaddict]

Wow.  I didn't know selling to shops wasn't Role-play.  Since you know...going to an armor shop to sell or buy armor from the premiere supplier in the known world is OUT OF CHARACTER.

What I'm saying is that actively seeking out someone to do this things that is easily provided for by a well-known, well-trusted house that is much more guarunteed to be quality.  Why would my fella go from tavern to tavern, asking each fella he sees, "Hey, do you make or buy armor?  No?  How about you?  No?  You?  No?  Oh shit.  Next tavern."  After all three taverns, "Damn.  Not a single one?  I could've just went to the shop.  Oh...but then I wouldn't have had to go through all this trouble of finding someone who will renegotiate prices based on their own desire to make money, since they are by themself and survive off my -one- sale for a little while.

Sorry, but I think I'm role-playing just fine.  The IC logic is profound.

You know.  We should -all- just limit our interaction with NPC's.  Because...that's not role-play.  In the least.  And this is a role-playing game.  Find all the PC's you can.

[Armaddict]

Here's an idea I just had.

Since this is a ROLE-PLAYING game, how about instead of asking people to stop buying from npc's and -find- PC's to buy and sell from and to on the GDB, you actually go through the ROLE-PLAY of playing a businessman/woman who actively works to gain business away from those monopoly merchant houses, and ROLE-PLAY in order to get those people to like and trust doing business with you more.

Our PC's can't be dumbasses who just decide the merchant houses are evil.  They're dominant for a reason.  Make some business relationships.  Be polite to your customers.  Get them to spread your name for your good service.  Maybe then you'll have a friend who spreads your name around, and...*gasp*...you'll get more business.

I had a friend do this with an armorcrafter.  He was independent, and he had nobility coming to -him- instead of Salarr for his quality work and fair prices, as well as dedication towards getting their order done quickly.

The GDB is not the place to ask people to change the way their PC's think.

[CrafterWoman]

Armaddict, what part of this did you not understand?

That's why I suggested people go to the PCs FIRST. Did I say "don't buy from the shops?" Nope, I didn't say that. I said go to the PCs FIRST.

Did you know that there are hundreds of craftable items that are not made by any of the merchant houses or loaded up on Saturdays by any NPC merchant? I'm guessing you knew that.

Did you know that those *particular* items are only available at those shops if a crafter sells them to them? I'm guessing you knew that too.

Did you know - that if you were hoping to buy one of those *particular* items, you could probably get a much better price if you went directly to the crafter who crafted it? I'm guessing you also knew that.

Did you know - that if you're not a hunter, and need hides, you could get hides for a LOT cheaper by going directly to a hunter PC than you can buy buying them from a shop? My bet's on your knowing this as well.

And - here's a secret, shh don't tell anyone. There's this skill, called Psi. And another one called Contact. You can *gasp* contact your local crafter or hunter - or at least *try* to do this...and attempt to set up a meeting with him on your day off to buy one of those things that they make, that are *not* available at a shop unless that crafter sells it to the shop.

Oooh...IC info! Enjoy, it's a gift.

[Armaddict]

Yes.  Yes, I knew all that.

As I said...make your business IC.  If you're publicizing, yes, you may have people come to you.  But I wouldn't expect too much unless you're working for it.  Which is what -I- said.  Don't ask people to change the way they're doing things here.

Find a way to make them think it's a good idea IC.  I wouldn't expect anyone to sit around and hold onto that item they need to sell for money while you're not logged on, though.

I really...-really-, fail to see how going to PC's first is going to solve the problem, though.

[CrafterWoman]

See, that's why in my first post, I said- if you're a seller, stop running immediately to the NPC shops, and start trying to find PC customers FIRST. Please don't assume that I'm complaining about having trouble making money. I'm not. At all. I'm having trouble getting PC interaction as a crafter, because all the potential customers say "Oh no thanks" and then run to the shop and buy the shit I just sold the NPC merchant because the PC said he wasn't interested.

It's just a total waste. My PC is getting very slowly wealthy, and I'm bored stiff. I'd rather have some great RP interaction than have tons of sids in the bank, and I'm sure the NPC merchant would be glad to get rid of me so I don't keep pestering her to buy my stuff all the time.

But it has to be a two-way deal. As a seller, I NEED to drum up business and get people interested in buying these non-Salarr and non-Kadius things from ME instead of from the shop that REsells them. As a buyer, you need to make some attempt to buy that generic bauble or craftable scarf from the crafter. If one side fails, there's no deal made, and we're right back where we started.

That's why I put this here on the GDB. To offer one possible solution to the perceived "problem" of inappropriate spread of wealth among the game.

[Armaddict]

See, this is why I'm in such disagreement.  I don't -see- inappropriate spread of wealth.  Things are fine.  The ones who survive while gathering materials get their crafting up, hire on helpers, continue selling, have deals with houses for them to sell their things to them, have them resell them so that they get distributed more widely, everyone makes money off the deal, as opposed to one person getting the lump sum, and, if that crafter lives through their material gathering, their political setbacks, and plots to -take- their money, they have a nice little independent business going on.

You know, just like the little independent businesses all over the known world.  They don't make as much as the merchants houses, but hey, they're small.  They don't -need- to make that much.  If their quality is good, they start to contend with the house, gaining more of a customer base, which is more loyal, and you've just successfully worked up a -crafter- character.

You don't think the person who lives long enough to establish themselves -deserves- to make a little more money than most, as an independent?  They're effectively starting up their -own- business.

Things seem completely fine to me.

[sjanimal]

I don't have anything to contribute to this argument beyond what was already said, but I still agree with CraftWoman 100%.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

While some things are fine, I still wanna see more danger outside. I think in the past that the staff tried to make the danger come from PCs as opposed to NPCs. Well, I don't like that move. Make it dangerous, and write the programs for the creatures to make them realistic.

[Dresan]

I like craftwoman's Idea....still it won't solve the biggest problem that i see in Arm, slightly slow it down but not stop it.  Whether your in a clan or an independent everyone can still hoarde mass Sid, they're aren't enough money sinks in the game...I'd like to see prices double (maybe even triple) all around.  If this happen the haggle skill would have to be twiked down to maybe down only 1/3 of the price instead of half.  Also story should keep buying at the price they currently buy now.  I think people playing Indies might like the increased challenge, i know i would.

[Delirium]

Double prices and you see a really annoying trend that many MUDS suffer from - price creep. People make a bunch of money, so they jury-rig it by making money sinks - which only results in placing more emphasis on making money, getting money, and hurts the little people that don't twink and don't spam. If you want a functioning economy, you have to start from the bottom up, not make 'quick fixes'.

To add on:

There are some things I simply hawk off to NPCs - I will admit to that. I know the NPC will want it, I need to get rid of weight, there is little use for it to PCs. However.. I have found that it is immensely more enjoyable and rewarding to try and trade as much as possible with PCs. Do you have to limit yourself to trading only with one or the other? Of course not. Is it more likely to draw you into plots and at the very least, cause you to develop relations of one sort or another with a whole host of characters, if you trade with PCs instead of NPCs? Y'damn skippy.

PCs have a lot more to offer than NPCs ever do. I suggest to anyone that they at least give it a try. Do I suggest that they wait around with packs-full of heavy stuff if they can't find a PC buyer and they need to sell? Hell no. Do I suggest that they make an effort to go to PCs first? Yeah. I've found that it is more than worth it.

[Agent_137]

Double prices and you see a really annoying trend that many MUDS suffer from - price creep. People make a bunch of money, so they jerry-rig fix it by making money sinks - which only results in placing more emphasis on making money, getting money, and hurts the little people that don't twink and don't spam. If you want a functioning economy, you have to start from the bottom up, not make 'quick fixes'.

A-motherfucking-men


As was already stated by an Imm, at current prices a well role-played indie (except merchant) will not be blingin' all over the place. Ergo, if you up prices, all those well done hunters are gonna get reamed.

[spawnloser]

Did you know that there are hundreds of craftable items that are not made by any of the merchant houses or loaded up on Saturdays by any NPC merchant? I'm guessing you knew that.

Did you know that those *particular* items are only available at those shops if a crafter sells them to them? I'm guessing you knew that too.

Did you know - that if you were hoping to buy one of those *particular* items, you could probably get a much better price if you went directly to the crafter who crafted it? I'm guessing you also knew that.

Did you know - that if you're not a hunter, and need hides, you could get hides for a LOT cheaper by going directly to a hunter PC than you can buy buying them from a shop? My bet's on your knowing this as well.

You see, anonymous person that thinks her idea is the only solution...the problem with your idea is that PCs want to pay what they think the item is worth.  I have played someone with clothworking that made an entire outfit that the shops would offer (for the lot) 750 'sid.  I could get twice that with haggling.  PC's didn't want to pay more than 100.  I got all the PC-to-PC interaction when I tried telling them that they were offering too little...and then I went and sold it for a respectable amount.  Keep in mind that I was still, after haggling, getting less money than the shop would get when the person went to buy it there.