Some thoughts about independent things

[Agent_137]

hah, well those pcs you dealt with got screwed, huh? good for them. I hope everyone isn't that stupid.

[Dresan]

Let's face it, people who are going to twink will twink no matter what,  it's easy to make sid now and people were still stealing tavern furniture to furnish their apartment.  You won't be hurting anyone at the bottom by doubling the prices,  it just means it will be harder to horde sid, harder to be an indepentant not impossible just will take alot longer to get the best that sallarr or kadius sells.  People in clans will still be safe financially, 300-500 sid every ic month, will by a decent bracer (If armour ain't included in the clan package).

                       Icly people in Zalanthas have one thing one their mind Survival and Survival=Sid.  I believe making Sid more scarce then it is will not only make the game more realistic but more enjoyable.  More people wanting it means more people taking risks.  This does not mean they start killing ever animal in sight (not everyone is a hunter), it might mean they start selling clan secret, consider banditry.

                         With prices being so high it will be extremely favorable to find a Pc to do it for cheaper...however this might now mean that if X is selling armour a salarr employ sees this, X will have to deal with the wrath of salarr.  More conflict more is OOCly good.  Not to mention there are currently alot of items that people never buy...when is the last time a wooden sword seemed like a good buy, with higher prices maybe they could be.   Merchant houses know you want and need thier things, thier prices should be dictated by how much a PC can make.

[Agent_137]

So you propose that we jack up prices to make it harder for twinks to twink, and those who roleplay independents well (scraping by) can just go get screwed?


how about, not?


I mean, ya got some good thoughts there, trying to solve some problems and improve some shit, but you are missing the consequences.

[Bug]

I'd like to add. Its very nice seeing all those crafters and hunters and skinners and you-name-it, but what about the other players?

The not-twinks who live by contract or a blade or a spell? Who fairly get hired and perform their duties, to be paid a *normal* salary?

Some of the suggestions, like doubling prices, are obviously ignoring us, the not-so-money-able folk.

-me

edit: to reply to Economy from a "consumer's" perspective - Stores are cheap. Untill anyone else proves me wrong, so will I think. All those crafters are just sid-hungry bastards who only steal fair business from the Noble/Merchant houses.

If a maker is to make himself a name, be creative. You got the money, now make it work. Pay people to tell others about you. Give simple items out for free just to show off your quality, and to get the name rolling. And damnit, talk with the imms if you must and pay that little extra 10k you had in your bank account to get NPC hawkers to walk around and announce you when you come to the town to set up your shop for a week of rest from all your hunts and travels. If you're new its still easy - set yourself up outside shops and taverns, and suggest your wares there. If you're an arms/armor crafter, go talk with the mercs to see if they will allow you to sell your stuff to their members.

Its not that difficult, and is great to roleplay.

In character, I'd still go to the stores, because i wouldn't trust the PC's. They have to prove themselves to me, claims of "oh, my things are cheaper, of course" just do NOT cut it.

[Dresan]

To recap:

            -All clanned PC will be fine...less money in the bank, less stuff for some but no dying of hunger&thirst here

        -Twinks will twink whether we lower the prices, keep them the same or increase them...Twinking is a whole other issue all together... No matter what you do there will be twinks.

        -I say double but it might be more, maybe less, basically if people (and i think independent set the standard) are can make say 10 sid a day(without twinking) well then water should cost 2 sid a day, water another 2 sid , material or arrows another 2 sid, mics another 1...maybe save 3 sid a day.


                My idea effects idependent the most.... you don't need to twink to get alot of sid in the bank...For example in one of AC's post she mentioned that she had to make her character avoid dead bodies (which she admitted was ICly odd) or it would just be too easy.   One of my recent character was an idependent too.  With one easy and safe runs i could make 200 + sid, it wasn't a twink just a decent trade route, i almost never had to actually do it because i could walk around town and in one way or another Sid would fall in my lap.   By doubling the prices, people won't have to go to great lengths to scrap by (or turn a blind eye to Sid), the world would be harsh enough that they just are.

                        This might solve a couple of other issues for one it would make a clan job more sought after since it would be real easy to starve to death, two no more commoners out coining nobles, a no more hording of sid, and a few others i might be forgetting.  
                             
                      You know i want to roleplay ICly realistically however it is hard when i just walk around the town and find sid on the floor or it shoved in my face.

[Vettrock]

I don't think raising the prices is the answer, it is just going to make it much more difficult starting out, and I don't think it will have the desired effect.  Basically the way I see the problem, starting out as a crafter or hunter you need a lot of cash, because you suck at everything.  Most of my characters in the first couple of days of playtime, are very concerned about money.  It is a matter of if they will run out of money before they get good enough to kill anything bigger than a gimpka rat, or run out of money before they make anything worth selling, and won't be able to buy the raw materials anymore.  Then at some point they get to the break even point where their skills have advanced, and at that point they can make money, and shortly after that they get to the point where its not even very difficult to make money.

Basically the root of the problem is you suck at everything starting out, and then there is a short period where you are sort of OK, and then you good enough that you either rarely fail, or the failures don't really matter bacause the money you are making on the success you can afford to fail once in a while.  While I'm sure there is a lot of code changes in order to change this I think the success/failure rate should be smoothed out somehow.  Right now it seems like you fail every time, you fail about half the time, and then you rarely fail.  It would be better if starting out you would actually succeed once in a while.  (It seems like you have to fail 10-15 times before ever suceeding)  And make it so you actually fail more frequently when you are good.


Basically its the same thing with new players,  You star out dying all the time then you reach a "magic" point where your characters can actually live quite a while and pretty much die only to PKs, and a stupid mistake every now and then and you start complaining about how eay it is now...


Anyway, my thoughts on the problems even though I'll admit I didn't provide much of a solution.

[Dresan]

Starting out is tough, due to low skills, which is why most wanting to be independents join a clan then leave once they got the skills and maybe some sid to begin thier ventures (Usually in two or three week, basically newbie school).

                  Raising prices would make the indy life economically hard not to mention the usual dangers.  It won't be for everyone, some people will starve to death, others scrap by, it would be quite a challange...for those that survive and become established, they are still looking at two decent bracers a month instead of the one the clanned PC might be able to buy.

                    For those that absolutely can't find a way to make it on thier own,  well i guess the clans will start to look good as your PC begins to starve to death. :twisted:

[Bug]

I repeat, you're going to change the whole game because some people play crafters?

[X-D]

Alright, first, people talk about twinking, or killing everything in sight and making big money, let me tell you all, one does not need to kill everything in sight, one can kill ONE animal an IC day and still easily make 100-400 sid per ic day and deal only with other pc's...hell, more money in dealing with pc's no matter how you slice it. A crafter can make ONE item per ic day and make 200-800 a day, EASY.

Raising prices on this and lowering on that, blah blah blah, is Going to do NOTHING positive. It will decrease the player base because a game, that is already VERY hard for newbies, even with the great docs and the GDB and Great helpers would become impossible. And for the people who do know how to make money easily, well, double prices, we double our efforts, instead of one animal an IC day, I now need two, BIG DEAL, and for players that don't know quite as well how to make money, but manage to scrape by, now, they have to twink. OR leave, And Somebody find a staff member to get real numbers or say, but I'm SURE that a VAST majority of PC's are clanned. So, nothing to bitch about there. and EVERY clanned pc I look at who has been around for a couple IC years looks GREAT, decked out in nice shit.

Another NOT positive effect would be less money to drive plots, to start player clans and employ other players. I've said it before and so have others, I'm gonna say it again. INDY CHARS THAT BECOME RICH DO THINGS THAT INVOLVE OTHER CHARS SND CLANS!!! You people actually want that to go away? You got to be kidding me.

[X-D]

double post

[Bestatte]

Dresdan wrote: Icly people in Zalanthas have one thing one their mind Survival and Survival=Sid.

I respond: CITY people in Zalanthas embrace that notion. There are dozens of characters who don't live in cities. You can't raise an obsidian coin in the air to protect yourself against a mekillot. Survival, to them, had NOTHING (I'll repeat that) NOTHING - to do with obsidian coins. They don't need it to get armor, they don't need it to find weapons, they don't need it to steal a kank, or get water or food. They don't need obsidian coins -at all-

Now let's take a look at your notion of doubling the cost to the crafter:

A length of linen is around 80 sids these days, if I remember right. So now let's bump that puppy up to 160. What can a new clothworker make with a length of linen? I'll tell ya - nothing that will allow the clothworker to earn back the 160 sids he just spent. What can a -moderately- skilled clothworker make with that linen? Answer: nothing that will allow him to earn back the 160 sids he just spent. And that is assuming the new clothworker and moderate clothworker don't ruin the cloth in the attempt, resulting in no money at all and 160 sids down the drain.

Currently - a clothworker has a -chance- to earn back at least what he spent. By doubling price for raw materials you have just eradicated the unemployed clothworker from existence. And remember - a clothworker can't just go out and forage his own cloth for free. It MUST be purchased (or stolen).

Shall we move on now to the potential nightmare of the armorcrafter, the weaponsmith, the jeweler, the tinker? Or do you get the point?

[Dresan]

***I should mention, I'm really sleepy

First bug:

     The answer to your problem is most people will be clanned, doing their sneaky or other money making venture on the side.   Everyone would (or should) have other souces of revenue.

                                 
Now X-D :

             You said it yourself one animal and it's 200-800 sid. This is not twinking, yet you have all this excess sid. After doubling prices, it would mean kill one animal like your used to and live with the sid you get from it not go kill another one and be like before, that would be twinking.
It just doesn't seem right that you have all this excess sid with out twinking like we can now.

              The game is hard on newbies not because of sid or low skill, it's because they have absolutely no knowlegde of the game.  They should be looking for a clan to get experience, not trying to make sid on their own. Clanned PC won't be starving to death over increased prices.

               About less money to drive plots...good indies will be slowed down but they will eventually (with luck) make it. Once they do they find that the sid they have goes way farther then it used to (and now it may entice some clanned PC).  What good is having all that Sid when everybody has a ton of sid already, people go through plot not for the sid but for the RP experience, it would be nice if it could be for both.

  Bestatte:

                 Yes, i know some people don't deal in sid that's why i said city people, since they are the once that mostly deal in sid. however that being said, a damn good bow that you can only at the shop with SID goes a long way with them.  You can usually barter with them, not with sid itself but with items with cost you sid.

                   Any crafter that can get raw material from the wild would be able to survive agian i would assume they would go to a house and practice with the sid they make there before trying something moving on.  
If prices were doubled what all crafter would have to do is team up with another hunter PC in order to get materals cheaper.


Tailors can actually make quite alot of money, right now (harder if prices are doubled), true they need alot of money invested in it.   You would have to buy linen somewhere where it is cheap and sell it were it is rare....in otherwords find a "superior trade route".  I could crunch some numbers but i'm pretty sure that with a route i know, a tailor could make sid even with double pricing.

             Believe it or not armour crafters and weapon crafter would have it the easiest with prices going up on in the stores their skills would be sought after by PCs. Actually to the point where they might be getting into trouble with the big houses.  With money being tight all around they probably find PC (even calnned hunters) to sell them materials cheaper.  
_______________________________________________________
                 Here is the biggest problem with my idea:  if you haggle for an item for -2X here and travel far far away you won't be able to make 2X over there.
     But i think if you average out what a decent indy makes (without twinking) and make items cost appropriately, the game economy would work better and more realistically . This is just my suggestion, it would need some number crunching and probably a few special considerations but it could work.

           Anyways the reply posts to this idea are for some reason getting more vicious, i don't know why but i'd be happy to hear other suggestions.
I think Bestatte mentioned something about the economy needed to be reworked from the bottom up, not quick fixes, i'd like to hear your proposal.   I'd still glad for the feedback on this since i might actually take the time to crunch numbers later, maybe i'll come up with something better after some sleep. <end of rant>

[spawnloser]

It should be possible to make an independant crafter...the problem is not the cost of things being too low, the problem is the price of things being sold too high...and in general, people bringing in too much money.

Oh, and Dresan, it would be more difficult for everyone...but a tailor would be stopped, period.  Noone, without having some other way to make money, could be a tailor...and it is unrealistic for someone to be a wandering hunter/mercenary/tailor...really, if they are trying to be a tailor professionally.  They shouldn't have more than one source of income, but only one, their profession.  Doubling costs of linen would kill this concept entirely.

[sjanimal]

I'm probably going to turn this post into a seperate thread as well, however I want to raise one point that I think has not been said yet, but carries significant weight.

Let's have a good, serious talk about twinks.

Take me for example.  I'm not a twink.   I end up playing creepy, unemployable drunk longer scavengers once in a while (about every four characters or so.)

Now, in real live, I'm not a dumb dude.  I know how to forage, craft and hunt around enough to make about 200 sid per real life hour, if I'm really trying.  

Now, 200 sid is enough money for me to sit in a tavern all real life week and drink cheap ale, as well as to pay for other basic necessities.

So that's pretty much what I do with characters like that:  scrounge up a small chunk of change, and then spend it.  

I spend the rest of my time role-playing, engaging in sub-plots, having fun, and helping other people have fun.  If you make it harder for me to scrape that change together....let's say maybe four hours to get the same amount of living money, then that's not going to stop me from getting the money.  It's not going to force me to join a clan.  It's not going to cause me to role-play any better, and it's not going to contribute to the realism of the game to have me standing out at some choice spot in the desert and spamming the actions I need to make money.

What it will mean is three less hours of Nintendo that I can play a week.  And that will piss me off.

It won't stop twinks, either.  Say the word.  Twink.  Think about what that means.  That's a person who, even though he's in a great role-playing game with great role-players, still wants to be that tard who has the shiny +1 steel sword and will do what it takes to get it.  If you change the system on him, he'll just twink the new system.  You're not going to out-twink a twink.  

If you are serious about stopping twinks, and I think we should be, I think we ought to find someone on the staff who is as riled up about it as we are, and they should spend a couple of hours a week catching and correcting twinks.  They should be real polite and helpful the first time they catch someone, but by like the third time the twink should just flat out get banned or something.

Anyways, I think that's a much better solution.

[Xygax]

Please do not post anonymously, and then later post in the same thread as your usual self, agreeing with the anonymous poster.  This has been made clear to some people before, but perhaps a reminder is in order.  And it's worth mentioning in general, as well.

Thanks.

[Bug]

Dresan:

Lets take your standard mercenary. Some fighting profession on main and secondary class. ICly its a rough type who likes drinking, killing and drinking after killing. He likes shinyn weapons and tough armor. He doesnt care at all how to make any of those (even if he might have some appropriate skill) and if realy shouldn't, thats what crafters are there for.

Lets take your standard magicker (im not familiar with magickers, just going by basics), serving a noble house. He invests lots of time in researching and applying his magicks. Why should he go craft?

What im saying is, yes most characters will be able to go and find a second source of income. But what if its not right for my character? What if I want to roleplay a straight out kind who doesnt deviate from his profession to craft something? Think about real life. Lots of people theoretically can make stuff. How many of them go about doing it?

By some of the tweaks discussed here it will be either go and find a second (third, fourth) source of income or be the poor guy - and if you ever have to fight someone else, you'll simply die as their armor/shield/weapon will be much, much better. (there is skill of course... but quality of equipment matters)

[Pantoufle]

How can you make 200-800 coins for killing one single animal?  Presumably you've tanned the hide to increase it's value, smoked the meat, and possibly pawned off a few of the bones as well (and if you've successfully done all of that, then you're a pretty skilled individual who likely deserves a little pay back anyway).  But can this REALLY amount to 800 coins?  Can it amount to half that sum even?  I just don't know if that's true.  Though I admit, after selling my kill to buy some more arrows/water/whatever, I haven't really bothered to do the math to find out what the total profit is.

[Angela Christine]

     The answer to your problem is most people will be clanned, doing their sneaky or other money making venture on the side.   Everyone would (or should) have other souces of revenue.

Why?  That certainly is not realistic.  Sure, in real life I know a few people who have a regular 9-5 job and then also make home-made jewelry or other crafts to sell at a flea market in their free time, but only a few.  It is absurd that everyone should have other sources of revenue.

Forcing "most" people into clans is not a good solution.  Forcing someone into a clan who does not want to play in a clan will not improve anything, especially clans.  A clan isn't meant to be a steady paycheck used as a back-up to your primary interest.  Some clans recruiters/leaders will rightly get a little offended if you treat them like that.



Drastically changing the economy because a few people have more money than you think they should have doesn't make sense to me.  

Posts from a newbie that can't make a living are fairly common, when I was a newbie I had trouble making money and foraging was easier then.  Even experienced players sometimes have money trouble, particularly if they are trying a new type of role or suffer a misfortune.  My guess, and it is just a guess, is that it is at least as common for a PC to have a shortage of coin as it is for a PC to have an obvious excess of wealth.  Oddly enough a chracter that has resorted to selling his clothes to buy food isn't that attractive to most recruiters, and yes, I have seen a character do this.  :lol:  Ok, I've never seen a character so poor that they were eating their own fingers, but then I've only seen one NPC do it.


There are already plenty of good money sinks.  For example a chracter that is conspicously living above his birth-station will be subjected to more taxes, fines and "bribes" by the Templarate (this assumes that there are active PC Templars with the personality to  tax upstarts).  Eating and drinking in taverns is another good way to free oneself from excess cash, why eat your own cooking if you don't have to?  Then there are the crooked gambling games available in many taverns, ok, they aren't exactly crooked but like all gambling establishments the odds always favor the house.  Buying new clothes/gear is actually a pretty good way to bleed off some extra cash, since you'll probably get 1/4 what you paid (or less) when you sell it.  Personally, I've probably dropped thousands on that guy with the scale in Allanak, because I love to know what things weigh.  The increased water drain had definately hurt outdoorsy types, especially in Allanak where you also have to deal with the rising cost of water and water taxes.  

A few PCs make it past the money sinks to make enough money that they can engage in conspicuous consumption.  I don't see the problem.  Most of them are still not-rich.  A silk outfit doesn't make your rich, not if you are still sleeping on a tavern floor a 400-a-year hovel.  20,000 in the bank doesn't make you rich, not unless you also own your own house, shop and wagon.  Pretty clothes and a nice sword are not real wealth.


AC

[Armaddict]

THANK YOU, AC.

I stopped posting because the griping was annoying.  I...do not...see -any- reason whatsoever to change the way things are working with money.

All it has been is people -whining- that they want it changed because someone else is making more money when they think they shouldn't.

Me, I say, if you're in the game -just- to make as much money as possible...do whatever you want.  Twink it out.  Craft it up.  Kill all the rich people and loot their uber-leet equipment and sell it!  Then, you'll have -all- the money you want.  Yes, this is sarcasm.  If the game is becoming based around how much money you're making...that's right...I'm calling you a money-mongering twink.

Ugh.  These threads should be done and over with.  They are accomplishing nothing whatsoever, and were brought up over a stupid point anyway.

[Bug]

I just had a thought...

The main problem is PCs who sell so much stuff, yes?

Then why not limit the amount sid the BUYERS have?

Sure, you have all that stuff after the reboot, but because all sid reserves had been rebooted aswell, you cant sell it, d'oh.

You can play around with it, realy. Think that might help.

I already see limitations though, and will post them. This means that if one successful player sells all his stuff others wont be able to sell theirs at all.

Now, we can make buyers not want to spend more than 50% of their current sum on any single person.

That can even make sense, a shopkeeper wont lay out all his money for one person with lots of stuff, period.

[Xygax]

Shopkeepers DO have limited amounts of 'sid.

[Bug]

Thought so, wasn't sure though.

I was thinking more - while its nothing useful, just musing, here it is.

In real life most shops and companies also have very specific suppliers, and its very difficult for the new guy to find his way around.

This makes sense in the game too - BUT! The suppliers are the people who are using the reboot to make money?

The concept is good, but execution is senseless.

[Anonymous]

AC:

             Actually in Zalanthas, i could actually see most poeple have at least two jobs, i would think the pay for most is pretty crappy.  The jobs of some PCs are sometimes covers for other sneaky stuff they do.  While a tailor can make some sid off of what they do, they would probably still do other merchantile things.  Also for the indepentent tailor, life would be extra hard...most wear armour, others buy kadius, and a large portion are so poor they are half naked.  Unless you have a job with the houses, i would think having a person having one job is the exception not the norm, IM(humble)O.
                               

              I think your right about forcing people into clans though, some don't like clans, it's a playability issue and an important one.  If doubling prices and keeping the buying price the same wouldn't kill traveling merchants then this problem surely would.

                   
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            All people have done is presented ideas and argued and debated them, that's it.  No one forces you to read or to post,and there is no reason anything here should be getting any type of emotion going.  

              Alot of times when people bring their ideas or view points here they are immediatly dimissed as whines or complaint. While i would agree that some are not presented properly, but  i'd like to mention that it's ideas that have gotten the game to were it is at today.   There are alot of poeple with the mentality of 'things are fine the way they are' and they put down people how strive to change and try to improve.  If it it were left to people with that mentality we would still probably think the world was flat.  As good as things are, they can always improve and get better.  The beauty with Arm is that if we try something and it doesn't work we can always go back

                   Having said all that, i concede that my idea may not be the best solution but i don't regret defending it.

[Dresan]

Above post is mine...i forget that the GDB logs out automatically after some time

[Agent_137]

Please do not post anonymously, and then later post in the same thread as your usual self, agreeing with the anonymous poster.  This has been made clear to some people before, but perhaps a reminder is in order.  And it's worth mentioning in general, as well.

Thanks.

HAHAHAHAH.

What if I make two accounts, with different emails, and use them to agree with each other? Shit, I can get lots of emails, i'll have me an army of people to agree with me! I'll dominate ALL the votes! MWHAHAHAHAHAHA.

:roll: