Some thoughts about independent things

[CrafterWoman]

I'm reading a lot of talk about the game economy. Lots of good discussion, but no solutions that will keep things in check. Here's what I see as -potential- issues (they aren't always issues, and that in itself is an issue)

1) the classes go through phases of popularity. Sometimes you just have too many clothworkers. Sometimes not enough. Etc. etc. etc.

2) Way too much reliance on the NPC shops. This is the biggest issue I think.

3) Twinkage. This also goes through phases. Sometimes there's a few who spam-craft and fill up the NPC shops the first hour after reboot. Sometimes there are none like that.

A solution, which would need to be done all at the same time for it to work:

1) instead of limiting the NPC to only accept 5 of each item, limit the number of items any given PC can sell to him per reboot. So clothworker can only sell 2 purple scarves and 2 green pairs of linen pants, whatever. But the OTHER clothworkers can also sell 2 of each, no matter how many or few clothworkers there are.

2) At random times throughout the week, reset the npc's list back down to nothing except what he normally loads up with. Once the crafter has hit his alloted amount of things he is allowed to sell, it won't matter if the list is empty again. The NPC still won't buy more of each item from him until next reboot.

3) When you're a buyer looking to buy something that is craftable by someone other than "just" a merchant house, look for PCs to trade with FIRST. Don't run to the shops right away if you're looking for something that a PC can make.

4) when you're a crafter looking to sell something you made, look for the PCs to sell to FIRST. Don't dump everything you have on the shops just because they're convenient.

What these things will accomplish:

1) Encourage more PC - to - PC interaction. That's always a good thing.
2) Encourage crafters to take things in trade instead of being stuck with sids all the time that they might not always be able to use. Some of the things crafters want or need to do their work can't be purchased at any shop.
3) Encourage buyers to offer things to trade rather than always handing out sids. This would allow clanned people like guards and house aides and such to keep more of their sids, but get rid of some of the crap they have stockpiled in their barracks. Because one house guard's crappy piece of blocky stone is a stonecrafter's treasure.
4) It will make independent crafters less financially wealthy, without keeping them from getting the -things- they need to do what they do. Less sids, more stuff to keep going, and still enough sids to eat and drink and stable their mounts.
5) It will make clanned people who are stuck with a salary and a schedule have more sids saved up, and give them something to do on their off time other than just run to the shop, sell stuff, and run to a tavern and sit there til dawn.

Discuss.

[CrafterWoman]

Oh include independent hunters too. I forgot that. They should have the same NPC limitations for selling hides and skins and food to shops. They should also try trading what they skin and forage to crafters of all kinds, employed or independent.

[moab]

What would happen if most of the NPC shops were dusted and PCs were able to staff their own shops - which they sorta can via changing their long desc, anyway.

The bald clothworker sits on a mat here, watching passerby.

I wonder what the impact would be.  *ponder*

[sjanimal]

Thank you Crafterwoman.

I agree 100%.  This is the best solution I have seen so far.  

It's funny, a lot of people would rather buy and sell to NPC than PC.  This is terrible.  I always go to PCs first, it's more fun.  I hope other people will too.

[mansa]

Why don't you make it so that the crafter does -not- make a profit, selling to NPCs?

Well...at least...to the merchant house NPCs.

[sheep]

I personally prefer selling to other PCs; I like the interaction, but there arn't always PCs willing to buy what you are selling. As for limiting the players...why would a merchant turn down a person who's offering to sell him/her goods that could be resold for a profit? How does the merchant know that there are going to be other crafters willing to sell them that same item?

[Bestatte]

I'd say that's where realism vs. playability should kick in. It's not all that realistic for a merchant NPC to only buy 5 duskhorn pelts to supply an entire city filled with armorcrafters, is it? But - he does. And no one buys them. That isn't realistic either. But that's how it is right now. Very -un-realistic, but far more realistic than it was before, when anyone could sell an unlimited quantify of everything to every NPC in the game.

Unfortunately that limit tipped things over from unrealistic, to "not nearly as playable" - because if SuperTwinkHunter shows up at 8:02 EST on Saturday night and unloads last week's pack full of 5 duskhorn pelts, 5 gurth shells, 5 this, 5 that, 5 the other thing, and 5 of every fucking herb in the game, then every single other person who walks into that shop is going to be stuck with "Sorry, I have too many of those" until the following saturday. That is neither realistic NOR playable.

[Vettrock]

I always try to sell to a PC rather than an NPC, but especially for those of us who don't play during peak hours, it is often difficult to find PCs that will buy what you are selling.  If you are a hunter you can pack you extra stuff on your kank, but I really hate walking around loaded down, and once I get to the point where I have trouble loading my hides on a kank, I have to sell 'em.  

Also I can't get on right after the reboot to sell all, so sometimes I carry around the same skins for weeks at a time when someone gets on and sells 5 of them every reboot.

[Armaddict]

It's a matter of convenience for me.  I can go and sell that helmet, really quick, to Salarr, before I have to report back in for schedule, log off, whatever.

Selling to a PC can be time consuming, frustrating and grating.  So...no.  I actually don't like it.

[jhunter]

I agree with Armadict, I usually go by convienience...whatever is easier at the moment will  determine who I will sell/trade with.

Besides, it's a real pain in the ass to carry around something until you find a pc interested in buying it (if you ever do) and then they'll only take it if they are totally screwing you on the price for it. Sorry, I'm just not going to sell this hide that I risked my life for that's worth a good 75 'sid to you for 20 'sid...eat shit.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Interesting thought, this thread.  What if the shops owned by the major merchant Houses, Salarr, Kadius, and Kurac, purchased items at far, far less than their worth?

It doesn't seem like an unreasonable thought, to my way of thinking.  Why does Kadius need to buy hides for anything resembling a reasonable price?  It has hunters that bring in scores of hides; I see no incentive for them to cut into potential profits by paying out 'good' prices for stuff that they already pay their own Hunters to bring in.

It's sort of like places that trade used CDs or books, but also sell new ones.  They don't need your stuff, it's just a good way to get you into the store, and they can pinch a good bit of profit off of a CD they buy back from you for $2 and then sell for $10.

[Armaddict]

They already do so, if you haven't noticed.

[CrafterWoman]

Interesting thought, this thread.  What if the shops owned by the major merchant Houses, Salarr, Kadius, and Kurac, purchased items at far, far less than their worth?

It doesn't seem like an unreasonable thought, to my way of thinking.  Why does Kadius need to buy hides for anything resembling a reasonable price?  It has hunters that bring in scores of hides; I see no incentive for them to cut into potential profits by paying out 'good' prices for stuff that they already pay their own Hunters to bring in.

It's sort of like places that trade used CDs or books, but also sell new ones.  They don't need your stuff, it's just a good way to get you into the store, and they can pinch a good bit of profit off of a CD they buy back from you for $2 and then sell for $10.

They already do sell things for far less than they're worth. In fact, many of the things I sell to them are things that I make - and many of those things I get LESS than what I paid to buy the materials to make them in the first place. Consider the crafter, -especially- a newer crafter - he might be able to skin his own hides, or forage some of his own stones (not all - some of them aren't forageable to my knowledge and can only be purchased from NPCs).

So sure - I have 5 rhino hides, and I have to tan them. I ruin 4 of them, tan one. I then go to make that one into a set of rhino greaves - and ruin it. Back to square one.

Eventually I get pretty good with my skill. Now I have 5 rhinor hides, ruin only 2, and manage to make 2 sets of greaves with the remaining three. And I can sell them for a whopping 28 sids per pair at the Salarr shop.

In the meantime - all the time it took me to hunt, the risk I took, the damage to my armor when I got smacked around by the rhino - the thirst and hunger I incurred - I've paid out at -least- 200 sids in bandages, armor repair, and water. And got 54 sids back for my efforts.

It's already set up this way, no need to "fix" what isn't broken.

As far as "convenience" is concerned - oh well, sucks to be you, and sucks to be me too, because if it isn't convenient for people to buy directly from me, they're gonna just have to pay extra buying the -exact same shit I just made and sold to Salarr- and pay twice what they would've paid me to buy it direct.

That's why I suggested people go to the PCs FIRST. Did I say "don't buy from the shops?" Nope, I didn't say that. I said go to the PCs FIRST. Go to the bar where you KNOW you always go. Ask if there's a crafter around, or a hunter around, or ask if anyone knows one who can get to the Sanctuary before "late night." If no, then go for the shop. If so, you just created a need, and the supplier delivers the supply, and everyone's happy, and there's lots of fun RP.

But none of this will work if people aren't willing to try interacting with each other instead of mindlessly running to NPC merchants like mice looking for cheese in a maze. If that was the kind of game I wanted to play, I'd play some moronic one-shooter graphics game.

Are you people suggesting that you aren't willing to give up 5 minutes of inconvenience for the opportunity to roleplay in a roleplaying game? Shame on you if so.

[Armaddict]

Wow.  I didn't know selling to shops wasn't Role-play.  Since you know...going to an armor shop to sell or buy armor from the premiere supplier in the known world is OUT OF CHARACTER.

What I'm saying is that actively seeking out someone to do this things that is easily provided for by a well-known, well-trusted house that is much more guarunteed to be quality.  Why would my fella go from tavern to tavern, asking each fella he sees, "Hey, do you make or buy armor?  No?  How about you?  No?  You?  No?  Oh shit.  Next tavern."  After all three taverns, "Damn.  Not a single one?  I could've just went to the shop.  Oh...but then I wouldn't have had to go through all this trouble of finding someone who will renegotiate prices based on their own desire to make money, since they are by themself and survive off my -one- sale for a little while.

Sorry, but I think I'm role-playing just fine.  The IC logic is profound.

You know.  We should -all- just limit our interaction with NPC's.  Because...that's not role-play.  In the least.  And this is a role-playing game.  Find all the PC's you can.

[Armaddict]

Here's an idea I just had.

Since this is a ROLE-PLAYING game, how about instead of asking people to stop buying from npc's and -find- PC's to buy and sell from and to on the GDB, you actually go through the ROLE-PLAY of playing a businessman/woman who actively works to gain business away from those monopoly merchant houses, and ROLE-PLAY in order to get those people to like and trust doing business with you more.

Our PC's can't be dumbasses who just decide the merchant houses are evil.  They're dominant for a reason.  Make some business relationships.  Be polite to your customers.  Get them to spread your name for your good service.  Maybe then you'll have a friend who spreads your name around, and...*gasp*...you'll get more business.

I had a friend do this with an armorcrafter.  He was independent, and he had nobility coming to -him- instead of Salarr for his quality work and fair prices, as well as dedication towards getting their order done quickly.

The GDB is not the place to ask people to change the way their PC's think.

[CrafterWoman]

Armaddict, what part of this did you not understand?

That's why I suggested people go to the PCs FIRST. Did I say "don't buy from the shops?" Nope, I didn't say that. I said go to the PCs FIRST.

Did you know that there are hundreds of craftable items that are not made by any of the merchant houses or loaded up on Saturdays by any NPC merchant? I'm guessing you knew that.

Did you know that those *particular* items are only available at those shops if a crafter sells them to them? I'm guessing you knew that too.

Did you know - that if you were hoping to buy one of those *particular* items, you could probably get a much better price if you went directly to the crafter who crafted it? I'm guessing you also knew that.

Did you know - that if you're not a hunter, and need hides, you could get hides for a LOT cheaper by going directly to a hunter PC than you can buy buying them from a shop? My bet's on your knowing this as well.

And - here's a secret, shh don't tell anyone. There's this skill, called Psi. And another one called Contact. You can *gasp* contact your local crafter or hunter - or at least *try* to do this...and attempt to set up a meeting with him on your day off to buy one of those things that they make, that are *not* available at a shop unless that crafter sells it to the shop.

Oooh...IC info! Enjoy, it's a gift.

[Armaddict]

Yes.  Yes, I knew all that.

As I said...make your business IC.  If you're publicizing, yes, you may have people come to you.  But I wouldn't expect too much unless you're working for it.  Which is what -I- said.  Don't ask people to change the way they're doing things here.

Find a way to make them think it's a good idea IC.  I wouldn't expect anyone to sit around and hold onto that item they need to sell for money while you're not logged on, though.

I really...-really-, fail to see how going to PC's first is going to solve the problem, though.

[CrafterWoman]

See, that's why in my first post, I said- if you're a seller, stop running immediately to the NPC shops, and start trying to find PC customers FIRST. Please don't assume that I'm complaining about having trouble making money. I'm not. At all. I'm having trouble getting PC interaction as a crafter, because all the potential customers say "Oh no thanks" and then run to the shop and buy the shit I just sold the NPC merchant because the PC said he wasn't interested.

It's just a total waste. My PC is getting very slowly wealthy, and I'm bored stiff. I'd rather have some great RP interaction than have tons of sids in the bank, and I'm sure the NPC merchant would be glad to get rid of me so I don't keep pestering her to buy my stuff all the time.

But it has to be a two-way deal. As a seller, I NEED to drum up business and get people interested in buying these non-Salarr and non-Kadius things from ME instead of from the shop that REsells them. As a buyer, you need to make some attempt to buy that generic bauble or craftable scarf from the crafter. If one side fails, there's no deal made, and we're right back where we started.

That's why I put this here on the GDB. To offer one possible solution to the perceived "problem" of inappropriate spread of wealth among the game.

[Armaddict]

See, this is why I'm in such disagreement.  I don't -see- inappropriate spread of wealth.  Things are fine.  The ones who survive while gathering materials get their crafting up, hire on helpers, continue selling, have deals with houses for them to sell their things to them, have them resell them so that they get distributed more widely, everyone makes money off the deal, as opposed to one person getting the lump sum, and, if that crafter lives through their material gathering, their political setbacks, and plots to -take- their money, they have a nice little independent business going on.

You know, just like the little independent businesses all over the known world.  They don't make as much as the merchants houses, but hey, they're small.  They don't -need- to make that much.  If their quality is good, they start to contend with the house, gaining more of a customer base, which is more loyal, and you've just successfully worked up a -crafter- character.

You don't think the person who lives long enough to establish themselves -deserves- to make a little more money than most, as an independent?  They're effectively starting up their -own- business.

Things seem completely fine to me.

[sjanimal]

I don't have anything to contribute to this argument beyond what was already said, but I still agree with CraftWoman 100%.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

While some things are fine, I still wanna see more danger outside. I think in the past that the staff tried to make the danger come from PCs as opposed to NPCs. Well, I don't like that move. Make it dangerous, and write the programs for the creatures to make them realistic.

[Dresan]

I like craftwoman's Idea....still it won't solve the biggest problem that i see in Arm, slightly slow it down but not stop it.  Whether your in a clan or an independent everyone can still hoarde mass Sid, they're aren't enough money sinks in the game...I'd like to see prices double (maybe even triple) all around.  If this happen the haggle skill would have to be twiked down to maybe down only 1/3 of the price instead of half.  Also story should keep buying at the price they currently buy now.  I think people playing Indies might like the increased challenge, i know i would.

[Delirium]

Double prices and you see a really annoying trend that many MUDS suffer from - price creep. People make a bunch of money, so they jury-rig it by making money sinks - which only results in placing more emphasis on making money, getting money, and hurts the little people that don't twink and don't spam. If you want a functioning economy, you have to start from the bottom up, not make 'quick fixes'.

To add on:

There are some things I simply hawk off to NPCs - I will admit to that. I know the NPC will want it, I need to get rid of weight, there is little use for it to PCs. However.. I have found that it is immensely more enjoyable and rewarding to try and trade as much as possible with PCs. Do you have to limit yourself to trading only with one or the other? Of course not. Is it more likely to draw you into plots and at the very least, cause you to develop relations of one sort or another with a whole host of characters, if you trade with PCs instead of NPCs? Y'damn skippy.

PCs have a lot more to offer than NPCs ever do. I suggest to anyone that they at least give it a try. Do I suggest that they wait around with packs-full of heavy stuff if they can't find a PC buyer and they need to sell? Hell no. Do I suggest that they make an effort to go to PCs first? Yeah. I've found that it is more than worth it.

[Agent_137]

Double prices and you see a really annoying trend that many MUDS suffer from - price creep. People make a bunch of money, so they jerry-rig fix it by making money sinks - which only results in placing more emphasis on making money, getting money, and hurts the little people that don't twink and don't spam. If you want a functioning economy, you have to start from the bottom up, not make 'quick fixes'.

A-motherfucking-men


As was already stated by an Imm, at current prices a well role-played indie (except merchant) will not be blingin' all over the place. Ergo, if you up prices, all those well done hunters are gonna get reamed.

[spawnloser]

Did you know that there are hundreds of craftable items that are not made by any of the merchant houses or loaded up on Saturdays by any NPC merchant? I'm guessing you knew that.

Did you know that those *particular* items are only available at those shops if a crafter sells them to them? I'm guessing you knew that too.

Did you know - that if you were hoping to buy one of those *particular* items, you could probably get a much better price if you went directly to the crafter who crafted it? I'm guessing you also knew that.

Did you know - that if you're not a hunter, and need hides, you could get hides for a LOT cheaper by going directly to a hunter PC than you can buy buying them from a shop? My bet's on your knowing this as well.

You see, anonymous person that thinks her idea is the only solution...the problem with your idea is that PCs want to pay what they think the item is worth.  I have played someone with clothworking that made an entire outfit that the shops would offer (for the lot) 750 'sid.  I could get twice that with haggling.  PC's didn't want to pay more than 100.  I got all the PC-to-PC interaction when I tried telling them that they were offering too little...and then I went and sold it for a respectable amount.  Keep in mind that I was still, after haggling, getting less money than the shop would get when the person went to buy it there.

[Agent_137]

hah, well those pcs you dealt with got screwed, huh? good for them. I hope everyone isn't that stupid.

[Dresan]

Let's face it, people who are going to twink will twink no matter what,  it's easy to make sid now and people were still stealing tavern furniture to furnish their apartment.  You won't be hurting anyone at the bottom by doubling the prices,  it just means it will be harder to horde sid, harder to be an indepentant not impossible just will take alot longer to get the best that sallarr or kadius sells.  People in clans will still be safe financially, 300-500 sid every ic month, will by a decent bracer (If armour ain't included in the clan package).

                       Icly people in Zalanthas have one thing one their mind Survival and Survival=Sid.  I believe making Sid more scarce then it is will not only make the game more realistic but more enjoyable.  More people wanting it means more people taking risks.  This does not mean they start killing ever animal in sight (not everyone is a hunter), it might mean they start selling clan secret, consider banditry.

                         With prices being so high it will be extremely favorable to find a Pc to do it for cheaper...however this might now mean that if X is selling armour a salarr employ sees this, X will have to deal with the wrath of salarr.  More conflict more is OOCly good.  Not to mention there are currently alot of items that people never buy...when is the last time a wooden sword seemed like a good buy, with higher prices maybe they could be.   Merchant houses know you want and need thier things, thier prices should be dictated by how much a PC can make.

[Agent_137]

So you propose that we jack up prices to make it harder for twinks to twink, and those who roleplay independents well (scraping by) can just go get screwed?


how about, not?


I mean, ya got some good thoughts there, trying to solve some problems and improve some shit, but you are missing the consequences.

[Bug]

I'd like to add. Its very nice seeing all those crafters and hunters and skinners and you-name-it, but what about the other players?

The not-twinks who live by contract or a blade or a spell? Who fairly get hired and perform their duties, to be paid a *normal* salary?

Some of the suggestions, like doubling prices, are obviously ignoring us, the not-so-money-able folk.

-me

edit: to reply to Economy from a "consumer's" perspective - Stores are cheap. Untill anyone else proves me wrong, so will I think. All those crafters are just sid-hungry bastards who only steal fair business from the Noble/Merchant houses.

If a maker is to make himself a name, be creative. You got the money, now make it work. Pay people to tell others about you. Give simple items out for free just to show off your quality, and to get the name rolling. And damnit, talk with the imms if you must and pay that little extra 10k you had in your bank account to get NPC hawkers to walk around and announce you when you come to the town to set up your shop for a week of rest from all your hunts and travels. If you're new its still easy - set yourself up outside shops and taverns, and suggest your wares there. If you're an arms/armor crafter, go talk with the mercs to see if they will allow you to sell your stuff to their members.

Its not that difficult, and is great to roleplay.

In character, I'd still go to the stores, because i wouldn't trust the PC's. They have to prove themselves to me, claims of "oh, my things are cheaper, of course" just do NOT cut it.

[Dresan]

To recap:

            -All clanned PC will be fine...less money in the bank, less stuff for some but no dying of hunger&thirst here

        -Twinks will twink whether we lower the prices, keep them the same or increase them...Twinking is a whole other issue all together... No matter what you do there will be twinks.

        -I say double but it might be more, maybe less, basically if people (and i think independent set the standard) are can make say 10 sid a day(without twinking) well then water should cost 2 sid a day, water another 2 sid , material or arrows another 2 sid, mics another 1...maybe save 3 sid a day.


                My idea effects idependent the most.... you don't need to twink to get alot of sid in the bank...For example in one of AC's post she mentioned that she had to make her character avoid dead bodies (which she admitted was ICly odd) or it would just be too easy.   One of my recent character was an idependent too.  With one easy and safe runs i could make 200 + sid, it wasn't a twink just a decent trade route, i almost never had to actually do it because i could walk around town and in one way or another Sid would fall in my lap.   By doubling the prices, people won't have to go to great lengths to scrap by (or turn a blind eye to Sid), the world would be harsh enough that they just are.

                        This might solve a couple of other issues for one it would make a clan job more sought after since it would be real easy to starve to death, two no more commoners out coining nobles, a no more hording of sid, and a few others i might be forgetting.  
                             
                      You know i want to roleplay ICly realistically however it is hard when i just walk around the town and find sid on the floor or it shoved in my face.

[Vettrock]

I don't think raising the prices is the answer, it is just going to make it much more difficult starting out, and I don't think it will have the desired effect.  Basically the way I see the problem, starting out as a crafter or hunter you need a lot of cash, because you suck at everything.  Most of my characters in the first couple of days of playtime, are very concerned about money.  It is a matter of if they will run out of money before they get good enough to kill anything bigger than a gimpka rat, or run out of money before they make anything worth selling, and won't be able to buy the raw materials anymore.  Then at some point they get to the break even point where their skills have advanced, and at that point they can make money, and shortly after that they get to the point where its not even very difficult to make money.

Basically the root of the problem is you suck at everything starting out, and then there is a short period where you are sort of OK, and then you good enough that you either rarely fail, or the failures don't really matter bacause the money you are making on the success you can afford to fail once in a while.  While I'm sure there is a lot of code changes in order to change this I think the success/failure rate should be smoothed out somehow.  Right now it seems like you fail every time, you fail about half the time, and then you rarely fail.  It would be better if starting out you would actually succeed once in a while.  (It seems like you have to fail 10-15 times before ever suceeding)  And make it so you actually fail more frequently when you are good.


Basically its the same thing with new players,  You star out dying all the time then you reach a "magic" point where your characters can actually live quite a while and pretty much die only to PKs, and a stupid mistake every now and then and you start complaining about how eay it is now...


Anyway, my thoughts on the problems even though I'll admit I didn't provide much of a solution.

[Dresan]

Starting out is tough, due to low skills, which is why most wanting to be independents join a clan then leave once they got the skills and maybe some sid to begin thier ventures (Usually in two or three week, basically newbie school).

                  Raising prices would make the indy life economically hard not to mention the usual dangers.  It won't be for everyone, some people will starve to death, others scrap by, it would be quite a challange...for those that survive and become established, they are still looking at two decent bracers a month instead of the one the clanned PC might be able to buy.

                    For those that absolutely can't find a way to make it on thier own,  well i guess the clans will start to look good as your PC begins to starve to death. :twisted:

[Bug]

I repeat, you're going to change the whole game because some people play crafters?

[X-D]

Alright, first, people talk about twinking, or killing everything in sight and making big money, let me tell you all, one does not need to kill everything in sight, one can kill ONE animal an IC day and still easily make 100-400 sid per ic day and deal only with other pc's...hell, more money in dealing with pc's no matter how you slice it. A crafter can make ONE item per ic day and make 200-800 a day, EASY.

Raising prices on this and lowering on that, blah blah blah, is Going to do NOTHING positive. It will decrease the player base because a game, that is already VERY hard for newbies, even with the great docs and the GDB and Great helpers would become impossible. And for the people who do know how to make money easily, well, double prices, we double our efforts, instead of one animal an IC day, I now need two, BIG DEAL, and for players that don't know quite as well how to make money, but manage to scrape by, now, they have to twink. OR leave, And Somebody find a staff member to get real numbers or say, but I'm SURE that a VAST majority of PC's are clanned. So, nothing to bitch about there. and EVERY clanned pc I look at who has been around for a couple IC years looks GREAT, decked out in nice shit.

Another NOT positive effect would be less money to drive plots, to start player clans and employ other players. I've said it before and so have others, I'm gonna say it again. INDY CHARS THAT BECOME RICH DO THINGS THAT INVOLVE OTHER CHARS SND CLANS!!! You people actually want that to go away? You got to be kidding me.

[X-D]

double post

[Bestatte]

Dresdan wrote: Icly people in Zalanthas have one thing one their mind Survival and Survival=Sid.

I respond: CITY people in Zalanthas embrace that notion. There are dozens of characters who don't live in cities. You can't raise an obsidian coin in the air to protect yourself against a mekillot. Survival, to them, had NOTHING (I'll repeat that) NOTHING - to do with obsidian coins. They don't need it to get armor, they don't need it to find weapons, they don't need it to steal a kank, or get water or food. They don't need obsidian coins -at all-

Now let's take a look at your notion of doubling the cost to the crafter:

A length of linen is around 80 sids these days, if I remember right. So now let's bump that puppy up to 160. What can a new clothworker make with a length of linen? I'll tell ya - nothing that will allow the clothworker to earn back the 160 sids he just spent. What can a -moderately- skilled clothworker make with that linen? Answer: nothing that will allow him to earn back the 160 sids he just spent. And that is assuming the new clothworker and moderate clothworker don't ruin the cloth in the attempt, resulting in no money at all and 160 sids down the drain.

Currently - a clothworker has a -chance- to earn back at least what he spent. By doubling price for raw materials you have just eradicated the unemployed clothworker from existence. And remember - a clothworker can't just go out and forage his own cloth for free. It MUST be purchased (or stolen).

Shall we move on now to the potential nightmare of the armorcrafter, the weaponsmith, the jeweler, the tinker? Or do you get the point?

[Dresan]

***I should mention, I'm really sleepy

First bug:

     The answer to your problem is most people will be clanned, doing their sneaky or other money making venture on the side.   Everyone would (or should) have other souces of revenue.

                                 
Now X-D :

             You said it yourself one animal and it's 200-800 sid. This is not twinking, yet you have all this excess sid. After doubling prices, it would mean kill one animal like your used to and live with the sid you get from it not go kill another one and be like before, that would be twinking.
It just doesn't seem right that you have all this excess sid with out twinking like we can now.

              The game is hard on newbies not because of sid or low skill, it's because they have absolutely no knowlegde of the game.  They should be looking for a clan to get experience, not trying to make sid on their own. Clanned PC won't be starving to death over increased prices.

               About less money to drive plots...good indies will be slowed down but they will eventually (with luck) make it. Once they do they find that the sid they have goes way farther then it used to (and now it may entice some clanned PC).  What good is having all that Sid when everybody has a ton of sid already, people go through plot not for the sid but for the RP experience, it would be nice if it could be for both.

  Bestatte:

                 Yes, i know some people don't deal in sid that's why i said city people, since they are the once that mostly deal in sid. however that being said, a damn good bow that you can only at the shop with SID goes a long way with them.  You can usually barter with them, not with sid itself but with items with cost you sid.

                   Any crafter that can get raw material from the wild would be able to survive agian i would assume they would go to a house and practice with the sid they make there before trying something moving on.  
If prices were doubled what all crafter would have to do is team up with another hunter PC in order to get materals cheaper.


Tailors can actually make quite alot of money, right now (harder if prices are doubled), true they need alot of money invested in it.   You would have to buy linen somewhere where it is cheap and sell it were it is rare....in otherwords find a "superior trade route".  I could crunch some numbers but i'm pretty sure that with a route i know, a tailor could make sid even with double pricing.

             Believe it or not armour crafters and weapon crafter would have it the easiest with prices going up on in the stores their skills would be sought after by PCs. Actually to the point where they might be getting into trouble with the big houses.  With money being tight all around they probably find PC (even calnned hunters) to sell them materials cheaper.  
_______________________________________________________
                 Here is the biggest problem with my idea:  if you haggle for an item for -2X here and travel far far away you won't be able to make 2X over there.
     But i think if you average out what a decent indy makes (without twinking) and make items cost appropriately, the game economy would work better and more realistically . This is just my suggestion, it would need some number crunching and probably a few special considerations but it could work.

           Anyways the reply posts to this idea are for some reason getting more vicious, i don't know why but i'd be happy to hear other suggestions.
I think Bestatte mentioned something about the economy needed to be reworked from the bottom up, not quick fixes, i'd like to hear your proposal.   I'd still glad for the feedback on this since i might actually take the time to crunch numbers later, maybe i'll come up with something better after some sleep. <end of rant>

[spawnloser]

It should be possible to make an independant crafter...the problem is not the cost of things being too low, the problem is the price of things being sold too high...and in general, people bringing in too much money.

Oh, and Dresan, it would be more difficult for everyone...but a tailor would be stopped, period.  Noone, without having some other way to make money, could be a tailor...and it is unrealistic for someone to be a wandering hunter/mercenary/tailor...really, if they are trying to be a tailor professionally.  They shouldn't have more than one source of income, but only one, their profession.  Doubling costs of linen would kill this concept entirely.

[sjanimal]

I'm probably going to turn this post into a seperate thread as well, however I want to raise one point that I think has not been said yet, but carries significant weight.

Let's have a good, serious talk about twinks.

Take me for example.  I'm not a twink.   I end up playing creepy, unemployable drunk longer scavengers once in a while (about every four characters or so.)

Now, in real live, I'm not a dumb dude.  I know how to forage, craft and hunt around enough to make about 200 sid per real life hour, if I'm really trying.  

Now, 200 sid is enough money for me to sit in a tavern all real life week and drink cheap ale, as well as to pay for other basic necessities.

So that's pretty much what I do with characters like that:  scrounge up a small chunk of change, and then spend it.  

I spend the rest of my time role-playing, engaging in sub-plots, having fun, and helping other people have fun.  If you make it harder for me to scrape that change together....let's say maybe four hours to get the same amount of living money, then that's not going to stop me from getting the money.  It's not going to force me to join a clan.  It's not going to cause me to role-play any better, and it's not going to contribute to the realism of the game to have me standing out at some choice spot in the desert and spamming the actions I need to make money.

What it will mean is three less hours of Nintendo that I can play a week.  And that will piss me off.

It won't stop twinks, either.  Say the word.  Twink.  Think about what that means.  That's a person who, even though he's in a great role-playing game with great role-players, still wants to be that tard who has the shiny +1 steel sword and will do what it takes to get it.  If you change the system on him, he'll just twink the new system.  You're not going to out-twink a twink.  

If you are serious about stopping twinks, and I think we should be, I think we ought to find someone on the staff who is as riled up about it as we are, and they should spend a couple of hours a week catching and correcting twinks.  They should be real polite and helpful the first time they catch someone, but by like the third time the twink should just flat out get banned or something.

Anyways, I think that's a much better solution.

[Xygax]

Please do not post anonymously, and then later post in the same thread as your usual self, agreeing with the anonymous poster.  This has been made clear to some people before, but perhaps a reminder is in order.  And it's worth mentioning in general, as well.

Thanks.

[Bug]

Dresan:

Lets take your standard mercenary. Some fighting profession on main and secondary class. ICly its a rough type who likes drinking, killing and drinking after killing. He likes shinyn weapons and tough armor. He doesnt care at all how to make any of those (even if he might have some appropriate skill) and if realy shouldn't, thats what crafters are there for.

Lets take your standard magicker (im not familiar with magickers, just going by basics), serving a noble house. He invests lots of time in researching and applying his magicks. Why should he go craft?

What im saying is, yes most characters will be able to go and find a second source of income. But what if its not right for my character? What if I want to roleplay a straight out kind who doesnt deviate from his profession to craft something? Think about real life. Lots of people theoretically can make stuff. How many of them go about doing it?

By some of the tweaks discussed here it will be either go and find a second (third, fourth) source of income or be the poor guy - and if you ever have to fight someone else, you'll simply die as their armor/shield/weapon will be much, much better. (there is skill of course... but quality of equipment matters)

[Pantoufle]

How can you make 200-800 coins for killing one single animal?  Presumably you've tanned the hide to increase it's value, smoked the meat, and possibly pawned off a few of the bones as well (and if you've successfully done all of that, then you're a pretty skilled individual who likely deserves a little pay back anyway).  But can this REALLY amount to 800 coins?  Can it amount to half that sum even?  I just don't know if that's true.  Though I admit, after selling my kill to buy some more arrows/water/whatever, I haven't really bothered to do the math to find out what the total profit is.

[Angela Christine]

     The answer to your problem is most people will be clanned, doing their sneaky or other money making venture on the side.   Everyone would (or should) have other souces of revenue.

Why?  That certainly is not realistic.  Sure, in real life I know a few people who have a regular 9-5 job and then also make home-made jewelry or other crafts to sell at a flea market in their free time, but only a few.  It is absurd that everyone should have other sources of revenue.

Forcing "most" people into clans is not a good solution.  Forcing someone into a clan who does not want to play in a clan will not improve anything, especially clans.  A clan isn't meant to be a steady paycheck used as a back-up to your primary interest.  Some clans recruiters/leaders will rightly get a little offended if you treat them like that.



Drastically changing the economy because a few people have more money than you think they should have doesn't make sense to me.  

Posts from a newbie that can't make a living are fairly common, when I was a newbie I had trouble making money and foraging was easier then.  Even experienced players sometimes have money trouble, particularly if they are trying a new type of role or suffer a misfortune.  My guess, and it is just a guess, is that it is at least as common for a PC to have a shortage of coin as it is for a PC to have an obvious excess of wealth.  Oddly enough a chracter that has resorted to selling his clothes to buy food isn't that attractive to most recruiters, and yes, I have seen a character do this.  :lol:  Ok, I've never seen a character so poor that they were eating their own fingers, but then I've only seen one NPC do it.


There are already plenty of good money sinks.  For example a chracter that is conspicously living above his birth-station will be subjected to more taxes, fines and "bribes" by the Templarate (this assumes that there are active PC Templars with the personality to  tax upstarts).  Eating and drinking in taverns is another good way to free oneself from excess cash, why eat your own cooking if you don't have to?  Then there are the crooked gambling games available in many taverns, ok, they aren't exactly crooked but like all gambling establishments the odds always favor the house.  Buying new clothes/gear is actually a pretty good way to bleed off some extra cash, since you'll probably get 1/4 what you paid (or less) when you sell it.  Personally, I've probably dropped thousands on that guy with the scale in Allanak, because I love to know what things weigh.  The increased water drain had definately hurt outdoorsy types, especially in Allanak where you also have to deal with the rising cost of water and water taxes.  

A few PCs make it past the money sinks to make enough money that they can engage in conspicuous consumption.  I don't see the problem.  Most of them are still not-rich.  A silk outfit doesn't make your rich, not if you are still sleeping on a tavern floor a 400-a-year hovel.  20,000 in the bank doesn't make you rich, not unless you also own your own house, shop and wagon.  Pretty clothes and a nice sword are not real wealth.


AC

[Armaddict]

THANK YOU, AC.

I stopped posting because the griping was annoying.  I...do not...see -any- reason whatsoever to change the way things are working with money.

All it has been is people -whining- that they want it changed because someone else is making more money when they think they shouldn't.

Me, I say, if you're in the game -just- to make as much money as possible...do whatever you want.  Twink it out.  Craft it up.  Kill all the rich people and loot their uber-leet equipment and sell it!  Then, you'll have -all- the money you want.  Yes, this is sarcasm.  If the game is becoming based around how much money you're making...that's right...I'm calling you a money-mongering twink.

Ugh.  These threads should be done and over with.  They are accomplishing nothing whatsoever, and were brought up over a stupid point anyway.

[Bug]

I just had a thought...

The main problem is PCs who sell so much stuff, yes?

Then why not limit the amount sid the BUYERS have?

Sure, you have all that stuff after the reboot, but because all sid reserves had been rebooted aswell, you cant sell it, d'oh.

You can play around with it, realy. Think that might help.

I already see limitations though, and will post them. This means that if one successful player sells all his stuff others wont be able to sell theirs at all.

Now, we can make buyers not want to spend more than 50% of their current sum on any single person.

That can even make sense, a shopkeeper wont lay out all his money for one person with lots of stuff, period.

[Xygax]

Shopkeepers DO have limited amounts of 'sid.

[Bug]

Thought so, wasn't sure though.

I was thinking more - while its nothing useful, just musing, here it is.

In real life most shops and companies also have very specific suppliers, and its very difficult for the new guy to find his way around.

This makes sense in the game too - BUT! The suppliers are the people who are using the reboot to make money?

The concept is good, but execution is senseless.

[Anonymous]

AC:

             Actually in Zalanthas, i could actually see most poeple have at least two jobs, i would think the pay for most is pretty crappy.  The jobs of some PCs are sometimes covers for other sneaky stuff they do.  While a tailor can make some sid off of what they do, they would probably still do other merchantile things.  Also for the indepentent tailor, life would be extra hard...most wear armour, others buy kadius, and a large portion are so poor they are half naked.  Unless you have a job with the houses, i would think having a person having one job is the exception not the norm, IM(humble)O.
                               

              I think your right about forcing people into clans though, some don't like clans, it's a playability issue and an important one.  If doubling prices and keeping the buying price the same wouldn't kill traveling merchants then this problem surely would.

                   
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            All people have done is presented ideas and argued and debated them, that's it.  No one forces you to read or to post,and there is no reason anything here should be getting any type of emotion going.  

              Alot of times when people bring their ideas or view points here they are immediatly dimissed as whines or complaint. While i would agree that some are not presented properly, but  i'd like to mention that it's ideas that have gotten the game to were it is at today.   There are alot of poeple with the mentality of 'things are fine the way they are' and they put down people how strive to change and try to improve.  If it it were left to people with that mentality we would still probably think the world was flat.  As good as things are, they can always improve and get better.  The beauty with Arm is that if we try something and it doesn't work we can always go back

                   Having said all that, i concede that my idea may not be the best solution but i don't regret defending it.

[Dresan]

Above post is mine...i forget that the GDB logs out automatically after some time

[Agent_137]

Please do not post anonymously, and then later post in the same thread as your usual self, agreeing with the anonymous poster.  This has been made clear to some people before, but perhaps a reminder is in order.  And it's worth mentioning in general, as well.

Thanks.

HAHAHAHAH.

What if I make two accounts, with different emails, and use them to agree with each other? Shit, I can get lots of emails, i'll have me an army of people to agree with me! I'll dominate ALL the votes! MWHAHAHAHAHAHA.

:roll:

[Angela Christine]

AC:

             Actually in Zalanthas, i could actually see most poeple have at least two jobs, i would think the pay for most is pretty crappy.  The jobs of some PCs are sometimes covers for other sneaky stuff they do.  While a tailor can make some sid off of what they do, they would probably still do other merchantile things.  Also for the indepentent tailor, life would be extra hard...most wear armour, others buy kadius, and a large portion are so poor they are half naked.  Unless you have a job with the houses, i would think having a person having one job is the exception not the norm, IM(humble)O.

Oh, I agree that independants often  have to scratch a living from multiple sources.  You might be a tailor, but when money is really tight you grab your glasshacker, salt sack, or lumber axe and do some manual labour to get you through.  Or you might be traveling between Tuluk and Allanak for some other reason, but do a trade a few obsidian blades for wood, since you are there anyway.  Many independants do a little hunting, in addition to something else.  But we weren't talking about independants.

     The answer to your problem is most people will be clanned, doing their sneaky or other money making venture on the side.   Everyone would (or should) have other souces of revenue.

Clanned people having another job on the side is odd.  For the most part Clans jobs are supposed to be good jobs, jobs that give you a better life.  For the vast majority of people a good job is one that you can raise a family on.  So as an employee of a wealthy noble or merchant house you should either be making enough money to rent a place to keep your children, or the house provides access to living quarters where your children can stay, possibly for a redection in pay.  Usually a job that makes it possible to raise a family will make a single person with no dependants quite comfortable.

Most PCs are odd in that they have no dependants: no children, siblings, parents or grandparents depending on them.  But most of the virtual population will have dependants, and need enough resources to provide for them.  So our dependentless PCs are a little better off than the average person.


AC

[X-D]

How can you make 200-800 coins for killing one single animal?

Pantoufle, I said 100-400 from killing an animal, the 200-800 was how much a crafter can make on 1 item.

Somebody else, Dresan I think also commented how this is a large sum of money and all, yes, it is, but it is also an amount that an ADVANCED hunter or crafter can make easily, starting out, you cannot, hell, a starting hunter is lucky to make 50 sid in an IC day, that barely covers water. I see more starting hunters kill everything in sight then old ones, why, old ones don't need too. Instead they can instruct other pc's, start businesses, employ people and so much more.

Now, keep in mind, sure, that indy hunter might be making tons, but he also takes more risks and has a lesser life expectancy then clanned pc's. The unexpected does happen on zalanthas, and normaly unclanned pc's have no safety net.

I don't see why people complain though, why should a hunter or crafter who has paid his/her dues, made it through the hard times and all that not be able to become wealthy and maybe sit back in the sanc and do nothing but drink for the rest of his life, or whatever, enjoy the fruits of his labers, it is what everybody else wants, regardless. Shrug.

[Bug]

I don't see why people complain though, why should a hunter or crafter who has paid his/her dues, made it through the hard times and all that not be able to become wealthy and maybe sit back in the sanc and do nothing but drink for the rest of his life, or whatever, enjoy the fruits of his labers, it is what everybody else wants, regardless. Shrug.

Amen.

[Trenidor]

Ok, I've been gone for a while, and missed the whole discussion, which means I haven't read anything past the first post....

Anyway, 2 things I say would help:

1. Describe how good pc to pc bartering is....I mean seriously, a thing that costs 10 sid, could be sold to a noble for 500 sid.

2.cut back on the amount of each item an NPC can hold.
When you have bulk stuff that you've got to sell to get money, wish up to get an imm to take over the specific NPC and barter with you...it's more fun, and it's easier to get good deals on things.