A very, very lame way to be introduced to this mud.

[Meatwad]

So this person who was in the game for very little time, did not have a job with a house, and had the clothes any other commoner would have just screamed out rich to the elf pc?  I hardly think so.  However newbie clothes = newbie sid, the out of game, out of character concept would tell this.  It should also be noted that NPCs to prety on PCs.  The thing is, if this elf was going to mug someone who looks just like a regular commoner, then they should be going after and killing millions of people, not this one pc.  And a character has NO IDEA AT ALL that something called a 'PC' has more money than something called an 'NPC'.  Those are out of character concepts, and could not motivate a character at all in the game.  You essentially disproved your own statement.  That's what I find wrong with your arguement, Ponchos.  And Cenghiz, it's been shown acceptable in the past to wish for a burglar to have vnpcs act accordingly when he robs a house, or just an imm to watch him do it, as well as having NPCs animated to intereact for specific purposes.  So if a person who needs to mug wants to have that role playing experience, and wants to target a commoner, it would be reasonable to wish for a commmoner npc to be animated to take part in the role playing.

[Armaddict]

You don't have to be rich to be a good target, bud.

[Meatwad]

Correct, you just have to be a newbie.

[Armaddict]

Way to go.  You got the point of the thread.

And yes, that's sarcasm.

[Bestatte]

You can assume that a PC is virtually mugging virtual people, and using the virtual sids they get from their virutal pockets to buy virtual food and water they need when they are virtually there while their player is logged out.

When the player is logged in, he will (rightly, in my opinion) go after non-virtual entities, because the character is coded to require non-virtual sids to buy non-virtual food and water.

I don't really think it's a good comparison, in other words.

[Bogre]

Of all the deaths I've had, I've been very disappointed to die in all of them. But, I've always found the RP of my next character to be intensely engrossing, and I've always seem to like the new character more than the previous one. Except for one, cause I'm really really bummed out about one of my deaths, but its ok, cause its gone, and I'm more or less over it. And now I'm playing another intensely fun character.

The whole point is to try again. Try again, make something thats easier to play, easier to survive with.

[Trenidor]

I didn't bother reading any of this other than the first page and a half and a post here and there....


Since I have no clue why this argument has taken place, I'm just going to say some of the ways I get out of looking like a n00b:

1. Change your clothes within the first 2 hrs of the game...that's what it's for, you get all that money, and free death time for 2 hrs, use it for what it's for.

2. Emote often to people that your char hasn't met. It lays out what some of your habits are, as well as alows your character to show personality, later on you can get lazy with those people (like me  )

3. Make LONG descs on your chars, to show description, and to show that you know how to make them.


Bla bla bla

If you are a n00b, you'll still wear around your n00b clothes. If you want to not be targeted by the jerks that kill n00bs, you should probably at least change your clothes and look good.

[Trenidor]

Now that I read some more on topic, I realized that you're talking about death now, and I'd like to say that I don't like most of my deaths (actually that's not true anymore)

In the begining, I hated to see characters die, then I had a really cool character that changed everything when they died. From then on I wanted to get another character like that one, comming really close some times, but then doing something stupid and geting me killed. After a while I've given up on trying to get a character as cool as that one, and have gone to trying out different things that seamed fun.

[Meatwad]

A fun trick would be to keep your newbie clothes somewhere, and when you get your uber awesome warrior skills maxxed out, change into them, emote poorly, and totally destroy anyone who tries to mess with you.  Ah, good times.

[Trenidor]

A fun trick would be to keep your newbie clothes somewhere, and when you get your uber awesome warrior skills maxxed out, change into them, emote poorly, and totally destroy anyone who tries to mess with you.  Ah, good times.

lol hey, that's what I Was planing on doing! I should post it on the thread about things I'd like to do some day.

[Forest Junkie]

It's been done.

[X-D]

Many times by many people.

[spawnloser]

Better idea...kill a newbie and dress in his/her newbie gear to draw the rest of the newbie-killers to you.

[wizturbo]

Elves aren't natural psychopaths anymore than humans are.  If there is a trend for them to be played in that manner, then it arises from players who don't understand that thievery does not equate to murder, and are frusturated because of the lack of role-play options for elves.

I'm glad that you are deciding to give it another try.  My first character died in the Gaj (and I mean IN the Gaj), in a manner just as inexcusable as yours did.  My first thoughts however were "Woah... this game really IS harsh!"

Welcome to Armageddon.

Sorry, but if I played an elven thief, I'd probably kill as many of my targets as possible if they saw me.  Why leave a witness alive to rat you out to the templarate?  But, most elven thieves are not muggers.  They are pickpockets, because being sneaky is far less dangerous then murdering people.

[EvilRoeSlade]

What does that have to do with the fact that elves aren't naturally psychopaths, and they're being screwed over by the current clan setup?

[spawnloser]

Nothing, ERS...in fact, it didn't from the beginning.  Elves can join clans all they want.  There are quite a few clans that will take them...just not the noble ones.

This is about someone feeling victimized as a newbie.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I was offering it as an explanation as to why elves seem to PK out of proportion to the rest of us.

I don't think elves are psychopaths, and I don't think the original poster should have anticipated that the elf would try to kill him.  If he was less flat-footed, he would have anticipated that anyone could potentially try to kill him, but there isn't any reason to think that an elf would do it more often than a human, despite assertions to the contrary.  That's why I don't think that it should be put in the documentation that elves are ruthless killers.

[spawnloser]

I was offering it as an explanation as to why elves seem to PK out of proportion to the rest of us.

I don't think elves are psychopaths, and I don't think the original poster should have anticipated that the elf would try to kill him.  If he was less flat-footed, he would have anticipated that anyone could potentially try to kill him, but there isn't any reason to think that an elf would do it more often than a human, despite assertions to the contrary.  That's why I don't think that it should be put in the documentation that elves are ruthless killers.

Oh, agreed wholeheartedly.  In fact, with the elven ideal of theft, they would probably kill less often than a human...there being little art to murder for the sake of theft.  Granted, anyone dragging you to a place not patrolled by 'the law' should be anticipated to want to stick a large blade between your shoulders.

[Quirk]

Sorry, but if I played an elven thief, I'd probably kill as many of my targets as possible if they saw me.  Why leave a witness alive to rat you out to the templarate?  But, most elven thieves are not muggers.  They are pickpockets, because being sneaky is far less dangerous then murdering people.

What makes you think a templar would care?

Unless your victim is someone important, or you're caught flagrantly committing a crime in a public place, you're unlikely to be sought after. Even if you are, you can afford to lie low for a bit on the proceeds and have your fame as a thief broadcast to every other elf in town. Killing is unnecessary and clumsy. More than that, people tend to have inhibitions about killing other people, and it would be nice to see them being RPed for a change, rather than seeing players fall into a hack-and-slasher's PK mentality.

If you don't leave your witnesses alive, who's going to back up your boasting of your thiefly skills? Remember that that is what an elven reputation rests on.

Quirk

[spawnloser]

Of course, it would be better if none of those roundears knew you had their stuff until later rather than as you clumsily lift it from them, but whatever.

[Xygax]

I read over Similion's initial account, and I've scanned some of this thread, but parts of it have decended into flaming and others have taken gentle tangents into other areas.

First, to address Sim's issue:

There is no such thing as a "newbie" bar.  Newbies "spawn" in a number of different places, not just one bar in one city, and then wander aimlessly and beyond the understanding of even the finest minds.  No player can assume you're a newbie simply because you happen to be sitting in a particular tavern.

Furthermore, because this is an RPI mud, we -expect- the players NOT to take out-of-character concerns/constraints/etc. into account when playing their roles.  Often, this leads to a rather brutal environment for new players, something that I'm afraid no level of documentation is likely to truly prepare you for.  The word "harsh" occurs in twenty different documents in our help system, and the word "brutal" appears in ten (and I'm not even bothering to count how many individual occurences there are .  I'm not sure the issue can be stated more strongly.

All that said, I do think we as the staff do have some opportunities to improve the introduction that newbies recieve, and we are always discussing this issue amongst ourselves and evaluating player feedback.  The best way to provide feedback on things like this is to mail mud@ginka.armageddon.org directly, rather than to post your frustrated remarks on the GDB...  Careless posting of IC events on this board taints the RP environment for everyone.

Was the player who killed you wrong?  Well, perhaps it depends on what your definition of wrong is.  Strictly speaking, he doesn't seem to have committed any major infractions or violated any explicit rules of the mud, which is why a lot of the other posts in this thread are arguing in favor of his actions.  I think that's a bit black-and-white: in the larger vision of the mud, it's probably better if the veterans try their best to provide a playable environment for new players....  if this is not within your character's nature, veteran, then perhaps you might consider picking another target for your predatory activities, at least until the new player has had a chance to gain his bearings.  I know that this is at odds with my previous remarks, and the balance is difficult, but it's also difficult to avoid the fact that you might be preying on the newbie OOCly rather than ICly.  There is definitely a sense in this case (and in other cases I've encountered of veterans preying on newbies) of the veteran exploiting his OOC knowledge of the stamina code (and his OOC knowledge based on your clothing, your location, your poor emoting, etc. -- whatever the indicator might be -- that you're a new player), to put you into a position that you could not OOCly anticipate.

If such OOC analysis occured, then this is not good RP on the veteran's part, by any stretch.  And if it could be firmly proven, I would frown on play like this rather strongly.

I'd like to see more veterans feel encouraged to find ways to positively interact with new players...  that doesn't mean giving them coins, items, or jobs...  it just means RPing -with- them (and hopefully, at least for a few days, not -against- them), giving them an idea of what is expected, and maybe even (Tek forbid) directing them to helpers/documentation/etc. with the OOC command.  I'd like to see that, but it isn't required.  And this is definitely -not- your grandmother's Diku MUD.  There's no Temple, no Rooks and Pawns to hack-n-slash kill, and no free lunch/free items/free help.  Even the people who are helping you (the elf that gave you 30 'sid) are probably trying to get something from you, too...  sometimes it's a mutually helpful relationship.  Usually they're trying to screw you over.

-- X

[Geekfreak]

My advice:

1. Be a human
2. Buy protective stuff
3. Buy yourself a nice weapon
4. Try not to speak to anyone who is alone or isn't writing good emotes; chances are, they may be a noob hunter
5. Try to get a job; if your'e with a house, anyone will think twice before they try killing you.

Folow these few steps and  you might survive in Zalanthas. Remember, those in Zalanthas are tough, they have to be in order to survive in the harsh environment!

-GF

[sarahjc]

SO I typed all this out before I saw how long this thread was.. But I put in the effort so. I am going to say it.

I could think of worse ways to die.. Also keep in mind that this person may be a a newbie himself. Maybe not as new as you, but a newbie in the sense of not fully grasping the right and wrong of things.  Most of the seasoned players know better.. and not attack newbies and then again, some are just mean.

Regardless, I don't see the big deal, he did lead you (with some Rp I would think) out of the city, he did run you down (With some Rp I would think). And he was an elf.. Never trust elves.. Nothing he did was twinkish or out of Character for a raiding elf.

So the "Can't keep up, now you must die!" line was a bit much, he could have thought of something more creative, but a cheesy saying does not a poor roleplayer make. The fact that he sat and talked with you and lured you out of the city, and bothered to say something before he killed you is probably a bit more than most get.. Maybe it would have been a better death had he have said, "I am going to kill you now so that I can take your weapons and whatever coin you may have." But he didn't. shrug.. I don't ask how your RP was, because you are a newbie.. and the players should be setting the example for you.. Not the other way around.

Basically someone welcomed you into just how difficult and harsh this game is, and that you can trust no-one. People will kill you for your shoes.. He may have seen piece of gear that you had on, and thought.. "Hrm.. Lets see if he wants to go hunting..I could use a nice pair of spiked gauntlets." Or saw you walk into a strange bar looking confused and thought.. "He must be from one of the local villages."

Is he taking advantage of the fact that you are a newbie? Maybe, I don't know. But more so, he is taking advantage of the PC. And now you know that when an elf asks you to go hunting alone.. even if you are an elf yourself.. You should not go.

Also you said that you were playing a half elf.. They are hated by both Humans and Elves.. Nobody is befriending -you-.. People follow the docs when it comes to prejudices in this game, I would read the ones on social class very carefully and expect people to follow them. Granted your PC should be eager to make friends, but know better than to trust people.. -You-  have been kicked around and discriminated against your whole life. If one player decided to be nice to you and give you a bit of coin, well that was lucky for you.

I am sorry that you had dirt kicked in your face your first time out,  That does stink. And if you are a clear Newbie, fumbling with the sit command.. It may be a bit cruel even. But.. You did learn something.. So.. an all bad experience.. Maybe not. I say role with it and move on to the next PC.. Whatever you do.. Do -not try to avenge your last PC's death.

Is newbie killing OK? Well, I think it depends on how it is done. I would rather that my first PC have been killed at the hands of another player, with some cool RP, then an NPC guard like she was.

Just my take on it.