A very, very lame way to be introduced to this mud.

[Quirk]

I think a few points should be made about "newbies".

If you're referring to "newbie" as a new player rather than a new character, Simillion, it's important to note that there is practically no way of telling a new player with a new character and an old player with a new character apart. If I die, make a new warrior or assassin or Krathi and point to 'Nak on the map, I arrive in the Gaj dormitory looking much the same as any other newbie. Oh, my description might be a little grittier and more Zalanthan than some newbies' descriptions will be, but that is far from an infallible sign. Once a new character has found his way to the Bazaar and bought himself a set of new clothing, there is no easily obvious way to spot that he is a new character. Conversely, a character with a number of days played may still be at least partly in newbie clothing through lacking funds to replace it with.

Location is surely no sign. The Gaj is a rough and gritty tavern, and attracts all manner of low lifes. Every 'Nakki character starts there, save the 'Rinthers, and from there they settle on other taverns depending on their place in the social scale. I would never assume, seeing a PC in the Gaj, that they were a newbie.

The only readily apparent way to spot a newbie is via their mistakes, or their lack of emoting. If you read the docs and helpfiles in some depth before you started the game, you probably won't make as many of those mistakes, and may even look like an experienced player. Hence, someone planning to trick your character may well be fooled into thinking you less of a newbie than you are.

That said, I don't think it's a terribly good sign of elven RP to lure someone out into the desert and kill them. Elves take pride in their cleverness in scamming others, but killing them when all that was needed was to part them from their gear lends a clumsy touch. Then again, the person playing the elf may be somewhat new themselves.

Don't be daunted. I have to confess it took me about seven characters to get into Arm, and some of those early ones were killed every bit as cheaply as you were. The initial learning curve is harsh, but it is worth undergoing.

Quirk

[Carnage]

Thank you, Vissa. You pretty much echo all of my main points.  I'm glad you enjoy the mud, and frankly, you convinced me to give it another (more cautious) try.

And another thing. At least I can get even with that guy in one way. I was completely sidless. HAHA! Take that, chump. All he got was my bloody clothes. :p

I'll gladly play an older brother or whatever to help you out and keep an eye out if you like.

Consider it my good deed of the year.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Carnage is a el...

Wait, no, no. Sorry. Nevermind.

:twisted:

[Bestatte]

It's a shame the elf didn't emote after he had you defenseless and exhausted in the desert, when he had the perfect opportunity to turn it into an awesome death scene. Other than that, I honestly don't see any problem with the situation.

It is not his responsibility to "help" you if you haven't first helped yourself by reading the docs, finding a helper to ask "are elves REALLY scoundrels and thieves, or do they just put that in the docs like every other elf-hating game does?"

He -did- RP the entire interaction up to the point where he started chasing you around the desert, so I'd say he did fine with that. Did you try to "flee east" or in whatever direction was back to the gates when you realized you were in combat? Did you try emoting with him during combat (you mentioned it seemed to take awhile before your character died, so you would've had time to do this) - such as begging for your life and offering to give him whatever he wanted? Or even shouting "HELP!" - anything? I'm not accusing you of not doing this - I'm only asking if you did - if you made it clear that you wanted some interaction, by doing some of the interaction yourself during the battle.

Elves are not trusted in the world of Zalanthas. This is a fact that is documented many times in many of the help-files, intro pages, newbie pages, "coming from other games" pages, and elsewhere.

Half-elves are considered scum, lower than the low, to the general public, and are often marked as "fair game" whether a newbie half-elf or a 30-day half-elf. This is also clearly documented.

While I'm not discounting AT ALL the fact that your character's killer had a chance to make your PC's death a FUN and memorable tragedy, I do feel the need to point out that the responsibility to understand and learn about the "social status" of your PC and the elf's PC rests on your shoulders, and no one else's. If you didn't realize that elves shouldn't be trusted, then you have only yourself to blame.

Now - if that elf does nothing else but sit in the Gaj waiting for newbies to spawn in the sleeping chamber then yeah - he's a twink and should be dealt with harshly by the staff. But nowhere did you mention or even imply any such knowledge about this elf PC. For all you know this might've been his very first PK. Or maybe he saw a stupid half-elf who trusts elves and deserves to die because he's an abomination of nature. The point is, you don't know. And it's unfair to your PC's killer to make assumptions like that about his player.

My suggestion would be to send a note to mud@armageddon.org and ask -politely- if the death of your PC was legit, or if it was a twinked death. They can look into it.

As for zmud - the shareware version allows you to set your buffer to I believe up to 10,000 lines. So if you want to "capture" something that already happened you should be able to do so with no trouble at all.

Don't give up - death is a part of the game, it is -not- a PK game but PK is something everyone falls victim to eventually - and sometimes often. Out of the 13 characters I've played so far, ONE of them was not killed by another PC. One. I've questioned 2 of those PKs, the rest I swore and stomped my feet and cried and vented and bitched and moaned about on my side of the computer monitor, but knew ultimately that it's just how things go sometimes and learned to look forward to the more "interesting" deaths.

I hope you will come to feel this way as well.

[Simillion]

Thanks to everyone for the intelligent replies. I just have a few things to say in response.

1.) I know that making this message board post was not the right thing to do about the situation now. Next time, it won't happen of course.

2.) I know that the elf could have been doing perfectly acceptable roleplay, and that I don't have adequate information. Therefore, I mailed the mud.

3.) I still strongly believe that the docs do NOT sufficiently prepare a newbie for this kind of thing. Yes, they say not to trust elves. Yet, they say to trust them in the half-elf doc. It doesn't say as strongly as it should something like, "Elves are known to ruthlessly kill commoners, if only for the clothes on their back." If it had said something along these lines, I might have been more cautious. I had READ all of these docs. To say "it's perfectly clear to me that elves are dangerous," means only that you've played long enough to hear about or be victim to elves like this.

If anything results from this topic, I hope that it's the addition of a sentence like this. A sentence like "Elves are known to ruthlessly kill" is now a fact, and I think most people would find it acceptable. And it will help.

4.)To drive my point home, so far I've heard things like this:

Elves are not trusted in the world of Zalanthas. This is a fact that is documented many times in many of the help-files, intro pages, newbie pages, "coming from other games" pages, and elsewhere.

I read the docs, Bestatte.

Also, everyone is recommended to read ALL of the docs before entering the game and seek a helper to get any questions answered that they are allowed. Read all of the docs and helpfiles. There is plenty of information in there that says that elves are not trusted by anyone...including other elves.

Once again, that "elves are not trusted." I don't trust my dad, but is he going to kill me in the desert? Not likely. Needs stronger wording.

5.) Once again, I'm sticking with the game and I've learned a lot.

I have no more time and I got to go.

[jhunter]

More acurately...

-People- are known to ruthlessly kill in the world of Zalanthas.

Elves are not to be trusted.

*shrugs*

[The Lonely Hunter]

First off, welcome to Armageddon!

The only thing I would like to comment on is that you said 'it doesnt prepare newbies for murder'...if I remember right.

If you take a look at the Armageddon banner, I beleave Murder is one of the keywords. =)

Anyway, just a comment and I wish you the best.  If you need any help, feel free to contact any of the helpers listed on the web site.

[Bestatte]

Yeah what jhunter said.

People, of every race and skillset, are KNOWN to do what they need in ordered to survive. People of upper cultural status will arrange murders, do some of the killing themselves, send their pet soldiers out to accuse a hated enemy of some crime just to see them duke it out with a mekillot in the arena, blah blah blah.

The game docs - not the elf-specific docs - state most emphatically that your character is likely to end up dead, that murders and assassinations happen.

The elf docs specificy that elves are not to be trusted. Combine "ALL PEOPLE ARE SUSPECT REGARDING ASSASSINATIONS" with "ALL ELVES ARE UNTRUSTWORTHY" and I don't see how you can possibly come ot the conclusion that some elves can be trusted, upon meeting them for the first time, of NOT wanting your ass in a sling.

The half-elf docs do -not- say that half-elves will trust elves. They say that half-elves will try to fit in with either the elven or the human culture. Half-elves are not stupid. They know that elves cannot be trusted to keep them alive. They know that IF they wanted to fit in with the elven society that they would have to jump through hoops, risk death, risk murder, risk betrayal, risk hatred - to succeed.

Wanting to fit in does not equal automatic trust. It is a bad idea to take a single line of the docs and interpret it to suit your needs, when the whole rest of the documentation clearly reflects a whole different ballgame.

[EvilRoeSlade]

3.) I still strongly believe that the docs do NOT sufficiently prepare a newbie for this kind of thing. Yes, they say not to trust elves. Yet, they say to trust them in the half-elf doc. It doesn't say as strongly as it should something like, "Elves are known to ruthlessly kill commoners, if only for the clothes on their back." If it had said something along these lines, I might have been more cautious. I had READ all of these docs. To say "it's perfectly clear to me that elves are dangerous," means only that you've played long enough to hear about or be victim to elves like this.

Elves aren't natural psychopaths anymore than humans are.  If there is a trend for them to be played in that manner, then it arises from players who don't understand that thievery does not equate to murder, and are frusturated because of the lack of role-play options for elves.

I'm glad that you are deciding to give it another try.  My first character died in the Gaj (and I mean IN the Gaj), in a manner just as inexcusable as yours did.  My first thoughts however were "Woah... this game really IS harsh!"

Welcome to Armageddon.

[Simillion]

I stand by my points. I read the docs and still did not feel prepared for this. Many other people have had the same experience of being surprised by the true "harshess" of this mud. Being surprised means they were not prepared for it.

And yes, I was prepared for a murderous and bloodthirsty environment. I would expect to be murdered in a second if I felt that I in some minimal way deserved it. However, to be deceived and tricked, and murdered out of the blue, was a surprise.

And finally I just don't think that jhunter, Bestatte, and people saying similar things to me have any idea what I'm trying to say.

The point is not my personal loss anymore; I got over that. The point is that newbies who play this game are in for a big surprise, even if they read the docs. All of them. The point is, maybe, just maybe the docs can be clarified and reworded so that such a surprise is reduced, and the discouragement newbies feel after dying is reduced. I think my example and other people's (vissa, EvilRoeSlade, I'll use you as examples here) are good enough to show that the docs don't sufficiently prepare players. I am a reasonably smart person, and I read all of the elven and half-elven, along with several other RP docs. Yet, I was surprised.

Why are the docs misleading? Well, maybe because the GM's want to make the mud more attractive. Certainly, a doc saying "This is a mud where you're going to likely be killed for absolutely no perceivable reason except for the monetary gain of your murderer" will just turn away more players than the existing docs already probably do. But false advertising, which is what I alluded to when I said "if this is just a PK mud, etc." is even WORSE than scary docs.

I know this isn't a PK mud, and I know this mud is supposed to be harsh. I wouldn't want it any other way. But the feeling of surprise, at having felt one way about the mud and realizing it was much different, is NOT a pleasant feeling. It's an unpleasant feeling that will turn away new players, as it almost turned me away. And the solution, the simple solution, would be to reword the docs here and there to more accurately describe the mud. That's all I ask.

[Cenghiz]

Sorry for hissing, then. Welcome to Armageddon.
Wish we meet and have some fine RP. See you.

[Bestatte]

Sim, we -are- understanding what you're saying. We disagree with you. Of course the staff isn't gonna put in the docs anything even remotely resembling "You are likely to get killed your first day in" - not because it's bad press, but because it isn't true. You are -not- likely to get killed your first day in. You are -not- likely to get murdered for no reason whatsoever. That is a PK game. Arm is not that.

They -do- warn you that your character WILL die. They -do- warn you that your first character will -probably- die rather quickly. They are very clear on this. They also warn you in plain english:

# One, roleplaying is central to the environment and is not considered an option by the creators of the world. It is a requirement. If you do not want to roleplay, this is not the game for you.
# Two, life is hard. There are no free lunches on Zalanthas. There aren't even free drinks of water. It is likely that you will die, and if you are unlucky or unintelligent you will die very fast. Only the fittest live long enough to retire in comfort at the end of their careers.
# Three, sometimes people are nasty. There are no rules against being mean to others that you meet, be it cheating, stealing, killing, swindling, or otherwise making a fool out of them as long as the meanness is in-character (IC).
# Four, complaints of unfairness on the part of other players will not be given an audience. If you think another character was mean to you, you're most likely right.

If you think another character was mean to you, you're most likely right. Your thread subject heading implies that you received a "lame" intro to the game. You received a RPed intro to the game, including the opportunity to interact, learn about perception of character types, get outside the city, and die. You received more in that experience than many other new players receive. And you claim it was lame. I - and others - disagree.

[spawnloser]

It was interaction...

Go read the 'worst deaths' thread from beginning to end if you want to see a decent selection of lame deaths...some of them being people's first characters and their introductions to the mud.

Seriously, I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but the docs, I feel, do adequetely prepare you.  What Bestatte just quoted, right there, is all that is needed.  You simply underestimated it.  I thought the game was going to be MORE harsh than it was when I joined up.

Still, good luck on your next.

[Anonymous]

I think this thread needs to die about now..

[Thad]

First. I'm going to say that I have not read through this complete thread, 5 pages in under 20 hours...wow.

So, at the risk of repeating anybody, my views.

First, My char does NOT know that yours is new to the world, know why? Because, he is NOT new to the world.

I may or may not know that YOU as a player are new to the game, if I do know, I MAY, try to be basicly nice...UNLESS it goes against IC to do so.

Now, the elf in question may have had some boring thing to say, maybe even thin in some ways, and the player MAY have known the mark was new...but that does not matter, his actions as an elf were completly IC according to docs. I'd have done the exact same things if I'd been playing that sort of char...hell, I have.

This is NOT a newbie friendly mud and I hope that it never becomes one, no matter how much I would like the player base to expand. I think the steep learning curve is a GOOD thing, the type of player who gives up on the first death simply is not the type who is fit for this game or the harsh world of Zalanthas. They will not continue to make it a harsh place. No matter what I think of some people on the GDB, these same people are GOOd for the game, I'd name them, but I'm sure they know who thay are.


To finish. Though I cannot find it at the moment, my fav and most quoted section of the docs is the part that reads.

"If you think that somebody is being mean to you, they probly are, complaints of unfairness will not be heard" Or something of the sort.

I actually cringed at all the people that said mud should be mailed with logs..yadda yadda. Elf, acts like an elf, takes advantage/cheats/kills somebody else with little risk to himself...THIS IS ELF!!! check the docs.

[X-D]

And yes, I was prepared for a murderous and bloodthirsty environment. I would expect to be murdered in a second if I felt that I in some minimal way deserved it. However, to be deceived and tricked, and murdered out of the blue, was a surprise.

Dude, you said you read the docs....HE WAS AN ELF!!!
Out of the blue...BOGGLE.....ELF man ELF!! Read the docs again!

[Meatwad]

That was a truly valueable contribution X-D.  especially since it has been made and debated to death already.

[X-D]

Shrug, too long of a thread to wade through the whole thing, point remains...ELF..if he read the docs and understood them then there would BE no thread Meatwad. He did not or did not believe them, and bitches about bad RP when in all it was GOOD rp. Bah.

And BTW, contributions such as your last are what get flames started.

Technicly, since it was a direct attack on my opinion/post with nothing to add in and of itself, I think it qualifies as a flame. JMHO.

[ashyom]

The original poster had a valid complaint, and many players have brought up several valid, good points to refute that.  They were, I see, helpful, thoughtful, and very well said.  However, although I haven't seen outright flaming, there were a few posts that were borderline - and I don't feel that is a good attitude to show to new players that we're working on bringing to the mud.  Keep it civil.

Thanks
Ashyom

[Angela Christine]

That said, I don't think it's a terribly good sign of elven RP to lure someone out into the desert and kill them. Elves take pride in their cleverness in scamming others, but killing them when all that was needed was to part them from their gear lends a clumsy touch.

I agree.   Most muggers are not also murderers.  Allanak has half a million people, so IC there is little reason to fear some nobody with no tribe, no connections, no position, and no money (for bribing lawmen).  

For elves successful scams are something to be proud of, so having a victim publically complaining about how he was scammed is delightful.  Among elves (the only people who really matter to an elf) publicity will increase the prestige of the elf who pulled off the scheme, and lower the prestige of the person who got scammed.


OOC the population is smaller, so being known as a thief can make it harder to get away with things in the future.  But if you are an elf, you are already known to be a thief by default.  It is supposed to be challenging to be a sucessfull, artful elf.  


AC

[EvilRoeSlade]

I find myself being reminded of Thief: The Dark Project.  If you set the difficulty level to hard, then you'll always get the following mission objective.

A true professional never leaves a mess:  Don't kill anyone!

I'm not against killing, because I think there needs to be more killing.  But I also think that there needs to be more -reasons- to kill.  For a raider, the less you want to intimidate as much as possible and fight as little as possible.

[Anarchy]

My only real problem with Armageddon is the fact people kill other PCs far too much in simple random muggings, often when its not called for, ok, so you trapped someone, knock them out, take their backpack, LEAVE the PC alive, chances are they spent a good few hours working on that app and really dont like the idea of someone killing them in the first hour of playing. If you call the "Oh, but he will go to the templars" you can do, one or all three things 1) Bribe a templar, or 2) say he is lying, unless the templar wants to kill you, your most likely to have better standing then your victim 3) Hide out in your little slime hole for a few days, out of sight, out of mind.

[Meatwad]

I don't have a problem with people killing to survive, but it is rather obvious that they target PCs intead of npcs or vnpcs.  PCs are a tiny minority, so with them being targeted most often that is obviously wrong, and something OOC is going on.  So if playing a raider, I would suggest wishing for a npc to be loaded, or one to be animated.  After all, you wouldn't know who is a real person and who isn't if you were actually living on Zalanthas.

[Cenghiz]

Wishing up for a NPC would be accepted?

[PonchosAreGoodPonchosCanB]

What's wrong with PCs preying on PCs if NPCs and vNPCs prey on other NPCs/vNPCs in the virtual world? Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Not to mention there's the fact that NPCs aren't as rich as PCs usually so PCs would be targeted more often due to their wealth. Not many people in game have jobs serving one of the great Houses otherwise well, nobody would be starving, etc. Yet a high proportion of PCs have jobs with these Houses. So it seems logical that PCs would fall prey to muggings more often then not. Of course, I'm sure we could ask the imms to write up a script with random muggings against PCs while encouraging other PCs to mug NPCs more often as well to balance it all out (they would probably still target PCs as PCs are richer therefore stronger gains).