A very, very lame way to be introduced to this mud.

[Simillion]

Before I start, a disclaimer: this post is not meant to sound whiney. I do like Armageddon and want it to improve, but I just don't think it's in a state right now where it's worth me spending time playing it. Now, please read on.

I was a clueless half-elf ranger, but not clueless in that I had no idea how to be a decent ranger, rather, clueless as in I was way, way too trusting. Basically, I was walking out of the Gaj when an elf that I thought was being friendly (he was obviously looking for easy prey there) started a little conversation with me at the bar. In hindsight, it was fairly clear that he was up to no good, but I had no idea at the time. He proceeded to take me out of the city and kill me, slowly (he wasn't that great of a fighter, just better equipped). Why kill me? Absolutely no reason; he got me tired enough that I couldn't run and then just killed me, after saying, "You can't keep up? THEN YOU MUST DIE!" Yeah, real great reason for murder, obviously a lame excuse for lame role-player. If anyone suggests there was some real RP reason besides him hunting noobs, you're dead wrong. I don't know what exactly motivates people on Armageddon to slaughter noobs this way, but I'd like to quote a page on the website as a lesson to that nameless elf.

Most Zalanthans are very aware of their ecological surroundings.  Though the reasons might not be altruistic, they realize the danger of overhunting.  If someone lives by tanning the hides of tregils, and s/he kills every tregil in the area and sells the hides she made, s/he will gain an immediate windfall, yes.  But how will s/he make a living now?

Sure, he might be making good money by slaughtering noobs in the Gaj now, but what happens when those noobs get discouraged and leave? No more prey for him, no more new players on the mud, period.

Goodbye Armageddon.

[Meatwad]

I seriously hope the staff looks into this.

[Simillion]

Sadly, I couldn't save a log of the event. Believe me, I tried, but I was using a shareware version of Zmud that didn't keep a buffer and couldn't do backlogging. Never using that program again.

[Mr.Camel]

Yes, I hope so aswell. While I sympathize with you, Similion, this would have been better handled with a mail to the MUD.
Anyhow, don't let something like that make you miss out on something as great as ArmageddonMUD.

[Gorobei]

Keep in mind, Sim, that this is a free mud.  There are no screening processes other that the character application, so anyone who's passed ninth grade english and has a memory longer than a day can play.  This, coupled with the unfortunate effect of the internet on normally upright citizens of the world, means that there will be jackholes wandering the MUD, looking for someone to piss off.  They visit every internet community that you can find.
Your experience isn't normal for Armageddon, as anyone here would assure you.  Characters do die by the hands of other players, but the vast majority of these deaths are well-played and have much more depth.

[da mitey warrior]

It's really the nature of the game.  Armageddon is harsh.  HARSH.  You quickly learn not to trust anyone in the game.   And if you don't know what you are doing you will die quickly.

What that other person did wasn't the best RP ever, but it wasn't strictly wrong.  Killing someone who's foolish enough to trust an elf and let himself get put into such a position by an elf is fair game.  I'm not saying you the player were a fool, you're just a newbie.  The elf had plenty of reason to kill you, your money for one, and to prove that he was "better" than you by tricking you is another.  The fact that your character was a half-breed made it even more compelling for him.  

(it wasn't me, btw)

If you want to play the game and live I'd suggest the following.

1. Make a human.
2. Don't trust anyone with your life, especially elves.
3. Make a warrior.  Maybe join a clan if that's your thing.
4. Don't worry if you die like that a few times starting out.

[flurry]

Silimillion

If you haven't already, I recommend you email mud@ginka.armageddon.org to explain what happened.   Even just cut and paste what you posted here.   That way you'll know the the right people will see it in a timely manner.

I do sympathize with you.   That's a tactic that, while maybe not technically code abuse, I don't really respect much.   And if used specifically because the target is obviously a new player, then it's simply indefensible.

I hope that you'll decide at some point to give the MUD another chance.

[Armaddict]

It happens all the time.  It's how some people -live-.  By taking from others.

I fail to see the huge problem.  Because he didn't grant you mercy?  Because he fooled you into leaving the gates?

You followed what's obviously a -raider- there, and not only that, let yourself follow behind him to the point you couldn't run away.  This is his fault?

I realize it may seem unfair.  But you were the prey, and you were hunted.  Live and learn.

[bioproject]

I, really, have to say, though, try playing any other MUD.  The thing I like about Armageddon is that, generally, your characters don't die...ALL THE TIME.

[Armaddict]

They don't?

You people must be playing the soft part of the game.  Cushy like teddy bears.

[Simillion]

It happens all the time.  It's how some people -live-.  By taking from others.

I fail to see the huge problem.  Because he didn't grant you mercy?  Because he fooled you into leaving the gates?

You followed what's obviously a -raider- there, and not only that, let yourself follow behind him to the point you couldn't run away.  This is his fault?

I realize it may seem unfair.  But you were the prey, and you were hunted.  Live and learn.

Haha. Your post amuses me.

There's a critical flaw in your argument that I was simply "prey;" that is, people in the Gaj are never simply prey. If I was out in the desert to begin with, then I wouldn't even have made this post. But I was in a bar, a "Newbie" bar. Let me see if I can make you understand.

In real life, there is no such thing as a place where "newbies" gather. The equivalent of that would be going to kindergartens and picking up 5 year olds to slaughter and take lunch money from.

Similarly, in Allanak, the Gaj is just a bar where people start out. If the game was a realistic environment, the people there would be just as knowing as people in any other part of the world. However, they are not; they're newbies, which means that experienced players should take this into consideration. Somehow, this elf ICly knew that I would be unable to know better. That makes absolutely no sense; it's bad RP.

I think it just comes down to that. Bad RP. You have no point at all, Armaddict.

[Armaddict]

Yes, I do.

You were in the Gaj.  Correct.  This is not a 'safe-haven' where people congregate because they cannot be fooled here.

You were fooled, fair and square.  You were duped.  You followed someone to where you were vulnerable, based on their words.  It's what elves, as well as just about anyone who's scum who's trying to make their living off of -you-, do.

There is no 'newbie zone'.  It is frowned upon to take advantage of newbies, yes.  But as the mudconnector states, this is -not- a newbie friendly mud.  You will die, many times, in the beginning.  Do not think that just because you are a newbie, you will not have to deal with the harshness of armageddon.

Once again, you were simply prey.  You fell for it.  Don't whine about his 'taking advantage of a newbie'.  It may not have even been apparent to him that you -were- a newbie.  And next time, keep your eyes a little more open.  Everyone is out for their own benefit.

Your post screaming 'bad rp' at this guy for killing you, when you took every step to help him do it....amuses me.

[Meatwad]

Armaddict is newbie friendly's antithesis.

[Beaner]

I am not as sure your murder is as isolated and rare as people would like to believe. I think it's important that incidents like this be publicized rather than being sent as solitary complaints to the mud; I know that in the short amount of time that I have been playing I have been exposed to similar experiences, though maybe not of such a great magnitude. I've said it before and I'll say it again: This mud is newbie unfriendly. Every time I relate some new discouraging experience or another in the IRC room or with a game helper, the only response I get is the same failed attempt at consolation: "well, that's how you learn in this game." Though it is true that every time my character has died I've made a new one, I have to wonder what it is that continues to draw me back.

The fact remains that every time I enter Zalanthas again I find myself alone and lost, getting along a bit farther each time, immersing myself deeper into the world inch by inch. The learning experience in this game is more akin to bootcamp than anything most anyone would voluntarily want to experience, at least, that is the way it's been for me--I'm not sure about other people, maybe I am just another unlucky one. In the end I guess only the toughest and most perseverant survive, and when they get to that point, like our lovely elf that killed you, they are so hardened and so proud that they really don't believe they have any obligation to newbies. The nature of the setting is nothing but a convenient way to justify an act that is motivated by nothing more than greed, cruelty, and twinkiness.

I feel I am beating a dead horse, expounding on points you basically covered, so I guess I can sum all this up with this sentence: I sympathize with you, and I myself am not sure how much longer I can endure the abuse inherent to this game.

[Meatwad]

It would be so much nicer if people would simply use emotes instead of hitting kill as fast as their adhd lets them.  It would be wonderful, at least for me, to be mugged in the game with emotes instead of the combat system.  It would then be a positive experience for both, albeit negative on one's bank account.  Plus the character would live on, having experiences with others about the robbery, instead of just having a player get frustrated and make a new character.  At least Beaner was encouraging to this new player, rather than shrugging off the person's experience.

[Khorm]

I'd like to point out that the Gaj isn't a "newbie" bar, it's a grungy place where your typical low-life commoner hangs out for whatever reason.. it just happens to be the spot where new characters spawn.

I've played characters that would jump on an easy kill in a heartbeat, and it sounds like this elf was doing the exact same thing. While the RP you saw during the event may not have been flawless, you have to consider that there are thoughts and motivations behind nearly every character in game.. he may've been starving or low on obsidian, he may've been ordered to kill a person to join some crazy 'rinth gang, you'll never know.

Please note that I'm not just writing off what happened as alright, it's just as likely that he's a "bad" player.. although those people tend to be few and far between.

[Simillion]

Yes, I do.

You were in the Gaj.  Correct.  This is not a 'safe-haven' where people congregate because they cannot be fooled here.

Did I say safe-haven? No. You didn't read my post well enough. My point is that it is NOT a safe-haven. My point is that it is a bar, like any other bar should be. But, it's a fact that it's where newbies spawn in. It's where newbies go and congregate, because they have to in order to log out safely.

I don't WANT to make it into a safe-haven, I just would rather people not HUNT there. It makes no goddamn sense for "raiders" to hunt at a freakin' bar. That's what RAPISTS do, and in case you didn't notice my allusion, PEDOPHILES do at SCHOOLS. And finally, it makes no sense that raiders would know ICly that "newbies" go there. "Newbie" itself is an OOC, not an IC concept.

Read my posts just a LITTLE more carefully before you go out and make an ass out of yourself. And, to add an endnote, I wonder if it was you.

Edit: Thank you, Khorm! You know what I meant. Gaj isn't a "newbie bar." Someone gets it, thank god.

[Armaddict]

*puts his head in his hand, shaking it with a sigh*

Nevermind.  You don't get the point.  I'll go on and let you wallow in your newbie misery.  I've done it.  Most people did.

The cruelty and harshness of this game is exactly what makes it appealing to at least -some- of the playerbase, if not most.

But, yes, anyway...it's obvious you're not listening, either.

So I'll just refrain from 'making an ass of myself', and keep on role-playing in the harshness of Zalanthas, where it's everyone for themselves.

I will leave you with a little passage from 'help armageddon', however.

3. Sometimes people are nasty. There are no rules against being extremely
   mean to others that your character may meet, be it cheating, stealing,
   killing, swindling, or otherwise making a fool out of.  The sole
   exception to this is termed 'the rule of consent', and is outlined
   both in "help consent" and in point 5, below.

[Yang]

You trusted an elf?

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Excuse me.

Well I guess at least now you know the documentation about elves is nice and acurate.

[Yang]

Oh my. Sorry about that, didn't know it would screw up the thread.

Welcome to Armageddon..?

[Northlander]

Well, there exist different ideas about how to treat obviously new players' characters. Some subscribe to the "be nice" way, which might well include spitting on you but won't include killing you. They'll try to give you the feel of Zalanthas, while sometimes not acting as their PCs would act. We also have players who name getting tricked to death as the reason they themselves fell for the mud.

Yes, your character would've known not to trust elves, had he been raised under any conditions resembling normality. This is one of the main reasons people advocate a first character should come from a virtual farming village, or otherwise have no clue about anything. That way, he learns as the same pace of the player - also making for a much more fun game.

The Gaj is coded as main Allanak's filthiest tavern, and frequented by many shady types. It is a bit of a shame that rookie players spawn in the Gaj, but I can't really see any great alternatives there, either.

[Simillion]

I trusted another elf before that. It worked out fine. He even lent me 30 sid and gave me his name.

So sue me, I had one good experience and maybe that screwed me over.

[Northlander]

Well, that elf was either poorly played, or had received a blow to the head, or had ulterior motives

To the point of this post - YANG: HIT THE EDIT BUTTON!

[Beaner]

Someone might have already posted what I am about to say, but due to certain people the thread has become rather hard to read.

I think this is a good point to let this mini-flamewar go--You two are having the same debate I’ve had many times myself, though over a different collection of details. I believe that if anything needs to change it is the existence of these arguments themselves, this habit players has of chastising newbies. When your first character dies and you turn to OOC assistance to understand and perhaps learn from the situation, the last thing you want to hear is “Haw haw, you deserved it.” This game is harsh, that is undeniable and I entered the game knowing that. It might be impossible to offer newbies a friendly, guiding hand within game, but there just needs to be more external encouragement. I do not know how to describe it, but I have this basic feeling that even though the setting of Armageddon may be harsh, the experience of the player does not necessarily have to be harsh and discouraging as well.

[Carnage]

Welcome to Arm, Sim. My cynical side is showing here but that player will likely get away without getting into trouble. In a year or so he'll still be PKing, but now with karma so he can be a magicker and branch spells that can easily freeze you up and turn you into being completely defenseless.

The only thing to do is pretty much suck it up and move on. I'll probably end up having my next character stored by Nessalin again for saying this, but complaining or writing in never seems to help and after a while you learn to end up brushing it off.

I'd love to say more, but the last thing I need is to be yanked out in the middle of a tavern and get yelled at by an angry overlord again.

[Angela Christine]

For the love of Tek, Yang, EDIT that monster!

Ahem.

I agree, the elf's player had a failure of imagination.  Once he had run the human out of stamina, it was not neccessary to kill in order to mug.  In this situation the elf was the superior fighter (obviously) and the human could not escape, so it would have been just as IC to rob him of a few choice items and leave him in the desert alone.  You get the loot either way, but to me robbing someone of their dignity seems more artful than simply taking their life.  Law enforcement isn't an issue, the Law doesn't really care about what happens outside the city, and few Templars would waste time on someone foolish enough to trust an elf.  I think taking a few items and leaving him there to try to "rest" on the baking sands and then walk home would have made a better scene.  But that's just me.


AC

[Simillion]

At least you tell me the truth without being mean about it, Carnage. Thank you for that. But if the bottom line is that Arm is a PK mud, then I'll pass. I never liked PK muds and I never liked the sociopaths who prowl on them. But Arm doesn't advertise itself as a PK mud, so I was fooled.

[vissa]

I know exactly what you're talking about, Simillion.  The same thing happened to me about.. geez, it must have been about 5 years ago.  I turned up in a bar, saw that there was some people around, and tried talking to them.  They didn't respond (I didn't really grasp the concept of VNPCs - I'd not spent a whole lot of time reading the documentation, and I'd made a half-elven thief, to boot) and feeling a bit discouraged I left the bar and started to wander around.  After a while I noticed that some guy from the bar was following me.  Not saying anything, just following me.  I started to get nervous, and my wanderings took me to the gate.  "Aha," I thought, "I'll lose him in the desert."  Bad idea.  He slaughtered me almost as soon as I'd stepped foot outside.  No RP, no conversation, just me and some guy looking to gank newbies.

Being somewhat less sedate 5 years ago than I am now, I promptly said, "What the #&*#! was that?!  $&*@ this #@&*ing game!!" and didn't come back until a few weeks ago.  It was my loss; having spent a lot of time and money trying to find quality RP in other online-games, I've come to the conclusion that this is the place to be.  I hope you'll give it another shot.

Now that I understand that everyone I meet may well be out to rob, kill or swindle my character, I find it rather thrilling.  The secret, as some posters have pointed out, is to trust no one, and to accept that if you do trust someone, it might well be the last mistake your character ever makes.  That said, I don't think that the "it's harsh - deal with it" argument extends to people who prey on fresh newcomers - I mean, ICly, why would ElfRaider want to entice Newbie out to the desert and kill him, unless ElfRaider happens to be an utter psychopath?  Is it for his clothes?  Newbie, by all appearances, is just another poor commoner, and unless Newbie's being really stupid, it's only OOCly that ElfRaider knows that this just-another-commoner happens to be carrying around a load of sid.  Somehow I doubt I'd see ElfRaider wandering around the Commoner district, trying to entice the various vagrants there out into the desert.  So, sorry, in my opinion it's bad RP and always will be.

[Simillion]

Thank you, Vissa. You pretty much echo all of my main points.  I'm glad you enjoy the mud, and frankly, you convinced me to give it another (more cautious) try.

And another thing. At least I can get even with that guy in one way. I was completely sidless. HAHA! Take that, chump. All he got was my bloody clothes. :p

[Meatwad]

Harshness in Arm needent equate to harshness on the GDB.

I feel like adding to the harshness of Arm.  Perhaps for every one of my characters from now on I should simply send them out to every character that seems to be living for more than a few days, and kill them.  My characters would die, but I have infinite of those.  Doesn't that sound like it would add to the harshness, and as some people claim fun, of the game?  I'm sure people would just love having the game be that kind of 'harsh', losing their characters they've had for real life months, to someone who just wanted to randomly kill under the guise of ICly wanting sid.

[Cenghiz]

AH c'mon! That elf was poorly played.. OK.. We shouldn't steal from newbies. They won't act accordingly. Why? Why? Why?
They too lazy to read the docs.. They waste their whole time in GDB for "OMG he killed me!" notes but they've no time to read the docs. It's too hard, real too hard to type "help race", then "help race half elf".
Then auch! Look? Here writes half-elves don't trust elves that easy. Here writes half-elves do anything for only themselves. Here writes they're solitary. Oh you missed it so we should do all the whacking to the twink elf eh? No, sire. You also deserve whacking. How would you play that half-elf before reading about half-elves? *shrug* It's good you died. Read the docs next time, doc.
>emote whacks the newbie with a wet towel.

Note: I'm sorry, but one more quarreling about this and I'll explode.

[Meatwad]

Don't take this as a quarrel, and you should be safe from exploding.  Although that would be amusing.  Moving on...

The key point of this thread is that one person was new to the game, and the other is assumed not to be new.  If the half elf was playing his race poorly, it could be said that the person was new.  Even if they knew they were solitary creatures, they might have wanted to make a friend in the game to get a better feel for it.  A reasonable person playing the elf, knowing the person to be new, should simply have threatened them, perhaps used emote to rough them up, or stole a couple hundred sid.  I believe that ending a new person's PC is extreme.

One was poorly played, the other, a newbie.  One should be reprimanded, the other given guidance and assistance.

[jstorrie]

AC, if I was that raider whose brilliant scheme was to tire out sucker commoners, I sure as hell wouldn't let them live.  If word ever got back to the taverns that Elf X was doing this, he'd be dead by the end of the week.  It's outright safer to just kill your prey, if they can identify you, right?

In fact, posting about the conflict here on the GDB ruins things IC-wise for this raider, because now players will be on the look out for this kind of 'scam'.  Elf X will probably end up dead by the end of the week anyway now, if he keeps up his chosen profession.

Simillion, I would offer you the prospect of this introduction to Arm not being lame, but lucky.  Some new players end up not dying for a while, and don't get into the whole feel of things - to the point that they may end up twinking out to avoid IC deaths, because the players themselves just can't handle it.  You've also been given a very concrete example of a handful of Arm facts, not the least of which are 'many people will kill you for the clothes on your back' and 'don't trust those dirty elves'.

In the future, if you think someone is specifically preying on novices, do what a few others in this thread have suggested and email the mud account.  That way the immortals can look into things and make sure Mr. Elf X isn't specifically targetting new players - that would be twinking out on his part, too.  Then they could think up some reasonable consequence.  However, from your one character death, you have no idea whether or not this player targets people in their 'newbie clothes'.  This may have even been an isolated incident.  Posting on this public forum not only nets half a dozen people flaming you, it also jeopardizes any roleplay your character's  killer may have been involved in.

[bioproject]

They don't?

You people must be playing the soft part of the game.  Cushy like teddy bears.

Well, what I mean to say is, in your average MUD, you go around, hunting beasties until you get to a high-enough level to be able to flee when someone's trying to PK you.  Then, eventually, like the child of violence who becomes violent, you turn on the world and begin to PK others, in-between this point you have died and had to recover your weapons 10,000,000 times.  I'm just saying, death is more final, and more tragic, here, not something that happens six times every game...

And are you calling the Byn cushy?

[Simillion]

Jstorrie, I've since changed my mind about this whole thing. Yes, I've learned a lot. Yes, I've e-mailed the mud. I don't regret making this topic because nicer posters have convinced me to stick with it. Personally, I don't give a rat's ass about that elf's RP or his character; if he dies, so be it. And if people use the GDB as IC information, then they're being lousy RPers; I doubt anyone would do that.

I disagree that this is an "isolated incident." Maybe 4 or 5 people at least have had nearly identical experiences, 3 that I am sure about.

My main motivation for starting this topic in the first place was my disgust with the mud wanting more players yet horrendously abusing newbies simultaneously.

[Cenghiz]

Yey.. You're right.. Sorry for overreacting but it feels like....
Err.. When I first started the game I applied before reading the docs. Metalcrafter bearded dwarf, my character, somehow wasn't approved, but before I got the mail I knew what I did wrong.
But people are joining without reading anything, and then keeping on without reading anything. You can RP something that you didn't know? No sire, I would suspect someone of being err.. strange if he even didn't read his race's docfile.
If he read his race's docfile before, that's worse, because he cheated for OOC gains. Going with that elf would help him hunting, he thought, even though ICly he shouldn't follow the elf in his first meeting, but he decided he should go to beat a few scrabs with the experience of the elf.
So, of course I'm the minority here (one against the Zalanthas) but I'm still saying. It's good that he died. So we all won't have to mess with a badly played half-elven ranger.
Now he can make a human (help race human) warrior (help guild warrior) and join Byn (help byn) and learn the game.

[jstorrie]

Simillion, you should give a rat's ass about another player's roleplaying experience.  If his character dies because he tries to scam the wrong person and gets what's coming to him, that's one thing, but if his character dies because you've spread in-character information on an internet message board, that's something completely different.

Bad stuff happens.  Bad stuff happens -a lot-.  Armageddon is not fair or nice.  If you feel a player is twinking out, you're welcome to email the mud account and have them look into it, but every time you log in, expect every character your character meets to be very mean to you.  Zalanthas is a tough, harsh world, and many Zalanthans will kill for a scrap of food or a drink of water.  If this raider was specifically targetting people in their 'newbie gear' because they'd be easy to scam, that would be very out-of-character and very bad, but you don't have the necessary information to judge that sort of thing.  When this sort of situation pops up, you contact the immortals.  You don't bring it up on the public bulletin board.

[jstorrie]

Harshness in Arm needent equate to harshness on the GDB.

I feel like adding to the harshness of Arm.  Perhaps for every one of my characters from now on I should simply send them out to every character that seems to be living for more than a few days, and kill them.  My characters would die, but I have infinite of those.  Doesn't that sound like it would add to the harshness, and as some people claim fun, of the game?  I'm sure people would just love having the game be that kind of 'harsh', losing their characters they've had for real life months, to someone who just wanted to randomly kill under the guise of ICly wanting sid.

If your character goes out and kills other -characters-, that's great!  That adds to the harshness of the game, you're right!

If your character goes out and kills other -player-characters-, that'd be terrible, as I'm sure you know.  What I want to point out is the distinction.  As the help docs state, you're fully welcome to go and play some murderous psychopath.  Just expect that your character will be treated as a murderous psychopath if anyone witnesses his behaviour (and survives to tell), right?  What's important is just not to play based on out-of-character knowledge, knowledge that includes the distinction between PCs and NPCs, as well as the distinction between 'experienced player' and 'newbie'.

As long as this raider was raiding people in general, he's not doing anything wrong.  If, on the other hand, he's saying "ok, newbie pants, time to make 1200 'sid", then he's targetting based on an out-of-character distinction, and that's really bad.

But!

Simillion likely doesn't know if this raider's player is targetting novices specifically, unless he's been watching him with a keylogger or something.  For all we know, the raider could be approaching people newbie-gear or not and trying to scam them, right?  The only people who would be able to observe this raider and see if he was specifically targetting novices would be the immortals.

Posting on the public bulletin board might attract their attention, but emailing the mud account would do that even better.  Posting on the public bulletin board also may ruin any genuine roleplay the raider was involved in.  Or, on the other side of the coin, it might have just tipped him off, so now he'll stop doing it and try to 'lay low' until the immortals stop watching him.

This is exactly the same discussion that comes up in all the "that thief twink-stole from me!" or "some twink stole all my furniture!" or "that raider jumped me and pk'd me without giving me time to emote!" threads: ultimately, a single player does not know for sure if something inappropriate is going on.  As such the single player should inform the immortals and go on their way, not spread information on the public bulletin board that could either damage ongoing roleplay or allow a twinker to 'escape'.

I don't want to come off as sounding really harsh here, but so many people seem to be posting in support, assuming that the raider was a twink, and missing out on the consequences of all that in-character information being posted on this board.  You definitely should keep playing, Simillion, but you need to keep in mind that all 'cheating' type issues need to go straight to the immortals, not to this board .

[Simillion]

Alright, jstorrie, I'm sorry I ever made this topic. I won't do it again. I'm just really really tired right now and definitely going to sleep. I have no idea where you live but you've got some incredible stamina to make a post like that this hour. Goodnight.

[PonchosAreGoodPonchosCanB]

My main motivation for starting this topic in the first place was my disgust with the mud wanting more players yet horrendously abusing newbies simultaneously.

Just thought I'd point out that the mud is unable to police nor should they be policing the entirety of the MUD's playerbase 24/7. The actions of certain characters in game can be interpreted in an IC and OOC manner. The IC aspect, we, the victims will typically not understand as the 'enemy' is likely (hopefully) thinking and plotting out the reasons for his/her actions. On the OOC side, we can't help but feel the bitterness for losing something that we've spent time and energy creating and working with. It's alright to feel the anger but to give in to it..well, that's going a bit far (though I've given in myself a few times).

The MUD is a game, created and run by people who do NOT get paid and are in fact, paying to keep the game running from their own pockets. They dedicate their time to helping out players as best as they can and hope that the players who come along are mature and responsible enough that they needn't police them 24/7. I would imagine an imm's position to be that of propelling the game onward along a set storyline rather than that of policing players as really, imms are players in their own way, they do what they do for the enjoyment they receive from it. What one player does in-game is not the responsibility of the MUD and unless you request the MUD to investigate, it is highly unlikely they will have noticed what happened to one of the hundreds of players regularly logging on.

On another note, I thought it might be beneficial to mention - you continuously indicate that if your PC had been like any other PC in the population, etc. he would have known, would have done, etc. Well, it is from my experience that there is enough in the documentation to give you a good, solid grounding in the game's basics. I.E. Don't trust elves, etc. The whole persona of elves is written out in the helpfile and elaborated in elven roleplay and gives a VERY good idea of what's going on the instant you start interacting with an elf (in-city at least).

The Gaj being a newbie bar - well, that's a first time I've ever heard that myself. Having been in the Gaj very sparsely myself, I can but say that the north, you start in the Sanctuary yet that isn't a 'newbie' bar as you might term it. Bars are merely the gathering centers of the game where PCs can meet with other PCs to RP and make associates/enemies. You shouldn't trust every one you meet as this IS a harsh world but neither should you be on the edge of hysterical paranoia. It's left to the discretion of the player to determine whether their character will trust/be paranoid about someone. If the player doesn't understand the entirety of a race's persona then it's the player's responsibility to read up on the race and learn about their mentality. The fact that this happened will teach you that elves are bad but it will hopefully also nudge you towards reading more from the help files especially about culture, etc.

On the note of taking you out into the desert to kill you - If somebody were to take you out of say a bar into streets filled with thugs and gangs, would you run yourself down trying to keep up with them when you don't really know them or know if they're any good at fighting? That's an analogy to Allanak and the surrounding territory as it is dangerous. If you ran yourself to death, well, that could just be your PC trying to impress the elf (for whatever reason) so it was IC that in his careless fatigue, he didn't realize what he was doing and therefore died. On the OOC side, you might want to consider reading the prompt helpfile along with that of endurance.

Anyways, hopefully your next experience is better.

[Meatwad]

This has got to be covered by now.

[Simillion]

Well, it is from my experience that there is enough in the documentation to give you a good, solid grounding in the game's basics. I.E. Don't trust elves, etc. The whole persona of elves is written out in the helpfile and elaborated in elven roleplay and gives a VERY good idea of what's going on the instant you start interacting with an elf (in-city at least).

...
If the player doesn't understand the entirety of a race's persona then it's the player's responsibility to read up on the race and learn about their mentality.

Okay, I'm going to have to argue with this. I disagree that the docs make it clear about elves. I read the elf roleplaying guide before even deciding to make a half-elf character, and I don't feel it prepared me adequately for my experience. Here's a quote from the elf RP doc:

City elves are scattered across the settled places of Zalanthas, and have adapted to live by their wits. True to the nature of elves they also live by their quick fingers, and are usually avoided by the honest citizens of other races. Some city elves are members of tribes camped in some run- down space within its walls; others lead shiftless lives with no ties of loyalty at all.

That page alone is what I read about elves. Okay, so elves are thieves; I can handle that, I thought. The entire time I talked to these elves, I was checking my pockets for sudden loss of 'sid. Nothing to prepare me for cold-blooded murder in that doc, though.

And as for claiming that my character was a "badly played half-elf ranger" as Cenghiz said, I was accurately roleplaying my race according to the half-elf roleplaying doc. here's a quote from there.

Accepted by neither humans nor elves, half-elves tend to be extremely self-reliant, and they pride themselves on this trait. Half-elves try to do everything for themselves, such as hunting for their own meals and camping well apart from others they are with. Despite this, half-elves typically try to gain acceptance by elves or humans and will go out of their way toward that end.

So I was seeking acceptance from elves, and I had successfully done so (or seemingly) with an elf earlier. I was roleplaying my half-elf according to the docs, wary of my purse according to the docs.

My point? The docs insufficiently prepare new players for... this. Or... this, should not be acceptable.

In any case, I find it sad that this argument even has to happen.

[PonchosAreGoodPonchosCanB]

City elves are scattered across the settled places of Zalanthas, and have adapted to live by their wits. True to the nature of elves they also live by their quick fingers, and are usually avoided by the honest citizens of other races. Some city elves are members of tribes camped in some run- down space within its walls; others lead shiftless lives with no ties of loyalty at all.

That in itself seems rather self-explanatory. While constantly checking your inventory to see if you had lost coins would be the code-use method of stealing from you, there is always the RP method of using their wits to steal (not to mention there would probably have to be some planning/thought into actual theft of any sort in either event). I.E. Convincing you to make a bad deal, getting you out into the desert to raid you if he/she could convince someone to actually do something like that. The fact that you played a half-elf would imply to most other people that said character is likely in the chaotic equation depicted by the half-elf helpfile indicating they would be more susceptible to an elf's sway than a regular human and therefore, potentially more willing to take greater risks that may endanger himself in the pursuit of company.

While I don't know what actually happened or how it happened and I've only skimmed the remainder of the posts, I don't see any fault myself in what I've read so far in the elf's RP. The docs explain it by the term: wit - which would imply out-thinking another, not necessarily out-right stealing what they have in their inventory. By those cut/pastes of the racial helpfiles you've given, it seems that your half-elf would have had reason to go with the elf if he were in that state of desiring company while at the same time, being trusting of the elf despite the potential threat and uncertainty imposed by a new 'friend'. On the elf's side, it seems that said elf only did what was witty - you found somebody who seems highly influential and you want what they have so you can climb the social ladder in your grungy hole a little. To rob them would mean only partial gains while to kill them would mean 100% gain if you could do it effectively. Said half-elf, lacking a kank or other means of transportation and much in the way of armor may be an easy kill as he seems to have lacked much in the way of profit from whatever it is he does therefore he must be a poor hunter/crafter/merchant/whatever it is he is. Even if your character had been a common commoner in Allanak, without the newbie bundle, the clothes on your back would have fetched a decent enough amount, an amount mind you that most of the IC population probably doesn't see very often (most of the populations are poor, PCs are substantially richer than vNPCs from what I can tell). Therefore, since the half-elf is highly susceptible and I need/want a quick gain, I want to get everything I can therefore I will kill this man at the risk that somebody else will come along to save him, the possibility that something in the desert will come and maybe kill us both, I'll be spotted and my features described to everyone by the time I get back thereby rendering future schemes of similar scope useless, or that this guy might actually make it back somehow.

While I don't agree with what the other player did, from what I can gather of what happened, I don't see anything wrong with it from an IC standpoint. You, yourself have justified your end and since the player of the elf hasn't indicated anything on his/her end, I can but deduce what's happened and the potential thought processes that occurred. Though, I haven't played an elf myself so no doubt there are people out there that can better answer that and I think they may already have up above.

Please bear in mind, this is an RP-intensive MUD that does not (as far as I know) gaurantee any special privileges to newbies. The staff does tend to try and help those in need of help but if events occur in-game which make sense in-game, I personally don't see any fault in it. Even if you were a newbie. I would suggest that if you don't understand the world so well, join a clan that is active so you can learn from other people and gain their protection while trying to figure it out. Being an independent is probably the easiest way to die one way or another - especially when you don't know what you're doing yet.

My point? The docs insufficiently prepare new players for... this. Or... this, should not be acceptable.

In any case, I find it sad that this argument even has to happen.

The docs provide adequate information in my personal estimation and if it weren't acceptable then you would have to alter the personality of elves and the world in general and/or bring about MUD policing. A role which I doubt you'll find many people interested in taking on not to mention the amount of disapproval from most of the player base it would generate.

As to the argument..well, the instant you posted on the GDB about an IC-incident with the post you made, you opened it up for discussion which brings about arguments. If you wished to avoid it all, you would have e-mailed the mud about it and cited your case. So all in all, I get the impression that you intended to start up some sort of argument, get support from the playerbase against the elf's player so as to heighten your down-struck mood. But then again, that's just my personal perception of the situation.

[spawnloser]

When a character dies, you as a player learn from your mistakes.  You take that and go on to your next character.  Yes, you were taken advantage of, but that is what predators do...and yes, you were the prey.

The Gaj is not a 'newbie bar'...it just happens to be the start point when people 'point allanak' from the Hall of Kings, but it is a scum bar.  It is the bar that the low-lives hang out in.  Plenty of people other than newbies hang out there.

Also, everyone is recommended to read ALL of the docs before entering the game and seek a helper to get any questions answered that they are allowed.  Read all of the docs and helpfiles.  There is plenty of information in there that says that elves are not trusted by anyone...including other elves.

[Spoon]

When a character dies, you as a player learn from your mistakes.  You take that and go on to your next character.  Yes, you were taken advantage of, but that is what predators do...and yes, you were the prey.

I think this sums it up. Your first character   isn't going to be King of Zalanthas. Your first character   is going to get eaten by a scrab, or mugged and stabbed by an elf.

Though this other player did take advantage, which pisses me off to think that people are out there doing this, shit happens. It took me three characters before I finally got used to this mud.

Plus, why do people take others out to the desert to mug them? I think it would be better rp, and much more fun, to smack them in the street, then get chased by the militia.

[UnderSeven]

You know though, I am a little curious on this particular case.  What was the ic motivation for said event...?  Elves are thieves yeah, so to have him rob the guy blind but to kill him..?

keep in mind with npcs and vnpcs there are countless half elves so to just target a pc for being a half elf is ridiculous.. And lots of poverished people.  As a players yes you learn from your mistakes, but I still think the staff should look into this because chances are the player on the OTHER end of that situation was making a mistake too, that mistake being doing an action oocly.

[Uberskaapie]

I think you guys complaining are lucky. Very lucky. When I started this mud, maybe 3 years ago, my first 10 deaths were spent falling off things (alright, maybe 5). I WISH I was killed by pcs. I've only been killed by pcs a few times. Life in Zalanthas is hard, people want to kill you, lots of people, usually because you have something that they want. It's a pain in the ass to die, yes, but those few moments before you do are my favorite part, because every character WILL die. I make sure my death is as cool as I could possibly make it. I have PURPOSELY roleplayed what happened to you. I trusted somebody that I knew OOC would probably like to end me, because that's what my character would have done.

I realise it takes a little while, but once you learn to die well, it will make your life a lot happier

[Anonymous]

My first PK went something along these lines.  Someone was asking me to be taken somewhere, so I took them the wrong way while they were on foot and I was on a kank.  Took them out till they got too tired then jumped down, did some emotes and killed them.  Felt guilty too.  Not because I killed them but because, in retrospect, the PC would have known they were going the wrong way and wouldn't have fallen for it.  After PK'ing them I realized I took advantage, unwittingly, of how new they were to the mud.

That being said, neither I, nor the PKer in this equation, did anything wrong and IMHO, not something worthy of emailing the mud over to complain.  ICly he may have had plenty of reasons to PK you beyond your coins.  Maybe it was an initiation.  A dare.  A bet.

Regardless, death is a fact of life in Arm, and I would come back after you've had a bit to think it over and calm down.  And you'll come back that much wiser.

And one other note.  It's been my experience that equipment doesn't trump skill and agility in a fight.  Just wanted to say that.  There isn't a mindset, that I'm aware, permeating this mud that the person with the best equipment will win.  This is RE: your note that the elf wasn't more skilled just better equipped.  He was probably marginally more skilled than you were.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

But if the bottom line is that Arm is a PK mud, then I'll pass. I never liked PK muds and I never liked the sociopaths who prowl on them. But Arm doesn't advertise itself as a PK mud, so I was fooled.

Armageddon is not a PK mud. It is a roleplaying MUD. PK is partially involved, as is emoting, crafting, and all the other features and commands. These all combine to make a MUD, rather than a MUSH. In a MUD, particullarly in a roleplaying MUD, characters and players exist who simply do evil things. I can not tell you which one it was in this case.

But if you let something like this discourage you, and completely put you off from the game, then there was no point in this particular tirade. Your last death was not the end all. Move on. You may not be fooled in such a manner next time. Armageddon does lose newbies because of situations and experiences just like this, but we also gain newbies for these exact same reasons.

I would actually prefer to get the newbies who deal with bad shit, cuss about it, and keep playing, rather than those who get jacked, cuss about it, and go off to search the Silt Sea for a better experience. Put quite simply, you are walking away from the only oasis in the RPI desert.

If you decide to go on and do that, I wish you luck in finding another oasis. If you decide to come get a drink, I have a bucket.

EDIT: After reading the whole thread, I am glad to see that you are continuing in your Armageddon experience. The standing offer of the bucket is still good.

[Raesanos]

Newbie-hunting is an unwelcome activity in Armageddon.  If someone is killing newbies because they know are easy targets, or because they know they have newbie-money, or because they are wearing newbie-gear, then that is bad.  Of course, its difficult to determine someone's motive, but if you feel that someone has killed you for no other reason than that you are a newbie, emailing in so that in can be investigated was the correct course of action.

Simillion, I hope that your future experiences on Armageddon are more enjoyable.  We have a large number of talented role-players, and I'm sure that after giving it another chanse you'll fall in with some of them and have a great time.

[Quirk]

I think a few points should be made about "newbies".

If you're referring to "newbie" as a new player rather than a new character, Simillion, it's important to note that there is practically no way of telling a new player with a new character and an old player with a new character apart. If I die, make a new warrior or assassin or Krathi and point to 'Nak on the map, I arrive in the Gaj dormitory looking much the same as any other newbie. Oh, my description might be a little grittier and more Zalanthan than some newbies' descriptions will be, but that is far from an infallible sign. Once a new character has found his way to the Bazaar and bought himself a set of new clothing, there is no easily obvious way to spot that he is a new character. Conversely, a character with a number of days played may still be at least partly in newbie clothing through lacking funds to replace it with.

Location is surely no sign. The Gaj is a rough and gritty tavern, and attracts all manner of low lifes. Every 'Nakki character starts there, save the 'Rinthers, and from there they settle on other taverns depending on their place in the social scale. I would never assume, seeing a PC in the Gaj, that they were a newbie.

The only readily apparent way to spot a newbie is via their mistakes, or their lack of emoting. If you read the docs and helpfiles in some depth before you started the game, you probably won't make as many of those mistakes, and may even look like an experienced player. Hence, someone planning to trick your character may well be fooled into thinking you less of a newbie than you are.

That said, I don't think it's a terribly good sign of elven RP to lure someone out into the desert and kill them. Elves take pride in their cleverness in scamming others, but killing them when all that was needed was to part them from their gear lends a clumsy touch. Then again, the person playing the elf may be somewhat new themselves.

Don't be daunted. I have to confess it took me about seven characters to get into Arm, and some of those early ones were killed every bit as cheaply as you were. The initial learning curve is harsh, but it is worth undergoing.

Quirk

[Carnage]

Thank you, Vissa. You pretty much echo all of my main points.  I'm glad you enjoy the mud, and frankly, you convinced me to give it another (more cautious) try.

And another thing. At least I can get even with that guy in one way. I was completely sidless. HAHA! Take that, chump. All he got was my bloody clothes. :p

I'll gladly play an older brother or whatever to help you out and keep an eye out if you like.

Consider it my good deed of the year.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Carnage is a el...

Wait, no, no. Sorry. Nevermind.

:twisted:

[Bestatte]

It's a shame the elf didn't emote after he had you defenseless and exhausted in the desert, when he had the perfect opportunity to turn it into an awesome death scene. Other than that, I honestly don't see any problem with the situation.

It is not his responsibility to "help" you if you haven't first helped yourself by reading the docs, finding a helper to ask "are elves REALLY scoundrels and thieves, or do they just put that in the docs like every other elf-hating game does?"

He -did- RP the entire interaction up to the point where he started chasing you around the desert, so I'd say he did fine with that. Did you try to "flee east" or in whatever direction was back to the gates when you realized you were in combat? Did you try emoting with him during combat (you mentioned it seemed to take awhile before your character died, so you would've had time to do this) - such as begging for your life and offering to give him whatever he wanted? Or even shouting "HELP!" - anything? I'm not accusing you of not doing this - I'm only asking if you did - if you made it clear that you wanted some interaction, by doing some of the interaction yourself during the battle.

Elves are not trusted in the world of Zalanthas. This is a fact that is documented many times in many of the help-files, intro pages, newbie pages, "coming from other games" pages, and elsewhere.

Half-elves are considered scum, lower than the low, to the general public, and are often marked as "fair game" whether a newbie half-elf or a 30-day half-elf. This is also clearly documented.

While I'm not discounting AT ALL the fact that your character's killer had a chance to make your PC's death a FUN and memorable tragedy, I do feel the need to point out that the responsibility to understand and learn about the "social status" of your PC and the elf's PC rests on your shoulders, and no one else's. If you didn't realize that elves shouldn't be trusted, then you have only yourself to blame.

Now - if that elf does nothing else but sit in the Gaj waiting for newbies to spawn in the sleeping chamber then yeah - he's a twink and should be dealt with harshly by the staff. But nowhere did you mention or even imply any such knowledge about this elf PC. For all you know this might've been his very first PK. Or maybe he saw a stupid half-elf who trusts elves and deserves to die because he's an abomination of nature. The point is, you don't know. And it's unfair to your PC's killer to make assumptions like that about his player.

My suggestion would be to send a note to mud@armageddon.org and ask -politely- if the death of your PC was legit, or if it was a twinked death. They can look into it.

As for zmud - the shareware version allows you to set your buffer to I believe up to 10,000 lines. So if you want to "capture" something that already happened you should be able to do so with no trouble at all.

Don't give up - death is a part of the game, it is -not- a PK game but PK is something everyone falls victim to eventually - and sometimes often. Out of the 13 characters I've played so far, ONE of them was not killed by another PC. One. I've questioned 2 of those PKs, the rest I swore and stomped my feet and cried and vented and bitched and moaned about on my side of the computer monitor, but knew ultimately that it's just how things go sometimes and learned to look forward to the more "interesting" deaths.

I hope you will come to feel this way as well.

[Simillion]

Thanks to everyone for the intelligent replies. I just have a few things to say in response.

1.) I know that making this message board post was not the right thing to do about the situation now. Next time, it won't happen of course.

2.) I know that the elf could have been doing perfectly acceptable roleplay, and that I don't have adequate information. Therefore, I mailed the mud.

3.) I still strongly believe that the docs do NOT sufficiently prepare a newbie for this kind of thing. Yes, they say not to trust elves. Yet, they say to trust them in the half-elf doc. It doesn't say as strongly as it should something like, "Elves are known to ruthlessly kill commoners, if only for the clothes on their back." If it had said something along these lines, I might have been more cautious. I had READ all of these docs. To say "it's perfectly clear to me that elves are dangerous," means only that you've played long enough to hear about or be victim to elves like this.

If anything results from this topic, I hope that it's the addition of a sentence like this. A sentence like "Elves are known to ruthlessly kill" is now a fact, and I think most people would find it acceptable. And it will help.

4.)To drive my point home, so far I've heard things like this:

Elves are not trusted in the world of Zalanthas. This is a fact that is documented many times in many of the help-files, intro pages, newbie pages, "coming from other games" pages, and elsewhere.

I read the docs, Bestatte.

Also, everyone is recommended to read ALL of the docs before entering the game and seek a helper to get any questions answered that they are allowed. Read all of the docs and helpfiles. There is plenty of information in there that says that elves are not trusted by anyone...including other elves.

Once again, that "elves are not trusted." I don't trust my dad, but is he going to kill me in the desert? Not likely. Needs stronger wording.

5.) Once again, I'm sticking with the game and I've learned a lot.

I have no more time and I got to go.

[jhunter]

More acurately...

-People- are known to ruthlessly kill in the world of Zalanthas.

Elves are not to be trusted.

*shrugs*

[The Lonely Hunter]

First off, welcome to Armageddon!

The only thing I would like to comment on is that you said 'it doesnt prepare newbies for murder'...if I remember right.

If you take a look at the Armageddon banner, I beleave Murder is one of the keywords. =)

Anyway, just a comment and I wish you the best.  If you need any help, feel free to contact any of the helpers listed on the web site.

[Bestatte]

Yeah what jhunter said.

People, of every race and skillset, are KNOWN to do what they need in ordered to survive. People of upper cultural status will arrange murders, do some of the killing themselves, send their pet soldiers out to accuse a hated enemy of some crime just to see them duke it out with a mekillot in the arena, blah blah blah.

The game docs - not the elf-specific docs - state most emphatically that your character is likely to end up dead, that murders and assassinations happen.

The elf docs specificy that elves are not to be trusted. Combine "ALL PEOPLE ARE SUSPECT REGARDING ASSASSINATIONS" with "ALL ELVES ARE UNTRUSTWORTHY" and I don't see how you can possibly come ot the conclusion that some elves can be trusted, upon meeting them for the first time, of NOT wanting your ass in a sling.

The half-elf docs do -not- say that half-elves will trust elves. They say that half-elves will try to fit in with either the elven or the human culture. Half-elves are not stupid. They know that elves cannot be trusted to keep them alive. They know that IF they wanted to fit in with the elven society that they would have to jump through hoops, risk death, risk murder, risk betrayal, risk hatred - to succeed.

Wanting to fit in does not equal automatic trust. It is a bad idea to take a single line of the docs and interpret it to suit your needs, when the whole rest of the documentation clearly reflects a whole different ballgame.

[EvilRoeSlade]

3.) I still strongly believe that the docs do NOT sufficiently prepare a newbie for this kind of thing. Yes, they say not to trust elves. Yet, they say to trust them in the half-elf doc. It doesn't say as strongly as it should something like, "Elves are known to ruthlessly kill commoners, if only for the clothes on their back." If it had said something along these lines, I might have been more cautious. I had READ all of these docs. To say "it's perfectly clear to me that elves are dangerous," means only that you've played long enough to hear about or be victim to elves like this.

Elves aren't natural psychopaths anymore than humans are.  If there is a trend for them to be played in that manner, then it arises from players who don't understand that thievery does not equate to murder, and are frusturated because of the lack of role-play options for elves.

I'm glad that you are deciding to give it another try.  My first character died in the Gaj (and I mean IN the Gaj), in a manner just as inexcusable as yours did.  My first thoughts however were "Woah... this game really IS harsh!"

Welcome to Armageddon.

[Simillion]

I stand by my points. I read the docs and still did not feel prepared for this. Many other people have had the same experience of being surprised by the true "harshess" of this mud. Being surprised means they were not prepared for it.

And yes, I was prepared for a murderous and bloodthirsty environment. I would expect to be murdered in a second if I felt that I in some minimal way deserved it. However, to be deceived and tricked, and murdered out of the blue, was a surprise.

And finally I just don't think that jhunter, Bestatte, and people saying similar things to me have any idea what I'm trying to say.

The point is not my personal loss anymore; I got over that. The point is that newbies who play this game are in for a big surprise, even if they read the docs. All of them. The point is, maybe, just maybe the docs can be clarified and reworded so that such a surprise is reduced, and the discouragement newbies feel after dying is reduced. I think my example and other people's (vissa, EvilRoeSlade, I'll use you as examples here) are good enough to show that the docs don't sufficiently prepare players. I am a reasonably smart person, and I read all of the elven and half-elven, along with several other RP docs. Yet, I was surprised.

Why are the docs misleading? Well, maybe because the GM's want to make the mud more attractive. Certainly, a doc saying "This is a mud where you're going to likely be killed for absolutely no perceivable reason except for the monetary gain of your murderer" will just turn away more players than the existing docs already probably do. But false advertising, which is what I alluded to when I said "if this is just a PK mud, etc." is even WORSE than scary docs.

I know this isn't a PK mud, and I know this mud is supposed to be harsh. I wouldn't want it any other way. But the feeling of surprise, at having felt one way about the mud and realizing it was much different, is NOT a pleasant feeling. It's an unpleasant feeling that will turn away new players, as it almost turned me away. And the solution, the simple solution, would be to reword the docs here and there to more accurately describe the mud. That's all I ask.

[Cenghiz]

Sorry for hissing, then. Welcome to Armageddon.
Wish we meet and have some fine RP. See you.

[Bestatte]

Sim, we -are- understanding what you're saying. We disagree with you. Of course the staff isn't gonna put in the docs anything even remotely resembling "You are likely to get killed your first day in" - not because it's bad press, but because it isn't true. You are -not- likely to get killed your first day in. You are -not- likely to get murdered for no reason whatsoever. That is a PK game. Arm is not that.

They -do- warn you that your character WILL die. They -do- warn you that your first character will -probably- die rather quickly. They are very clear on this. They also warn you in plain english:

# One, roleplaying is central to the environment and is not considered an option by the creators of the world. It is a requirement. If you do not want to roleplay, this is not the game for you.
# Two, life is hard. There are no free lunches on Zalanthas. There aren't even free drinks of water. It is likely that you will die, and if you are unlucky or unintelligent you will die very fast. Only the fittest live long enough to retire in comfort at the end of their careers.
# Three, sometimes people are nasty. There are no rules against being mean to others that you meet, be it cheating, stealing, killing, swindling, or otherwise making a fool out of them as long as the meanness is in-character (IC).
# Four, complaints of unfairness on the part of other players will not be given an audience. If you think another character was mean to you, you're most likely right.

If you think another character was mean to you, you're most likely right. Your thread subject heading implies that you received a "lame" intro to the game. You received a RPed intro to the game, including the opportunity to interact, learn about perception of character types, get outside the city, and die. You received more in that experience than many other new players receive. And you claim it was lame. I - and others - disagree.

[spawnloser]

It was interaction...

Go read the 'worst deaths' thread from beginning to end if you want to see a decent selection of lame deaths...some of them being people's first characters and their introductions to the mud.

Seriously, I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but the docs, I feel, do adequetely prepare you.  What Bestatte just quoted, right there, is all that is needed.  You simply underestimated it.  I thought the game was going to be MORE harsh than it was when I joined up.

Still, good luck on your next.

[Anonymous]

I think this thread needs to die about now..

[Thad]

First. I'm going to say that I have not read through this complete thread, 5 pages in under 20 hours...wow.

So, at the risk of repeating anybody, my views.

First, My char does NOT know that yours is new to the world, know why? Because, he is NOT new to the world.

I may or may not know that YOU as a player are new to the game, if I do know, I MAY, try to be basicly nice...UNLESS it goes against IC to do so.

Now, the elf in question may have had some boring thing to say, maybe even thin in some ways, and the player MAY have known the mark was new...but that does not matter, his actions as an elf were completly IC according to docs. I'd have done the exact same things if I'd been playing that sort of char...hell, I have.

This is NOT a newbie friendly mud and I hope that it never becomes one, no matter how much I would like the player base to expand. I think the steep learning curve is a GOOD thing, the type of player who gives up on the first death simply is not the type who is fit for this game or the harsh world of Zalanthas. They will not continue to make it a harsh place. No matter what I think of some people on the GDB, these same people are GOOd for the game, I'd name them, but I'm sure they know who thay are.


To finish. Though I cannot find it at the moment, my fav and most quoted section of the docs is the part that reads.

"If you think that somebody is being mean to you, they probly are, complaints of unfairness will not be heard" Or something of the sort.

I actually cringed at all the people that said mud should be mailed with logs..yadda yadda. Elf, acts like an elf, takes advantage/cheats/kills somebody else with little risk to himself...THIS IS ELF!!! check the docs.

[X-D]

And yes, I was prepared for a murderous and bloodthirsty environment. I would expect to be murdered in a second if I felt that I in some minimal way deserved it. However, to be deceived and tricked, and murdered out of the blue, was a surprise.

Dude, you said you read the docs....HE WAS AN ELF!!!
Out of the blue...BOGGLE.....ELF man ELF!! Read the docs again!

[Meatwad]

That was a truly valueable contribution X-D.  especially since it has been made and debated to death already.

[X-D]

Shrug, too long of a thread to wade through the whole thing, point remains...ELF..if he read the docs and understood them then there would BE no thread Meatwad. He did not or did not believe them, and bitches about bad RP when in all it was GOOD rp. Bah.

And BTW, contributions such as your last are what get flames started.

Technicly, since it was a direct attack on my opinion/post with nothing to add in and of itself, I think it qualifies as a flame. JMHO.

[ashyom]

The original poster had a valid complaint, and many players have brought up several valid, good points to refute that.  They were, I see, helpful, thoughtful, and very well said.  However, although I haven't seen outright flaming, there were a few posts that were borderline - and I don't feel that is a good attitude to show to new players that we're working on bringing to the mud.  Keep it civil.

Thanks
Ashyom

[Angela Christine]

That said, I don't think it's a terribly good sign of elven RP to lure someone out into the desert and kill them. Elves take pride in their cleverness in scamming others, but killing them when all that was needed was to part them from their gear lends a clumsy touch.

I agree.   Most muggers are not also murderers.  Allanak has half a million people, so IC there is little reason to fear some nobody with no tribe, no connections, no position, and no money (for bribing lawmen).  

For elves successful scams are something to be proud of, so having a victim publically complaining about how he was scammed is delightful.  Among elves (the only people who really matter to an elf) publicity will increase the prestige of the elf who pulled off the scheme, and lower the prestige of the person who got scammed.


OOC the population is smaller, so being known as a thief can make it harder to get away with things in the future.  But if you are an elf, you are already known to be a thief by default.  It is supposed to be challenging to be a sucessfull, artful elf.  


AC

[EvilRoeSlade]

I find myself being reminded of Thief: The Dark Project.  If you set the difficulty level to hard, then you'll always get the following mission objective.

A true professional never leaves a mess:  Don't kill anyone!

I'm not against killing, because I think there needs to be more killing.  But I also think that there needs to be more -reasons- to kill.  For a raider, the less you want to intimidate as much as possible and fight as little as possible.

[Anarchy]

My only real problem with Armageddon is the fact people kill other PCs far too much in simple random muggings, often when its not called for, ok, so you trapped someone, knock them out, take their backpack, LEAVE the PC alive, chances are they spent a good few hours working on that app and really dont like the idea of someone killing them in the first hour of playing. If you call the "Oh, but he will go to the templars" you can do, one or all three things 1) Bribe a templar, or 2) say he is lying, unless the templar wants to kill you, your most likely to have better standing then your victim 3) Hide out in your little slime hole for a few days, out of sight, out of mind.

[Meatwad]

I don't have a problem with people killing to survive, but it is rather obvious that they target PCs intead of npcs or vnpcs.  PCs are a tiny minority, so with them being targeted most often that is obviously wrong, and something OOC is going on.  So if playing a raider, I would suggest wishing for a npc to be loaded, or one to be animated.  After all, you wouldn't know who is a real person and who isn't if you were actually living on Zalanthas.

[Cenghiz]

Wishing up for a NPC would be accepted?

[PonchosAreGoodPonchosCanB]

What's wrong with PCs preying on PCs if NPCs and vNPCs prey on other NPCs/vNPCs in the virtual world? Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Not to mention there's the fact that NPCs aren't as rich as PCs usually so PCs would be targeted more often due to their wealth. Not many people in game have jobs serving one of the great Houses otherwise well, nobody would be starving, etc. Yet a high proportion of PCs have jobs with these Houses. So it seems logical that PCs would fall prey to muggings more often then not. Of course, I'm sure we could ask the imms to write up a script with random muggings against PCs while encouraging other PCs to mug NPCs more often as well to balance it all out (they would probably still target PCs as PCs are richer therefore stronger gains).

[Meatwad]

So this person who was in the game for very little time, did not have a job with a house, and had the clothes any other commoner would have just screamed out rich to the elf pc?  I hardly think so.  However newbie clothes = newbie sid, the out of game, out of character concept would tell this.  It should also be noted that NPCs to prety on PCs.  The thing is, if this elf was going to mug someone who looks just like a regular commoner, then they should be going after and killing millions of people, not this one pc.  And a character has NO IDEA AT ALL that something called a 'PC' has more money than something called an 'NPC'.  Those are out of character concepts, and could not motivate a character at all in the game.  You essentially disproved your own statement.  That's what I find wrong with your arguement, Ponchos.  And Cenghiz, it's been shown acceptable in the past to wish for a burglar to have vnpcs act accordingly when he robs a house, or just an imm to watch him do it, as well as having NPCs animated to intereact for specific purposes.  So if a person who needs to mug wants to have that role playing experience, and wants to target a commoner, it would be reasonable to wish for a commmoner npc to be animated to take part in the role playing.

[Armaddict]

You don't have to be rich to be a good target, bud.

[Meatwad]

Correct, you just have to be a newbie.

[Armaddict]

Way to go.  You got the point of the thread.

And yes, that's sarcasm.

[Bestatte]

You can assume that a PC is virtually mugging virtual people, and using the virtual sids they get from their virutal pockets to buy virtual food and water they need when they are virtually there while their player is logged out.

When the player is logged in, he will (rightly, in my opinion) go after non-virtual entities, because the character is coded to require non-virtual sids to buy non-virtual food and water.

I don't really think it's a good comparison, in other words.

[Bogre]

Of all the deaths I've had, I've been very disappointed to die in all of them. But, I've always found the RP of my next character to be intensely engrossing, and I've always seem to like the new character more than the previous one. Except for one, cause I'm really really bummed out about one of my deaths, but its ok, cause its gone, and I'm more or less over it. And now I'm playing another intensely fun character.

The whole point is to try again. Try again, make something thats easier to play, easier to survive with.

[Trenidor]

I didn't bother reading any of this other than the first page and a half and a post here and there....


Since I have no clue why this argument has taken place, I'm just going to say some of the ways I get out of looking like a n00b:

1. Change your clothes within the first 2 hrs of the game...that's what it's for, you get all that money, and free death time for 2 hrs, use it for what it's for.

2. Emote often to people that your char hasn't met. It lays out what some of your habits are, as well as alows your character to show personality, later on you can get lazy with those people (like me  )

3. Make LONG descs on your chars, to show description, and to show that you know how to make them.


Bla bla bla

If you are a n00b, you'll still wear around your n00b clothes. If you want to not be targeted by the jerks that kill n00bs, you should probably at least change your clothes and look good.

[Trenidor]

Now that I read some more on topic, I realized that you're talking about death now, and I'd like to say that I don't like most of my deaths (actually that's not true anymore)

In the begining, I hated to see characters die, then I had a really cool character that changed everything when they died. From then on I wanted to get another character like that one, comming really close some times, but then doing something stupid and geting me killed. After a while I've given up on trying to get a character as cool as that one, and have gone to trying out different things that seamed fun.

[Meatwad]

A fun trick would be to keep your newbie clothes somewhere, and when you get your uber awesome warrior skills maxxed out, change into them, emote poorly, and totally destroy anyone who tries to mess with you.  Ah, good times.

[Trenidor]

A fun trick would be to keep your newbie clothes somewhere, and when you get your uber awesome warrior skills maxxed out, change into them, emote poorly, and totally destroy anyone who tries to mess with you.  Ah, good times.

lol hey, that's what I Was planing on doing! I should post it on the thread about things I'd like to do some day.

[Forest Junkie]

It's been done.

[X-D]

Many times by many people.

[spawnloser]

Better idea...kill a newbie and dress in his/her newbie gear to draw the rest of the newbie-killers to you.

[wizturbo]

Elves aren't natural psychopaths anymore than humans are.  If there is a trend for them to be played in that manner, then it arises from players who don't understand that thievery does not equate to murder, and are frusturated because of the lack of role-play options for elves.

I'm glad that you are deciding to give it another try.  My first character died in the Gaj (and I mean IN the Gaj), in a manner just as inexcusable as yours did.  My first thoughts however were "Woah... this game really IS harsh!"

Welcome to Armageddon.

Sorry, but if I played an elven thief, I'd probably kill as many of my targets as possible if they saw me.  Why leave a witness alive to rat you out to the templarate?  But, most elven thieves are not muggers.  They are pickpockets, because being sneaky is far less dangerous then murdering people.

[EvilRoeSlade]

What does that have to do with the fact that elves aren't naturally psychopaths, and they're being screwed over by the current clan setup?

[spawnloser]

Nothing, ERS...in fact, it didn't from the beginning.  Elves can join clans all they want.  There are quite a few clans that will take them...just not the noble ones.

This is about someone feeling victimized as a newbie.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I was offering it as an explanation as to why elves seem to PK out of proportion to the rest of us.

I don't think elves are psychopaths, and I don't think the original poster should have anticipated that the elf would try to kill him.  If he was less flat-footed, he would have anticipated that anyone could potentially try to kill him, but there isn't any reason to think that an elf would do it more often than a human, despite assertions to the contrary.  That's why I don't think that it should be put in the documentation that elves are ruthless killers.

[spawnloser]

I was offering it as an explanation as to why elves seem to PK out of proportion to the rest of us.

I don't think elves are psychopaths, and I don't think the original poster should have anticipated that the elf would try to kill him.  If he was less flat-footed, he would have anticipated that anyone could potentially try to kill him, but there isn't any reason to think that an elf would do it more often than a human, despite assertions to the contrary.  That's why I don't think that it should be put in the documentation that elves are ruthless killers.

Oh, agreed wholeheartedly.  In fact, with the elven ideal of theft, they would probably kill less often than a human...there being little art to murder for the sake of theft.  Granted, anyone dragging you to a place not patrolled by 'the law' should be anticipated to want to stick a large blade between your shoulders.

[Quirk]

Sorry, but if I played an elven thief, I'd probably kill as many of my targets as possible if they saw me.  Why leave a witness alive to rat you out to the templarate?  But, most elven thieves are not muggers.  They are pickpockets, because being sneaky is far less dangerous then murdering people.

What makes you think a templar would care?

Unless your victim is someone important, or you're caught flagrantly committing a crime in a public place, you're unlikely to be sought after. Even if you are, you can afford to lie low for a bit on the proceeds and have your fame as a thief broadcast to every other elf in town. Killing is unnecessary and clumsy. More than that, people tend to have inhibitions about killing other people, and it would be nice to see them being RPed for a change, rather than seeing players fall into a hack-and-slasher's PK mentality.

If you don't leave your witnesses alive, who's going to back up your boasting of your thiefly skills? Remember that that is what an elven reputation rests on.

Quirk

[spawnloser]

Of course, it would be better if none of those roundears knew you had their stuff until later rather than as you clumsily lift it from them, but whatever.

[Xygax]

I read over Similion's initial account, and I've scanned some of this thread, but parts of it have decended into flaming and others have taken gentle tangents into other areas.

First, to address Sim's issue:

There is no such thing as a "newbie" bar.  Newbies "spawn" in a number of different places, not just one bar in one city, and then wander aimlessly and beyond the understanding of even the finest minds.  No player can assume you're a newbie simply because you happen to be sitting in a particular tavern.

Furthermore, because this is an RPI mud, we -expect- the players NOT to take out-of-character concerns/constraints/etc. into account when playing their roles.  Often, this leads to a rather brutal environment for new players, something that I'm afraid no level of documentation is likely to truly prepare you for.  The word "harsh" occurs in twenty different documents in our help system, and the word "brutal" appears in ten (and I'm not even bothering to count how many individual occurences there are .  I'm not sure the issue can be stated more strongly.

All that said, I do think we as the staff do have some opportunities to improve the introduction that newbies recieve, and we are always discussing this issue amongst ourselves and evaluating player feedback.  The best way to provide feedback on things like this is to mail mud@ginka.armageddon.org directly, rather than to post your frustrated remarks on the GDB...  Careless posting of IC events on this board taints the RP environment for everyone.

Was the player who killed you wrong?  Well, perhaps it depends on what your definition of wrong is.  Strictly speaking, he doesn't seem to have committed any major infractions or violated any explicit rules of the mud, which is why a lot of the other posts in this thread are arguing in favor of his actions.  I think that's a bit black-and-white: in the larger vision of the mud, it's probably better if the veterans try their best to provide a playable environment for new players....  if this is not within your character's nature, veteran, then perhaps you might consider picking another target for your predatory activities, at least until the new player has had a chance to gain his bearings.  I know that this is at odds with my previous remarks, and the balance is difficult, but it's also difficult to avoid the fact that you might be preying on the newbie OOCly rather than ICly.  There is definitely a sense in this case (and in other cases I've encountered of veterans preying on newbies) of the veteran exploiting his OOC knowledge of the stamina code (and his OOC knowledge based on your clothing, your location, your poor emoting, etc. -- whatever the indicator might be -- that you're a new player), to put you into a position that you could not OOCly anticipate.

If such OOC analysis occured, then this is not good RP on the veteran's part, by any stretch.  And if it could be firmly proven, I would frown on play like this rather strongly.

I'd like to see more veterans feel encouraged to find ways to positively interact with new players...  that doesn't mean giving them coins, items, or jobs...  it just means RPing -with- them (and hopefully, at least for a few days, not -against- them), giving them an idea of what is expected, and maybe even (Tek forbid) directing them to helpers/documentation/etc. with the OOC command.  I'd like to see that, but it isn't required.  And this is definitely -not- your grandmother's Diku MUD.  There's no Temple, no Rooks and Pawns to hack-n-slash kill, and no free lunch/free items/free help.  Even the people who are helping you (the elf that gave you 30 'sid) are probably trying to get something from you, too...  sometimes it's a mutually helpful relationship.  Usually they're trying to screw you over.

-- X

[Geekfreak]

My advice:

1. Be a human
2. Buy protective stuff
3. Buy yourself a nice weapon
4. Try not to speak to anyone who is alone or isn't writing good emotes; chances are, they may be a noob hunter
5. Try to get a job; if your'e with a house, anyone will think twice before they try killing you.

Folow these few steps and  you might survive in Zalanthas. Remember, those in Zalanthas are tough, they have to be in order to survive in the harsh environment!

-GF

[sarahjc]

SO I typed all this out before I saw how long this thread was.. But I put in the effort so. I am going to say it.

I could think of worse ways to die.. Also keep in mind that this person may be a a newbie himself. Maybe not as new as you, but a newbie in the sense of not fully grasping the right and wrong of things.  Most of the seasoned players know better.. and not attack newbies and then again, some are just mean.

Regardless, I don't see the big deal, he did lead you (with some Rp I would think) out of the city, he did run you down (With some Rp I would think). And he was an elf.. Never trust elves.. Nothing he did was twinkish or out of Character for a raiding elf.

So the "Can't keep up, now you must die!" line was a bit much, he could have thought of something more creative, but a cheesy saying does not a poor roleplayer make. The fact that he sat and talked with you and lured you out of the city, and bothered to say something before he killed you is probably a bit more than most get.. Maybe it would have been a better death had he have said, "I am going to kill you now so that I can take your weapons and whatever coin you may have." But he didn't. shrug.. I don't ask how your RP was, because you are a newbie.. and the players should be setting the example for you.. Not the other way around.

Basically someone welcomed you into just how difficult and harsh this game is, and that you can trust no-one. People will kill you for your shoes.. He may have seen piece of gear that you had on, and thought.. "Hrm.. Lets see if he wants to go hunting..I could use a nice pair of spiked gauntlets." Or saw you walk into a strange bar looking confused and thought.. "He must be from one of the local villages."

Is he taking advantage of the fact that you are a newbie? Maybe, I don't know. But more so, he is taking advantage of the PC. And now you know that when an elf asks you to go hunting alone.. even if you are an elf yourself.. You should not go.

Also you said that you were playing a half elf.. They are hated by both Humans and Elves.. Nobody is befriending -you-.. People follow the docs when it comes to prejudices in this game, I would read the ones on social class very carefully and expect people to follow them. Granted your PC should be eager to make friends, but know better than to trust people.. -You-  have been kicked around and discriminated against your whole life. If one player decided to be nice to you and give you a bit of coin, well that was lucky for you.

I am sorry that you had dirt kicked in your face your first time out,  That does stink. And if you are a clear Newbie, fumbling with the sit command.. It may be a bit cruel even. But.. You did learn something.. So.. an all bad experience.. Maybe not. I say role with it and move on to the next PC.. Whatever you do.. Do -not try to avenge your last PC's death.

Is newbie killing OK? Well, I think it depends on how it is done. I would rather that my first PC have been killed at the hands of another player, with some cool RP, then an NPC guard like she was.

Just my take on it.