Effect of RPTs on Economy

For a harsh desert world, Zalanthas sure sees a bounty during RPTs. I couldn't believe how much "loot" there was lying around for the taking after yesterday's HRPT. So much, in fact, that it hurt the game in my opinion. Why spend so much effort struggling just to get by when you know the next RPT is going to leave you literally swimming in sid and equipment? I think the economy seriously suffers as a result of these big events.

Here's what I suggest for future RPTs:

1. The equipment for any involved monsters/npcs should not be sellable at the stores. If you find a shield on an invading mantis, you can use it...but you shouldn't be able to exchange it at Salarr for sid. Realistically, this doesn't apply to natural resources like mantis shells, but it should apply to everything else.

2. The quality of this equipment should generally be lower than what most characters can purchase or make.

3. Major cities should have a "no looting" rule, not just for dead pcs but also for monsters and npcs. Anything that falls in the streets should belong to the city. The compensation for defending the city should come in the form of payment by the templars overseeing the battle. People can of course try their hand at looting, but if they are caught they will be punished.

4. After a period of time, the imms running the event should clean up the rooms with any remaining corpses and equipment instead of waiting for the next formal reboot.

I think this would go a long way toward keeping the Zalanthan economy viable, and making those sids you worked so hard to save up more meaningful.

Any thoughts?

[jhunter]

There were people slain for getting caught looting and other IC things going on to cut down on it. Some people chose to ignore it and lost their pcs.

*shrugs*

[Nidhogg]

I haven't discussed this with the other imm types, but I think these ideas have merit. Are they feasible? I suppose we'll kick that around. If they aren't feasible, perhaps we can make them possible.

[ShaLeah]

I like it the way it is.

Death is almost always a gain for -somebody- on Zalanthas, be it political, emotional or economical.  Scavengers from the slimy sewers of the rinth can instantly gather enough loot to leave the cursed alleys and make a better life for themselves outside. Starving people can sell gathered things to feed themselves, nobles can breathe easier knowing that all too knowing spy is now gone forever, he had a nice dagger too.

Looting or any attempts to stop looting by anyone other than the law, add realism to the game.  Sid is invaluable, it carries the strength of social class and among the common populace, it is often the catalyst to murder, corruption and betrayal, all of which I think we can agree we wish to keep.   :twisted:


To address the selling of monster NPC loot, I've never killed a gith (whose standard gear gets a measly amount) with a custom made salarri set of silt horror armor or something equally as unrealistic.
To address the quality of gear, I find that the PC population is not the norm, they are indeed the people who are outstanding in the game for some reason or another and I for one will not turn my back on gaining the loot of an 80 day warrior who just so happens to have great stuff just because it's in some way hurting the mud economy (which it's not imo).
To address the no looting rule, as I understand it, the law in each city state already does this by forbidding it or dispatching people to gather it for their own profit. Other looters can also kill a blocker who stands between he and that sac of sid too.
To address the Imms cleaning up, the mud has a pretty good cap on the amount of equipment NPCs have in these RPT's, stores only accept so many of each thing and only have so much coin so selling a good thing of loot might take years or better yet, would involve other pcs. Couple that with the fact that shitty gear gets a shitty price, a non haggler will not be able to get a great profit, NPC's have appropriate, not excesssive things and the inevitable death of the people who gather this stuff, I think the system is good as it is. This is the only idea I don't really mind actually.  

I'd like the responsibility to play responsibly to lie within the hands of the player (yes, I know, dare to dream) so that if you're playing a halfling, you're not going to stop and gather HG armor but if you are a HG who loves collecting trinkets, you will be giggling with glee at your new found luck only to be swindled out of most of the good shit by Opportunist number 78.

I'd be disappointed if the system changed dramatically, it's one of the reasons RPTs are so precious, there is great loss and sometimes, if you're lucky, even greater gain.


ShaLeah
-who sits in her pile of imaginary loot and screeches happily...

[sarahjc]

Well with this rpt people were not allowed loot within the city as Jhunter had stated. And yes, other IC events also cut down on the corpse count tremendously.

But I think it is fine the way it is.. Its one of the fun things for people to do after the RPT. With all honesty RPT's are so far apart, that if your PC makes it from one to the next.. You are an old PC and even still if you are a fighting type, you will buy a few new things in between.

I like to think of HRPT's like Christmas Shopping time. A bunch of people buy the best gear they can and set out to battle, I mean shops are almost barren if you walk in just befor a battle.  A bunch die, other people loot all that they can wear and sell.. and what do you think they buy with it?? Better Gear, drinks, spice, whores, clothing.. It all gets cycled back into the economy.. Most people live for today in Zalanthas and don't worry about tomorrow.

Then all the folks that died get to make new apps, that will most likely get approved that day or the next and what will they need?.. New gear.. So the cycle continues. It's like the day after Christmas sales.  

Also keep in mind that this is a place that people will kill you for a sid. The people that play PC's are a small percentage of the population, and since we all want to have fun, we all tend to be a bit above the filthy tattered norm.  But looting a corpse is expected, in fact, I am sure that most looters are getting ready to strike before the battle begins. If anything I would like to see a few ratty NPC looters ripping things off of corpses...

Now for the Mantis shield, the Salarr shop is probably picky about it and wont take it, they have an image to maintain and that is most likely an image that does not involve selling Mantis gear. But that doesn't mean that filthy elf up in the tribal market won't try to make a sid off it.

Also another fact to consider is that there is only so much the NPC's in shops can purchase back, and only so much you can wear and wield. After that it's all going to get junked eventually

And why should the city clean up everything.. There was a huge effort after this RPT. Do you know what a task cleaning up a ruined city is.. It's not like they have the NYC sanitation department on the job.  I don't see very many street sweepers in Zalanthas. I like the fact that there are remnants of a battle for a few days..RL days. Fowl smelling funeral pyres and a few bloody rags, a corpse here and there, a tattered piece of armor or a broken knife, otherwise things would just look like nothing ever happened.

Honestly I think the system is fine the way it is... and I really liked the PC interaction and the way clean up was dealt with in this one..

But that's just my opinion.

[My 2 sids]

I think the biggest thing is to make it known Icly the difference between looting and savaging.   It's perfectly reasonable that people scrabble to pick up what little they can get, thus I'm sure many times looting a dead body shouldn't and wouldn't be frowned upon.  Code wise I see flags going up for people who loot known important people... slave, soldiers, nobles.  For commoner workers, perhaps they could code objects (such as house bands/colors/armor) so if someone is caught trying to sell it, they get picked up.  Looting I see more as being handled totally IC instead of coded.   I think some people might see looting as going against one's citizenship or at least calling it into question.  Templars, because of their own need for money, I could easily see as fining or arresting those who are just picking up everything.  And finally, I would think Nenyuk would want to alert the authorities if some one who usually has maybe 50 sids to his name suddenly brings in eight thousand.  So much sudden money just begs to be investigated.

As for the bodies and clean up, I agree that I could see the Imms cleaning up most of the bodies, maybe leaving a few for the independents or whatever.  To make things easier maybe just have the Imms give some coin to each clan... that would cover the clan itself collecting money and profiting off of being involved.  Then the clan can simply give pay to the pcs involved.

[marko]

After any war there will be looters.  The good looters will be able to take up as much as they can and sell it.  They may even make a fair amount of coin.

So what?

It's part of life or death.

I don't think there is a need to make items that would otherwise be sellable non-sellable.  I really don't see the purpose there.  What are the shopkeepers going to say?  "I have enough of those already?"  Well, they already do if they have 'enough of those already.'

A war is a rare event, a large battle is a rare event, so let those that survive live off the spoils.

Besides, following the original logic - if a party of Byn falls over the shield wall and they all die - should all the gear not be sellable as well?

As for making the gear of lesser quality - that all depends on the nature of the attackers.  Some would have cheap gear and some would have expensive.  I say equip the participants in what makes sense.  Leaders would have good stuff, rank and file would have rank and file.  

In the HRPT I believe the balance was very well done.

[ShaLeah]

A war is a rare event, a large battle is a rare event, so let those that survive live off the spoils.

Praise the Highlord! Amen brother.

[Delirium]

The term 'spoils of war' exists for a reason.

Scavengers, no-good down and dirty looters, and similar types will exist. I'd be more worried about whether or not it's IC for those people to loot the fallen rather than worry about how much 'sid they get for it. For most, however, it probably was perfectly in character.

Now, by loot I mean 'grab the expensive looking stuff and ditch the rest', I don't mean 'get all corpse' 'flee self'.

[jhunter]

Yes, and they should also keep in mind that there are those that might have a problem with them scavenging off those that died in defense of their homes and have a little tact about it.

I saw people walking around, blatantly looting in front of those that were fighting in defense of the city, walking up and pouncing on the bodies like a starved animal, I mean come on...use your heads.

Would you walk up and begin stealing things off a dead cop's body right in front of other cops?

Probably not, and if you did do it you would probably get shot or at least thrown in jail for it.

I think there's nothing wrong with the way things are, I do think in those situations that people should rp looting or scavenging off bodies a bit more realistically.

I saw some people doing these things, and I'm glad they were killed for it.

[Gilvar]

Loot should maintain the same cost it would if the the things existed in the world.

There is no logical reason why mantis would use devalued or otherwise poor quality weapons. The goal should not be an ooc one. And currently that is "Lets stop characters looting by devaluing equipment."

Instead think of an IC goal and keep things the same. Have soldiers arrest/kill those looting in the heat of battle (I think this was done).

Riots are a great source of loot. Panick, general chaos are great covers for thievery and profit and should remain so.


A hindsight solution would've been more mantis specific gear. Breastplates with like six-arm holes, more mantis fighting sticks, etc. Things no shopkeeper would logical be interested in, and then it could be flagged accordingly to devalue it.

But devaluing things with a realistic value is not sensical.

As in everything, realism needs to be balanced against gameplay. Of course, the ideal is to achieve both, and any ideas in that regard (such as having more mantis-specific gear) are helpful.

My concern is not with looting per se, but with the effect of a mass influx of free equipment on the economy. I bet if the imms were to look at the bank accounts of pcs before and after the HRPT, they would see a significant difference. I believe it is contrary to the spirit of the game, and encourages people to twink instead of enjoying the roleplaying experience for its own sake. The Zalanthan economy suffers as a result.

Should characters be compensated for risking their lives in the defense of their city? Of course. My character was paid extremely well by the templarate for his part. There was no need for the mounds of loot lying in the street on top of that.

As to what happened yesterday, in my experience people were told not to loot pcs but they were indiscriminately grabbing everything they could hold off the monsters and npcs. That too is unrealistic.

I'm just asking people to step back and look at the big picture.

[da mitey warrior]

Supply and demand.

After a big battle the price paid for second-hand armor should plumet.  After all, there are now THOUSANDS of used breastplates on the market.  Shopkeepers for a few IC weeks should pay alot less for loot then they do normally.

[crymerci]

Frankly I think that players need to govern their own behavior better. I agree that the suggestions put forth by Xerin would help, but it's really up to the players to behave logically.

Yes, looting is going to be common during and after these events.  However, that does not mean you should be looting in front of authority figures, or even in front of witnesses, especially if you are within a city.  Throwing out an emote or two regarding how exactly you are stripping every last thing off a corpse is nice too.  In fact, if you emote it right, you could probably get away with looting in front of a templar.  For example:

say (dropping down on one knee beside ~corpse)  Joe!  Joe?  Talk to me, Joe.
say (the fall of her cloak obscuring the movements of her hands as she leans over ~corpse) Joe?  Oh Krath, no!  Not my darling Joe!
get ring corpse
get ring corpse
get coins corpse

Trust me, I learned this one the hard way, when one of my characters was killed by an authority figure for not being realistic about looting.  It sucked big time.  I still miss that character.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

You may be suprised to know that looting is a common occurance here in the real world. Some folks will be swayed by threats, and others will not. It has been this way for many years...even centuries.

In a barren, foresaken place like Zalanthas, you may be assured that such activities would be in order as well, and maybe to an even more esculated extent.

Let it happen. It only happens every six months to a year.

[Vanishing Codpiece]

This might not be a bad place to mention some of the horrible RP I saw from the sneaky types. After a huge battle, men and women were gathered around a corpse mourning the loss of one of their people, and his items started to dissapear! Whoops, no pants, whoops, no pack. Next thing we know, he's buck nekked! This happened to be a very large, heavy person too -- as in good luck moving him enough to get nearly anything off without someone noticing. I don't care if you're fucking invisible, I'm going to see his pants sliding off if I'm kneeling beside him mourning! I saw the militia nab one of the cheesers, but others were about. It was one of the worst examples of the "code allows it, so I'ma do it", when from a roleplaying perspective it would have never been remotely possible. Players like that should have their karma set to toilet brush. :evil:

Abuse like that aside, I'd have little concern over the spoils of war (or riots as the case may be).

[Anonymous]

Loot RP gets on my nerves, I'll admit it.

During one RPT I watched a team of 3 PCs, in the aftermath of a world-changing battle that featured all sorts of freakishness, going around doing a 'get all corpse' ad nauseum, then rushing to the shops to sell and rushing back as fast as can be.

Sometimes I guess people are just too cool to RP their PCs being even moderately affected by stuff that is supposed to be scary.

I have a strong feeling that's why there was a message during the RPT yesterday to the effect of "NO, seriously, this REALLY FUCKING HURTS, stop doing stuff and pay attention."

[Bogre]

You forget how immense a citystates economy is. The economy can handle a huge influx of chitin, because hundreds of chitin armor pieces were destroyed during the siege. (VNPC since no real armor breaks.) And the same for the rest of the deal. Someone who is a scavenger that manages to pluck off all those diamonds from that poor noble who managed not to pick a safe spot to watch those soldiers defend the city from won't make a difference, its like someone making a wild investment and profitting a bunch on it.

[briktal]

Doing lots of things with bad rp aren't good.  But the corpses and loot in general aren't too bad a problem.  One reason is that the corpse might be you.  Unless you go all ubertwink and wait until the danger is gone to log in just to go and scoop up the loot, you can't count on being alive.  It's not something you can just count on.  Especially if you could get killed for it.

Some of you are getting caught up in the idea of realism and completely missing the point of the impact on the player economy.

Even though RPTs are infrequent, they so blatantly flood the game with free equipment that it goes contrary to the harsh world Zalanthas is supposed to be. Who cares about how much water costs when you can fund your character's water needs for years just based on a single RPT?

[jhunter]

Even though RPTs are infrequent, they so blatantly flood the game with free equipment that it goes contrary to the harsh world Zalanthas is supposed to be.

Many deaths caused this, how is that -not- harsh?

From what I've seen, most of the stuff is nearly worthless crap anyway...if your making that much from it...are you playing realistically?

The risk of death is compensated by the very generous payment received through the templarate. -That- is balanced.

What is -not- balanced is the flood of free equipment that people are cashing in on. I personally only picked up one item, but there were literally hundreds of shields, swords, knives, armor, and other equipment scattered about for the taking. And people gathered up those items en masse, to keep or trade for sid. So much for a harsh desert world.

[jhunter]

From what I saw most of these things were gathered up and burned.

*shrugs*

[Agent_137]

i think the real question is are they cashing in on all that?

If they are just using it, big deal. the mantis was using it.

Don't shop keepers refuse to buy equipment after a certain point?

hell, I went to grab a sword belt days after the battle but my buddy was like, "Hey, leave that, it's militia, they'll toss you in jail if they catch you with it."

and then I was like, "Oh."

I think this topic is in dire need of some facts. Like, take a look at the bank accounts. Check the flow of sid. look through the numbers and really SEE if it's disrupted or not.

[Anonymous]

What was with that HRPT anyways?  I don't mean the stuff in the sky or whatever, but the events in both cities.  Was that just to slaughter some players?  Did anyone have any IC inkling that so much bloodshed would happen?  Was there any hint of the things that would happen in the game?  Seems like a huge slaughter to me.