Effect of RPTs on Economy

[Agent_137]

battles are huge slaughters.

[Miee (not logged in)]

So basically, I think what Xerin's trying to suggest is a balance between the realism, and the sudden influx of sid into people's pockets.

1) Some people were taking crymerci's example to an extreme and looting unrealisitcally.
2) Now they have a bunch of sid.
3) Making money after a disaster from looting makes sense.
4) Now some of these folks are sitting pretty, thusly taking a certain level of harshness away from the world.

The city-states enforcing bans on the looting is a good thing.  This makes sense.  It won't stop people from looting (it didn't), and it can add a bit of danger to the act itself.
I like the six arm-holed mantis breastplates too.  Now that's no good to the two armed, two legged, one headed players. (+/-2)  The ability to maybe break down some of those for raw materials would be nice, but potentially unfeasible.

I'd really like it if the player-base policed itself, and played along with things the player knew was bad/untrue/etc., but from the GDB posts sometimes you bastards destroy that hope in me. :wink:

However, thieves, brigands, raiders, bad folk!  Loot and rob those who have made all that money.  Poor 'rinth rats, take your due.  Elves, take what's your's!

Looters!  Follow crymerci's example -reasonably-.  Snatch the tiny stuff, not the pants!  (If you're possessed of a smart PC, dumb PCs let yourself fuck up sometimes!)

Shopkeepers!  Stop buying some of the stuff after a panic or start paying less.  Supply and demand!

Imms!  Gimme a steel double bladed sword with rubies and diamonds in the handle of KILL ALL.

[Trenidor]

Arm is very different that our world...In our world, most people wouldn't go around looting off dead people because it would be thought of as a disgrace. In Zalanthas though, it is quite the opposite. Life is too hard to pass up a few dead bodies loaded with things that could be turned into sid.


If you think of it as in Earthen cars: After major accidents, the junkyards and other groups will buy the broken cars for parts. They then turn these into semi-new cars that are refurbished. It's kinda a scam when some people do it the way they do it, and other times it's an alright buisness.

Just like in armageddon, this is an alright buisness, and in some cases it's not alright. Looting is the norm for people that need money. Merchants can be roaming the streets for dead bodies to scavenge off of so that they can re-sell the things they find.

I think this is perfectly fine for anyone that is thrust into the situation that the people of zalanthas are put in.

Just to add to the case of all those (including me) That like to loot off dead bodies, I'll include a little knoledge I know:

The greeks, romans, anglos, persians, and many other important militarywise civilizations would raid cities, then their soldiers could take anything they wanted from the city. In some cases, commanding officers wanted it to mock their enemy. In other cases, the commanding officer didn't want it to happen and told their troops not to take part in the looting. (some of them did anyway behind their commanders' backs) The only way for an army to survive without actuall funding from a head person is to loot from the land. Seeing as how most commoners are not part of a Noble house that can give them funding, the only way for them to survive is to take it from the land.

I really hate that people bring this up. I hated it in game. And I hate it even more now that someone's taken it into public trying to get rid of it.
The only reasons I could see anyone not looting is:
A. They are in a house and therefore would not need more money
B. They want to keep up a certain social status (IG not OOC) and would be able to look down on those that actually did it.
C. Something to do with their past that causes them psycological trama whenever they do it.

The current code already prevents people enough from re-selling lootings.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NO

[Trenidor]

Oh, and I wanted to add that: IRL there are some people that follow certain groups around so they can gather their garbage:

Name: Packrats
Motto: "One man's trash is another man's treasure."


The only trouble with this occupation is that unless you have close connections, HRPTs only last every few months...You aren't going to live off lootings for that long...

Trenidor, please go back and read what is being suggested here. The problem is not that Zalanthans wouldn't loot. It is that there is so much loot to be had. It breaks the economy to see such a dramatic influx in such a short period of time.

[jstorrie]

There wasn't actually that much to be looted, though, Xerin.  If my character had been actively looting the entire time (he was in a position to do so) and had managed to escape the militia and angry mobs that were kiling looters (he was in a position to see that happen a couple of times, too) he would have made maybe 500 sid, tops.  That's not water for a year.

Then why have several people talked about their bank accounts increasing so much since yesterday? I know that in Tuluk the streets were absolutely flooded with loot. The one item I picked up was valued by Salarr at almost 70 sid.

And again, I didn't see anybody being busted for looting skeletons and zombies. It was only the pcs and mantis (which had already been given by the templarate to a house) that were supposedly off limits.

[Anonymous]

I think that saying looting reduces the harshness of the game or has an adverse affect on the economy is taking it a bit far.  Most looters are going to be dead in 3 weeks anyways, so what's the big deal?  They'll leave a big bank account behind.

I'd just wish for more from looters than 'get all corpse;e;e;e;e;e;e;s;offer sword;barter;offer pants;barter;offer shirt;barter;open pack;get coins pack;i;put 1273 coins pack;close pack;w;w;w;w;w;w;w;n;get all 2.corpse;e;e;e;e;e;e;e;e;s;offer shoes;barter;offer boots;barter;offer brazier;barter;open pack;get coins pack;i;e;e;e;e;e;e;deposit 1341;save

[Trenidor]

Trenidor, please go back and read what is being suggested here. The problem is not that Zalanthans wouldn't loot. It is that there is so much loot to be had. It breaks the economy to see such a dramatic influx in such a short period of time.

Yes, IRL, it ruins the ecomomy because shops don't have people they can sell things to when they can just get it off the streets.

If you didn't realize...merchants can go out there and gather all the valuable stuff just as easily as any of the poor people. They can then resell it.

-AND-

Just because people have lots of money doesn't mean that the whole economy is ruined. That's actually an improvement to the economy because then there is more to be sold and more money around to buy stuff with.

[Trenidor]

Death of people in their own town isn't a loss of economy, it's just a recirculatoin of all that money that started there.

The reason economies suffer durring times of war is because the money put into soldiers dissapears when planes explode, or it'll enter some other contries economy.

The point is that it is not the economy Zalanthas is supposed to have:

The world of Armageddon is known as Zalanthas. It is a harsh planet where only the fittest survive, and competition over extremely scarce resources causes constant strife, struggle, and bloodshed.

What I saw last night was the opposite of "extremely scarce resources".

[Trenidor]

Things are different in times of war...

There are no rules to what can happen and there is nothing that can be done about it.

By the end of this week I'll bet that most of the money out there will have been spent and gone.

Spent on what? The goods bought with the money wouldn't have been possible in the first place without the original influx. The money doesn't just disappear from the economy...it makes characters better equipped, less thirsty, and so on than would otherwise be the case. In short, it is inconsistent with Zalanthas being a harsh desert world.

That is why I think the money that flows through an RPT event should be moderated. There have been some good suggestions in that regard. Making more mantis-specific equipment, making it illegal to loot -any- kind of corpse in the city, imms clearing up the piles of bodies after a period of time, etc. all can help keep the game fun, challenging, and what it was intended to be.

I'm not trying to turn this into a huge issue by any means, just raising it in the awareness of the imms for future RPTs

[ashjpd]

Me, having played many merchants and having experiences with them. What I would do, if I were the shopkeepers, I would think.. hmm, war.. hmm.. mantis.. hmm.. lots of looters.. hmm.. I could buy those for less, and make 50 times as much selling it.

After all, there is gonna be a lot of people with a lot of stuff. So they are gonna have to sell that stuff for cheaper at the start anyways, cause everyone is gonna have some. But I would stock up on more now, so I can sell it later when it isnt as common.

Thats what I would do if I were one of them merchants anyways.

[Trenidor]

Apparently you are extreemly ignorant about economy and war.

I've stated it already, but here goes again:

Just because the docs say that arm is a harsh world, doesn't mean anything if war occurs. War changes everything.

Just beacuse people are rich doesn't mean they didn't pay a price for it. Several people died while trying to loot, others were cost their dignity for taking the stuff. And still others lost lost of other stuff. It wasn't like they had an easy time taking crap off people. It was still harsh to carry all that junk around in the burning hot sun while mantis were clawing ferociously at your back.

[Trenidor]

Fuck it! just cuz you don't understand doesn't mean everyone else doesn't either. :x

The way things were conducted were perfect in my overall opinion. Good Job Staff and thanks to everyone that was there to RP.  :wink:

[Agent_137]

After all, there is gonna be a lot of people with a lot of stuff.

I think this is the problem that the original poster is trying to address.

Good ideas:
More badguy specific stuff that's worthless to players.
Making looting of specifics punishable by death, if you get caught. (already in place to some effect)
Lowering the max amount that shopkeepers will buy of the stuff.
Destroying the karma of twink-looters.

Bad ideas:
making illegal to loot any corpse. (Silly silly. Looting is a realistic part of battle, and fun!)
Making bodies and equipment dissapear. (where'd it go?! Where's the aftermath? two days later and where's the evidence of a battle?!)

[marko]

That is why I think the money that flows through an RPT event should be moderated. There have been some good suggestions in that regard. Making more mantis-specific equipment, making it illegal to loot -any- kind of corpse in the city, imms clearing up the piles of bodies after a period of time, etc. all can help keep the game fun, challenging, and what it was intended to be.

I'm not trying to turn this into a huge issue by any means, just raising it in the awareness of the imms for future RPTs

You are trying to turn this into a huge issue by constantly rejecting any thoughts other than your own.

You believe that, at all times, resources should be incredibly scarce.  That's fine.  The thing is, the amount of coin brought in by the looting will not be significant in the overall scheme of things.  

Am HRPT is a rare event.  It is not as if it will happen regularly.  If there is a significant influx of coin - good.  It'll drive some more plots, make some people rich, allow some folk who wouldn't otherwise be able to rent an apartment or whatever (hire assassins perhaps)... it'll vanish within two RL months.  Let them live it up - they survived and were brazen enough to loot.

I go back to the original logic of your post.  It seems to me that you are saying that any time there is a large number of deaths - then their gear should be removed from the game before it 'affects the economy.'  I'd like to know where you draw the line.  Is it 10 fully outfitted corpses (Byn falling off the shield wall)?  Is it 100 badly outfitted corpses?  Where is your limit.  How do you determine it?  Is it the total net worth of the gear?  Does it have to be spread out amongst 125 players?  Does it have to be accessable to a large number of players?

I'd be curious to see how much coin was brought in by looters after the event.  If it averages anything under 1000 'sid per looter, then I don't think there is a problem.  1000 'sid goes fast.  Very fast.  I've known nobles who send over ten thousand coin into the game on a weekly basis - all it did was create plots, threads, weaves, and events.  

Why did I pick that 1000 'sid mark?  Because new characters, on average, bring that much in each time they are created.  And yet when there is an influx of new characters the amount of coin entering the player economy is not significant - the majority ends up in NPC merchants.

If the players sit on their looted coin - it'll vanish when they die.  If they spend it in shops then it vanishes to NPC merchants and their gear has potential to vanish when they die.  If they spend it on PC merchants - great!  Now the PC merchants horde it in their bank account and when they die it will vanish.  If they use it to hire someone or use it to pay another PC in some manner - awesome because now it's being used to spark new interactions and plots.

I'd then have to say that the coin generated by the survivors is useful to the game.  I'll also say that within two RL months it will be bled out of the player economy and back into the virtual economy.

In your case you say your character was paid by the templarate.  Good for you!  Not all characters were.  I imagine very few characters were actually paid in the HRPT.  I know all the characters that mine interacted with weren't paid.  Why do I mention this?  Because those characters that survived (be it through valor, cowardice, trickery, or downright luck) should be rewarded in some manner.  And they were.  There was plenty of loot to go around apparently.  

Now to focus on the logic of your suggestion.  If dropped items in such an event were 'flagged' as unsellable - then you have a situation where it is possible that in one RL year someone goes to a shop and tries to sell a sword that was dropped.  The shopkeeper then tells them "I refuse to buy that!" and turns around to promptly buy the exact same item.  How can you begin to explain that?  That's so incredibly jarring at an OOC level.  

There is no need to duplicate items (to make a version that isn't sellable or sells for less) nor is there a need to immediately reboot after an HRPT.  I believe what happened in the HRPT and the events after the HRPT were handled and managed extremely well.  I really don't think there is a need to alter how it happened afterwards.  Was their 'unrealistic' looting?  Probably.  And yet, masses of of people crawling over the fallen and stealing their stuff is pretty realistic in my opinion.  The vultures descend upon any battlefield and feed.

Perhaps some more NPCs (VNPCs as well) looting and ravaging the corpses would have been cool.  And it woulda removed the gear that Xerin seems to think was too luxurious.  Although in the end, I don't think it's really it really warrants that.  The coin made may have created a bubble of wealth but I'm actually quite skeptical of even that.  Perhaps a minority made some 'good coin' but I don't think the majority was suddenly enriched by leaps and bounds.  I could be wrong and even if I am, I think the influx will be good for while it lasts (two months max).

I say LOOOOOT! and LOOT some more.

Most of the people are poor and probably desperate. They'd be looting unless there was, which there was, reasons not to be.  Some wouldn't because they were afraid of getting caught and most PCs belong to houses or organizations, so looting the fallen defenders of the city would probably not be smiled upon. But the average commoner or someone dressed like a commoner..would probably loot en mass when they could get away with it and not be singled out.Mobs are good.  Someone said the Nenyuk might report you for having a bunch of sids? What do nenyuk care who is storing the sids, unless they get additional sids for tattling. I mean the Nenyuk keeps all the dead ppl's sids anyway.

Some looting NPC's and VNPC's would be nice.

[Angela Christine]

Spent on what? The goods bought with the money wouldn't have been possible in the first place without the original influx. The money doesn't just disappear from the economy...it makes characters better equipped, less thirsty, and so on than would otherwise be the case. In short, it is inconsistent with Zalanthas being a harsh desert world.

So move to Red Storm.  The one major RPT involving RS had the entire village engulfed in a silt wave.  I didn't play back then, but I doubt there was much loot to be had.    I'm not just being snide here, some people find that Red Storm has more of the harsh/brutal desert world feeling than the other towns.  There are no foofy nobles, and so no foofy noble house guards.  There are rarely more than 2 or 3 organizations actively hiring, so you don't get swamped be recruiters  the moment you show up in a tavern wearing your newbie suit.  You can go indepenant, but resources are actually scarce, shops sell high and buy low, the beasties outside the city are very dangerous, water is frighteningly expensive, and the residents are a motly crew of misfits and dirty bastards.  It is great.


As for RPT windfalls, I think you are over-estimating the real effect.  Yes, there are a couple weeks of relative prosperity for lucky looters, but so what?  Most of the money will either be pissed away or put in the bank.  When the looter dies next week, the money in the bank will DISAPPEAR from the economy.  Nenyuk doesn't share.  The fancy gear he bought may or may not disappear.  Some beasties will  eat entire corpses, including everything they corpse is "wearing".  If you see two good weapons lying on the ground near a giant animal, there is a good chance that the PC died (dropping the things in his hands) and then the animal ate him.  Yum.  If he doesn't get eatten, the equipment will disapear in the next reboot unless another PC finds the corpse.  If another PC does loot the corpse, he will be able to sell the equipment for 1/6 or maybe 1/4 what the other guy paid for it.  Each time money is converted into equipment and then back into sids, you lose about 75% of the value.  

The money really does disappear, and faster than you might expect.



The idea of non-standard races having non-standard equipment is a good one.  Gith are stinky bastards, so while their armor isn't complete trash (I've had poor characters wear gith armor) it sells for less than similar items that are not stinky.  Mantis are an odd shape, even their hands are different than those of humanoids, so human stores might devalue their gear because it will have to be modified to be useful to their humanoid customers.  Even halfling gear should count as non-standard, because among other humanoids only small children could wear it and small children don't need armor (you can have it tailored to your size, but having an item tailored to a much larger size costs a fortune, as any half-giant can tell you).  Human and standard demi-human races don't want these things, because their customers don't want them, so their only value is as "raw" material to be modified, torn apart and made into new items.


AC

Thanks all for the feedback and observations. I think we've come up with some good ideas for the imms to consider for future RPTs.

Angela, I think you're right that economic inflation is not as big a problem in a game like Armageddon as in most other online RPGs. It does have an impact though, and I would like to see some of the ideas discussed here implemented, such as having more gear that is unusable or otherwise relatively worthless to most pcs.

[Boggis]

Loot RP gets on my nerves, I'll admit it.

During one RPT I watched a team of 3 PCs, in the aftermath of a world-changing battle that featured all sorts of freakishness, going around doing a 'get all corpse' ad nauseum, then rushing to the shops to sell and rushing back as fast as can be.

While I don't mind loot RP if its done realisitically I personally I think "get all corpse" should be a command that is disabled permanantly. Make them type out every piece of gear that they want to take from the body so they're slowed down at least a little. Seeing somebody stoop over a corpse and whipping off everything in a nanosecond looks pretty jarring.

[Gesht]

Xerin,

- - As I understand it, your concern is that the sudden appearence of large amounts of goods should have a significant impact on the economy, in keeping with the shortage-of-goods aspect of the game. It actually has a subtle impact on the economy, and I will explain why.

- - During a war in Zalanthas, you typically have wealthy people shifting resources into fighting.  When people die, these resources are then looted.  Where do they go?  Assuming I looted 2,000 sid worth of armor and weapons, I will make 700 'sid from Salarr.  This equipment originally came from Salarr.  In a sense, they rented it to its owner.  The resource has returned from whence it came.  While I have added resources to the economy, the owner of the item is no longer there to produce new resources in the form of activity (gathering resources, making it possible for others to produce resources).

- - As for the money, it will go right back into the same economy it came from.  Remember, economic activity is human activity (well, or metahuman activity in some cases).  If there are no people, money is little more than shiny disks of volcanic glass.  I spend some of my money, part of which goes to the city through tax, another part is stolen, another part eventually makes its way into the hands of the employers of the person I looted.

- - All-in-all, the economy has a sudden increase in physical resources paired with a simultaneous decrease in metahuman and monitary resources.  Things would be a little funky for a short time, but they quickly even out. Also, please remember that in the 11 or 12 years Arm has been around, there have only been 3 HRPTs.  Normal RPTs tend to have low payoffs.

[Twilight]

HRPTs are special.  They represent times and events that make and break individuals.  Soldiers are promoted based on bravery.  Many others die.  Fortunes are made.  Fortunes are lost.  Items of historical significance pop up, and your character might actually get their hands on them.  Risk vs reward.

Gesht, there are really two economies in the game: the NPC economy and the player economy. While the two do interact, I'm more concerned with the latter. The NPC economy isn't "real" in the sense that it has infinite supply, although it does moderate demand to some extent by the number of items an NPC is willing to buy.

My real concern is with the player economy. When players suddenly have access to a huge influx of free resources, a few things happen:

1. The need to struggle for survival is lowered, and Zalanthas thus becomes less of a "harsh desert world".

2. The roleplaying value of the HRPT experience is relatively lessened and can become dominated by the rush for "free loot".

3. Players are more likely to twink out rather than behave in a manner consistent with their characters and the environment.

4. The inflationary effect has negative repercussions for PC merchants, since there is now less demand for any goods that have flooded the market.

You do have a good point about the infrequency of HRPTs. Instead of keeping the occurrence of HRPTs low, I would rather see more HRPTs with less loot