Effect of RPTs on Economy

For a harsh desert world, Zalanthas sure sees a bounty during RPTs. I couldn't believe how much "loot" there was lying around for the taking after yesterday's HRPT. So much, in fact, that it hurt the game in my opinion. Why spend so much effort struggling just to get by when you know the next RPT is going to leave you literally swimming in sid and equipment? I think the economy seriously suffers as a result of these big events.

Here's what I suggest for future RPTs:

1. The equipment for any involved monsters/npcs should not be sellable at the stores. If you find a shield on an invading mantis, you can use it...but you shouldn't be able to exchange it at Salarr for sid. Realistically, this doesn't apply to natural resources like mantis shells, but it should apply to everything else.

2. The quality of this equipment should generally be lower than what most characters can purchase or make.

3. Major cities should have a "no looting" rule, not just for dead pcs but also for monsters and npcs. Anything that falls in the streets should belong to the city. The compensation for defending the city should come in the form of payment by the templars overseeing the battle. People can of course try their hand at looting, but if they are caught they will be punished.

4. After a period of time, the imms running the event should clean up the rooms with any remaining corpses and equipment instead of waiting for the next formal reboot.

I think this would go a long way toward keeping the Zalanthan economy viable, and making those sids you worked so hard to save up more meaningful.

Any thoughts?

[jhunter]

There were people slain for getting caught looting and other IC things going on to cut down on it. Some people chose to ignore it and lost their pcs.

*shrugs*

[Nidhogg]

I haven't discussed this with the other imm types, but I think these ideas have merit. Are they feasible? I suppose we'll kick that around. If they aren't feasible, perhaps we can make them possible.

[ShaLeah]

I like it the way it is.

Death is almost always a gain for -somebody- on Zalanthas, be it political, emotional or economical.  Scavengers from the slimy sewers of the rinth can instantly gather enough loot to leave the cursed alleys and make a better life for themselves outside. Starving people can sell gathered things to feed themselves, nobles can breathe easier knowing that all too knowing spy is now gone forever, he had a nice dagger too.

Looting or any attempts to stop looting by anyone other than the law, add realism to the game.  Sid is invaluable, it carries the strength of social class and among the common populace, it is often the catalyst to murder, corruption and betrayal, all of which I think we can agree we wish to keep.   :twisted:


To address the selling of monster NPC loot, I've never killed a gith (whose standard gear gets a measly amount) with a custom made salarri set of silt horror armor or something equally as unrealistic.
To address the quality of gear, I find that the PC population is not the norm, they are indeed the people who are outstanding in the game for some reason or another and I for one will not turn my back on gaining the loot of an 80 day warrior who just so happens to have great stuff just because it's in some way hurting the mud economy (which it's not imo).
To address the no looting rule, as I understand it, the law in each city state already does this by forbidding it or dispatching people to gather it for their own profit. Other looters can also kill a blocker who stands between he and that sac of sid too.
To address the Imms cleaning up, the mud has a pretty good cap on the amount of equipment NPCs have in these RPT's, stores only accept so many of each thing and only have so much coin so selling a good thing of loot might take years or better yet, would involve other pcs. Couple that with the fact that shitty gear gets a shitty price, a non haggler will not be able to get a great profit, NPC's have appropriate, not excesssive things and the inevitable death of the people who gather this stuff, I think the system is good as it is. This is the only idea I don't really mind actually.  

I'd like the responsibility to play responsibly to lie within the hands of the player (yes, I know, dare to dream) so that if you're playing a halfling, you're not going to stop and gather HG armor but if you are a HG who loves collecting trinkets, you will be giggling with glee at your new found luck only to be swindled out of most of the good shit by Opportunist number 78.

I'd be disappointed if the system changed dramatically, it's one of the reasons RPTs are so precious, there is great loss and sometimes, if you're lucky, even greater gain.


ShaLeah
-who sits in her pile of imaginary loot and screeches happily...

[sarahjc]

Well with this rpt people were not allowed loot within the city as Jhunter had stated. And yes, other IC events also cut down on the corpse count tremendously.

But I think it is fine the way it is.. Its one of the fun things for people to do after the RPT. With all honesty RPT's are so far apart, that if your PC makes it from one to the next.. You are an old PC and even still if you are a fighting type, you will buy a few new things in between.

I like to think of HRPT's like Christmas Shopping time. A bunch of people buy the best gear they can and set out to battle, I mean shops are almost barren if you walk in just befor a battle.  A bunch die, other people loot all that they can wear and sell.. and what do you think they buy with it?? Better Gear, drinks, spice, whores, clothing.. It all gets cycled back into the economy.. Most people live for today in Zalanthas and don't worry about tomorrow.

Then all the folks that died get to make new apps, that will most likely get approved that day or the next and what will they need?.. New gear.. So the cycle continues. It's like the day after Christmas sales.  

Also keep in mind that this is a place that people will kill you for a sid. The people that play PC's are a small percentage of the population, and since we all want to have fun, we all tend to be a bit above the filthy tattered norm.  But looting a corpse is expected, in fact, I am sure that most looters are getting ready to strike before the battle begins. If anything I would like to see a few ratty NPC looters ripping things off of corpses...

Now for the Mantis shield, the Salarr shop is probably picky about it and wont take it, they have an image to maintain and that is most likely an image that does not involve selling Mantis gear. But that doesn't mean that filthy elf up in the tribal market won't try to make a sid off it.

Also another fact to consider is that there is only so much the NPC's in shops can purchase back, and only so much you can wear and wield. After that it's all going to get junked eventually

And why should the city clean up everything.. There was a huge effort after this RPT. Do you know what a task cleaning up a ruined city is.. It's not like they have the NYC sanitation department on the job.  I don't see very many street sweepers in Zalanthas. I like the fact that there are remnants of a battle for a few days..RL days. Fowl smelling funeral pyres and a few bloody rags, a corpse here and there, a tattered piece of armor or a broken knife, otherwise things would just look like nothing ever happened.

Honestly I think the system is fine the way it is... and I really liked the PC interaction and the way clean up was dealt with in this one..

But that's just my opinion.

[My 2 sids]

I think the biggest thing is to make it known Icly the difference between looting and savaging.   It's perfectly reasonable that people scrabble to pick up what little they can get, thus I'm sure many times looting a dead body shouldn't and wouldn't be frowned upon.  Code wise I see flags going up for people who loot known important people... slave, soldiers, nobles.  For commoner workers, perhaps they could code objects (such as house bands/colors/armor) so if someone is caught trying to sell it, they get picked up.  Looting I see more as being handled totally IC instead of coded.   I think some people might see looting as going against one's citizenship or at least calling it into question.  Templars, because of their own need for money, I could easily see as fining or arresting those who are just picking up everything.  And finally, I would think Nenyuk would want to alert the authorities if some one who usually has maybe 50 sids to his name suddenly brings in eight thousand.  So much sudden money just begs to be investigated.

As for the bodies and clean up, I agree that I could see the Imms cleaning up most of the bodies, maybe leaving a few for the independents or whatever.  To make things easier maybe just have the Imms give some coin to each clan... that would cover the clan itself collecting money and profiting off of being involved.  Then the clan can simply give pay to the pcs involved.

[marko]

After any war there will be looters.  The good looters will be able to take up as much as they can and sell it.  They may even make a fair amount of coin.

So what?

It's part of life or death.

I don't think there is a need to make items that would otherwise be sellable non-sellable.  I really don't see the purpose there.  What are the shopkeepers going to say?  "I have enough of those already?"  Well, they already do if they have 'enough of those already.'

A war is a rare event, a large battle is a rare event, so let those that survive live off the spoils.

Besides, following the original logic - if a party of Byn falls over the shield wall and they all die - should all the gear not be sellable as well?

As for making the gear of lesser quality - that all depends on the nature of the attackers.  Some would have cheap gear and some would have expensive.  I say equip the participants in what makes sense.  Leaders would have good stuff, rank and file would have rank and file.  

In the HRPT I believe the balance was very well done.

[ShaLeah]

A war is a rare event, a large battle is a rare event, so let those that survive live off the spoils.

Praise the Highlord! Amen brother.

[Delirium]

The term 'spoils of war' exists for a reason.

Scavengers, no-good down and dirty looters, and similar types will exist. I'd be more worried about whether or not it's IC for those people to loot the fallen rather than worry about how much 'sid they get for it. For most, however, it probably was perfectly in character.

Now, by loot I mean 'grab the expensive looking stuff and ditch the rest', I don't mean 'get all corpse' 'flee self'.

[jhunter]

Yes, and they should also keep in mind that there are those that might have a problem with them scavenging off those that died in defense of their homes and have a little tact about it.

I saw people walking around, blatantly looting in front of those that were fighting in defense of the city, walking up and pouncing on the bodies like a starved animal, I mean come on...use your heads.

Would you walk up and begin stealing things off a dead cop's body right in front of other cops?

Probably not, and if you did do it you would probably get shot or at least thrown in jail for it.

I think there's nothing wrong with the way things are, I do think in those situations that people should rp looting or scavenging off bodies a bit more realistically.

I saw some people doing these things, and I'm glad they were killed for it.

[Gilvar]

Loot should maintain the same cost it would if the the things existed in the world.

There is no logical reason why mantis would use devalued or otherwise poor quality weapons. The goal should not be an ooc one. And currently that is "Lets stop characters looting by devaluing equipment."

Instead think of an IC goal and keep things the same. Have soldiers arrest/kill those looting in the heat of battle (I think this was done).

Riots are a great source of loot. Panick, general chaos are great covers for thievery and profit and should remain so.


A hindsight solution would've been more mantis specific gear. Breastplates with like six-arm holes, more mantis fighting sticks, etc. Things no shopkeeper would logical be interested in, and then it could be flagged accordingly to devalue it.

But devaluing things with a realistic value is not sensical.

As in everything, realism needs to be balanced against gameplay. Of course, the ideal is to achieve both, and any ideas in that regard (such as having more mantis-specific gear) are helpful.

My concern is not with looting per se, but with the effect of a mass influx of free equipment on the economy. I bet if the imms were to look at the bank accounts of pcs before and after the HRPT, they would see a significant difference. I believe it is contrary to the spirit of the game, and encourages people to twink instead of enjoying the roleplaying experience for its own sake. The Zalanthan economy suffers as a result.

Should characters be compensated for risking their lives in the defense of their city? Of course. My character was paid extremely well by the templarate for his part. There was no need for the mounds of loot lying in the street on top of that.

As to what happened yesterday, in my experience people were told not to loot pcs but they were indiscriminately grabbing everything they could hold off the monsters and npcs. That too is unrealistic.

I'm just asking people to step back and look at the big picture.

[da mitey warrior]

Supply and demand.

After a big battle the price paid for second-hand armor should plumet.  After all, there are now THOUSANDS of used breastplates on the market.  Shopkeepers for a few IC weeks should pay alot less for loot then they do normally.

[crymerci]

Frankly I think that players need to govern their own behavior better. I agree that the suggestions put forth by Xerin would help, but it's really up to the players to behave logically.

Yes, looting is going to be common during and after these events.  However, that does not mean you should be looting in front of authority figures, or even in front of witnesses, especially if you are within a city.  Throwing out an emote or two regarding how exactly you are stripping every last thing off a corpse is nice too.  In fact, if you emote it right, you could probably get away with looting in front of a templar.  For example:

say (dropping down on one knee beside ~corpse)  Joe!  Joe?  Talk to me, Joe.
say (the fall of her cloak obscuring the movements of her hands as she leans over ~corpse) Joe?  Oh Krath, no!  Not my darling Joe!
get ring corpse
get ring corpse
get coins corpse

Trust me, I learned this one the hard way, when one of my characters was killed by an authority figure for not being realistic about looting.  It sucked big time.  I still miss that character.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

You may be suprised to know that looting is a common occurance here in the real world. Some folks will be swayed by threats, and others will not. It has been this way for many years...even centuries.

In a barren, foresaken place like Zalanthas, you may be assured that such activities would be in order as well, and maybe to an even more esculated extent.

Let it happen. It only happens every six months to a year.

[Vanishing Codpiece]

This might not be a bad place to mention some of the horrible RP I saw from the sneaky types. After a huge battle, men and women were gathered around a corpse mourning the loss of one of their people, and his items started to dissapear! Whoops, no pants, whoops, no pack. Next thing we know, he's buck nekked! This happened to be a very large, heavy person too -- as in good luck moving him enough to get nearly anything off without someone noticing. I don't care if you're fucking invisible, I'm going to see his pants sliding off if I'm kneeling beside him mourning! I saw the militia nab one of the cheesers, but others were about. It was one of the worst examples of the "code allows it, so I'ma do it", when from a roleplaying perspective it would have never been remotely possible. Players like that should have their karma set to toilet brush. :evil:

Abuse like that aside, I'd have little concern over the spoils of war (or riots as the case may be).

[Anonymous]

Loot RP gets on my nerves, I'll admit it.

During one RPT I watched a team of 3 PCs, in the aftermath of a world-changing battle that featured all sorts of freakishness, going around doing a 'get all corpse' ad nauseum, then rushing to the shops to sell and rushing back as fast as can be.

Sometimes I guess people are just too cool to RP their PCs being even moderately affected by stuff that is supposed to be scary.

I have a strong feeling that's why there was a message during the RPT yesterday to the effect of "NO, seriously, this REALLY FUCKING HURTS, stop doing stuff and pay attention."

[Bogre]

You forget how immense a citystates economy is. The economy can handle a huge influx of chitin, because hundreds of chitin armor pieces were destroyed during the siege. (VNPC since no real armor breaks.) And the same for the rest of the deal. Someone who is a scavenger that manages to pluck off all those diamonds from that poor noble who managed not to pick a safe spot to watch those soldiers defend the city from won't make a difference, its like someone making a wild investment and profitting a bunch on it.

[briktal]

Doing lots of things with bad rp aren't good.  But the corpses and loot in general aren't too bad a problem.  One reason is that the corpse might be you.  Unless you go all ubertwink and wait until the danger is gone to log in just to go and scoop up the loot, you can't count on being alive.  It's not something you can just count on.  Especially if you could get killed for it.

Some of you are getting caught up in the idea of realism and completely missing the point of the impact on the player economy.

Even though RPTs are infrequent, they so blatantly flood the game with free equipment that it goes contrary to the harsh world Zalanthas is supposed to be. Who cares about how much water costs when you can fund your character's water needs for years just based on a single RPT?

[jhunter]

Even though RPTs are infrequent, they so blatantly flood the game with free equipment that it goes contrary to the harsh world Zalanthas is supposed to be.

Many deaths caused this, how is that -not- harsh?

From what I've seen, most of the stuff is nearly worthless crap anyway...if your making that much from it...are you playing realistically?

The risk of death is compensated by the very generous payment received through the templarate. -That- is balanced.

What is -not- balanced is the flood of free equipment that people are cashing in on. I personally only picked up one item, but there were literally hundreds of shields, swords, knives, armor, and other equipment scattered about for the taking. And people gathered up those items en masse, to keep or trade for sid. So much for a harsh desert world.

[jhunter]

From what I saw most of these things were gathered up and burned.

*shrugs*

[Agent_137]

i think the real question is are they cashing in on all that?

If they are just using it, big deal. the mantis was using it.

Don't shop keepers refuse to buy equipment after a certain point?

hell, I went to grab a sword belt days after the battle but my buddy was like, "Hey, leave that, it's militia, they'll toss you in jail if they catch you with it."

and then I was like, "Oh."

I think this topic is in dire need of some facts. Like, take a look at the bank accounts. Check the flow of sid. look through the numbers and really SEE if it's disrupted or not.

[Anonymous]

What was with that HRPT anyways?  I don't mean the stuff in the sky or whatever, but the events in both cities.  Was that just to slaughter some players?  Did anyone have any IC inkling that so much bloodshed would happen?  Was there any hint of the things that would happen in the game?  Seems like a huge slaughter to me.

[Agent_137]

battles are huge slaughters.

[Miee (not logged in)]

So basically, I think what Xerin's trying to suggest is a balance between the realism, and the sudden influx of sid into people's pockets.

1) Some people were taking crymerci's example to an extreme and looting unrealisitcally.
2) Now they have a bunch of sid.
3) Making money after a disaster from looting makes sense.
4) Now some of these folks are sitting pretty, thusly taking a certain level of harshness away from the world.

The city-states enforcing bans on the looting is a good thing.  This makes sense.  It won't stop people from looting (it didn't), and it can add a bit of danger to the act itself.
I like the six arm-holed mantis breastplates too.  Now that's no good to the two armed, two legged, one headed players. (+/-2)  The ability to maybe break down some of those for raw materials would be nice, but potentially unfeasible.

I'd really like it if the player-base policed itself, and played along with things the player knew was bad/untrue/etc., but from the GDB posts sometimes you bastards destroy that hope in me. :wink:

However, thieves, brigands, raiders, bad folk!  Loot and rob those who have made all that money.  Poor 'rinth rats, take your due.  Elves, take what's your's!

Looters!  Follow crymerci's example -reasonably-.  Snatch the tiny stuff, not the pants!  (If you're possessed of a smart PC, dumb PCs let yourself fuck up sometimes!)

Shopkeepers!  Stop buying some of the stuff after a panic or start paying less.  Supply and demand!

Imms!  Gimme a steel double bladed sword with rubies and diamonds in the handle of KILL ALL.

[Trenidor]

Arm is very different that our world...In our world, most people wouldn't go around looting off dead people because it would be thought of as a disgrace. In Zalanthas though, it is quite the opposite. Life is too hard to pass up a few dead bodies loaded with things that could be turned into sid.


If you think of it as in Earthen cars: After major accidents, the junkyards and other groups will buy the broken cars for parts. They then turn these into semi-new cars that are refurbished. It's kinda a scam when some people do it the way they do it, and other times it's an alright buisness.

Just like in armageddon, this is an alright buisness, and in some cases it's not alright. Looting is the norm for people that need money. Merchants can be roaming the streets for dead bodies to scavenge off of so that they can re-sell the things they find.

I think this is perfectly fine for anyone that is thrust into the situation that the people of zalanthas are put in.

Just to add to the case of all those (including me) That like to loot off dead bodies, I'll include a little knoledge I know:

The greeks, romans, anglos, persians, and many other important militarywise civilizations would raid cities, then their soldiers could take anything they wanted from the city. In some cases, commanding officers wanted it to mock their enemy. In other cases, the commanding officer didn't want it to happen and told their troops not to take part in the looting. (some of them did anyway behind their commanders' backs) The only way for an army to survive without actuall funding from a head person is to loot from the land. Seeing as how most commoners are not part of a Noble house that can give them funding, the only way for them to survive is to take it from the land.

I really hate that people bring this up. I hated it in game. And I hate it even more now that someone's taken it into public trying to get rid of it.
The only reasons I could see anyone not looting is:
A. They are in a house and therefore would not need more money
B. They want to keep up a certain social status (IG not OOC) and would be able to look down on those that actually did it.
C. Something to do with their past that causes them psycological trama whenever they do it.

The current code already prevents people enough from re-selling lootings.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NONO NO NO NO NO

[Trenidor]

Oh, and I wanted to add that: IRL there are some people that follow certain groups around so they can gather their garbage:

Name: Packrats
Motto: "One man's trash is another man's treasure."


The only trouble with this occupation is that unless you have close connections, HRPTs only last every few months...You aren't going to live off lootings for that long...

Trenidor, please go back and read what is being suggested here. The problem is not that Zalanthans wouldn't loot. It is that there is so much loot to be had. It breaks the economy to see such a dramatic influx in such a short period of time.

[jstorrie]

There wasn't actually that much to be looted, though, Xerin.  If my character had been actively looting the entire time (he was in a position to do so) and had managed to escape the militia and angry mobs that were kiling looters (he was in a position to see that happen a couple of times, too) he would have made maybe 500 sid, tops.  That's not water for a year.

Then why have several people talked about their bank accounts increasing so much since yesterday? I know that in Tuluk the streets were absolutely flooded with loot. The one item I picked up was valued by Salarr at almost 70 sid.

And again, I didn't see anybody being busted for looting skeletons and zombies. It was only the pcs and mantis (which had already been given by the templarate to a house) that were supposedly off limits.

[Anonymous]

I think that saying looting reduces the harshness of the game or has an adverse affect on the economy is taking it a bit far.  Most looters are going to be dead in 3 weeks anyways, so what's the big deal?  They'll leave a big bank account behind.

I'd just wish for more from looters than 'get all corpse;e;e;e;e;e;e;s;offer sword;barter;offer pants;barter;offer shirt;barter;open pack;get coins pack;i;put 1273 coins pack;close pack;w;w;w;w;w;w;w;n;get all 2.corpse;e;e;e;e;e;e;e;e;s;offer shoes;barter;offer boots;barter;offer brazier;barter;open pack;get coins pack;i;e;e;e;e;e;e;deposit 1341;save

[Trenidor]

Trenidor, please go back and read what is being suggested here. The problem is not that Zalanthans wouldn't loot. It is that there is so much loot to be had. It breaks the economy to see such a dramatic influx in such a short period of time.

Yes, IRL, it ruins the ecomomy because shops don't have people they can sell things to when they can just get it off the streets.

If you didn't realize...merchants can go out there and gather all the valuable stuff just as easily as any of the poor people. They can then resell it.

-AND-

Just because people have lots of money doesn't mean that the whole economy is ruined. That's actually an improvement to the economy because then there is more to be sold and more money around to buy stuff with.

[Trenidor]

Death of people in their own town isn't a loss of economy, it's just a recirculatoin of all that money that started there.

The reason economies suffer durring times of war is because the money put into soldiers dissapears when planes explode, or it'll enter some other contries economy.

The point is that it is not the economy Zalanthas is supposed to have:

The world of Armageddon is known as Zalanthas. It is a harsh planet where only the fittest survive, and competition over extremely scarce resources causes constant strife, struggle, and bloodshed.

What I saw last night was the opposite of "extremely scarce resources".

[Trenidor]

Things are different in times of war...

There are no rules to what can happen and there is nothing that can be done about it.

By the end of this week I'll bet that most of the money out there will have been spent and gone.

Spent on what? The goods bought with the money wouldn't have been possible in the first place without the original influx. The money doesn't just disappear from the economy...it makes characters better equipped, less thirsty, and so on than would otherwise be the case. In short, it is inconsistent with Zalanthas being a harsh desert world.

That is why I think the money that flows through an RPT event should be moderated. There have been some good suggestions in that regard. Making more mantis-specific equipment, making it illegal to loot -any- kind of corpse in the city, imms clearing up the piles of bodies after a period of time, etc. all can help keep the game fun, challenging, and what it was intended to be.

I'm not trying to turn this into a huge issue by any means, just raising it in the awareness of the imms for future RPTs

[ashjpd]

Me, having played many merchants and having experiences with them. What I would do, if I were the shopkeepers, I would think.. hmm, war.. hmm.. mantis.. hmm.. lots of looters.. hmm.. I could buy those for less, and make 50 times as much selling it.

After all, there is gonna be a lot of people with a lot of stuff. So they are gonna have to sell that stuff for cheaper at the start anyways, cause everyone is gonna have some. But I would stock up on more now, so I can sell it later when it isnt as common.

Thats what I would do if I were one of them merchants anyways.

[Trenidor]

Apparently you are extreemly ignorant about economy and war.

I've stated it already, but here goes again:

Just because the docs say that arm is a harsh world, doesn't mean anything if war occurs. War changes everything.

Just beacuse people are rich doesn't mean they didn't pay a price for it. Several people died while trying to loot, others were cost their dignity for taking the stuff. And still others lost lost of other stuff. It wasn't like they had an easy time taking crap off people. It was still harsh to carry all that junk around in the burning hot sun while mantis were clawing ferociously at your back.

[Trenidor]

Fuck it! just cuz you don't understand doesn't mean everyone else doesn't either. :x

The way things were conducted were perfect in my overall opinion. Good Job Staff and thanks to everyone that was there to RP.  :wink:

[Agent_137]

After all, there is gonna be a lot of people with a lot of stuff.

I think this is the problem that the original poster is trying to address.

Good ideas:
More badguy specific stuff that's worthless to players.
Making looting of specifics punishable by death, if you get caught. (already in place to some effect)
Lowering the max amount that shopkeepers will buy of the stuff.
Destroying the karma of twink-looters.

Bad ideas:
making illegal to loot any corpse. (Silly silly. Looting is a realistic part of battle, and fun!)
Making bodies and equipment dissapear. (where'd it go?! Where's the aftermath? two days later and where's the evidence of a battle?!)

[marko]

That is why I think the money that flows through an RPT event should be moderated. There have been some good suggestions in that regard. Making more mantis-specific equipment, making it illegal to loot -any- kind of corpse in the city, imms clearing up the piles of bodies after a period of time, etc. all can help keep the game fun, challenging, and what it was intended to be.

I'm not trying to turn this into a huge issue by any means, just raising it in the awareness of the imms for future RPTs

You are trying to turn this into a huge issue by constantly rejecting any thoughts other than your own.

You believe that, at all times, resources should be incredibly scarce.  That's fine.  The thing is, the amount of coin brought in by the looting will not be significant in the overall scheme of things.  

Am HRPT is a rare event.  It is not as if it will happen regularly.  If there is a significant influx of coin - good.  It'll drive some more plots, make some people rich, allow some folk who wouldn't otherwise be able to rent an apartment or whatever (hire assassins perhaps)... it'll vanish within two RL months.  Let them live it up - they survived and were brazen enough to loot.

I go back to the original logic of your post.  It seems to me that you are saying that any time there is a large number of deaths - then their gear should be removed from the game before it 'affects the economy.'  I'd like to know where you draw the line.  Is it 10 fully outfitted corpses (Byn falling off the shield wall)?  Is it 100 badly outfitted corpses?  Where is your limit.  How do you determine it?  Is it the total net worth of the gear?  Does it have to be spread out amongst 125 players?  Does it have to be accessable to a large number of players?

I'd be curious to see how much coin was brought in by looters after the event.  If it averages anything under 1000 'sid per looter, then I don't think there is a problem.  1000 'sid goes fast.  Very fast.  I've known nobles who send over ten thousand coin into the game on a weekly basis - all it did was create plots, threads, weaves, and events.  

Why did I pick that 1000 'sid mark?  Because new characters, on average, bring that much in each time they are created.  And yet when there is an influx of new characters the amount of coin entering the player economy is not significant - the majority ends up in NPC merchants.

If the players sit on their looted coin - it'll vanish when they die.  If they spend it in shops then it vanishes to NPC merchants and their gear has potential to vanish when they die.  If they spend it on PC merchants - great!  Now the PC merchants horde it in their bank account and when they die it will vanish.  If they use it to hire someone or use it to pay another PC in some manner - awesome because now it's being used to spark new interactions and plots.

I'd then have to say that the coin generated by the survivors is useful to the game.  I'll also say that within two RL months it will be bled out of the player economy and back into the virtual economy.

In your case you say your character was paid by the templarate.  Good for you!  Not all characters were.  I imagine very few characters were actually paid in the HRPT.  I know all the characters that mine interacted with weren't paid.  Why do I mention this?  Because those characters that survived (be it through valor, cowardice, trickery, or downright luck) should be rewarded in some manner.  And they were.  There was plenty of loot to go around apparently.  

Now to focus on the logic of your suggestion.  If dropped items in such an event were 'flagged' as unsellable - then you have a situation where it is possible that in one RL year someone goes to a shop and tries to sell a sword that was dropped.  The shopkeeper then tells them "I refuse to buy that!" and turns around to promptly buy the exact same item.  How can you begin to explain that?  That's so incredibly jarring at an OOC level.  

There is no need to duplicate items (to make a version that isn't sellable or sells for less) nor is there a need to immediately reboot after an HRPT.  I believe what happened in the HRPT and the events after the HRPT were handled and managed extremely well.  I really don't think there is a need to alter how it happened afterwards.  Was their 'unrealistic' looting?  Probably.  And yet, masses of of people crawling over the fallen and stealing their stuff is pretty realistic in my opinion.  The vultures descend upon any battlefield and feed.

Perhaps some more NPCs (VNPCs as well) looting and ravaging the corpses would have been cool.  And it woulda removed the gear that Xerin seems to think was too luxurious.  Although in the end, I don't think it's really it really warrants that.  The coin made may have created a bubble of wealth but I'm actually quite skeptical of even that.  Perhaps a minority made some 'good coin' but I don't think the majority was suddenly enriched by leaps and bounds.  I could be wrong and even if I am, I think the influx will be good for while it lasts (two months max).

I say LOOOOOT! and LOOT some more.

Most of the people are poor and probably desperate. They'd be looting unless there was, which there was, reasons not to be.  Some wouldn't because they were afraid of getting caught and most PCs belong to houses or organizations, so looting the fallen defenders of the city would probably not be smiled upon. But the average commoner or someone dressed like a commoner..would probably loot en mass when they could get away with it and not be singled out.Mobs are good.  Someone said the Nenyuk might report you for having a bunch of sids? What do nenyuk care who is storing the sids, unless they get additional sids for tattling. I mean the Nenyuk keeps all the dead ppl's sids anyway.

Some looting NPC's and VNPC's would be nice.

[Angela Christine]

Spent on what? The goods bought with the money wouldn't have been possible in the first place without the original influx. The money doesn't just disappear from the economy...it makes characters better equipped, less thirsty, and so on than would otherwise be the case. In short, it is inconsistent with Zalanthas being a harsh desert world.

So move to Red Storm.  The one major RPT involving RS had the entire village engulfed in a silt wave.  I didn't play back then, but I doubt there was much loot to be had.    I'm not just being snide here, some people find that Red Storm has more of the harsh/brutal desert world feeling than the other towns.  There are no foofy nobles, and so no foofy noble house guards.  There are rarely more than 2 or 3 organizations actively hiring, so you don't get swamped be recruiters  the moment you show up in a tavern wearing your newbie suit.  You can go indepenant, but resources are actually scarce, shops sell high and buy low, the beasties outside the city are very dangerous, water is frighteningly expensive, and the residents are a motly crew of misfits and dirty bastards.  It is great.


As for RPT windfalls, I think you are over-estimating the real effect.  Yes, there are a couple weeks of relative prosperity for lucky looters, but so what?  Most of the money will either be pissed away or put in the bank.  When the looter dies next week, the money in the bank will DISAPPEAR from the economy.  Nenyuk doesn't share.  The fancy gear he bought may or may not disappear.  Some beasties will  eat entire corpses, including everything they corpse is "wearing".  If you see two good weapons lying on the ground near a giant animal, there is a good chance that the PC died (dropping the things in his hands) and then the animal ate him.  Yum.  If he doesn't get eatten, the equipment will disapear in the next reboot unless another PC finds the corpse.  If another PC does loot the corpse, he will be able to sell the equipment for 1/6 or maybe 1/4 what the other guy paid for it.  Each time money is converted into equipment and then back into sids, you lose about 75% of the value.  

The money really does disappear, and faster than you might expect.



The idea of non-standard races having non-standard equipment is a good one.  Gith are stinky bastards, so while their armor isn't complete trash (I've had poor characters wear gith armor) it sells for less than similar items that are not stinky.  Mantis are an odd shape, even their hands are different than those of humanoids, so human stores might devalue their gear because it will have to be modified to be useful to their humanoid customers.  Even halfling gear should count as non-standard, because among other humanoids only small children could wear it and small children don't need armor (you can have it tailored to your size, but having an item tailored to a much larger size costs a fortune, as any half-giant can tell you).  Human and standard demi-human races don't want these things, because their customers don't want them, so their only value is as "raw" material to be modified, torn apart and made into new items.


AC

Thanks all for the feedback and observations. I think we've come up with some good ideas for the imms to consider for future RPTs.

Angela, I think you're right that economic inflation is not as big a problem in a game like Armageddon as in most other online RPGs. It does have an impact though, and I would like to see some of the ideas discussed here implemented, such as having more gear that is unusable or otherwise relatively worthless to most pcs.

[Boggis]

Loot RP gets on my nerves, I'll admit it.

During one RPT I watched a team of 3 PCs, in the aftermath of a world-changing battle that featured all sorts of freakishness, going around doing a 'get all corpse' ad nauseum, then rushing to the shops to sell and rushing back as fast as can be.

While I don't mind loot RP if its done realisitically I personally I think "get all corpse" should be a command that is disabled permanantly. Make them type out every piece of gear that they want to take from the body so they're slowed down at least a little. Seeing somebody stoop over a corpse and whipping off everything in a nanosecond looks pretty jarring.

[Gesht]

Xerin,

- - As I understand it, your concern is that the sudden appearence of large amounts of goods should have a significant impact on the economy, in keeping with the shortage-of-goods aspect of the game. It actually has a subtle impact on the economy, and I will explain why.

- - During a war in Zalanthas, you typically have wealthy people shifting resources into fighting.  When people die, these resources are then looted.  Where do they go?  Assuming I looted 2,000 sid worth of armor and weapons, I will make 700 'sid from Salarr.  This equipment originally came from Salarr.  In a sense, they rented it to its owner.  The resource has returned from whence it came.  While I have added resources to the economy, the owner of the item is no longer there to produce new resources in the form of activity (gathering resources, making it possible for others to produce resources).

- - As for the money, it will go right back into the same economy it came from.  Remember, economic activity is human activity (well, or metahuman activity in some cases).  If there are no people, money is little more than shiny disks of volcanic glass.  I spend some of my money, part of which goes to the city through tax, another part is stolen, another part eventually makes its way into the hands of the employers of the person I looted.

- - All-in-all, the economy has a sudden increase in physical resources paired with a simultaneous decrease in metahuman and monitary resources.  Things would be a little funky for a short time, but they quickly even out. Also, please remember that in the 11 or 12 years Arm has been around, there have only been 3 HRPTs.  Normal RPTs tend to have low payoffs.

[Twilight]

HRPTs are special.  They represent times and events that make and break individuals.  Soldiers are promoted based on bravery.  Many others die.  Fortunes are made.  Fortunes are lost.  Items of historical significance pop up, and your character might actually get their hands on them.  Risk vs reward.

Gesht, there are really two economies in the game: the NPC economy and the player economy. While the two do interact, I'm more concerned with the latter. The NPC economy isn't "real" in the sense that it has infinite supply, although it does moderate demand to some extent by the number of items an NPC is willing to buy.

My real concern is with the player economy. When players suddenly have access to a huge influx of free resources, a few things happen:

1. The need to struggle for survival is lowered, and Zalanthas thus becomes less of a "harsh desert world".

2. The roleplaying value of the HRPT experience is relatively lessened and can become dominated by the rush for "free loot".

3. Players are more likely to twink out rather than behave in a manner consistent with their characters and the environment.

4. The inflationary effect has negative repercussions for PC merchants, since there is now less demand for any goods that have flooded the market.

You do have a good point about the infrequency of HRPTs. Instead of keeping the occurrence of HRPTs low, I would rather see more HRPTs with less loot

[sarahjc]

Xerin,

I think what you don't see is the fact that the spoils of war are few and far between. HRPT's don't happen all the time and these RPT's that we have been having once a week it seems are uncommon. Not that I don't love them, but normally an HRPT comes around 1-2 times a year.  

Now when I play a poor PC, I burn though sid. Somehow.. I never seem to have enough cash. Which is how  it should be in a harsh desert climate. Most people are lucky to have the clothing on their backs. Then comes an HRPT and what happens.. Free stuff everywhere, but what does that mean?

Honestly if you really want to see the effects of an HRPT, I would follow the NPC wealth as well as PC wealth. I guarantee, it is the NPC's not the PC's that are making out on the deal, and leveling if not crushing the PC economy.

I would bet my bottom dollar that the Salarr NPC merchant made out like a bandit before the fighting.. I know, I went in the store. I don't think I've ever seen him so empty. Only the crappy equipment was left.
Then after all the fighting.. He was loaded to the gills. Now the thing to remember is that he did not purchase that stuff back at the same price he sold it. In fact be probably did very well on that deal. And once he feels his shelves are stocked, he turns you away. So yes people are getting sid after the fighting, but most probably paid out that much if not more.

Now also what are they going to spend the new sid on? Do you think the everyday commoner is going to hord that 500 sid in the bank.. Honestly, If you are the type to loot bodies.. Chances are there is something you want to buy with those funds.

That may be a new kank, a breast plate you have had your eye on, a new helmet, maybe you have a spice addiction.. Whores.. There are lots of things to spend on, and most of that sid goes right back to the NPC's and you are soon starving again.

Then there is the influx of new PC's, and they all have a thousand sid. Well what do you think they are going to spend that on.. NPC's. Again, armor or silks, kanks, water, weapons. Some may even junk the remains of the start up sid if it's not IC for their PC to have that much sid. Again..But who is profiting from the Battle? The NPC merchants.

I think the system is fine the way it is.. I mean will there be a few smart and slightly more weathly PC's after an HRPT, sure.. will the capital last.. doubtful.

Anyway that is just my take on it..

[marko]

My real concern is with the player economy. When players suddenly have access to a huge influx of free resources, a few things happen:

And your concerns have been addressed multiple times.  No one other than you seems to think that your points are valid.

Since you have these concerns I suggest something very simple and I think it will work.  If you are in a position where you can loot a sigifnicant amount - don't.  Keep up your struggle and keep it harsh for you.  

At the same time don't begrudge those that are opportunistic and leap at the chance of a little enriching action.  Now, for fun, here come questions for each of your points (my apologies to any who are tired of this thread).

1. The need to struggle for survival is lowered, and Zalanthas thus becomes less of a "harsh desert world".

I have to ask you that when a PC starts and they have their starting 'sid - does this affect the struggle for survive?  Would you prefer to see PCs start with 0 - 100 'sid so they can begin the struggle from hour 0?

2. The roleplaying value of the HRPT experience is relatively lessened and can become dominated by the rush for "free loot".

Honestly this is exactly what one should expect in where there is a need to struggle for survival.  If you don't think the 'rush' is appropriate you do not feel that the there should be a struggle that warrants the rush.  Please explain how you can desire that there be a constant struggle for survival and when the opportunity for loot presents itself you feel that people shouldn't loot.

3. Players are more likely to twink out rather than behave in a manner consistent with their characters and the environment.

Once again, this is your own opinion.  It is my opinion that people would be coming out of the woodwork after a fight and pouncing on the dead.  Yes, perhaps some PCs did it stupidly (like stealing from a body that people were watching) but get all corpse seems reasonable to me to someone desperate enough to try it.  I would prefer to see an emote about stripping the body - but that's a personal view.

4. The inflationary effect has negative repercussions for PC merchants, since there is now less demand for any goods that have flooded the market.

That doesn't make sense either.  People will immediately go to PC merchants to buy new things because they have coin.  Therefore, this is the exact opposite of the point you are making.  

You do have a good point about the infrequency of HRPTs. Instead of keeping the occurrence of HRPTs low, I would rather see more HRPTs with less loot

I'd rather see HRPTs remain as rare as they are since they are world changing events.  It would get rather boring and 'so what' if HRPTs happened every month.  Keep HRPTs to once every couple of years or, at most, once a year.

Increase the number of RPTs and just random plots.  Smaller and more numerous is better than huge world changing events.

[Realedazed]

All I have to say is, if people want or need something bad enough all they need is time and opportunity.

Let me use a real life example:  There was a show that came on a few years ago.  They placed a nice car on a street. The doors were unlocked and the key was left in the ignition.  They also filled the car with lots of good loot, like a playstation, a TV, etc. A camera was hidden across the street and everything was taped. Piece by piece, items were stolen. Needless to say, by the end of the day everything was gone, including the car. Now, thats in real life.

[Bogre]

I'm not trying to turn this into a huge issue by any means, just raising it in the awareness of the imms for future RPTs

Its not the Imms fault. Its the players fault. ICly, an army is going to be equipped. That means gear. And if the army is destroyed, that means a lot of trash gear. But take a mantis, for example. It has a neat, exotic breastplate, a trash club and a trash dagger. Now, the breastplate might be neat for a souvenir if you wanna tell your grandchilds how you helped defend the city, but the dagger and club? Naw. And even still, the thing has come from a MANTIS!!!! An abomination, I wouldn't really wanna touch anything that came from it, it might be diseased etc etc

The immense amount of loot is fine, it is the player's handling of it that sucks. A lot of the equipment should be burned or something, because it could have Icly been destroyed, etc.

[Black Isis]

I will point out that at least in this case, there's no way in hell that a breastplate made to fit a 7 foot tall insect is going to fit on ANY kind of humanoid creature.  So if people are running around in them, that seems like it should be changed.  Halfgiants are far too bulky for something like that, and even elves, which might be the right size, height, have a totally different body shape and move in totally different ways.  You wouldn't expect to use the same barding for a horse and a war lizard would you?

[Angela Christine]

I wouldn't really wanna touch anything that came from it, it might be diseased etc etc

There is an idea.  Any time you interact with a corpse, except through emotes, you have a 2% chance of getting a disease.

>get corpse
>get <item> corpse
>get all corpse (this might have 10%)
>junk corpse
>drop corpse
>eat corpse
>skin corpse (just 1%, since the corpse should be fresh)
>beep corpse

It wouldn't have to be a fatal disease, just bad enough to make life unpleasant for a few days.  At it's worst the disease might cut your stamina in half, lower your strength to poor or double your thirst rate, all the while sending out embaressing echos about how you are sweating, vomiting, convulsing, coughing, and generally making a spectacle of yourself.  People who are actually desperate would still loot corpses, and most people would risk it to get that silver ring or steel codpiece, but fewer comfortably off characters would risk looting with impunity.  A noble's guard doesn't want an embarassing rash or deep wracking cough making him look bad.

Diseases are cool.


AC

[Agent_137]

Diseases are cool.

I LOVE that idea! I'm sure it's a bitch to code though.

What code does dikumud use? If possible, use layman's terms. I've never coded anything but a spot of html here and there.

[Gilvar]

Diku-mud is a base written in C. Its IS code, from which the major derivitives (merc, circle, Rom) are built off of.

[Gesht]

Xerin,

- - I feel, based on what you're saying, that you have overlooked something.  I don't believe you're ignoring people, so much as there is a failure to communicate.  I'm going to try to structure what I have been trying to get across a little more rigidly.  First, let me repeat your points...

1. The need to struggle for survival is lowered, and Zalanthas thus becomes less of a "harsh desert world".

2. The roleplaying value of the HRPT experience is relatively lessened and can become dominated by the rush for "free loot".

3. Players are more likely to twink out rather than behave in a manner consistent with their characters and the environment.

4. The inflationary effect has negative repercussions for PC merchants, since there is now less demand for any goods that have flooded the market.

- - Zalanthas is a harsh, desert world, in which supplies are in short supply.  As I said, when wars of this nature happen, the people with a wealth of resources channel it all into one place.  People die, making these resources available.  Now, many people who have been suffering a shortage of resources see a sprawl of resource-wielding corpses.

- - To be honest, I think there should be almost immediate looting, up until the fear of being cut down sets in.  Impoverished, starving people see wealth.  Why shouldn't necessity and/or greed drive them to loot?  As for people fighting, if you're fighting someone, you can't very well turn around and attack me for looting without leaving your back open to attack.

- - Yes, there was some twinking, but those same people would be twinking at ANY opportunity.  We don't punish the many for the crimes of the few, we just smote the few very, very hard.

- - Lastly, the economy.  You're poor.  You now have money.  Where does it go?  Right back where it came from.  Some of the money goes back into the city, which now needs to spend that money training a replacement for your loot's former owner.  The same goes for the clans.  Indirectly, money winds up back where it came from, where it is now needed once more.

- - Yes, now you're better off.  However, you're not any better off than if you murdered someone and sold their gear.  Therefor, I don't see HRPT loot as a problem.

Gesht, I hear what you're saying. The main point I am making, which you have not addressed, is that the influx is coming from OUTSIDE the player economy. If it were the case of other pcs dying and being looted, I would be all for it. Then it would be a simple matter of wealth changing hands.

But that is not what is happening. The problem is that hundreds of NPCs and monsters are dying, thus introducing wealth to the game that otherwise would not have been available.

[jhunter]

And as someone has already pointed out to you Xerin, if you take the time to read it....that influx goes back out into the npc and vnpc community eventually.

If you go back and read, I already acknowledged Angela's point in that regard. However, if you think that is accomplished by the character buying goods from NPCs, you're completely missing the point. That is nothing but an exchange of goods, and the flooding stays in the PC economy. The only thing that actually addresses the problem is permanent death and the loss of possessions. But until that happens, the economy stays flooded and the damage is done.

[Gesht]

- - Ah, I didn't explicitly address that, but I alluded to it earlier.  Much of this sudden influx of stuff comes into the economy from the virtual economy.  Most of it goes back into the virtual economy.  The virtual economy is where the water you drink comes from, the uncraftable goods in the stores, etc.  While these things are coming into existence, they're also going right back out of existence.  All you have is a momentary increase in money/goods which goes back to the virtual world from whence it came.

- - There's not a lot of difference between this and if your rich noble character dies in the desert, causing goods from the real economy wink out of existence.  Remember, players are merely fleshed out versions of the entire virtual world.  A little more of the wealth comes to the forefront.  Then it returns to the virtual side of the game.

[jhunter]

Your looking for weapons of mass-destruction where there aren't any, :lol:  get over it. It's not as big of a deal as you believe to be.
I would think that if there was as much of a problem as you seem to think, that you would have alot more support in this.

Gesht, see my post immediately preceding yours. Simply exchanging resources with the virtual economy doesn't fix the problem. The inflation stays in the pc economy, whether the assets are liquid or tangible.

When you die in the desert, your wealth disappears. That is a real fix, but unfortunately until that happens the inflation stays on the pc side.

[Delirium]

Those PCs will eventually die, or spend the 'sid, or heck, spend it on other PCs.. or maybe even hoard it. Ultimately though, I don't see how it truly matters all that much. It's a brief influx of cash that is hardly a dependable or steady amount, and will flush back out of the economy as it changes hands and/or the characters who did the looting bite the dust one by one.

HRPTs like this are a once-in-a-lifetime thing for the vast majority of PCs, as it is.. so I don't see it as a big problem. I'm more worried, as I stated before, about PCs treating their looting realistically than I am about the looting itself.

Simply walking into a room and doing 'get all corpse' bugs the kajeebus out of me. Frankly, I wouldn't mind seeing the 'get all' command disabled for corpses, since there's no way you could strip one that fast.

[Gesht]

- - Why does it matter where these goods came from?  This wealth always existed in the economy.  It's just that players suddenly have a chance to steal some of it.  You are expected to treat NPCs and VNPCs in the same manner you would treat PCs.  Why should it matter what you are looting?  NPCs kill and loot all the time, and none of their loot is saved.  Stuff vanishes out of the player economy all the time.  Just because these things did not exist in a form available to you doesn't mean you should see it as a massive flux.

The wealth didn't always exist in the economy. That's the whole point. It was manually created for the HRPT. It's not like Armageddon uses a closed economic model, where only so many zombie swords can exist in the game at one time. The fact is that without the HRPT, none of that equipment would have been accessible in the game. It is a mass introduction of resources into the system.

[amoeba]

Angela Christine wrote:

Diseases are cool.

Agent_137 wrote:

I LOVE that idea! I'm sure it's a bitch to code though

I've seen it done on another MUD.  The other one was LP based though.

They actually had quite a system of diseases.  Syphilis if you frequented prostitutes,  a chance of catching a cold if you were sneezed on, occasional epidemics of black plague. Oh and yes my favorite, lice.  Basicially there was a coder who was working on his phd in microbiology or some such and he played/coded while he was in the lab waiting on an experiment to run its course.  Most of this was done through simple emotes, but seeing "you feel a small bite on the
nape of your neck, and have a strong desire to scratch" got really irritating  after a point. specially since it would only lessen if you scratched and would only go away if you found a cure.  Some of the other diseases. were a bit more of a problem because you could  conciveably die from them.   My *personal* experience was that when it was novel it was cool, but after that you really avoided the sick people, because it was a friggin pain.

[Anonymous]

Gesht, see my post immediately preceding yours. Simply exchanging resources with the virtual economy doesn't fix the problem. The inflation stays in the pc economy, whether the assets are liquid or tangible.

First off, this isn't the behaviour I saw with the last HRPT or the one before that.  PCs die and leave their bank accounts behind.

Secondly, the amount of money from loot doesn't add up to anything that causes a major shift in the PC economy.

Thirdly, the Imms have made several changes over the last year or two to put the clamps down on the economy to prevent people from going wild.  Things like changing object prices, reducing NPC merchant on-hand sid amounts, increasing the amount of water a PC needs, water taxes, etc, etc.

Armageddon just doesn't have a real working economic model because the vast majority of transactions are between PC and NPC.  When a PC dies or gets rich the effect on the economy is nearly non-existant.

Lastly, with Armageddon's economy, such as it is, there is no way to turn obsidian into more obsidian except through crafting.  There are no shares to buy, no Allanaki bonds, no bank accounts with 6% interest.  Loaning out money is a lost cause due to the high volume of PC death.  And a crafter who can make sid off of their craft is going to end up with a decent obsidian flow regardless of HRPTs.

A thousand sid, which is about what I'd expect your average prolific looter to come by, does not equal financial freedom.

[Gesht]

The wealth didn't always exist in the economy.

- - It always existed.  It was just virtual.  Now it's real.  It will go back to being virtual.

- - This is no different from foraging for stones.  Your foraging causes a stone object to come into existence.  That stone will eventually vanish.  If you had never foraged, it would never have gone from being virtual to being real.

- - The same is true for the HRPT.  Soldiers and monsters which previously existed virtually became available for players to fight with, fight against, and/or loot.  They were always there, it's just now you could interact with them.  Please try to keep in mind that most of the game only exists virtually, but you are expected to RP it being there.

- - The Gaj, on average, has a couple hundred people in it. There are only six NPCs.  You are still expected to act as if there are more than six people there.  Streets are flooded with people.  There are no NPCs in the room.  You are still expected to have your character act as if the room has lots of people moving through it.

- - The same goes for the loot.  It was always there.  Now you can steal it.

From an economic (not roleplaying) perspective, it only exists if it is accessible. Foraging for stones is drawing on a readily accessible resource. The flood of equipment through the HRPT was NOT accessible otherwise. To say that it existed theoretically on zombies that could have been found and killed is meaningless, because no character would have been able to do that without the HRPT. Therefore, from an economic perspective, the wealth introduced through the HRPT did not exist. It's simple economics.

Anyway, I'm not trying to get into an academic debate. I've made my point, and whether you imms consider it worthy or not is your call

[Gesht]

- - From the economic perspective you described, those stones never existed until you told the code to make them exist.  Similarly, the HRPT NPCs did not exist until we told them to exist.  There is no difference.  However, Armageddon is a role playing game, not an economics simulator.  As such, what you are role playing matters, not whether or not virtual-to-interactive economics are comparable to economic theories applied to a real world.

Again...the point is that the player had the ability to "tell the code to make the stones exist". The stones were ACCESSIBLE.

The player did not have the ability to "tell the code to make the sword-bearing zombies exist". The swords on the zombies were NOT ACCESSIBLE.

By introducing the swords to the economy through the HRPT, you therefore caused an inflationary effect that would not have existed otherwise.

Of course Armageddon is a roleplaying game. If you're not concerned about the economy, why not just give every player a million sid at creation and be done with it? In reality, a viable player economy actually makes the roleplaying experience richer.

[Gilvar]

* HRPTs is one of the fluke things that allows for a windfall on the player. Same as stumbling across the body of the wealthy-merchant (etc.) This actually has many IC foundations as well. Like one of Tor's major past/virtual income sources is LOOT from campaigns. That is basically the same here. If Tor led an invasion of the Mantis Stronghold they'd probably expect some nice loot to pad their coffers.

* The one valid thing that has been brought up is inflation. Yes if suddenly there are 1000 mantis limbs in the city the value will plummet. But there are also a few wildcard things here. Will mantis-limbs always be rare? Yes probably, thus keeping the value up. Since supply is limited and will probably be demanded in the future, this may actual make the cost of loot go up. However things like simple bone breastplates probably wouldn't. And I think this is represented by the limit of 5 on a shopkeeper, they realize they won't sell anymore for now.

* Thirdly the world is magickal. There are a good many things you will not understand and will hopefully make your brain hurt. There could very well be a magicker who is quite capable of making matter from nothing and arming them on zombies. Or who has a coffer of stolen swords and weaponry from past large engagements like the conquering of Luir's or any of a number of virtual towns and things that may or may not exist.

* When you die in the desert your wealth does not disappear. It could possibly be covered, scavenged by virtual rangers, warriors, etc. It will recirculate, or not, its not a big issue.

* Lasly, please do not use your closed vision as a reason to justify your distorted logic. Just because YOU say the zombies and their swords did not exist somewhere and were not pulled from there to the HRPT does not make it so. The known world is not the entire universe, there could likely be a bone-sword factory in the Upper Eastside of Watertown which is 800 miles northwest of the Tablelands.

[Gesht]

- - Role playing games are supposed to simulate real worlds, not be exact replicas of them.  That is why we have poor people.  That is why said poor people tend to live in clusters.  If we had everything that existed virtually in the world as tangible (all of the time), Arm would be so large no server could run it.  Saying that everything should be in existence at all times instead of existing virtually is unreasonable. We couldn't do it even if we wanted to.

- - That is why you are expected to role play that what is there virtually is there tangibly. It is unrealistic to say that virtual goods are any less real than ones your character can have because it is always available, codewise.  Saying that the code should keep people from doing something entirely possible, simply because some additional objects have gone from virtual to tangible, is unreasonable.

I'm not going to get into a tit for tat with you guys. Thanks for listening.

[spawnloser]

Xerin, one point that you seem to miss completely is that from an RP standpoint, there is no difference between virtual vs NPC vs PC wealth.  The IMMs have told you this, accept it.

[Vettrock]

I just wanted to add one more thing.  Most of the wealth gererated by this HRPT came from PCs, not from selling the equiptment of the invading army.  This id due to the five item limits on the shops, and the fact that most of the equiptment carried by the invaders was the same.  I base this off of the following math:

Say there was 3 different weapons, 2 different shields, and 3 different kinds of armor.  Say they sold for an average of 50 sid each.  If you sold 5 of each of these items, you would make 2000 sid.  That is assuming one character sold it all.  spreading it out over 10 PCs, and your down to 200 sid each.  Assumming my esitmates are low, and we quadruple it, you have 400 sid spread out over 20 PCs.  I don't think this is reallt all that significant.  

The only way someone can make a significant amount from that eqiptment is they were very fast and the first one to geta lot of it to the shop, which means that the number of PCs effected is actually smaller, or if you are hording it and saving it for after the nexy reboot, which unless ypour a mul, half-giant, or own a house, isn't a real option.

Incidently, you can make a lot more money when you came across a dead corpse with  there newbie money than the above example, an that happens a lot more frequently.