The amount of IC information shared on the GDB.

[ShaLeah]

This subject has bothered me for some time and I wanted to see what people felt about this.

I feel that while the GDB has retained it's usefulness it has somewhat degenerated into a big melting pot of information spreading.  It appears no topic is off limits in discussion.

Does anyone feel like that?

Reading the GDB?  It's done out of habit now and inevitably, every time I actually read something, I end up shaking my head. There is more information, IC sensitive information, on the GDB now than I have found out while in game.  I look at the top of the page, I read all the posts that shout out against the time old "Find out IC" answer and I realize that I'm beginning to feel like an old player and I'm a toddler in my Arm-life.

I'm disappointed, I guess is the easiest way to describe it, that people would rather be told than to discover.  When I sit riveted in front of the screen when something new happens, when something I haven't seen happens and suddenly my character is stunned to life.

Maybe I'm wrong, it's possible, happens all the time, but I think that the GDB has become so blurred a line that it's nearly impossible to police any more. Things that would have immediately been snubbed on the old GDB are as blatant as the nose on Cyrano's face today.  

Some people will not be able to relate to this post but I hope others will, I would love some reassurance that I'm not the only one thinking this way.

Here's hoping this doesn't degenerate into more crap, let the discussion begin.


-She who marks most topics read...

[Petra]

I'm quite pleased the GDB isn't as policed as you would like it to be.  Half the time I've encountered something that brought in the RP Fascists to parade their IC-Sensitive banners around, it was something that, if you looked hard enough, was actually in game documentation and therefore not "ic sensitive" -- instead, it was merely hard to find.  I think it's pretty obvious what's what.  I don't give a toss if someone says the Tan Muark call their homeland Tyn Dashra and they dwell in the Tablelands, for example.  Even if it was labeled "IC info", so what, I mean honest, are you just trying to be an over achiever, because I don't see how knowing that really spoils anything.  I don't see how knowing half the things people complain about as so-called IC is really abusive or a spoiler.  Now, if you're posting the words and components to various spells in game or if you're telling me highly secretive information on a character, I have every confidence this will be deleted.  But serious, what exactly is being posted that you're all upset about, and also, ask yourself, are you REALLY upset about what is allegedly being revealed?  A few examples would help.

[Tamarin]

I'm of the mind that there is -so much- IC information that I will probably never ever ever ever find out.  As such, I don't really see all that much being divulged on this board.  In a lot of cases, people are asking for help about stuff their characters should know how to do/know where to go/know how to act.  A character who has supposedly lived 20-odd years in whatever city-state is going to know absolutely where to buy water, how to repesct the nobility, what creatures are fluffy little teddy bears, and which are roaming outside the gates looking for zalanthan pop-tarts.

I have seen a number of posts completely removed by the IMMs because they contained a bit of IC information that is simply too sensitive.  As for what's left, I find myself not knowing much more about the game than I did before reading the posts.  The game world is so complex, so expansive, and so protected, that the kind of spoilers you talk about just isn't going to happen.  And if it does happen for you, maybe its time to stop reading that one particular forum that seems to always seems to destroy the surprises.

We're not all unhuman, roleplaying machines.  Most of us are curious information whores, and we don't care whether or not we find out in game whether or not some templar has a steel bastard sword shoved in a closet in his house.

[ShaLeah]

Maybe I am an RP fascist/elitist. I'm sure I'm not the only one of those.  :wink:
For my example I'll just direct anyone to the Ask the Players forum which seems to be saturated the most with IC sensitive information.

...no IC-sensitive information

... if you looked hard enough, was actually in game documentation and therefore not "ic sensitive"

I'm not sure that the meaning of "IC-sensitive" is equal to "something that can't be found out in the documentation", but it doesn't meant that to me.  After a very quick search through the help-files did not mention the name of the Muarki lands, you do not find that sensitive, I would.

It's clear we disagree.

[Carnage]

Maybe because it's not fun to play around someone who uses spoilers everywhere and constantly points out things that they shouldn't know?

Example: There's a few things that, in my opinion, should be removed from the Arm site. Case in point: a few named sorcerer spells and the paths of whatever. Why would any normal character know these? Why would someone who's been mining all their life, or a pickpocket from the Rinth, or a warrior that spent his life in bar brawls, know this? What happens when we run into a sorceror?

"oh its okay they only know these spells no just attack". All right, what if this person is your lieutenant who doesn't want to believe that this defiler, who can soil the lands about them and absorb their powers, isn't so tough just because he knows they have these abilities and tells you to attack and thinks only of the code rather than of RP?

Or suppose people start taking those spells and discussing them on the GDB. "Hey, the docs say that soandso gets spell obdulaoblongata, what do you think it does and why?" It's in the docs, but if I say "find out in game" am I still going to be a "rp facist"?

are you REALLY upset about what is allegedly being revealed?

No, I'm not, because not much gets me upset and it's a game. But there's some things that shouldn't be passed around.

[Tamarin]

Example: There's a few things that, in my opinion, should be removed from the Arm site. Case in point: a few named sorcerer spells and the paths of whatever. Why would any normal character know these? Why would someone who's been mining all their life, or a pickpocket from the Rinth, or a warrior that spent his life in bar brawls, know this? What happens when we run into a sorceror?

*Gasp* I agree with Carnage on something?  Yep.  That stuff should absolutely -not- be in the helpfiles whatsoever.  I mean, it should be accessible to those classes in game (is that possible?), but no one should ever know how the magick system works until they get the appropriate karma.  A feel a bit dirty even making a comment like this, and the only reason I do it is because I played a magicker before karma existed...Basically, and correct me if I'm wrong, but there's no way for anyone to tell what "spell words" magicker is saying?  The only message you get is "so and so utters an incantation...blah blah blah"?

[ShaLeah]

Basically, and correct me if I'm wrong, but there's no way for anyone to tell what "spell words" magicker is saying?  The only message you get is "so and so utters an incantation...blah blah blah"?

This is IC information. The answer to this should not be discussed on the GDB.

Editted to add:  Just using this as an example uberjazz.  Don't want ya to feel attacked or anything.  

[Tamarin]

Basically, and correct me if I'm wrong, but there's no way for anyone to tell what "spell words" magicker is saying?  The only message you get is "so and so utters an incantation...blah blah blah"?

This is IC information. The answer to this should not be discussed on the GDB.

Editted to add:  Just using this as an example uberjazz.  Don't want ya to feel attacked or anything.  

I know, and I don't.  The thing is, what I just said is in the docs.  I think my point, and Carnage's, is that it shouldn't be in the docs.

[Carnage]

The spell words and such aren't in there, but the names are. And some of the names just give away what the spells do, and you shouldn't know what a sorcerer can do.

[ShaLeah]

I guess this is where I differ from some people. I like having the information available should I decide to search. I just -don't- search unless I have need to, be it IC necessity or OOC curiosity.  My husband is the only person I know who spent the course of a week reading the documentation available, I was too impatient to read more than the basics.  People's ability to know things oocly and not bring them into game...? I think that's the responsibility of every player.

I wouldn't be opposed to certain help-files being somehow restricted to people who have the karma to play that particular option but the easiest way to do that is to separate the files into karma sensitive documentation, much like we do with the clans. For example, I get awarded karma 5 and in my account notes, instead of the "I awarded your fascist, elitist ass karma 5" I would see, "I awarded your fascist, elitist ass karma 5, to access the documentation go to http://www.armageddon.org/karma#5   The password is suchandsuch".

That's a lot of work and not of a high priority should it even sound interesting or feasable to the staff.

[Kalden]

How about a few examples of dangerous IC information being spread?

I don't see it as a problem. Occasionally people start threads right after they die, but so what? Knowing someone's dead isn't usually a big deal. Knowing someone's character isn't a big deal. If you disagree with me, tell me how it is dangerous.

I know who Carnage plays. Tell me what problems could result from this.

And, yeah, I have heard the story about Freil... please don't bring that up again.

The spell words and such aren't in there, but the names are.

There are only the most basic spell names. Not very dangerous IC info.

[creeper386]

To my knowledge. Helpfiles concerning magick spells and such are restricted to someone currently playing a character that HAS those spells. I'm pretty sure those helpfiles are restricted on the site as well for everyone. The stuff on the site does have the words and such, but I don't think those are any help outside of the magicker classes period.

If you start discussing magicker spells and such on the GDB, I'm sure the post well be deleted and probably a chance of further action taking. You discuss things of active PCs, plots, current events ... Most likely it'd be deleted. Things are policed already.

I was only around for 2-3 months on the old GDB, but the exchange of information seems no different then it is now. No increase in information, it's just easier alot of the time to read the new GDB. For the whole time I've been at Arm, there are these posts that the IC info spreading is getting worse on the board, and I think there have been staff and even old timers posting that it's not really that true. There might be ups and downs of it happening but as a whole it hasn't seemed to increase any.


Personally, I wouldn't be too worried about the GDB. If players see something they think is contraversial I'm sure at least some times they'd report it. The staff sees problems they handle it ... At least it's moderated. I am almost positive if you want to find information about this or that you could probably find some player with the knowledge and is willing to give it away, which isn't moderated at all.

And, if it's in the documentation that's accessable to everyone ... What's the difference between posting that information and giving a link to that information? I don't know. I see little difference.


Creeper

[Angela Christine]

The spell words and such aren't in there, but the names are. And some of the names just give away what the spells do, and you shouldn't know what a sorcerer can do.

So what?  If you've played other DIKU muds or D&D you will have a good chance of guessing what sorts of spells a sorcerer may have access to.  

Those files give away the names of four spells.  They don't say when or how a Sorcerer gets access to those spells.  Are they starting spells, or branched spells?  It doesn't say.  How many spells does a sorcerer start with?  1?  4?  6?  10?  It doesn't say.  You might look at those files and guess that a socerer can do X, but that doesn't mean that he can't also do Y, Z, and M.  It would be fair to assume that any very powerful sorcerer has access to those 4 spells, but he probably also has access to 50 others.  

You could also infer that since the city-state leaders are sometimes refered to as Sorcerer-Kings that a sorcerer has the potential to create his own Templars and share his power with them.  Is this a starting spell?  Who knows?  Only people that have been Sorcerers.  You would have to be a fool to assume that you know what someone can do based on the fact that you caught them defiling and they are wearing newbie pants.  It could be that she had to take the newbie's pants off to preform a ritual sacrifice on him, and in the process got his blood and entrails all over her own pants, so she decided to wear his pants while hers are at the demonic drycleaners. :twisted:  

The docs provide clues and hints, but it is still left to the reader to interpret them, or misinterpret them.  I don't think the magick docs currently availible reveal anything harmful.  Armageddon does have an unusual magick system, especially for a Diku derivitive, so making that information available may help whet the intrest of potential players.  



Angela Christine

Note:  Demonic Drycleaners may or may not exist, I did not use IC or OOC game knowledge in that example.  Any similarity to actual Demonic Drycleaners, real or imagined, is purely coincidental.

[Carnage]

How about a few examples of dangerous IC information being spread?

An assassination plot involving one of my characters was spoiled when an immortal accidentally told me that my character was going to be assassinated. This made things very unenjoyable and a pain in the ass on all sides.

I don't see it as a problem. Occasionally people start threads right after they die, but so what? Knowing someone's dead isn't usually a big deal. Knowing someone's character isn't a big deal. If you disagree with me, tell me how it is dangerous.

The story of Freil's?

I know who Carnage plays. Tell me what problems could result from this.

If someone sympathises with me and likes my views and plays, say, a templar, they could go easier on me. Or they might pick my character over someone else for a job, even if the other person is more qualified and a better candidate. And the reverse for if a person doesn't like me.

And, yeah, I have heard the story about Freil... please don't bring that up again.

Why not?

There are only the most basic spell names. Not very dangerous IC info.

Says who?

[Tiernan]

How about a few examples of dangerous IC information being spread?

I don't see it as a problem. Occasionally people start threads right after they die, but so what? Knowing someone's dead isn't usually a big deal. Knowing someone's character isn't a big deal. If you disagree with me, tell me how it is dangerous.

I have several examples to pull from the game's history, but they are all variations on the same theme.

The one I'll bring up was a plot/quest that Thanas (a Storyteller at the time) was running.  Thanas wrote an excellent post as to how OOC sharing can really ruin a plotline on the old GDB, I'll try and find it and post the link if I do.  However, one of the key stages of the plotline was for a powerful magick user to assume the identity of someone and pose as them for a short while, instigating the plotline down the route Thanas wanted it to go.  Of course, as soon as the pivotal character was slain by the magicker, the word was out.  So when Thanas' "version" of the character sauntered back into town, all of his best buddies and closest friends shunned him and brought the authorities down on the "imposter."  Of course, there was no way these characters would have known IC that their friend had died: there was no final cry for help over the Way, no messages of any kind sent to anyone to relay that the original PC was in danger, nothing.  The original PC went out on his daily routine, like always, and came back, like always.  Thanas had all the angles covered, having had the magicker study the victim intensely, so as not to "slip out of character" of the victim.  But the clear-cut rejection of his friends upon his immediate return was more than an obvious indication of how OOC spreads faster than the clap, and how sharing something you may consider to be totally innocuous can really screw things up for everyone.

That's the problem with jumping onto your favorite IM client or IRC channel and broadcasting to all your friends that your PC "Johnny, the awesomely-described character" just died.  In Thanas' case, spreading of OOC information completely spoiled a plotline that he had put a lot of time, thought, and energy into.  The worst and ironic part of all that is that he did all that work for the players who abused the OOC info given to them by their friend.  Talk about disappointment on many levels.  It's instances like that which really take their toll on the staff and make them question "Why bother?".

[Lazloth]

Thanas wrote an excellent post as to how OOC sharing can really ruin a plotline on the old GDB, I'll try and find it and post the link if I do.

http://www.armageddon.org/HyperNews/get/general-archive1996/7.html

[EvilRoeSlade]

Basically, and correct me if I'm wrong, but there's no way for anyone to tell what "spell words" magicker is saying?  The only message you get is "so and so utters an incantation...blah blah blah"?

This is IC information. The answer to this should not be discussed on the GDB.

Editted to add:  Just using this as an example uberjazz.  Don't want ya to feel attacked or anything.   :)

Oddly enough, nobody has given him the answer to that question.

I'm just not seeing very much IC information on the GDB at all.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

ERS, I concur.

[Tamarin]

This is IC information. The answer to this should not be discussed on the GDB.

Editted to add:  Just using this as an example uberjazz.  Don't want ya to feel attacked or anything.  

Oddly enough, nobody has given him the answer to that question.

I'm just not seeing very much IC information on the GDB at all.

Mmm...and then why aren't we all happy?

[crymerci]

Edit: oops, didn't see page 2.

[Callisto]

I know who Carnage plays. Tell me what problems could result from this.

Suppose you are playing a character in a position of power and you don't like Carnage the player, because he is a rat bastard that slept with all three of your sisters and then stole your bike. Now you find yourself interacting with his character... if history is any sort of example, problems will ensue, even if they're just spurred on by an overly critical imagination.

The smallest bit of IC information can trigger some plot-killer events, so it is generally best to avoid posting any information if it can be avoided. There can never be a shield against this kind of information, as long as we have an active community - PM/IM, IRC, GDB, E-mail - there will be people who let information slip and people who are willing to use it. The staff cannot police this kind of information, it's the kind of thing that players will have to do for themselves.

I like the GDB and I don't feel there is a huge amount of information being posted - but as a recent example, there were two people from a clan I played in who posted about their characters deaths less then a week after it happened. That spoiled some things for me... your average player might not have known, but I'm damn sure everyone in the clan knew who they were talking about. One of the posts hosted a piece of information that even most people in the clan didn't know about.

It wasn't that big of a deal, but it could have been, and it was such an unknown boo-boo that they seemed genuinely surprised with people who pointed out that it was IC sensitive information. That kind of worries me, but there is nothing that can be done about it, short of people making an effort to let people know when something is a little too IC and trusting them to edit it out and not repeat the mistake.

Considering the GDB could be compared to a tank for if competitive, blood thirsty piranhas, I don't think that is going to happen any time soon. It seems the options are either accept that sooner or later you will be exposed to a bit of IC sensitive information or go completely recluse from the community.

Not a great situation, but it's still better then posting under the Zhaira moderation regime, which is the kind of extreme control that would be needed to filter out all the IC information by force. Of course, under such an iron-fisted rule, Carnage and I (being the same person) would be the first sent to the concentration camps, and you wouldn't want that, would you?

[sacac]

I could say, My PC is dead.
Killed by so-and-so during one of our many parties.
Because that guy was a twink..

My point being, I don't see that much, or none at all, probably because I dont care what others are doing with there PC's.

It is -your- responsibility to not take OOC info IG. IMO
Are you very responsible?
That is up to you to ruin your own fun, not Mine.

[Cuusardo]

I think that sharing IC info via other OOC means of communication is a bigger problem than the bits of IC information that make it to the GDB.

Just my two cents.

[gfair]

I'm a bit of a hybrid - partially RP-elitist (Oh, and since when was there anything wrong with that?) and definitely hate seeing IC info shared on the board.

Another example - the HRPT involving Luirs from several months ago.  There was a thread in which people began discussing "What went on" but by the time I had read about 20 posts, I knew a LOT about what went on because of people revealing some details that virtually screamed "SPOILERS".  Now, I was also involved in the HRPT, but anybody who had played the game for a reasonable amount of time and was familiar with the documents could have found out in a short while what went on in the RPT because of the thread.

The other thing I can't stand? Someone asks a question about information that touches on IC-sensitive material, the first reply says "Find out IC", then I go on to read the next 7 posts GIVE OUT that IC information.

Do I want to see the site policed more? Let's see if we have the discipline to self-police first, alright, like we have tried to do with the OOC derailment issue? If that doesn't work, then it's time for us to ask the Staff to stop this information sharing.

[spawnloser]

Sacac, sometimes it is harder than you think...sometimes lines get blurred and you don't really remember where that information came from that you've known for months RL.  If the person that got you that information hadn't said anything, that wouldn't be the case.

Don't spread around anything IC through OOC means unless the staff okays it for whatever reason.