The amount of IC information shared on the GDB.

[ShaLeah]

This subject has bothered me for some time and I wanted to see what people felt about this.

I feel that while the GDB has retained it's usefulness it has somewhat degenerated into a big melting pot of information spreading.  It appears no topic is off limits in discussion.

Does anyone feel like that?

Reading the GDB?  It's done out of habit now and inevitably, every time I actually read something, I end up shaking my head. There is more information, IC sensitive information, on the GDB now than I have found out while in game.  I look at the top of the page, I read all the posts that shout out against the time old "Find out IC" answer and I realize that I'm beginning to feel like an old player and I'm a toddler in my Arm-life.

I'm disappointed, I guess is the easiest way to describe it, that people would rather be told than to discover.  When I sit riveted in front of the screen when something new happens, when something I haven't seen happens and suddenly my character is stunned to life.

Maybe I'm wrong, it's possible, happens all the time, but I think that the GDB has become so blurred a line that it's nearly impossible to police any more. Things that would have immediately been snubbed on the old GDB are as blatant as the nose on Cyrano's face today.  

Some people will not be able to relate to this post but I hope others will, I would love some reassurance that I'm not the only one thinking this way.

Here's hoping this doesn't degenerate into more crap, let the discussion begin.


-She who marks most topics read...

[Petra]

I'm quite pleased the GDB isn't as policed as you would like it to be.  Half the time I've encountered something that brought in the RP Fascists to parade their IC-Sensitive banners around, it was something that, if you looked hard enough, was actually in game documentation and therefore not "ic sensitive" -- instead, it was merely hard to find.  I think it's pretty obvious what's what.  I don't give a toss if someone says the Tan Muark call their homeland Tyn Dashra and they dwell in the Tablelands, for example.  Even if it was labeled "IC info", so what, I mean honest, are you just trying to be an over achiever, because I don't see how knowing that really spoils anything.  I don't see how knowing half the things people complain about as so-called IC is really abusive or a spoiler.  Now, if you're posting the words and components to various spells in game or if you're telling me highly secretive information on a character, I have every confidence this will be deleted.  But serious, what exactly is being posted that you're all upset about, and also, ask yourself, are you REALLY upset about what is allegedly being revealed?  A few examples would help.

[Tamarin]

I'm of the mind that there is -so much- IC information that I will probably never ever ever ever find out.  As such, I don't really see all that much being divulged on this board.  In a lot of cases, people are asking for help about stuff their characters should know how to do/know where to go/know how to act.  A character who has supposedly lived 20-odd years in whatever city-state is going to know absolutely where to buy water, how to repesct the nobility, what creatures are fluffy little teddy bears, and which are roaming outside the gates looking for zalanthan pop-tarts.

I have seen a number of posts completely removed by the IMMs because they contained a bit of IC information that is simply too sensitive.  As for what's left, I find myself not knowing much more about the game than I did before reading the posts.  The game world is so complex, so expansive, and so protected, that the kind of spoilers you talk about just isn't going to happen.  And if it does happen for you, maybe its time to stop reading that one particular forum that seems to always seems to destroy the surprises.

We're not all unhuman, roleplaying machines.  Most of us are curious information whores, and we don't care whether or not we find out in game whether or not some templar has a steel bastard sword shoved in a closet in his house.

[ShaLeah]

Maybe I am an RP fascist/elitist. I'm sure I'm not the only one of those.  :wink:
For my example I'll just direct anyone to the Ask the Players forum which seems to be saturated the most with IC sensitive information.

...no IC-sensitive information

... if you looked hard enough, was actually in game documentation and therefore not "ic sensitive"

I'm not sure that the meaning of "IC-sensitive" is equal to "something that can't be found out in the documentation", but it doesn't meant that to me.  After a very quick search through the help-files did not mention the name of the Muarki lands, you do not find that sensitive, I would.

It's clear we disagree.

[Carnage]

Maybe because it's not fun to play around someone who uses spoilers everywhere and constantly points out things that they shouldn't know?

Example: There's a few things that, in my opinion, should be removed from the Arm site. Case in point: a few named sorcerer spells and the paths of whatever. Why would any normal character know these? Why would someone who's been mining all their life, or a pickpocket from the Rinth, or a warrior that spent his life in bar brawls, know this? What happens when we run into a sorceror?

"oh its okay they only know these spells no just attack". All right, what if this person is your lieutenant who doesn't want to believe that this defiler, who can soil the lands about them and absorb their powers, isn't so tough just because he knows they have these abilities and tells you to attack and thinks only of the code rather than of RP?

Or suppose people start taking those spells and discussing them on the GDB. "Hey, the docs say that soandso gets spell obdulaoblongata, what do you think it does and why?" It's in the docs, but if I say "find out in game" am I still going to be a "rp facist"?

are you REALLY upset about what is allegedly being revealed?

No, I'm not, because not much gets me upset and it's a game. But there's some things that shouldn't be passed around.

[Tamarin]

Example: There's a few things that, in my opinion, should be removed from the Arm site. Case in point: a few named sorcerer spells and the paths of whatever. Why would any normal character know these? Why would someone who's been mining all their life, or a pickpocket from the Rinth, or a warrior that spent his life in bar brawls, know this? What happens when we run into a sorceror?

*Gasp* I agree with Carnage on something?  Yep.  That stuff should absolutely -not- be in the helpfiles whatsoever.  I mean, it should be accessible to those classes in game (is that possible?), but no one should ever know how the magick system works until they get the appropriate karma.  A feel a bit dirty even making a comment like this, and the only reason I do it is because I played a magicker before karma existed...Basically, and correct me if I'm wrong, but there's no way for anyone to tell what "spell words" magicker is saying?  The only message you get is "so and so utters an incantation...blah blah blah"?

[ShaLeah]

Basically, and correct me if I'm wrong, but there's no way for anyone to tell what "spell words" magicker is saying?  The only message you get is "so and so utters an incantation...blah blah blah"?

This is IC information. The answer to this should not be discussed on the GDB.

Editted to add:  Just using this as an example uberjazz.  Don't want ya to feel attacked or anything.  

[Tamarin]

Basically, and correct me if I'm wrong, but there's no way for anyone to tell what "spell words" magicker is saying?  The only message you get is "so and so utters an incantation...blah blah blah"?

This is IC information. The answer to this should not be discussed on the GDB.

Editted to add:  Just using this as an example uberjazz.  Don't want ya to feel attacked or anything.  

I know, and I don't.  The thing is, what I just said is in the docs.  I think my point, and Carnage's, is that it shouldn't be in the docs.

[Carnage]

The spell words and such aren't in there, but the names are. And some of the names just give away what the spells do, and you shouldn't know what a sorcerer can do.

[ShaLeah]

I guess this is where I differ from some people. I like having the information available should I decide to search. I just -don't- search unless I have need to, be it IC necessity or OOC curiosity.  My husband is the only person I know who spent the course of a week reading the documentation available, I was too impatient to read more than the basics.  People's ability to know things oocly and not bring them into game...? I think that's the responsibility of every player.

I wouldn't be opposed to certain help-files being somehow restricted to people who have the karma to play that particular option but the easiest way to do that is to separate the files into karma sensitive documentation, much like we do with the clans. For example, I get awarded karma 5 and in my account notes, instead of the "I awarded your fascist, elitist ass karma 5" I would see, "I awarded your fascist, elitist ass karma 5, to access the documentation go to http://www.armageddon.org/karma#5   The password is suchandsuch".

That's a lot of work and not of a high priority should it even sound interesting or feasable to the staff.

[Kalden]

How about a few examples of dangerous IC information being spread?

I don't see it as a problem. Occasionally people start threads right after they die, but so what? Knowing someone's dead isn't usually a big deal. Knowing someone's character isn't a big deal. If you disagree with me, tell me how it is dangerous.

I know who Carnage plays. Tell me what problems could result from this.

And, yeah, I have heard the story about Freil... please don't bring that up again.

The spell words and such aren't in there, but the names are.

There are only the most basic spell names. Not very dangerous IC info.

[creeper386]

To my knowledge. Helpfiles concerning magick spells and such are restricted to someone currently playing a character that HAS those spells. I'm pretty sure those helpfiles are restricted on the site as well for everyone. The stuff on the site does have the words and such, but I don't think those are any help outside of the magicker classes period.

If you start discussing magicker spells and such on the GDB, I'm sure the post well be deleted and probably a chance of further action taking. You discuss things of active PCs, plots, current events ... Most likely it'd be deleted. Things are policed already.

I was only around for 2-3 months on the old GDB, but the exchange of information seems no different then it is now. No increase in information, it's just easier alot of the time to read the new GDB. For the whole time I've been at Arm, there are these posts that the IC info spreading is getting worse on the board, and I think there have been staff and even old timers posting that it's not really that true. There might be ups and downs of it happening but as a whole it hasn't seemed to increase any.


Personally, I wouldn't be too worried about the GDB. If players see something they think is contraversial I'm sure at least some times they'd report it. The staff sees problems they handle it ... At least it's moderated. I am almost positive if you want to find information about this or that you could probably find some player with the knowledge and is willing to give it away, which isn't moderated at all.

And, if it's in the documentation that's accessable to everyone ... What's the difference between posting that information and giving a link to that information? I don't know. I see little difference.


Creeper

[Angela Christine]

The spell words and such aren't in there, but the names are. And some of the names just give away what the spells do, and you shouldn't know what a sorcerer can do.

So what?  If you've played other DIKU muds or D&D you will have a good chance of guessing what sorts of spells a sorcerer may have access to.  

Those files give away the names of four spells.  They don't say when or how a Sorcerer gets access to those spells.  Are they starting spells, or branched spells?  It doesn't say.  How many spells does a sorcerer start with?  1?  4?  6?  10?  It doesn't say.  You might look at those files and guess that a socerer can do X, but that doesn't mean that he can't also do Y, Z, and M.  It would be fair to assume that any very powerful sorcerer has access to those 4 spells, but he probably also has access to 50 others.  

You could also infer that since the city-state leaders are sometimes refered to as Sorcerer-Kings that a sorcerer has the potential to create his own Templars and share his power with them.  Is this a starting spell?  Who knows?  Only people that have been Sorcerers.  You would have to be a fool to assume that you know what someone can do based on the fact that you caught them defiling and they are wearing newbie pants.  It could be that she had to take the newbie's pants off to preform a ritual sacrifice on him, and in the process got his blood and entrails all over her own pants, so she decided to wear his pants while hers are at the demonic drycleaners. :twisted:  

The docs provide clues and hints, but it is still left to the reader to interpret them, or misinterpret them.  I don't think the magick docs currently availible reveal anything harmful.  Armageddon does have an unusual magick system, especially for a Diku derivitive, so making that information available may help whet the intrest of potential players.  



Angela Christine

Note:  Demonic Drycleaners may or may not exist, I did not use IC or OOC game knowledge in that example.  Any similarity to actual Demonic Drycleaners, real or imagined, is purely coincidental.

[Carnage]

How about a few examples of dangerous IC information being spread?

An assassination plot involving one of my characters was spoiled when an immortal accidentally told me that my character was going to be assassinated. This made things very unenjoyable and a pain in the ass on all sides.

I don't see it as a problem. Occasionally people start threads right after they die, but so what? Knowing someone's dead isn't usually a big deal. Knowing someone's character isn't a big deal. If you disagree with me, tell me how it is dangerous.

The story of Freil's?

I know who Carnage plays. Tell me what problems could result from this.

If someone sympathises with me and likes my views and plays, say, a templar, they could go easier on me. Or they might pick my character over someone else for a job, even if the other person is more qualified and a better candidate. And the reverse for if a person doesn't like me.

And, yeah, I have heard the story about Freil... please don't bring that up again.

Why not?

There are only the most basic spell names. Not very dangerous IC info.

Says who?

[Tiernan]

How about a few examples of dangerous IC information being spread?

I don't see it as a problem. Occasionally people start threads right after they die, but so what? Knowing someone's dead isn't usually a big deal. Knowing someone's character isn't a big deal. If you disagree with me, tell me how it is dangerous.

I have several examples to pull from the game's history, but they are all variations on the same theme.

The one I'll bring up was a plot/quest that Thanas (a Storyteller at the time) was running.  Thanas wrote an excellent post as to how OOC sharing can really ruin a plotline on the old GDB, I'll try and find it and post the link if I do.  However, one of the key stages of the plotline was for a powerful magick user to assume the identity of someone and pose as them for a short while, instigating the plotline down the route Thanas wanted it to go.  Of course, as soon as the pivotal character was slain by the magicker, the word was out.  So when Thanas' "version" of the character sauntered back into town, all of his best buddies and closest friends shunned him and brought the authorities down on the "imposter."  Of course, there was no way these characters would have known IC that their friend had died: there was no final cry for help over the Way, no messages of any kind sent to anyone to relay that the original PC was in danger, nothing.  The original PC went out on his daily routine, like always, and came back, like always.  Thanas had all the angles covered, having had the magicker study the victim intensely, so as not to "slip out of character" of the victim.  But the clear-cut rejection of his friends upon his immediate return was more than an obvious indication of how OOC spreads faster than the clap, and how sharing something you may consider to be totally innocuous can really screw things up for everyone.

That's the problem with jumping onto your favorite IM client or IRC channel and broadcasting to all your friends that your PC "Johnny, the awesomely-described character" just died.  In Thanas' case, spreading of OOC information completely spoiled a plotline that he had put a lot of time, thought, and energy into.  The worst and ironic part of all that is that he did all that work for the players who abused the OOC info given to them by their friend.  Talk about disappointment on many levels.  It's instances like that which really take their toll on the staff and make them question "Why bother?".

[Lazloth]

Thanas wrote an excellent post as to how OOC sharing can really ruin a plotline on the old GDB, I'll try and find it and post the link if I do.

http://www.armageddon.org/HyperNews/get/general-archive1996/7.html

[EvilRoeSlade]

Basically, and correct me if I'm wrong, but there's no way for anyone to tell what "spell words" magicker is saying?  The only message you get is "so and so utters an incantation...blah blah blah"?

This is IC information. The answer to this should not be discussed on the GDB.

Editted to add:  Just using this as an example uberjazz.  Don't want ya to feel attacked or anything.   :)

Oddly enough, nobody has given him the answer to that question.

I'm just not seeing very much IC information on the GDB at all.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

ERS, I concur.

[Tamarin]

This is IC information. The answer to this should not be discussed on the GDB.

Editted to add:  Just using this as an example uberjazz.  Don't want ya to feel attacked or anything.  

Oddly enough, nobody has given him the answer to that question.

I'm just not seeing very much IC information on the GDB at all.

Mmm...and then why aren't we all happy?

[crymerci]

Edit: oops, didn't see page 2.

[Callisto]

I know who Carnage plays. Tell me what problems could result from this.

Suppose you are playing a character in a position of power and you don't like Carnage the player, because he is a rat bastard that slept with all three of your sisters and then stole your bike. Now you find yourself interacting with his character... if history is any sort of example, problems will ensue, even if they're just spurred on by an overly critical imagination.

The smallest bit of IC information can trigger some plot-killer events, so it is generally best to avoid posting any information if it can be avoided. There can never be a shield against this kind of information, as long as we have an active community - PM/IM, IRC, GDB, E-mail - there will be people who let information slip and people who are willing to use it. The staff cannot police this kind of information, it's the kind of thing that players will have to do for themselves.

I like the GDB and I don't feel there is a huge amount of information being posted - but as a recent example, there were two people from a clan I played in who posted about their characters deaths less then a week after it happened. That spoiled some things for me... your average player might not have known, but I'm damn sure everyone in the clan knew who they were talking about. One of the posts hosted a piece of information that even most people in the clan didn't know about.

It wasn't that big of a deal, but it could have been, and it was such an unknown boo-boo that they seemed genuinely surprised with people who pointed out that it was IC sensitive information. That kind of worries me, but there is nothing that can be done about it, short of people making an effort to let people know when something is a little too IC and trusting them to edit it out and not repeat the mistake.

Considering the GDB could be compared to a tank for if competitive, blood thirsty piranhas, I don't think that is going to happen any time soon. It seems the options are either accept that sooner or later you will be exposed to a bit of IC sensitive information or go completely recluse from the community.

Not a great situation, but it's still better then posting under the Zhaira moderation regime, which is the kind of extreme control that would be needed to filter out all the IC information by force. Of course, under such an iron-fisted rule, Carnage and I (being the same person) would be the first sent to the concentration camps, and you wouldn't want that, would you?

[sacac]

I could say, My PC is dead.
Killed by so-and-so during one of our many parties.
Because that guy was a twink..

My point being, I don't see that much, or none at all, probably because I dont care what others are doing with there PC's.

It is -your- responsibility to not take OOC info IG. IMO
Are you very responsible?
That is up to you to ruin your own fun, not Mine.

[Cuusardo]

I think that sharing IC info via other OOC means of communication is a bigger problem than the bits of IC information that make it to the GDB.

Just my two cents.

[gfair]

I'm a bit of a hybrid - partially RP-elitist (Oh, and since when was there anything wrong with that?) and definitely hate seeing IC info shared on the board.

Another example - the HRPT involving Luirs from several months ago.  There was a thread in which people began discussing "What went on" but by the time I had read about 20 posts, I knew a LOT about what went on because of people revealing some details that virtually screamed "SPOILERS".  Now, I was also involved in the HRPT, but anybody who had played the game for a reasonable amount of time and was familiar with the documents could have found out in a short while what went on in the RPT because of the thread.

The other thing I can't stand? Someone asks a question about information that touches on IC-sensitive material, the first reply says "Find out IC", then I go on to read the next 7 posts GIVE OUT that IC information.

Do I want to see the site policed more? Let's see if we have the discipline to self-police first, alright, like we have tried to do with the OOC derailment issue? If that doesn't work, then it's time for us to ask the Staff to stop this information sharing.

[spawnloser]

Sacac, sometimes it is harder than you think...sometimes lines get blurred and you don't really remember where that information came from that you've known for months RL.  If the person that got you that information hadn't said anything, that wouldn't be the case.

Don't spread around anything IC through OOC means unless the staff okays it for whatever reason.

[Angela Christine]

I like Zhaira's moderating, though I fear for her sanity.    Sometimes a reminder from a staff member is helpful, while reminders from other players generally are not.


AC

[Forest Junkie]

I think that sharing IC info via other OOC means of communication is a bigger problem than the bits of IC information that make it to the GDB.

Just my two cents.

Agreed.

The staff seems on top of things pretty much, in that they are quick to take off something from the board they deem IC-sensitive. My opinion, though.

[Akaramu]

All of this wouldnt be so much of an issue if wasnt common knowledge who plays what character in so many cases.

I personally refuse to respond to any more clan role calls unless the imm asks me to, and there is a good reason.

I might not even post on clan boards anymore unless its really called for.

[wizturbo]

All of this wouldnt be so much of an issue if wasnt common knowledge who plays what character in so many cases.

I personally refuse to respond to any more clan role calls unless the imm asks me to, and there is a good reason.

I might not even post on clan boards anymore unless its really called for.

You can make alternate GDB names to stay undercover?  Or is that not allowed?  I think it kinda ruins the fun if you know a character's player.  Although some players have a style that gives them away :-)

[marilla]

Yes, it is allowed. I am one such a person.

[Akaramu]

Good to know, thank you.

[spawnloser]

Yes, it is allowed...and I know for a fact that I have an alternate that I will be using for any future clan roles.  Unfortunately, I wasn't clear with my clan IMM and this one (my non-alternate GDB name) was added to the clan board.  Oh well, no big deal...I just know that at least a few people know who I play.

[John]

After reading a certain post. Yup. I'm sick of the IC info on the GDB  :roll:

[sacac]

After reading Callisto's last post.
I agree fully.
And this thread has brought some things I never thought about to mind.
And I won't say any IC sensitive INfo (Given I know it is) Unless needed.
When my PC dies, I will say that noone has seen them around. Which leaves you to wonder, Am I on vacation? or am I dead? Who knows.

[Bestatte]

Rather than saying no one has seen them around, you don't have to say anything. If someone is looking for your character, tell them to find your character IC and leave it at that.

If they figure out that you (the player) are available but your character is not over a length of time, then they'll probably come to the conclusion that your character is dead or otherwise permanently unavailable. Such is life, it happens, you can't prevent if if you choose to have pals who mud with you on your instant message buddy list.

It doesn't mean you're "giving out IC info" just by virtue of the fact that other players aren't stupid. It doesn't mean the other players are "using IC info learned in an OOC way" just because they were attentive enough to notice that your character, who is ALWAYS around, has suddenly disappeared.

But this still doesn't mean you have to allude or imply or hint that "something is up." If someone asks "Hey where's your PC been for the past couple of days?" Tell them that dreaded phrase: Find out IC.

[flurry]

I do think that, at times, there is too much IC information on the GDB.   The biggest area where it seems to happen is with information about magickers.   I've learned as much about what magickers can do on the GDB as I have in game, and often on threads that have nothing to do with magick.  So I wish people would be more careful about that, even if they think it's something most people know.  

Occasionally some other IC stuff comes up, but it seems fairly infrequent.   The last HRPT was absolutely ridiculous though.  The number of people posting obviously IC things that day was absurd.

Oh - and people posting about their character dying, that sucks too.   I've had two or three times when I found out about characters dying that way.  One time it was someone posting within a day, and giving details about how it happened.  If you really need to complain about your PC's death or look for a new role, -please- at least think about the fact that if you're using the same GDB name, you may be telling people about your character's death and ruining their opportunity to find out in game for the first time.

Overall I think people are good about this, but even just a little IC spillage onto the board is annoying and can hurt plots.

[Akaramu]

And I won't say any IC sensitive INfo (Given I know it is) Unless needed. When my PC dies, I will say that noone has seen them around. Which leaves you to wonder, Am I on vacation? or am I dead? Who knows.

I think all of us agree that we dont share sensitive IC info. When my last PC died, I was so upset and bummed out OOCly for 2 days, I just had to share it and hear how others deal with it. It only was a problem because so many people knew who I played. And I didnt realize it could be a problem when I posted. In future I'll simply make sure no one knows who I play, period. That solves the problem. Of course I'll still keep sensitive info out of the post, but a simple "I find it hard to get over my last character, any advice?" Will not create a board wide uproar anymore.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Understand that while I say this, I generally do not intentionally indulge in OOC sharage of IC info, nor do I condone it. I feel that it is exciting to not know anything OOC and be forced to discover IC. I feel that it is imperative, in most cases, to plot developement, to not be a future seer.

However, when comparing even the IC info that we might generally OOCly see on this board with that which one might see in a D&D tabletop game, we are very mild. We are still generally ignorant concerning other folks' actions. We may know this, but we may not know why or where or who.

Most of the folks who play this game do so for the roleplay, and so I feel that perhaps a median of trust might be alotted your fellow roleplayers, especially those who you simply do not really know. I think that sometimes we assume the worst, without considering that maybe it simply is not that bad.

Once more, I do not advocate sharing OOC info. Quite simply, it is not koshure. Thanos, I believe, once posted a great example of how it ruined an entire, world-spanning plot. The PCs involved were played poorly, primarily because the players themselves forgot to faucet their OOC knowledge. It would have been better if they had never known. But not every player will follow this route.

You can help to cut back on the amounts of OOC info spread by not informing folks who you play, and by not accepting IC info exchange when it is offered to you. Most chat clients have a nifty ignore button. Adversely, you could also simply not give out your Chat Contact.

What I see on the GBD rarely disturbs me. What you have to realize is that although we can police this board all we want, some things will simply slip through. We are only human. It is pointless to think that we can maintain a spotless IC/OOC line. The best we can do is try.

Rather than simply harping upon the evils of IC/OOC exchange, do something about it. Manage yourself, firstly, and indeed, manage what you read, if needs be. The newbie who very recently posted about their excursion was a newbie. They'll learn.

Let's all try to have some faith in our fellow players to do what is right. And let's start with ourselves. An ounce of prevention, as somebody said once, is worth a pound of cure...(or something like that.)

[Gimme a break]

It's shit like this.

CENSORED BY XYGAX

[Tamarin]

Yeah...I dunno.  That's pretty grey.  I mean...it didn't mention anything specifically, but its still pretty narrow enough that you could figure it out.  *shrug*  I think I'll step aside from this one.

[Xygax]

It would help the staff in moderating the IC info you're complaining about, if you'd stop re-posting it in quotations.  I have edited a few posts in this thread in the hopes of dealing with this issue.  I have no hope of keeping up with all of them.

Thanks,
 Xygax

[grog]

Now I don't like have the game ruined for me anymore then the next guy, but I would prefer that people err more on the side of being, very slightly, willing to share IC, then bark everytime somebody makes a mistake.  

It's a great game, but if I were to tell a new player anything other then that, or even, (lord no!) brag about some of the fun and interesting things I've found?

 I'd have to say the only thing I find hard to swallow sometimes, is how vocal some of the players --yes players, it's been years since I had a complaint about an Immortal, other then sour grapes of course-- get in defending the 'pure' RP that everybody must follow, in and out of the game!

just my opinion.

[John]

It's a great game, but if I were to tell a new player anything other then that, or even, (lord no!) brag about some of the fun and interesting things I've found?

I think sharing that sort of info to get people you know to play the game is definitely not wrong if you do it in person or on IM. But posting it on a public place, or passing the info to a regular player is another story IMO

I'd have to say the only thing I find hard to swallow sometimes, is how vocal some of the players ..... get in defending the 'pure' RP that everybody must follow, in and out of the game!

What do you mean by this? I don't understand  :?:

[Kalden]

Now I don't like have the game ruined for me anymore then the next guy, but I would prefer that people err more on the side of being, very slightly, willing to share IC, then bark everytime somebody makes a mistake.

I agree. Don't know what you mean by 'pure RP', but I'm liberal when it comes to sharing IC information, especially fun stories.

I usually find that everyone is real strict about it on boards, but when you get to know them and become their friend on IM, they're more than willing to share plenty of stuff. It doesn't even matter what your karma level is, either. It's more how impressionable you are, and how deeply someone drilled into your head that you "can never share IC info, never ever".

[Twilight]

There is an insane amount of IC information out there.  Heck, just with the game world alone, without adding in all the PC generated stuff.  That doesn't devalue the importance of it being IC, though.  

I like the GDB as a discussion forum.  I don't like it when I come around and see discussion of code mechanics, people saying they know who X's character is, people letting slip stuff about the magick system, people letting slip the IC name for this or that,  people trying to show how much they know by obscure references, half letting something slip,  thinking no one will be able to figure out what they are refering to, etc.

Each instance isn't generally that much in and of itself.  Stuff that is generally gets moderated, after all.  But I've read the boards for eight or nine years now.  I have more than a fair knowledge of the game world.  These slips add up, you can get to the point where you can made some pretty informed guesses about IC stuff from what you learn here.  I have a fairly strict standpoint towards IC info, I don't even want to be able to guess.

There is a line that should not be crossed.  Where this line is has shifted over the years.  I would say it is fairly liberal right now.

[Akaramu]

The fun IC stories, especially in the "twinkiest things ever done" and "worst death" threads are what got me hooked to the game. Quite some time ago, I read a story someone shared on a different board, about a warrior who barely escaped the fate of being an arena slave, found a mate and had twin girls, and ran into the guy who almost got him killed many years ago again. THAT story made me remember Armageddon when I grew tired of Achaea, and the candy I discovered on this board made me excited enough to dig through all the information, and stick with the game when I encountered frustrating beginner difficulties.

I dont see a problem with sharing stories about characters who are no longer alive, as long as they dont contain information about the magick system, or the likes.

These stories attract new players.

Keep everything to yourselves, and they will never know what there is to discover, and give up in frustration instead of looking forward to the richness they can get themselves involved in.

[Bestatte]

Twilight wrote (in part):

Stuff that is generally gets moderated, after all. But I've read the boards for eight or nine years now. I have more than a fair knowledge of the game world.

Caveat: Twilight, this isn't necessarily directed to you. Obviously you're not the only one in this situation. It's directed to anyone who, through continued play, knows things their current character doesn't know.

I realize that some players, especially when they're new, won't really appreciate the importance and significance of discovering things on their own. That said, what is the difference between my knowing about secret places in certain areas, because a previous character of mine discovered them, and someone whose previous character never discovered them being told about them?

Once you as a player know something, you know it. You can't UNknow it. It's your responsibility to determine whether or not your current character knows what you (the player) know. I feel it's the same with being -told- about things through OOC means by other people. No matter how you learned about something, it's still your responsibility to make sure your character knows only what your character -should- know.

If you don't wanna hear something then sure - telling someone "please don't tell me any more" is appropriate and should be honored by the "teller." And to that end, I feel the GDB is not the place for divulging info, because not everyone is going to want to see it and the only way you know that it's something you don't wanna know, is if you read it. By then it's too late.

However the query still remains: People who've been playing this game awhile and have played a variety of roles, will know things about the game, different clans, secrets, hidden treasures, etc. The players will know these things. The players will have the responsibility to make sure their characters know - or not know - about these things. New players, or players who have played a very limited role over an extended period of time, won't have this knowledge of "stuff." How is them learning of it any different (other than enjoying the experience of finding out first-hand) from what long-time players know by virtue of simply being around longer?

Bear in mind that some people really SUCK at puzzle-solving, for instance. They hate this one very narrow aspect of gaming. They wanna roleplay their hearts out, delve deep into their character's persona, but they just totally and utterly suck at finding clues and solving puzzles.

Now, you have a veteran who's had 3 characters solve this puzzle already. His PLAYER knows the answer to this puzzle, so when his 4th character shows up, he knows that he can decide whether or not his PC will solve it or not, how easy or difficult it will be for his PC to solve it, and in essence he is in complete control over the outcome. All because - he knows IC information that his PC is oblivious to.

Now you have a new player who gets stuck in the middle of this puzzle. He's never gone through it before and he HATES puzzles. He's really bad at them, and all he wants to do is get the fuck out and grab a beer at the local tavern. He's pressed for time, he wants to log out and not show up tomorrrow morning with an empty player base to a puzzle he can't get IC help with.

I'm not suggesting that answers be provided. I think that would be the "wrong" way to solve this issue. What I am suggesting is that people try to take into consideration that many of you - and sure me too - already know this stuff. We have already solved our puzzles, we can sit smugly in our computer chairs and snicker when the newbie struggles, and yell at him when he asks WTF he should do to get out of the puzzle.

Or, we can have a little compassion and remember that we have the advantage, that we already know this *highly* IC information, even though our characters might be clueless.

That's all I wanted to say.

[Larrath]

Solution: New Forum board "IC Stuff and Spoilers".

And I swear I'm not suggesting this just so that IC stuff can be deleted every five minutes.   :roll:

Or, if this is possible, make a new options for regular Board users (or a special semi-admin group) mark a particular message/thread as IC Sensitive, at which point it could be looked at and edited or removed or ignored.

[Bestatte]

I don't think it'll do the game or its community any benefit to intentionally provide IC info to the player base.

I just think people need to be more understanding and empathetic of those who don't know stuff, simply because they haven't had a character experience what some other players have experienced yet.

[Dan]

The only reason I am still here is becuase there isn't some IC spoilers thread. If one were to crop up I am near-certain that the game would degrade to something I would rather not be a part of. I would probably quit playing.

Arm is great becuase of the mystery, not only that, but it is a major part of it. Take the mystery away and all you have is code.

[Bestatte]

The only reason I am still here is becuase there isn't some IC spoilers thread. If one were to crop up I am near-certain that the game would degrade to something I would rather not be a part of. I would probably quit playing.

Arm is great becuase of the mystery, not only that, but it is a major part of it. Take the mystery away and all you have is code.

I agree with the idea. I don't understand the reason you give for it though Dan.

You've been playing awhile now. You already know some of those mysteries and secrets that other players might not know about. Does knowing these things spoil your game play when you create a new character? Do you refuse to participate in any RP that involves your character doing something for the first time, that you already know about through previous character play?

Again - I think spoilers and IC info can certainly hurt the game. But not JUST because they're spoilers and IC info. Instead, it's because some people use this info unfairly. And those are the types of people who would abuse the info no matter where it came from, whether a GDB thread, or PMs, or IRC, or just having experienced these things with previous characters.

And again - I still don't think anyone should expect the game to allow _intentional_ spoilers to be provided. I just would rather people be more understanding when someone fucks up.

[EvilRoeSlade]

You've been playing awhile now. You already know some of those mysteries and secrets that other players might not know about. Does knowing these things spoil your game play when you create a new character? Do you refuse to participate in any RP that involves your character doing something for the first time, that you already know about through previous character play?

I've been playing for a while as well, possibly longer than Dan.  I've even played a templar where I learned a lot of stuff that an ordinary character would never find out, but I still don't know every bit of IC info regarding the game.  In fact, just yesterday I discovered a secret place that I've never been to before.

If somebody told me the ending to the movie that I wanted to see, then I'd still see that movie.  But I'd beat the shit out of the idiot who told me the ending.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I realize that some players, especially when they're new, won't really appreciate the importance and significance of discovering things on their own. That said, what is the difference between my knowing about secret places in certain areas, because a previous character of mine discovered them, and someone whose previous character never discovered them being told about them?

Once you as a player know something, you know it. You can't UNknow it. It's your responsibility to determine whether or not your current character knows what you (the player) know. I feel it's the same with being -told- about things through OOC means by other people. No matter how you learned about something, it's still your responsibility to make sure your character knows only what your character -should- know.

You're missing a crucial period, which is the point when you discover it.  Afterwards, it doesn't matter how you discover it, but at the time it is far more fulfilling to actually discover it with your character than to discover it with the GDB.

Now, you have a veteran who's had 3 characters solve this puzzle already. His PLAYER knows the answer to this puzzle, so when his 4th character shows up, he knows that he can decide whether or not his PC will solve it or not, how easy or difficult it will be for his PC to solve it, and in essence he is in complete control over the outcome. All because - he knows IC information that his PC is oblivious to.

I'm sure that in Armageddon puzzle solving doesn't come up often enough to be an issue, but I'll humor you regardless.  I have only played a single bard, but not for lack of desire.  I've thought of dozens of concepts for bards but I haven't applied for them simply because of the fact that I suck at making up songs.  I think that in the end, what people are good at and what they aren't are always going to influence what kind of characters they play.  Nothing can be done about it, and even if it could, it isn't a problem.

Now you have a new player who gets stuck in the middle of this puzzle. He's never gone through it before and he HATES puzzles. He's really bad at them, and all he wants to do is get the fuck out and grab a beer at the local tavern. He's pressed for time, he wants to log out and not show up tomorrrow morning with an empty player base to a puzzle he can't get IC help with.

Are you attempting to equate giving a newbie IC information with helping them?  If so, I strongly disagree with you.  Somebody starting out in Arm doesn't need to know ANY IC-sensitive information to start playing.  Telling them where they can buy food is fine, but telling them what a magicker can do just because they are curious, or telling them something about Steinal that isn't in the helpfile isn't.

I'm not suggesting that answers be provided. I think that would be the "wrong" way to solve this issue. What I am suggesting is that people try to take into consideration that many of you - and sure me too - already know this stuff. We have already solved our puzzles, we can sit smugly in our computer chairs and snicker when the newbie struggles, and yell at him when he asks WTF he should do to get out of the puzzle.

I'll say again that your example has absolutely no relevance to the game and if you're attempting to hint at some sort of an analogy to something else, you've unfortunately left me clueless.  Perhaps you can come up with a better example?

[sarahjc]

I take great joy in finding things out IC. I am also by nature a very curious person. Something like a spoiler threat would absolutely kill the game for me. Also one of the thing that Arm prides itself on is its secretes. Some that are -extremely- well kept.. Others not so. As a new player there is still an entire world of stuff that I want to know, but really want to find out myself.  I have read almost all the doc's, the short stories, even the songs and poems off the site and some of the stories that are given here. These all give a small peek into the world.. Just a taste to send you off to say.. I really want to know about that.. So my next Character will be a "blankedy Blank, blank". And my goal is this..  This is enough for me, I don't need more and speaking as newbie just slightly past the new stage, this is all I really do need. When I stumble on posts that give me more than I need to know, I feel a bit cheated that I wasn't allowed to find that out myself. Many of the Magic posts do that to me.

One thing that I think could help that is having a Magic's forum.. and maybe let that be only for the people that have that kind of Karma.

1. It would keep those kinds of questions corralled into a place that can be easily monitored.
2. Prevent those of us who shouldn't know that sort of thing from getting that info by mistake
3. It would offer a forum for people that understand the magic system and people that are just learning it to find and offer help.

The way I see it, if you have trusted them to use the magic system, you can probably trust them to ask and answer questions about it responsibly.  If not. You can kick them out of the forum.

As for the rest,  I think you can tell a story, or share a funny moment without giving things away. If people have questions about the logistics of things.. Those can be handled in game here sure, we even have the wonderful and very helpful Helper staff. But secrete passages, finding weird looking baddies,  an ocean at the end of the silt sea, complete with talking sea turtles (making that one up by the way,  just incase..) and the plots of a lifetime.. I don't want to know that stuff. And please refrain from giving away IC info about recent characters as well. As innocent as it may sound to you… My character may have known yours.. My character may have not known what happened to yours.  

Anyway, I didn't want to head off on a rant, but please realize that when you post things, other people may actually want to read them and some of those people enjoy the mystery and surprises that await them in the game.  I am one of those people. Please don't read me the last page of my book for me, I have been waiting a very long time to find out how it ends.. The hard way...

[ShaLeah]

I like the GDB as a discussion forum.  I don't like it when I come around and see discussion of code mechanics, people saying they know who X's character is, people letting slip stuff about the magick system, people letting slip the IC name for this or that,  people trying to show how much they know by obscure references, half letting something slip,  thinking no one will be able to figure out what they are refering to, etc.

Well said.  I'm not sure if Twilight feels like I but there is so much of that that I thought it should be discussed. I'm not saying that the GDB is the root of all evil or that I don't like it. I do know that there are other, worse spoilers of IC information... IRC, AIM, MSN, ICQ. My biggest concern is something that Twilight said.

There is a line that should not be crossed.  Where this line is has shifted over the years.  I would say it is fairly liberal right now.

This discussion was started to see if any people thought the same as I did. It seems I am not alone in this.

[Bestatte]

I'd like to reiterate something that I've already said in my previous posts.

I am -not- advocating that people allow others to post IC information of any sort on the GDB. I am -not- condoning the sharing of IC information through OOC means.

What I'm trying to say, is that some people (often newcomers to the game but not always) will experience something in the game that they don't realize, or understand, is IC info. And they will post about it in their ignorance. What I'm trying to say, is that people lighten up on those who make that kind of mistake, because afterall, they're sometimes (as in with the magick stuff) only trying to figure out what you, the player, already know through past experiences and that your own character probably doesn't know anything about.

And no ERS, it doesn't spoil things for me AT ALL to learn stuff outside the game. Outside info is like a whole nother story, completely unrelated to my game playing even if my own character is involved. So if I learn something "through the grapevine" or on the GDB that my character shouldn't know about, then my character doesn't know about it. And it in no way lessens my enjoyment of my character's discovering it through RP.

I don't mean to imply that everyone should be like that, or that everyone is like that. But I'm just saying that people make mistakes on the GDB, and I think it's unfair for those who -know- it's IC - because they already know the "secret" - to be so harsh on people who make the mistakes.

[Twilight]

I see a couple of trends, not necessarily in this thread, but overall.

IC things that happened a long time ago are okay to discuss.
and
Little IC things are okay to discuss.

Why is this bad?  Do you have a fair idea of why Tuluk fell?  Or what happened to Red Storm?  Seems to me those secrets are greatly cheapened when you get a fair idea on the GDB.  Sure, they were important events, but it seems to me not everyone should know, even OOC'ly, even a hint as to what caused them.

Would you really want to learn here why Luirs is as it currently is?  Now, or even a few years from now?  What if the Fall of Tuluk and thing that happened to Red Storm were somehow tied to Luirs?  What if OOC'ly finding out about the first two mean you figured out the third?  I'm not saying they are, just using those as seemingly well known examples.

Plots can run a long time here, especially the ones that really impact the world.

[Bestatte]

The logic fails, Twilight, because you are using examples of things that all city-dwelling people would have at least SOME understanding of.

All Tuluki citizens know why Tuluk fell, from a northerner's bias of the situation. The youngsters are taught this at an early age, there are scenes painted in and on buildings that reflect it, the walls of the old city stand in testimony to the event, and there exist people who live, who were alive then, who can and do still talk about it.

It is documented on the website in the public-viewing area and in fact is documented in the "What your Character should Know" section on the newbie guide.

If you don't want your character to know this information, then don't RP your character knowing it. If you are incapable of separating what you know through OOC means, from what your character can/does/should know, then the problem isn't with the dissemenation of IC information. It's with you being untrustworthy.

edited to add: Remember, your brand new character isn't falling off a turnip wagon or being "born in an alley" at the ripe old age of 20 upon the first log in. Your character has lived however many years he's lived and has experienced his childhood, complete with having learned things about his surroundings and world-changing events. He might not know every detail, or be able to name names, but he would -certainly- know that there's some little place between north and south that got surrounded and taken over by mean nasty insectoid mantis-type creatures in the past decade.

[Sanvean]

The line has indeed shifted over the years; I'm not sure you can ascribe a good or bad quality to the change.

When I started playing Armageddon, OOC chatter was a lot more frowned upon. Admitting that you knew another Armageddon player immediately led to suspicions of player collusion from the staff. When several people put up a room in another mud in order to chat about the game - not exchange secrets, but just chat  - the staff wrote threatening email about banning everyone involved.  

ISCA (a bbs) was pretty much the gathering place for people, and there wasn't a list of all the Arm players - you had to piece it together through reading the Mudding forum and looking at posts and profiles. This is the atmosphere in which the Thanas plot was spoiled - having seen that incident from the periphery, I'm well aware what a cool plotline it was and how easy it was for careless talk to ruin it.

At the same time there were several little in-groups (this is said from an outsider perspective, so take it with a grain of salt), such as the Blackwing, the gypsies, etc, who got to play on Sundays, which were "Quest Days". Only people with the staff stamp of approval got to play those days. Many of these little groups had their own docs; a certain organization who shall remain nameless, for instance, had published all the spell and skill trees on the web at one point, and caused scandal and talk until they came down.

Nowadays, it's a different sort of social arrangement. For one thing there are (imo) more RL friendships. There's some Arm people on my Christmas card; I'm married to another. And with that move towards increased openness comes problems. People like to say who they play; they like to swap stories. This is a normal human instinct and (imo) it's one of the main drives behind the APM.  

This does mean that instead of the model of a harsh and angry staff perpetually looking for cheating players, there is a model where the players are self-policing for the most part. I know there are still groups out there exchanging information; certainly I get plenty of tattles and forwarded email, or other clues appear. But people also lie and gossip and do other human things which are, imo, pretty unpreventable.

For the most part, I think we've got a pretty good system, with only a few pockets of OOC corruption here and there, and it's certainly a much more pleasant atmosphere. When we relaxed the "no free emails" rule, we were aware of the problems that would cause but figured the trade-off was worth it in order to keep the playerbase at a healthy level.

I'm more laissez-faire than some past staff, mainly because I'd rather mess around fiddling with aspects of the game than zorching characters or answering aggrieved emails about how player Z is really truly sure player Y is cheating.  If I had my druthers, no one would know who plays any other character, but I have no way of enforcing that.

The rule of thumb with the GDB is, imo, use a grain of common sense when posting. Are you describing something most players would not have seen? Is it something which would be cooler if you learn it in game rather than being told on the board? Is it going to cause a problem that will result in an email Sanvean will have to answer? Maybe you might want to reword it then. Common sense goes a long, long way.

[John]

I wouldn't be able to have fun in that system. Unlike some players, I get a lot more enjoyment from finding out stuff ICly then I get from finding it out OOCly.

I'd lose my main motivation to playing.

[Medena]

A certain kind of magicker can summon a certain kind of thing. And this is in the docs.

That was something I'd really have preferred finding out IC.  No, it doesn't ruin any plots and it's not going to change how any of my PC's act and no, it doesn't give me any advantage IC to know this.  I don't care if it -is- in the docs though.  I simply would rather have found this out IC so then I could go "OOoh!  How cool!"

--Medena

[X-D]

Can or could at the time?
But, really? There are people who don't read the docs so they can be suprised? Probly why there are so many chars in game who know nothing about the world they grew up in, shrug.

Sorry, if I find it rather amazing that people who have played for more then a week have not read the basic docs, hell, on saturdays I reread them and I've been around for a lot longer then a week.

[My 2 sids]

I'm not going to say that telling everything is all right; I remember when I was told OOCly about someone's death the moment after they died.  However, I'm fine with the current amount of IC information.  To me, it just isn't that big of deal.  

When my PC dies, I will say that noone has seen them around. Which leaves you to wonder, Am I on vacation? or am I dead? Who knows.

I always find a bit of humor in this.  The fact is, it might be IC for your character to know if someone is dead.  How is it that we find no problem in our PCs doing the dishes, running errands, and living day to day lives when we are not logged in, but find it absurd that these same PCs would not continue to look for, worry about, try to get information on, some of their dearest friends/co-workers/family?   After a while I think the PC would notice or find something out.  Same as if you are from an area, you'll it's background and many of the public figures.  You'll even know where the grocery store is and where to buy water.

Now you have a new player who gets stuck in the middle of this puzzle. He's never gone through it before and he HATES puzzles. He's really bad at them, and all he wants to do is get the fuck out and grab a beer at the local tavern. He's pressed for time, he wants to log out and not show up tomorrrow morning with an empty player base to a puzzle he can't get IC help with.

I agree.  The fact is the playerbase is a bit more diverse than what some would like to think.  I'll admit, I'm one of these players.  I'm a "big picture" type and nothing frustrates me more than having to sit down and relax by doing complicated plot-line puzzles given small details.

Most of the folks who play this game do so for the roleplay, and so I feel that perhaps a median of trust might be alotted your fellow roleplayers, especially those who you simply do not really know. I think that sometimes we assume the worst, without considering that maybe it simply is not that bad.

I dont see a problem with sharing stories about characters who are no longer alive, as long as they dont contain information about the magick system, or the likes. These stories attract new players. Keep everything to yourselves, and they will never know what there is to discover, and give up in frustration instead of looking forward to the richness they can get themselves involved in.

These quotes show a growing trend in the playerbase... we need to use that to our advantage, not try to destroy it.I guess my biggest problem is this... not how much IC information is shared OOCly, but how hostile players can be to each other.  A lot of this "new" IC information being shared is coming from new players.  But instead of rejoicing at the fact that a new player is taking the time to ask questions... to think... to play the game, and then quietly suggesting their posts might not be ok...  We quote them in rants like this one, belittling them on what was probably an honest mistake.  

Signed,
One who knows This is not the old GDB.  This is not the old game.  These are not the old players.