The amount of IC information shared on the GDB.

[Bestatte]

The only reason I am still here is becuase there isn't some IC spoilers thread. If one were to crop up I am near-certain that the game would degrade to something I would rather not be a part of. I would probably quit playing.

Arm is great becuase of the mystery, not only that, but it is a major part of it. Take the mystery away and all you have is code.

I agree with the idea. I don't understand the reason you give for it though Dan.

You've been playing awhile now. You already know some of those mysteries and secrets that other players might not know about. Does knowing these things spoil your game play when you create a new character? Do you refuse to participate in any RP that involves your character doing something for the first time, that you already know about through previous character play?

Again - I think spoilers and IC info can certainly hurt the game. But not JUST because they're spoilers and IC info. Instead, it's because some people use this info unfairly. And those are the types of people who would abuse the info no matter where it came from, whether a GDB thread, or PMs, or IRC, or just having experienced these things with previous characters.

And again - I still don't think anyone should expect the game to allow _intentional_ spoilers to be provided. I just would rather people be more understanding when someone fucks up.

[EvilRoeSlade]

You've been playing awhile now. You already know some of those mysteries and secrets that other players might not know about. Does knowing these things spoil your game play when you create a new character? Do you refuse to participate in any RP that involves your character doing something for the first time, that you already know about through previous character play?

I've been playing for a while as well, possibly longer than Dan.  I've even played a templar where I learned a lot of stuff that an ordinary character would never find out, but I still don't know every bit of IC info regarding the game.  In fact, just yesterday I discovered a secret place that I've never been to before.

If somebody told me the ending to the movie that I wanted to see, then I'd still see that movie.  But I'd beat the shit out of the idiot who told me the ending.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I realize that some players, especially when they're new, won't really appreciate the importance and significance of discovering things on their own. That said, what is the difference between my knowing about secret places in certain areas, because a previous character of mine discovered them, and someone whose previous character never discovered them being told about them?

Once you as a player know something, you know it. You can't UNknow it. It's your responsibility to determine whether or not your current character knows what you (the player) know. I feel it's the same with being -told- about things through OOC means by other people. No matter how you learned about something, it's still your responsibility to make sure your character knows only what your character -should- know.

You're missing a crucial period, which is the point when you discover it.  Afterwards, it doesn't matter how you discover it, but at the time it is far more fulfilling to actually discover it with your character than to discover it with the GDB.

Now, you have a veteran who's had 3 characters solve this puzzle already. His PLAYER knows the answer to this puzzle, so when his 4th character shows up, he knows that he can decide whether or not his PC will solve it or not, how easy or difficult it will be for his PC to solve it, and in essence he is in complete control over the outcome. All because - he knows IC information that his PC is oblivious to.

I'm sure that in Armageddon puzzle solving doesn't come up often enough to be an issue, but I'll humor you regardless.  I have only played a single bard, but not for lack of desire.  I've thought of dozens of concepts for bards but I haven't applied for them simply because of the fact that I suck at making up songs.  I think that in the end, what people are good at and what they aren't are always going to influence what kind of characters they play.  Nothing can be done about it, and even if it could, it isn't a problem.

Now you have a new player who gets stuck in the middle of this puzzle. He's never gone through it before and he HATES puzzles. He's really bad at them, and all he wants to do is get the fuck out and grab a beer at the local tavern. He's pressed for time, he wants to log out and not show up tomorrrow morning with an empty player base to a puzzle he can't get IC help with.

Are you attempting to equate giving a newbie IC information with helping them?  If so, I strongly disagree with you.  Somebody starting out in Arm doesn't need to know ANY IC-sensitive information to start playing.  Telling them where they can buy food is fine, but telling them what a magicker can do just because they are curious, or telling them something about Steinal that isn't in the helpfile isn't.

I'm not suggesting that answers be provided. I think that would be the "wrong" way to solve this issue. What I am suggesting is that people try to take into consideration that many of you - and sure me too - already know this stuff. We have already solved our puzzles, we can sit smugly in our computer chairs and snicker when the newbie struggles, and yell at him when he asks WTF he should do to get out of the puzzle.

I'll say again that your example has absolutely no relevance to the game and if you're attempting to hint at some sort of an analogy to something else, you've unfortunately left me clueless.  Perhaps you can come up with a better example?

[sarahjc]

I take great joy in finding things out IC. I am also by nature a very curious person. Something like a spoiler threat would absolutely kill the game for me. Also one of the thing that Arm prides itself on is its secretes. Some that are -extremely- well kept.. Others not so. As a new player there is still an entire world of stuff that I want to know, but really want to find out myself.  I have read almost all the doc's, the short stories, even the songs and poems off the site and some of the stories that are given here. These all give a small peek into the world.. Just a taste to send you off to say.. I really want to know about that.. So my next Character will be a "blankedy Blank, blank". And my goal is this..  This is enough for me, I don't need more and speaking as newbie just slightly past the new stage, this is all I really do need. When I stumble on posts that give me more than I need to know, I feel a bit cheated that I wasn't allowed to find that out myself. Many of the Magic posts do that to me.

One thing that I think could help that is having a Magic's forum.. and maybe let that be only for the people that have that kind of Karma.

1. It would keep those kinds of questions corralled into a place that can be easily monitored.
2. Prevent those of us who shouldn't know that sort of thing from getting that info by mistake
3. It would offer a forum for people that understand the magic system and people that are just learning it to find and offer help.

The way I see it, if you have trusted them to use the magic system, you can probably trust them to ask and answer questions about it responsibly.  If not. You can kick them out of the forum.

As for the rest,  I think you can tell a story, or share a funny moment without giving things away. If people have questions about the logistics of things.. Those can be handled in game here sure, we even have the wonderful and very helpful Helper staff. But secrete passages, finding weird looking baddies,  an ocean at the end of the silt sea, complete with talking sea turtles (making that one up by the way,  just incase..) and the plots of a lifetime.. I don't want to know that stuff. And please refrain from giving away IC info about recent characters as well. As innocent as it may sound to you… My character may have known yours.. My character may have not known what happened to yours.  

Anyway, I didn't want to head off on a rant, but please realize that when you post things, other people may actually want to read them and some of those people enjoy the mystery and surprises that await them in the game.  I am one of those people. Please don't read me the last page of my book for me, I have been waiting a very long time to find out how it ends.. The hard way...

[ShaLeah]

I like the GDB as a discussion forum.  I don't like it when I come around and see discussion of code mechanics, people saying they know who X's character is, people letting slip stuff about the magick system, people letting slip the IC name for this or that,  people trying to show how much they know by obscure references, half letting something slip,  thinking no one will be able to figure out what they are refering to, etc.

Well said.  I'm not sure if Twilight feels like I but there is so much of that that I thought it should be discussed. I'm not saying that the GDB is the root of all evil or that I don't like it. I do know that there are other, worse spoilers of IC information... IRC, AIM, MSN, ICQ. My biggest concern is something that Twilight said.

There is a line that should not be crossed.  Where this line is has shifted over the years.  I would say it is fairly liberal right now.

This discussion was started to see if any people thought the same as I did. It seems I am not alone in this.

[Bestatte]

I'd like to reiterate something that I've already said in my previous posts.

I am -not- advocating that people allow others to post IC information of any sort on the GDB. I am -not- condoning the sharing of IC information through OOC means.

What I'm trying to say, is that some people (often newcomers to the game but not always) will experience something in the game that they don't realize, or understand, is IC info. And they will post about it in their ignorance. What I'm trying to say, is that people lighten up on those who make that kind of mistake, because afterall, they're sometimes (as in with the magick stuff) only trying to figure out what you, the player, already know through past experiences and that your own character probably doesn't know anything about.

And no ERS, it doesn't spoil things for me AT ALL to learn stuff outside the game. Outside info is like a whole nother story, completely unrelated to my game playing even if my own character is involved. So if I learn something "through the grapevine" or on the GDB that my character shouldn't know about, then my character doesn't know about it. And it in no way lessens my enjoyment of my character's discovering it through RP.

I don't mean to imply that everyone should be like that, or that everyone is like that. But I'm just saying that people make mistakes on the GDB, and I think it's unfair for those who -know- it's IC - because they already know the "secret" - to be so harsh on people who make the mistakes.

[Twilight]

I see a couple of trends, not necessarily in this thread, but overall.

IC things that happened a long time ago are okay to discuss.
and
Little IC things are okay to discuss.

Why is this bad?  Do you have a fair idea of why Tuluk fell?  Or what happened to Red Storm?  Seems to me those secrets are greatly cheapened when you get a fair idea on the GDB.  Sure, they were important events, but it seems to me not everyone should know, even OOC'ly, even a hint as to what caused them.

Would you really want to learn here why Luirs is as it currently is?  Now, or even a few years from now?  What if the Fall of Tuluk and thing that happened to Red Storm were somehow tied to Luirs?  What if OOC'ly finding out about the first two mean you figured out the third?  I'm not saying they are, just using those as seemingly well known examples.

Plots can run a long time here, especially the ones that really impact the world.

[Bestatte]

The logic fails, Twilight, because you are using examples of things that all city-dwelling people would have at least SOME understanding of.

All Tuluki citizens know why Tuluk fell, from a northerner's bias of the situation. The youngsters are taught this at an early age, there are scenes painted in and on buildings that reflect it, the walls of the old city stand in testimony to the event, and there exist people who live, who were alive then, who can and do still talk about it.

It is documented on the website in the public-viewing area and in fact is documented in the "What your Character should Know" section on the newbie guide.

If you don't want your character to know this information, then don't RP your character knowing it. If you are incapable of separating what you know through OOC means, from what your character can/does/should know, then the problem isn't with the dissemenation of IC information. It's with you being untrustworthy.

edited to add: Remember, your brand new character isn't falling off a turnip wagon or being "born in an alley" at the ripe old age of 20 upon the first log in. Your character has lived however many years he's lived and has experienced his childhood, complete with having learned things about his surroundings and world-changing events. He might not know every detail, or be able to name names, but he would -certainly- know that there's some little place between north and south that got surrounded and taken over by mean nasty insectoid mantis-type creatures in the past decade.

[Sanvean]

The line has indeed shifted over the years; I'm not sure you can ascribe a good or bad quality to the change.

When I started playing Armageddon, OOC chatter was a lot more frowned upon. Admitting that you knew another Armageddon player immediately led to suspicions of player collusion from the staff. When several people put up a room in another mud in order to chat about the game - not exchange secrets, but just chat  - the staff wrote threatening email about banning everyone involved.  

ISCA (a bbs) was pretty much the gathering place for people, and there wasn't a list of all the Arm players - you had to piece it together through reading the Mudding forum and looking at posts and profiles. This is the atmosphere in which the Thanas plot was spoiled - having seen that incident from the periphery, I'm well aware what a cool plotline it was and how easy it was for careless talk to ruin it.

At the same time there were several little in-groups (this is said from an outsider perspective, so take it with a grain of salt), such as the Blackwing, the gypsies, etc, who got to play on Sundays, which were "Quest Days". Only people with the staff stamp of approval got to play those days. Many of these little groups had their own docs; a certain organization who shall remain nameless, for instance, had published all the spell and skill trees on the web at one point, and caused scandal and talk until they came down.

Nowadays, it's a different sort of social arrangement. For one thing there are (imo) more RL friendships. There's some Arm people on my Christmas card; I'm married to another. And with that move towards increased openness comes problems. People like to say who they play; they like to swap stories. This is a normal human instinct and (imo) it's one of the main drives behind the APM.  

This does mean that instead of the model of a harsh and angry staff perpetually looking for cheating players, there is a model where the players are self-policing for the most part. I know there are still groups out there exchanging information; certainly I get plenty of tattles and forwarded email, or other clues appear. But people also lie and gossip and do other human things which are, imo, pretty unpreventable.

For the most part, I think we've got a pretty good system, with only a few pockets of OOC corruption here and there, and it's certainly a much more pleasant atmosphere. When we relaxed the "no free emails" rule, we were aware of the problems that would cause but figured the trade-off was worth it in order to keep the playerbase at a healthy level.

I'm more laissez-faire than some past staff, mainly because I'd rather mess around fiddling with aspects of the game than zorching characters or answering aggrieved emails about how player Z is really truly sure player Y is cheating.  If I had my druthers, no one would know who plays any other character, but I have no way of enforcing that.

The rule of thumb with the GDB is, imo, use a grain of common sense when posting. Are you describing something most players would not have seen? Is it something which would be cooler if you learn it in game rather than being told on the board? Is it going to cause a problem that will result in an email Sanvean will have to answer? Maybe you might want to reword it then. Common sense goes a long, long way.

[John]

I wouldn't be able to have fun in that system. Unlike some players, I get a lot more enjoyment from finding out stuff ICly then I get from finding it out OOCly.

I'd lose my main motivation to playing.

[Medena]

A certain kind of magicker can summon a certain kind of thing. And this is in the docs.

That was something I'd really have preferred finding out IC.  No, it doesn't ruin any plots and it's not going to change how any of my PC's act and no, it doesn't give me any advantage IC to know this.  I don't care if it -is- in the docs though.  I simply would rather have found this out IC so then I could go "OOoh!  How cool!"

--Medena

[X-D]

Can or could at the time?
But, really? There are people who don't read the docs so they can be suprised? Probly why there are so many chars in game who know nothing about the world they grew up in, shrug.

Sorry, if I find it rather amazing that people who have played for more then a week have not read the basic docs, hell, on saturdays I reread them and I've been around for a lot longer then a week.

[My 2 sids]

I'm not going to say that telling everything is all right; I remember when I was told OOCly about someone's death the moment after they died.  However, I'm fine with the current amount of IC information.  To me, it just isn't that big of deal.  

When my PC dies, I will say that noone has seen them around. Which leaves you to wonder, Am I on vacation? or am I dead? Who knows.

I always find a bit of humor in this.  The fact is, it might be IC for your character to know if someone is dead.  How is it that we find no problem in our PCs doing the dishes, running errands, and living day to day lives when we are not logged in, but find it absurd that these same PCs would not continue to look for, worry about, try to get information on, some of their dearest friends/co-workers/family?   After a while I think the PC would notice or find something out.  Same as if you are from an area, you'll it's background and many of the public figures.  You'll even know where the grocery store is and where to buy water.

Now you have a new player who gets stuck in the middle of this puzzle. He's never gone through it before and he HATES puzzles. He's really bad at them, and all he wants to do is get the fuck out and grab a beer at the local tavern. He's pressed for time, he wants to log out and not show up tomorrrow morning with an empty player base to a puzzle he can't get IC help with.

I agree.  The fact is the playerbase is a bit more diverse than what some would like to think.  I'll admit, I'm one of these players.  I'm a "big picture" type and nothing frustrates me more than having to sit down and relax by doing complicated plot-line puzzles given small details.

Most of the folks who play this game do so for the roleplay, and so I feel that perhaps a median of trust might be alotted your fellow roleplayers, especially those who you simply do not really know. I think that sometimes we assume the worst, without considering that maybe it simply is not that bad.

I dont see a problem with sharing stories about characters who are no longer alive, as long as they dont contain information about the magick system, or the likes. These stories attract new players. Keep everything to yourselves, and they will never know what there is to discover, and give up in frustration instead of looking forward to the richness they can get themselves involved in.

These quotes show a growing trend in the playerbase... we need to use that to our advantage, not try to destroy it.I guess my biggest problem is this... not how much IC information is shared OOCly, but how hostile players can be to each other.  A lot of this "new" IC information being shared is coming from new players.  But instead of rejoicing at the fact that a new player is taking the time to ask questions... to think... to play the game, and then quietly suggesting their posts might not be ok...  We quote them in rants like this one, belittling them on what was probably an honest mistake.  

Signed,
One who knows This is not the old GDB.  This is not the old game.  These are not the old players.