Question on gender for staff and players

[Comrade Canadia]

This was originally gonna be just for staff because I -REALLY- want their 'official' opinions... but hey, I want player opinions too!  Also, keep in mind with this that although this is a criticism of the mud, it's also one that I ascribe to pretty much ANY roleplay world.  Armag is simply the convenient one for me to start on.  

Now.  Ideally, armag is a sort of gender-neutral place from what I've gathered.  Men and women are equal statistically and socially, and as such, nasty issues like sexual discrimination aren't an issue.  

Of course, this is not the case.  I've played the mud (off and on) for around eight years now, and constantly see gender lines and barriers which make the supposed equality of men and women on the mud artificial.   Sure, they can all hold the same jobs... but the underlying attidues are still all there.  A great example is the way that powerful, self-made female PCs are treated.  They're HATED - way more than powerful, self-made male PCs.  Has anybody ever accused a powerful male PC of sleeping his way to the top?

Going beyond that, if the genders were truly equal.. wouldn't the idea of gender as we know it actually not even -exist-?!  If people don't differentiate between man and woman, then ascribing certain gender roles to them would never have happened in the first place.  And then, concepts like marriage, sexuality (if there's no social difference between a man and a woman, how can you be gay?), even monogamy.  Deviations from our classic North American values are accepted and encouraged on the mud... but they're still deviations.  Being gay on armag is still treated like a perversion, just a perversion that many people are accept, support, or at least tolerate.  If someone is gay, the reaction is 'I'm okay with that' most of the time.  Being okay with it shouldn't be an ISSUE if there was true gender equality.

Hell, jumping back a bit in my convuluted rant...  promiscuity shouldn't even be an issue!  People seem to get irritated at PCs, especially female PCs, that sleep around.  Why?  Puritan, Christian values of a woman losing her virginity and staying with the same man her entire life don't APPLY to armag... but violating those values is considered bad.  Countless RL societies, often with different concepts of gender, have little issue with promiscuity.  Armag, on the other hand, seems to like to bandy the word 'slut' around.  

Hell!  Just on IRC someone commented that a male prostitute on armag would never make any money.  I disagree... but that very attitude speaks of serious gender difference going on here.  Beyond that, a male prostitute would be considered a hero among all men, with the greatest job on earth.  A female prostitute is a slut.  Only men are allowed to enjoy sex?  Anyways, I can go on... but I hope you see the point I'm trying to make here.

SO - my behind this long winded blathering is... what do you think about this?  Am I full of it or is this actually something worth discussing?  What should armag's conception of gender ACTUALLY be?  Or is how it works right now alright?  Can it even be changed?

Apologies in that this sort of picks up where another thread left off... but hey, it was getting long.  *grin*  Staffers, please, I'd LOVE to hear your opinions on my half-assed attempt at some feminist analysis.  Especially any of you who know your stuff better than I do on this topic.

-Der Comrade

[Bestatte]

It isn't that there are no differences between males and females in Zalanthas. There are -obvious- differences, in most cases. Males still have those protrusions sticking out from between their legs, women still have exaggerated mammaries. The male still carries the sperm which fertilizes the female's egg, the female still provides the breast milk.

It's not a gender-neutral thing. It's that males and females are supposedly -treated- equally, because both are equally capable of realizing the same goals, and both are equally capable of attaining the same results.

It's my belief - based purely on observation, that the reason females get such a bad rap is because some players of female characters choose to RP their characters in such a way that draws attention to their sexuality, blatantly and regularly. Even if the character is still a virgin - the one that behaves like a slattern will usually be thought of as a slattern. I think I've met up with two males who have behaved in this manner in my year+ of playing.

It's the delivery...men (again, in my observation - no theorizing, no facts) - might talk about getting laid, about the tits on that chick, about how horny they are, about how they once had six women in bed. In real life - talk is cheap, and you can just chalk it up to the male ego, and discount pretty much anything they say. In game, it can be the same, especially if the bragging male has a face full of sores, peeling lips, filthy armor, and reeks of latrine scum.

In my observation - the females who want to be the braggarts in the scenario look, dress, behave, and move like what they're bragging about. So they don't have to brag. They EXUDE sexuality. You walk in the bar and you can freaking smell it from across the room. They (THE CHARACTERS) are on the prowl. Either they're on the prowl, or they're coming back from an orgy. They don't have to say a word, because it reeks from every inch of their perfectly flawlessly described skin, their gorgeous silks or dainty linen slippers, or their sashaying hipmovements of their emotes.

In mud building (and in journalism) there's a saying: Show, don't tell. And that, I believe, is what's happening here. Females are showing. And showing, and showing, and shoving their showingness down everyone's throats. Males tell. No one gives a shit about the males telling, because telling means nothing. I could tell you I jumped off the empire state building and lived, and you would just laugh at me or snort or make fun of my childish need for attention.  But if I took you to NYC and jumped off the Empire State Building and lived, whew. Get the picture? (of course the men in the nice white coats would be at the bottom to pick me up, but that's another matter)

If you want to see more "equality" - less female bashing, or more male sluttiness, you need to change the players, because they're the ones making their characters do what they do.

[wizturbo]

Completely agree with Bestatte there.

I personally see nothing at all wrong with some of the female characters that exude sexuality, some players who do that are -amazingly- good at playing the seductress.

The problem I do see, is that so many, and I mean -so- many female characters are made to be pretty and act like they're pretty, and just from personal experience, pretty girls cause a lot of drama.  Men fight over them, people are jealous of them, there is a stereotype that their beauty makes a combative or labor related role unfitting...in medieval society, if your a really attractive woman you generally end up marrying someone to take care of you, and live off of your sexual "goods".  I said "generally" because I'm sure there are exceptions, but exceptions must prove themselves otherwise, because people stereotype.

Try making a scarred, broken-nosed scrawny woman, and I personally think you'll see a completely different reaction from the world around you.

These same stereotypes exist for male characters to a degree, I've experienced some of it myself with my current character.

[Bestatte]

To add to a comment from wizturbo, something that really strikes my funny bone...

I've seen - countless female characters who look positively gorgeous. Maybe a little tiny scar on their wrist, or callouses on their fingertips - but their fingers are slender and their wrists are delicate...the "poetry" of their descriptions implies that they are absolutely beautiful with no identifiable major wounds or scars or indentations or missing limbs...and these are hunters and warriors.

It just makes no sense at all. If you want to play the beautiful girl who all the men fight over, remember that the average warrior/hunter is NOT going to be flawless. They're gonna have some bumps and bruises and broken noses and bad knees and missing digits or limbs. Sensual women are great, and like wiz said, some players roleplay sensual women beautifully.  But sensuality isn't gonna save your ass (or that perky perfect nose) from a raptor.

[Sandferret]

Disclaimer: The following is one person's view and may suffer from not understanding the finest nuances of the English language. Nothing stated is meant to offend anyone.

Thoughts on the gender questions:

There is a lot of transfer of values in the game, it is almost impossible to avoid it. We can only try.

It is true that I have never heard a male accused of sleeping his way to the top. But I did meet this prejudice when playing a female in 'mid-management'. The poor girl, who was constantly being called slut and whore, was not able to even find someone to kiss her for several IC years. Some of the males she liked indicated that if she was their equal, things would be different. This prejudice certainly exists.

Of course gender exists. Equal does not equal homogenous. Women and men are different in subtle ways (not talking about the classical 'difference').  Both are perfectly capable to do the job, though their methods may vary.

As for homosexuality, it has been established that an approximate 10% of the population is homosexual. It is deviant from the norm. What is different is that there is no prejudice attached to it, something our society may not reach for some decades still. It is certainly not a perversion, just a personal taste. Being attracted to one's own sex only is no more odd than being attracted to only red-haired people. Probably less, really.

Heterosexuality is a requirement for the preservation of the species, therefore it will likely be predominant trait. Personally, what I would like to see (not literally) is far more bi-sexuality.

Marriages are formed for the sake of procreation in the circles where heritage matters. As well as 'life companionship' between two people. The latter being informal and voluntary, even fragile. It  would be great to see a couple, committed to each other, but with no sexual jealousy. That is hard though, for it requires solid trust in that the other partner will not find someone 'better'.

A prostitute is not a 'slut', whether female or male. Nor do I think it would be glamorous, save for the handful lucky ones who find a wealthy patron or patrons. It is a service offered. A job. Honest work.

Some things should be different. Can they be corrected? Yes, slowly. Next time someone comments on one of these things in a 'Western' way, ask them why they think that. Express that you find their thoughts unusual and discuss why. There is always the chance that that particular PC has a reason for the comment. Whatever else, it certainly provides you both some interesting RP.

[Krath]

Good Post. Well thought out.

[wizturbo]

Yup!

Its a harsh world ladies.  Dont be afraid to scar yourselves up, its realistic.  It doesn't mean you have to be grotesque from so much physical injury, but the ones with flawless skin, dainty figures and long well-kept hair should be reserved for those who live a lifestyle that reflects that, and such lifestyles are quite rare.

[Petra]

A great example is the way that powerful, self-made female PCs are treated. They're HATED - way more than powerful, self-made male PCs. Has anybody ever accused a powerful male PC of sleeping his way to the top?

Honestly though I think some of this concept is a myth.  The way I see it Armageddon is a very harsh climate.  For girls (and boys) who want to make Arm their little Cabbage Patch or Barbie Doll House (and believe me, plenty of them do!) I can only think to suggest they go play a high fantasy MUSH.  The women who climb to power in Arm, from what I have seen, have a tendancy to be more ... girlie.  It's not their gender that makes them despised, it's their role.  I guarantee you when the next Thrain Ironsword shows up, if it's a female, no one will so much as blink.  But I don't care what sex you are, if you're playing the overdone scenario of "sleeping to the top" expect a heavy dose of both IC and OOC spite.  I'm telling you, gender has nothing to do with it, it's the role that these people make -- it just so happens usually females fill one type of role and males another.

[Petra]

Hell, jumping back a bit in my convuluted rant... promiscuity shouldn't even be an issue! People seem to get irritated at PCs, especially female PCs, that sleep around. Why? Puritan, Christian values of a woman losing her virginity and staying with the same man her entire life don't APPLY to armag... but violating those values is considered bad. Countless RL societies, often with different concepts of gender, have little issue with promiscuity. Armag, on the other hand, seems to like to bandy the word 'slut' around.

Christianity is not the only faith which holds the belief that a woman or man who sleeps around is a slut.  Countless RL societies, often with different concepts of gender, DO have issues with promiscuity.  Take the Middle East, for example, an environment perhaps not all that unlike Zalanthas.  You go see the difference in culture over there and how it affects women and then we'll talk .  I don't like using Medieval Europe as the only source of world history to compare Arm with.  What's more, you'll never get the mass of Arm's players to abandon their western perceptions, no matter how hard you try.  It's innevitable.

[Seeker]

I'm sorry, but I just don't see this much in game.  I read about it ad nauseum on the GBD, though.

My PC interacts with males and females, powerful and less powerful characters all the time, and I rarely see, in game, the type of cattiness and name calling described.

I think either I am not, thankfully, included in the right gossip circles IG, or that this is something that exists primarly in the player's OOC communities.

If someone wants to play a dainty taste-treat for their PC, more power to 'em.  I just have to play my -own- character true to form.


Seeker

[EvilRoeSlade]

Does it not say in the documentation that if you find dual wielding two large weapons unrealistic, then don't do it yourself, but don't criticize other people who are doing it either?

It annoys me, those flawlessly beautiful women with jobs requiring heavy manual labor and intense combat, where their looks simply would not survive.  But I've never made a flawlessly beautiful hunter myself.  I don't berate those who do OOCly, even if I don't agree with it.

That said, my brutally-scarred guard certainly won't respect that flawless guard of either sex, all questions of gender equality aside.  What else am I to do?  It happens too often for me to decide that they are either magickers or benefitting from magickers.  And I have no place to express my distress to them OOCly.

Petra, you are wrong.  Very wrong.  The attitudes of the MUD can change, unless you and others like you stubbornly cling to ideas that have no place on Zalanthas despite all reasoning.

[Prissy Girl]

Part of the good thing about people assuming that a female character has slept their way to the top is they also assume that they are dumb as a box of rocks and blind to boot.

So, go ahead, I say.  Hate and gossip and assume my females are little waifs that couldn't manage a thing if not for their powerful male protectors. Feel free to continue to allow OOC perceptions and morality to color your game play, or to fail to think in the layers and layers that are the hallmark of -any- succesful leader character, whether they look like Nicole Kidman, Brad Pitt or a gortok on steroids. Its not my game play you'll be ruining, its your own.  My character will just sigh, shake her head and grind her delicate little heel into your corpse's forehead as she walks away.

[Krath]

I agree with EvilRoe...I was typing in a post but read his and decided it covered exactly how I felt.

[Bestatte]

Prissy Girl, it's not that characters like yours exist. Characters like yours are GREAT, and I say go for it, with every inch of your stiletto heels.

My issue with it is that there's just so many of you. Not you - personally - but that general character type. It's like..every new female character I meet these days, who is either elven or human, attempts to be JUST LIKE THAT.

They all want to be the "femme fatal" type who pretends to be some lovely bauble yet actually has a brain and isn't afraid to wield it.

This only goes for humans and elves, with the occasional half-elf tossed in. And yes, it is almost always female. Not always, just almost always.

I want to see more sexually ambiguous females. I want to see more disinterested females. I want to see more sexually hideous females. I want to see more females who you'd look at and say "Blech - who would ever want that?" I want to see more females behaving like these "equals" - meaning, more of a variety of types. The reason there is this stereotype, is because so many players feed it by creating the stereotype with their own characters. That is my opinion, based on my own observation.

I love seeing a well-played human female who has no particular interest in having a relationship, or many relationships, but instead might allow themselves to have one as a PART of their overall personality. I just don't see much of it in new female human/elven/half-elven characters lately. They're almost all very pretty, and almost all interested in being flirtateous, and almost all giggle, and almost all want to wear pretty silks or pretty sandcloth or pretty jewelry, and a healthy number of them get pregnant and emote having babies until their character has to go out hunting and then they conveniently forget their babies even exist. You add all that up, and you get the stereotype, and a perfectly reasonable explanation as to why some people make a fuss about it.

It's not the majority of female characters, not by a longshot. But I have noticed a trend in newer female characters. Are they new players? Some, yes. Some, definitely not, and some, I don't know. But it is definitely a trend that I've seen.

[Prissy Girl]

While I do think a majority of the newer characters with 'perfect' descriptions are indeed brand new players who will likely get it a bit more with subsequent characters, I think that is an issue that's been beaten to death.  I think that Comrade Canadia made this thread specifically to address characters that had actually already achieved a measure of power.  I'd hate to see it denegrate into the same old thread about f-me PCs all over again.

[Anarchy]

Maybe a little tiny scar on their wrist, or callouses on their fingertips - but their fingers are slender and their wrists are delicate...
.

I have noticed that, and i always end up saying to myself "What the hell?" - flawless skin with scars on their wrists, oh well, even being pretty in the game world has its stressful-want-to-end-it-all-moments, hmm?

Snide comment aside, it is how the PLAYER plays the PC. I do not have much inside view to this as i play elves more then humans, but the two humans i have played, i never got a problem with, maybe becauses i put very little detail into their breasts waist and ass, or maybe its because i didn't allow people to have the chance to made snide comments about her, i'd bite back very quickly.

And thats how it boils down, if you let someone roll over you, male or female, they are going to do it. Male players do not allow people to roll over them, while female players might yield, and in combat roles that can be seen as a sign of weakness - and then come the "She is only there because she had sex with the captain...and all the other officers." - because she has shown a "weakness" You have to think primal, to quote a perfect example....

You beat Nicky with fists he comes back with a bat. You beat him with a knife, he comes back with a gun. And if you beat him with a gun you better kill him, because he'll keep comin' back, and back, until one of you is dead.

And that how its gotta be in order for you not to get those snide she fucked her way up the ladder like a rabbit on heat.

And for those who are non-combat, well im afraid its somthing you will need to deal with, of course, it wont be as much as combat females since not many males take up jobs as aides, crafters merchents, what have you.

[Bestatte]

I think the point, Prissy, is that the reason these females are loathed is because everyone and their brother is trying to do it the same way.

Why beat the shit out of your superior to take his place, when you can just fuck him silly and he'll step aside and let you in?

To be fair, I guess I'd have to add some of the blame on the side of the male PCs who allow it to happen

Silly boys -

[Larrath]

I see the equality between sexes as the result of two things.

1) Reality is harsh; I do not think a man who spends over half of his entire day chopping away at obsidian or looking for salt under the enormous sun and is sweating and has worries from here to the Grey Forest is going to go: "Oh, that one is old/a female/cripple, why don't I stand up and let them rest?".  This is not going to happen, and unless you are a very comfortable and do not have to work very hard (which is maybe 5% of the population with all servants, higher-end mercs and guards, merchants, templars and nobles), and what they do or do not do is not going to change Average Amos.

2) Reality is harsh; a fact that means you have insane natural selection.  I am personally pretty certain that the average man will be stronger than the average woman, even if they both have balanced diets and work out and do the same things.  However, this may not be the case in Zalanthas.
A pretty face is a lot, but weakness means death, and not every female can be a prostitute.

Now, about players who drag their RL values to the game...I'm sad that it happens, but it does.  As they learn and evolve as roleplayers, they dislodge better and better their real feelings about the reality.  They eventually will learn, and yes, if you can point out, ICly, that what they think is NOT the norm, they might act differently next time.

Everyone has to learn, I do not think it is something someone should be upset about.  Instead of going "Dreck!  Those damned people are tainting my Zalanthas with their kankcrap!" try going through it on an RP level...almost every philosophical argument can be proven if you put your mind to it, at least to the point where most people would just accept it and move on, and this is twice as true for roleplaying games.  So, instead, try "Yay, I looked smart and now this player might learn better.  I _AM_ the Saviour!  Give me a cookie!".

Oh, and while I can personally think of some Arabian/Beduin motif to Zalanthas (one day I will learn their coffee rituals for this, maybe), especially with the clothing...the societies are so radically different that I do not think there is place for compare.

Actually, I just think it is best to not compare it to anything and just let it be its own thing.  This is Zalanthas and it is nothing else, now give me my kank back you slanteye gortok fucker before I cut down your ears and sell them.

[Anarchy]

To be fair, I guess I'd have to add some of the blame on the side of the male PCs who allow it to happen

Silly boys -

Dont blame the boys, we all know they have two brains, and between the two they only use 2% of it. Just lucky most of them, when they get big-headed dont faint.

[naatok]

Women have half the money and all the pussy.  So eventually, they're gonna have all the money!
                                  Paraphrased from Eddie Murphy

Simplistic as it is, that is not 'intirely' an innacurate statement.

On earth, social strategies differ between men and women due in largest part to the rise of the patriarchal, war-cult society.

Women on earth do not have the upper body strength that men do, and therefore were not, until the advent of percussion firearms, viable as warriors on the average.  Because of that, among other aspects of the patriarchal warrior cult, women were relegated to, at best, second-class citizenship.

Due to this, women learned to seek and gain political power through extremely subtle and sexually oriented means.

My question now is....would this same strategy proliferate on Zalanthas?
Please post your thoughts on this.

[jmordetsky]

What about a sort of Zalathan fact sheet for new players: (feel free to add or argue)

1)   Sexes have evolved in parallel. IE a male and female of the same race have the same potential mentally and physically. As a result of this equality the notion of sexism based on such abilities would be non-existent.  

2)   Huge differences exist between races, resulting in a lot of racism

3)   Due to the harshness of environment, having multiple reproductive partners would be a large benefit to the survival ones genes. As a result values such as monogamy would be largely played down.

4)   A PC's description should realistically depict his/her profession of choice. For example: Mercs should have scars, scribes should be pasty.

5)   Beauty is reflected by those few who are well fed, avoid the sun and are on the whole pampered.

6)   The lack of religious institutions demanding that homosexuality is an evil practice results in any form of homosexuality being a completely acceptable to the general populace of zalanthas.

[Petra]

I agree with Bestatte.  That kind of role gets quite predictable after a while.  I don't care how super shady secret underground and conniving you supposedly really are, it's still a fad, and whether OOC attacks on those roles are just or not, don't expect them to stop -- that's just the way some people are.  Like I said, the day a female Thrain Ironsword shows up you'll hear me cheer.  No matter how well played or super shady the next silk-clad prissy good-looking commoner who "has everyone wrapped around her finger" with her so-called "manipulation skills", I won't really be impressed.  It's just rarely fitting with the environment as far as I'm concerned and more popular than I believe it would happen in Zalanthas.  Over the years there have been countless identical noble house servant chicks who have climbed the rank to the point of near nobility and walked around with more NPC guards than an actual noble has.  It's just that they are such clones and it would be so refreshing to see a woman gain fame and power in a different way, perhaps as a warrior, for a change.  A couple have existed, of course, but boy are they rare!

[Anonymous]

Women on earth do not have the upper body strength that men do, and therefore were not, until the advent of percussion firearms, viable as warriors on the average.  Because of that, among other aspects of the patriarchal warrior cult, women were relegated to, at best, second-class citizenship.

Due to this, women learned to seek and gain political power through extremely subtle and sexually oriented means.

My question now is....would this same strategy proliferate on Zalanthas?
Please post your thoughts on this.

Yes.  Assuming the libidos are the same as their earthly counterparts.  Reason being, where there's a demand someone will step up to supply it.  If Zalanthan men think with their gonads as much as your typical earthbound male, there will always be females who take advantage of that weakness.

If, however, Zalanthan libidos are the same between the sexes, then there will just be a whole lot of screwing going on.

[jmordetsky]

Hmmm, equal or unequal libidos on zalanthas...interesting concept.

Biologists attribute the male libido to having evolved as result of reproductive benefit. Males have multiple sperm, therefore, donting multiple sperm to many eggs...increase the population and give the male a better chance of passing on it's genes.  

They also argue that a female has but one egg which can be fertilized and there for is more selective and will choose one male.

1 point unequal.

Though I've also heard a biologist say that the reason a male get tired after knocking boots and a female doesn't evolved out the need for a female to have another chance with another male at getting pregnant, thus in case male1's sperm army didn't get the job done.

1 point equal.

Women's libidos, I think, has also been repressed in our society... Which might say they would be the same on Zalanthas, since such constructs do not exist.

1 point equal.

Being that all physical aspects are equal, and the chances of dieing so high...people would need to reproduce in a hurry, and in large numbers.

1 point equal.


I'm leaning toward equal libidos.

[Quirk]

Where I have seen female characters take on combat leadership roles, I haven't noticed the respect given to them differing significantly from their male counterparts on the average. While I've known individual female leaders who have forfeited the respect of their subordinates, I've seen that happen with male leaders too and I would be very cautious of claiming that it's "because they're female". I've known some kick-ass female combat characters who demanded and got respect.

That point made, I'd argue that there are on the whole fewer female combat-oriented characters as a proportion of the total number of female characters in game than there are male ones. Sexual politics remain somewhat Earthlike - the males are usually the ones who take the initiative in attempting to start a relationship, and there are generally more opportunities for a female to try sleeping her way to the top than for a male to do so. Unless this changes, "equality" will remain something of a pipe dream.

In fairness it could also be said that male players are perhaps likely to be more assertive than females as a result of their own cultural upbringing, and this will make itself felt in game.

Quirk