Question on gender for staff and players

[John]

Has anybody ever accused a powerful male PC of sleeping his way to the top?

That's something none of my noble house servant males would hesitate to do.

Just on IRC someone commented that a male prostitute on armag would never make any money. I disagree...

I agree they wouldn't amongst the PC population. Why? Most PCs are males. Most play hetero-males who wouldn't think of banging a guy for a bit of fun.

Virtually, sure, they'd make as much money as a female whore. Code-wise. Doubt it.

I see some of it IG. I also know people who did talk about it on IMs.

It happens too often for me to decide that they are either magickers or benefitting from magickers.

That or they're incompotent at their job.

My question now is....would this same strategy proliferate on Zalanthas?

It would. But it wouldn't be predominant in any single sex. The docs say men and women are equally as strong, therefore they're equally as strong. Women don't need to rely on it as a gender. However there are also the weak and the lame. THEY'RE the ones who're going to take advantage of this method.

[Carnage]

Why you don't hear about men sleeping to the top: How many female characters in leadershipish positions are there?

As for genders and stereotypes, that's life. A woman doesn't equal a man. A man doesn't equal a woman. We've seen this all our lives, and practice it all the time. For an hour or two a day, we're supposed to be able to stop and put behind us something that has been with us for every day and moment of our lives?

Men and women are just different. Different habits, different hobbies, whatever. There's an exception or two, but there's a reason why this happens and it's not social stigma: genetic build. Men are more proned to certain things, just as women are. That's not sexism, it's evolution. In nature, what good is a mother that goes out and gets herself killed? No good. In mammals, she generally needs to produce and take care of her young. Otherwise it's difficult for the young to survive. Males, on the other hand, are disposable and can readily go out and get killed with no young to worry about.

I'll repeat, don't take this as a sexist post. I believe in equal rights for men and women, but I believe that each has a set disposition and instincts geared for different things. I disagree with its place in Zalanthas, where such instincts would be stronger in my opinion, but game law is game law.

[CindyLou]

About genders in players and characters: I'm in favor of them.

That is all.

[Storm]

Like I said, the day a female Thrain Ironsword shows up you'll hear me cheer.

The female version of Thrain Ironsword has lived and died. As has the female broken-nosed warrior - many times over.

Unfortunately, it looks like most people were too busy wondering who the local merchant woman was sleeping with to have noticed and appreciated these characters.

Have no fear - there are and will be plenty more female fighter-types for you to admire. You just need to stop and read some full descriptions.

As for supposed "cliche" non-combative female characters, a good third of the ones you're likely pinpointing as being cliche don't fit that role at all. Their descriptions aren't necessarily written to be beautiful (though, most people don't bother to read past the first line, and just assume the character is pretty).

This isn't necessarily a defence of flawless warrior women. And I'm not saying the cliches don't exist. But when you say that you never see anything but the cliche, then all I can say is you're not looking.

P.S. This post is not directed solely at Petra - I just grabbed her quote.

[Comrade Canadia]

Okay, a lot of you are missing my -point- here... although SandFerret, naatok, and somebody else posted some bright stuff.  SandFerret - your point about homosexuality, however, is moot.  If there was gender equality, genders would not exist as we know them.  

Gender and sex are NOT the same thing.  Gender is your societal role, sex is the naughty bits you were born with.  They usually coincide in most societies, like ours, but NOT ALWAYS.  This is why I'm broaching this question with armag - is armag's concept of gender what it should be?

Naatok's question about whether sleeping to the top works on armag was an awesome one, becuase it sort of addresses EXACTLY the point I want to make here.  It -does- work on armag, and if you tie it into Bestatte's point about it being considered 'the' perennial IRL way for women to get into positions of power.  It shouldn't be necessary on armag, but people do it anyways because it's what they know. WHY is it what they know?  Because of sexism, gender bias, and gender roles.  You take these conceptions, and form ENTIRE CHARACTERS based on them... all of that gender stigma goes with her.

Actually, if a thread on gender issues and sexism degenerates into people bitching about F-ME PCs... well.  Am I the only one savouring the irony here?

To address some previous posts that were made... Petra?  Yes, of course sexism exists in other cultures, but last time I checked, I doubt we have many Islamic players.  Most of us have Christian values, even an atheist like me.  That's why Christian values are what's being discussed, they're the vlaues that we're bringing into this supposedly non-Christian mud.

Prissy Girl, you rule - I love what you have to say.

SandFerret - Best post up yet.  Although homosexuality wouldn't even be a stastistic if genders were equal.  I mean, if we're equal... how is sleeping with a man different from sleeping with a woman?

jmordestky - AWESOME idea... I think it needs to be a little more in depth than that, but definitely something along those lines.  

Anyways, my point behidn all of this is:  Armag has sexism and gender bias.  I think it'd be cooler without it... and without it for REAL, so that some concepts we have that surround gender don't even exist.  Do you agree?  How do we do this?

-Der Comrade

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

1)   Sexes have evolved in parallel. IE a male and female of the same race have the same potential mentally and physically. As a result of this equality the notion of sexism based on such abilities would be non-existent.

Correct.

2)   Huge differences exist between races, resulting in a lot of racism.

Correct.

3)   Due to the harshness of environment, having multiple reproductive partners would be a large benefit to the survival ones genes. As a result values such as monogamy would be largely played down.

Correct.

4)   A PC's description should realistically depict his/her profession of choice. For example: Mercs should have scars, scribes should be pasty.

Correct, for the most part. It should be noted that the description should never expressly call the PC by his profession, except in cases where the wording is non-subjective, IE: a warrior's scars, or a fighting man's palms.

5)   Beauty is reflected by those few who are well fed, avoid the sun and are on the whole pampered.

Beauty, in the classical sence, is not dependant upon sheltered lives. It is simply the structure of the face. A scarred woman can still be abjectly beautiful. This is why you have the fantasy artists who draw sexy women with scars and other small flaws. These women could very well exist in Armageddon. But the Marilyn Monroe women, these are the women who should only be allowed as nobles or recluses...well to do recluses.

6)   The lack of religious institutions demanding that homosexuality is an evil practice results in any form of homosexuality being a completely acceptable to the general populace of zalanthas.

I agree. I still, however, see certian sects or cliques using one's sexual preference as an insult or point of weakness. A man who does not reproduce is 'still' one who may seem a tad weak. But then, perhaps one could make an insult based on hetrosexuality as well. in other words, sexual relationships on Zalanthas are not singled out by the whole, but rather by a small group here or there. I disagree with anyone who says noone cares who you fuck in Zalanthas.

[jmordetsky]

I agree. I still, however, see certian sects or cliques using one's sexual preference as an insult or point of weakness. A man who does not reproduce is 'still' one who may seem a tad weak. But then, perhaps one could make an insult based on hetrosexuality as well. in other words, sexual relationships on Zalanthas are not singled out by the whole, but rather by a small group here or there. I disagree with anyone who says noone cares who you fuck in Zalanthas.

Valid....but there is the idea of what they think in the context of the society...and how to model it realisitcally. For example, in various cultures on earth at varying times, there have been vastly different ideas about the acceptability of alternative sexualities.

For example (correct me if i'm off on any of these it's been long time since history classes) in athens it was acceptable for men, but not women. In rome at one point it was acceptable, but not for women and male "submissives" were looked down upon harshly. In pre-shogun japan it was very acceptable. In current US culture the idea of "lipstick" lesbianism is accepted, if not vogue.  Afgan pashtun's have an odd culture where it's acceptable for men to buy boys, but not women.

IMHO I don't really care what the pervassive attitudes on zalanthas are, accepted, not accepted, descriminatory...I'll play it anywhich way, zalanthas is a pretty oppressive place, so it might make sense that you'd be oppressed based on just about anything that made you different.

I'd just like to hear some well thought out ideas on what it would be like on the big Z taking into account the physical equality of sexes, harshness of survial and the lack of moral constructs surrounding the issue.

[I Have Steel]

I'm currently handling the position of a semi-pretty woman in a somewhat-position of power and climbing.

In all honesty when I wrote the desc, I intended for her to be an athletic looking type of woman, instead of a hotbody, but it's came out that way.

The hwole sexism, she slept her way there does exist, and she's heard it quiet a few times. I honestly don't mind it IG or OOC, because she simply shows off a few of her battle scars on what was once a scarless body, and shrugs, before saying "Mine's bigger, did ya get yours fightin' a lit'l kid or what?"

And a LOT of it IS the boys. (And some girls.) In the whole time I've played this character (which has been quiet a bit) she loves to laugh, and joke around in the taverns over a few ales, or some darts, but that's it... Except for the fact that almost all of the men (and some women) seem to take a warrioress on her day off having a good time as someone wanting a relationship, only to have her be like, "Go find a whore, I got a man of my own if I need a fek."

Don't just blame F-Me descs either, I've seen one-eyed women with a ten inch scar that trails down their neck and beneath their leathers get hit on just as much as a good majority oof the F-mes.

I don't see why it's a problem though. I can't remember a single time in my near two years of playing, that I've oocly been disgusted by a character. We look at the desc, and we look at the actions of the player when we see them, but why don't we give their history the benefit of the doubt before passing judgement?

Take the flawless skinned warrioress who's been wandering around for a whole IG day... We see this, and then we're like "Ugh!" But how many of us don't know that she might have been given a secluded life, who's only real time spent outside her parents apartment was frequent trips to the bazaar and back, with her warrior mum or pops teaching her the basics of warriorhood (which is where we start out anyways, right?). Now going along with a history like that, there's a pretty good reason her skin isn't all marred up.

Now three game years down the line, after she's became a seasoned bynner, if she can peel her armors off and there's no scars on the long desc or equipment area, then you can judge.  

IMO, too many people take a look for more than it's worth. Listen to my warrioress' foul mouth before you judge her because of breast size...

Which leads to my next bit.

Why make a judgement on the movements and ldesc of a warrior?

If she's silk clad, then I can see. But if Purdy Hacknslash walks into the tavern, clad in a chitin breastplate and an aba on her body, how are you gonna know she has a chest with cleavage that could open a Corona? Just because it's in their desc? There is no x-ray vision that lets us see through all that, and I wish a lot of players would take that into account as well.

I mean sure, you see breast described, so they're instantly an f-me? Maybe the player is all for a FULL description.  I always describe every feature in my characters that would noticeably stand out, especially the chest (on both male and female). Because of one of my earlier Arm experiences.

One of my characters was changing, another guy comes in and looks at her, he then starts spouting off about her huge ginkas, when I had intended the character to be fairly small, and lithe. ... Had I described the breast as that in my desc, he wouldn't of made that misconception.

Which is also kind of aggravating, because the women get slagged for describing breast, but I have NEVER seen a 'barrel-chested man' or 'broad-chest man' ect... get slagged for the description of his chest.

I guess to sum up my post gone rant...

The sexism card does exist in SOME but not ALL players and the roles they take, but I find it best to roll with it and play it up somehow, instead of being like "OMIGAWD! He doesn't understand we're supposed to be equal! SEX!!!ST!" (I mean, afterall, maybe his momma was one of these dainty, weak-armed women, and he got a bad misconception. ).

As well as, take a deeper look before you judge solely on a desc. And if you DO find it to be a new player still getting broken in to the game... Lead by example.  :wink:

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Excellent post, Steel.

[Angela Christine]

Although homosexuality wouldn't even be a stastistic if genders were equal.  I mean, if we're equal... how is sleeping with a man different from sleeping with a woman?

Because equal doesn't necessarily mean identical.  A tonne of feathers and a tonne of bricks are equal in weight and can occupy a similar amount of space, but they have significant differnces.  100 pennies and 4 quarters are equal in value, both are worth one dollar, but they are not the same.

If nothing else, I believe Zalanthans are savvy enough to figure out that M/F pairing often produce children, while M/M and F/F pairing rarely produce children.  

If you were in a small tribe that needed maximum reproduction your tribe might prefer M/F couplings.  On the other hand in a stable population or an over-crowded city you don't want massive population growth, so hyper-reproduction has no value, putting off reproduction has no stigma.  (Those of you 20+ may have encountered relatives asking when you will get married, and if you are married when you will "start a family" because moderate reproduction is still valued).  Well-off people might prefer a same-sex concubine, to prevent embarasing half-cast children resulting from a bad batch of mul mix.  A married noblewoman might prefer female sextoys because then there will be no question of who the father is.  A byn merc living in the barracks might not want the inconvience of young children at this point in his/her career, so fooling around with same sex fuck-buddies is a good way to get your jollies without undesireable consequences.  

All that assumes that people are pragmatic.  There are also esthetic considerations.  

I'm mostly decended from "white" people, with a little Cree.  I've seen natives I found attractive, caucasians I found attractive, blacks I found attractive, hispanics I found attractive (duh, hispanic is just a caucasian/native hybrid), etc.  But I haven't ever been attracted to an australian aborigany or a male asian.  Nope, Jackie Chan and Bruce Lee don't do a thing for me.  Go figure.  I find the delicate porceline redheads attractive, but not the heavily freakled redheads with coarse hair.  I am rarely attracted to people with tightly curled hair or perfectly straight hair, I prefer wavy hair or loose curls.  I'm not overly fond of body hair.  There is no reason why Zalanthans wouldn't also have esthetic preferences, liking the curve of a female hip or  stubble on a man's jaw.

Then we've got pheremones and other signals designed to be read by the primitive "lizard brain" that keeps us breathing and fucking.  Your culture may say there is no difference, your culture may even declare same-sex relationships to be superior, but the primitive, primal part of your brain will still be picking up reproductive signals.  Unless you are biologically homosexual you will recieve those signals and have the urge to act on them.  

I would expect the number of true homosexuals to be about the same as in our world.  But I would also expect the number of "bi-curious" people to be much higher.  If there is no stigma, why not fool around or experiment?  It will probably feel good even if you decide it isn't as good as fucking your prefered sex.  Kids like to explore.  I was an early developer, so a few other girls wanted to get a look at my almost-training-bra sized boobies when I was 10 or 11.  Would it have gone farther than a quick peek if we'd lived in a culture without all sorts of sexual taboos?  Maybe.  :twisted:

I think the gender role lines would be considerable broader in Zalanthas since neither sex has a significant physical advantage, but that doesn't mean there would be no gender differences at all.

AC

[Carnage]

I just wanted to point out something: you mentioned a Byn might have homosexual relations because he doesn't want a child. Why would he care? There's no child support in Zalanthas. He can just tell the woman to fuck off and that it's her problem. A templar won't give a shit or anything.

[Kalden]

I don't buy the premise that men are just women with dicks, or vice versa. I think this whole debate could be solved by just saying that psychologically, men and women are the same as in real life. There's still few limits on what a women or a man can do, and it's much easier to RP. Let men be men, and women be women.

You could just say that women are just as strong as men, but due to the extra maternal burden and pregnancy, they aren't in leadership or warrior roles as often.

[Angela Christine]

I just wanted to point out something: you mentioned a Byn might have homosexual relations because he doesn't want a child. Why would he care? There's no child support in Zalanthas. He can just tell the woman to fuck off and that it's her problem. A templar won't give a shit or anything.

What about the girly bynners?

Or guys that actually feel a connection to their offspring, and to their family line?

Besides, if chicks know that 'byn men are are not reliable mates, then it won't be easy to find a woman that is willing to take the risk.  Other than the drunks groping eachother in the Gaj dorm.  Yeah, that's attractive.  


AC

[Comrade Canadia]

Well -obviously- homosexuality is still going to be an exception to the rule.  But if the genders are equal, the ideas of 'man' and 'woman' as we know them would not exist.  Actually, it'd make the most sense on armag for completely different genders and gender roles to exist.  Gender and sex are NOT the same thing.  There have been societies on earth with three genders, and crazy stuff like that.  Just because you have a dick doesn't make you a man by common convention, just like having a vagina doesn't make you a woman.  They make you the male and female of the species, respectively... and there are roles our soceity ascribes to each sex.

Anyways, if the sexes and genders were equal, homosexuality as a concept wouldn't exist in the same way.  I don't think it would carry the same stigma as something different - you'd just sleep with the opposite sex if you wanted to breed.  Sex for pleasure and sex for breeding are very, very, different concepts.  Look at the Ancient Greeks someone mentioned.   Love between two men was considered to be far holier and purer than love between a man and a woman, and yet - they still bred.

My question here is, how SHOULD homosexuality on armag be treated?  I'm not really a fan of the 'You're gay?  Oh.  Well, I accept your choice.' attitude armag has, because it speaks of stigma against homosexuals that previously existed historically.  

-Der Comrade

Why make a judgement on the movements and ldesc of a warrior?

If she's silk clad, then I can see. But if Purdy Hacknslash walks into the tavern, clad in a chitin breastplate and an aba on her body, how are you gonna know she has a chest with cleavage that could open a Corona? Just because it's in their desc? There is no x-ray vision that lets us see through all that, and I wish a lot of players would take that into account as well.

I mean sure, you see breast described, so they're instantly an f-me? Maybe the player is all for a FULL description.  I always describe every feature in my characters that would noticeably stand out, especially the chest (on both male and female). Because of one of my earlier Arm experiences.

If you had huge tits and a breastplate on I would know. Any girls with huge tits and a breastplae want to test me let me know

[JollyGreenGiant]

Over the years there have been countless identical noble house servant chicks who have climbed the rank to the point of near nobility and walked around with more NPC guards than an actual noble has.  It's just that they are such clones and it would be so refreshing to see a woman gain fame and power in a different way, perhaps as a warrior, for a change.  A couple have existed, of course, but boy are they rare!

I disagree.  Here's why.

THE choice of servants is of no little importance to a prince, and they are good or not according to the discrimination of the prince. And the first opinion which one forms of a prince, and of his understanding, is by observing the men he has around him; and when they are capable and faithful he may always be considered wise, because he has known how to recognize the capable and to keep them faithful. But when they are otherwise one cannot form a good opinion of him, for the prime error which he made was in choosing them.

Thereupon he promoted Messer
Ramiro d'Orco [de Lorqua], a swift and cruel man, to whom he gave the
fullest power. This man in a short time restored peace and unity with
the greatest success. Afterwards the duke considered that it was not
advisable to confer such excessive authority, for he had no doubt but
that he would become odious, so he set up a court of judgment in the
country, under a most excellent president, wherein all cities had their
advocates. And because he knew that the past severity had caused some
hatred against himself, so, to clear himself in the minds of the people,
and gain them entirely to himself, he desired to show that, if any
cruelty had been practised, it had not originated with him, but in the
natural sternness of the minister. Under this pretence he took Ramiro,
and one morning caused him to be executed and left on the piazza at
Cesena with the block and a bloody knife at his side. The barbarity of
this spectacle caused the people to be at once satisfied and dismayed.

[Petra]

Your quote, JollyGreenGiant, looks like something based off Medieval Europe, not ArmageddonMUD.

As an incidental, I should point out that yes there have been countless female warriors out there, but the Thrain concept I used is an example of the exceptionally rare roles (for males or females).  I really don't think you can argue that of the few characters who have achieved fame and played a significant hand in shaping world-changing events, the males have the tendancy to be more warrior-like and the females are almost always playing the priss (however you choose to define that, you know what I mean).  Sure there are countless warrior chicks in Arm (probably 75% played by males), but I'm talking about true leaders who have had an impact on the game, not the more commonplace fly-by-night role who has little impact on the world.

[Clegane]

On the other hand Petra...I think if you go back and review Arm's history (the stuff thats kept in player heads rather than the docs), you'll find that most MALE players who had the greatest influence on the game also were not mighty-thewed warriors, but 'prissy' diplomats, merchants, and politicians. Thrain Ironsword was one noteworthy, sure.

But for every manly warrior who has hacked his way to fame and glory, there've been twice as many Medicis, Khanns, Lawrences, Kholdarians, Ihsahns, etc, etc etc.

Most of the real famous movers-and-shakers I remember (male or female) have not been buff, combative types at all.

Also, unless my early-morning memory is mistaken, JGG was quoting Niccolo Machiavelli. Beyond a doubt, the world's most infamous and renowned political commentator. And his work, despite being in a medieval-European context, is HIGHLY applicable to Zalanthas as a whole.

Edit:Mispelled name corrected as a result of Uberjazz's watchful eye

[Tamarin]

This is probably true, but I believe that is due to the fact that these people have been placed into roles of potential influence.  I.e. Ihsahn...I mean...RP-wise...he probably was a serious fighter.  Is that where his glory came from?  No, because of his situation.  PCs in positions of nobility have pretty much automatic influence because of their stature, and if they keep with it and make themselves public, they can shape the game world much more than the average cloth-cutter can.

And its spelled: Kholdarian.

[Petra]

And that's exactly what I'm talking about, Clegane.  I'd like to see more militaristic roles at the forefront of world shaping events for a change, and I think it would be grand for a woman to do that too  :lol:.  I can only think of one, she was a leader in the early days of the Rebellion.  Sadly her name escapes me.  The russet-haired something woman.  And before all you IC Fascists react, this was damn near 4 years ago so chill :x.

Maybe I just overgeneralize but somehow when I see a female in the silk-clad concept you describe, Clegane, I have more of a tendancy to roll my eyes than when a male does it.  I'm a terrible person I know.

[Tamarin]

This is probably a standard reaction, but if you want someone to grow up to be a militaristic leader, make a female warrior (or something), train them for a couple dozen RL days, get support from a couple of high-profile nobles/templars, raise an army, and pull a Joan-of-Arc on someone's ass.  I would gladly fight alongside anyone if that ever happened.  I think it would be the coolest thing ever if a PC...without imm influence...manged to garner enough support to wage a war or battle on someone/somewhere.

[Clegane]

While there is a certain degree of romantic appeal in such a concept, I think it is entirely unplausible in Armageddon.

Becuse the 'virtual world' is so integral to the scope of the whole scene, a PC-initiated, PC-led, non-staffed mass-military movement of any sort would be extremely difficult. Really, anyplace worth 'invading' is going to have a virtual population of ten times even the largest PC army one could assemble.  Even your avergae, run-of-the-mill desert tribe is going to have at LEAST fifty-sixty warriors and twice as many non-combatants in its virtual population.

Any chance of success would pretty much require you to muster the ENTIRE online PC population, north and south, unite them under one banner...and then still have to Wish up to get an Imm to handle the situation for you.

An amusing concept, yes....but absolutely unplayable in this mud.

[Tamarin]

Well, the actual battle and NPC soldiers would require imm support, yes, but the initial concept and overall battle plan could feasibly be drafted by a player.  The final product would definitely require imm support, though, for sure.

[Petra]

How is it unplausible?  If I am a Lieutenant in the Allanaki militia and we are about to invade some raider outpost I think we have more than enough people to make that possible.  There have been countless military ventures which have taken place in Arm, though, no, they are not an every day occurence, but the actions which span entire game years that lead up to the event are what it's all about.  All I am saying is it would be nice to see women take on roles such as: Davaz, Thrain, Hekorz, Kroz (?), Dgal, Kul, etc., rather than the age-old house servant female who walks around with 3 NPC guards, dressed exactly like a noble except for the signet ring.

[Bestatte]

Just to tie in to the original point, none of this relates at all to "special app" characters. Those characters (such as the *templar* Ishann and the *noble* Lawrence) were already influential by definition of their titles upon character creation. They didn't have to work to get the silver ring or templar's robe. It comes with the character.

Discount any special app characters - the merchant family members, the nobles, templars, because none of them start out as "just commoners" and work/earn/sleep their way into the position.

Removing all those types from the calculation, I would offer, again based on my observation, that those female characters who have earned higher status than the "average" commoner have done so either by a) actually/virtually sleeping their way to the top, or b) encouraged the perception by others that a) happened. In other words - they used their femininity as a tool or weapon to get to the position.  I would also state, to be fair, that femininity might only get someone TO that position, but those who maintained it did so via the more gender-neutral intelligence, cunning, planning, and wit.

As I stated previously, the primary issue I have with any of this, is that these role models encourage others to do the same thing - or try to do it. And right now, there are just SO many hot babes with silky hair, skin with only the most obscure scars, silk-clad, slipper-wearing dainty women in the game it's just...old. Done to death, you can't compete with each other so just give it the fuck up and try something new, please.

And if you (the reader, whoever you are) think I'm talking about you personally, heh - read my last paragraph. There's so many of you, and you all look alike to me, so sure I might be talking about you. Or I might be talking to the OTHER one. Or the OTHER one. Or maybe I'm talking to all y'all. Who knows - I can't tell one from the other anymore.

/rant