Question on gender for staff and players

[Comrade Canadia]

This was originally gonna be just for staff because I -REALLY- want their 'official' opinions... but hey, I want player opinions too!  Also, keep in mind with this that although this is a criticism of the mud, it's also one that I ascribe to pretty much ANY roleplay world.  Armag is simply the convenient one for me to start on.  

Now.  Ideally, armag is a sort of gender-neutral place from what I've gathered.  Men and women are equal statistically and socially, and as such, nasty issues like sexual discrimination aren't an issue.  

Of course, this is not the case.  I've played the mud (off and on) for around eight years now, and constantly see gender lines and barriers which make the supposed equality of men and women on the mud artificial.   Sure, they can all hold the same jobs... but the underlying attidues are still all there.  A great example is the way that powerful, self-made female PCs are treated.  They're HATED - way more than powerful, self-made male PCs.  Has anybody ever accused a powerful male PC of sleeping his way to the top?

Going beyond that, if the genders were truly equal.. wouldn't the idea of gender as we know it actually not even -exist-?!  If people don't differentiate between man and woman, then ascribing certain gender roles to them would never have happened in the first place.  And then, concepts like marriage, sexuality (if there's no social difference between a man and a woman, how can you be gay?), even monogamy.  Deviations from our classic North American values are accepted and encouraged on the mud... but they're still deviations.  Being gay on armag is still treated like a perversion, just a perversion that many people are accept, support, or at least tolerate.  If someone is gay, the reaction is 'I'm okay with that' most of the time.  Being okay with it shouldn't be an ISSUE if there was true gender equality.

Hell, jumping back a bit in my convuluted rant...  promiscuity shouldn't even be an issue!  People seem to get irritated at PCs, especially female PCs, that sleep around.  Why?  Puritan, Christian values of a woman losing her virginity and staying with the same man her entire life don't APPLY to armag... but violating those values is considered bad.  Countless RL societies, often with different concepts of gender, have little issue with promiscuity.  Armag, on the other hand, seems to like to bandy the word 'slut' around.  

Hell!  Just on IRC someone commented that a male prostitute on armag would never make any money.  I disagree... but that very attitude speaks of serious gender difference going on here.  Beyond that, a male prostitute would be considered a hero among all men, with the greatest job on earth.  A female prostitute is a slut.  Only men are allowed to enjoy sex?  Anyways, I can go on... but I hope you see the point I'm trying to make here.

SO - my behind this long winded blathering is... what do you think about this?  Am I full of it or is this actually something worth discussing?  What should armag's conception of gender ACTUALLY be?  Or is how it works right now alright?  Can it even be changed?

Apologies in that this sort of picks up where another thread left off... but hey, it was getting long.  *grin*  Staffers, please, I'd LOVE to hear your opinions on my half-assed attempt at some feminist analysis.  Especially any of you who know your stuff better than I do on this topic.

-Der Comrade

[Bestatte]

It isn't that there are no differences between males and females in Zalanthas. There are -obvious- differences, in most cases. Males still have those protrusions sticking out from between their legs, women still have exaggerated mammaries. The male still carries the sperm which fertilizes the female's egg, the female still provides the breast milk.

It's not a gender-neutral thing. It's that males and females are supposedly -treated- equally, because both are equally capable of realizing the same goals, and both are equally capable of attaining the same results.

It's my belief - based purely on observation, that the reason females get such a bad rap is because some players of female characters choose to RP their characters in such a way that draws attention to their sexuality, blatantly and regularly. Even if the character is still a virgin - the one that behaves like a slattern will usually be thought of as a slattern. I think I've met up with two males who have behaved in this manner in my year+ of playing.

It's the delivery...men (again, in my observation - no theorizing, no facts) - might talk about getting laid, about the tits on that chick, about how horny they are, about how they once had six women in bed. In real life - talk is cheap, and you can just chalk it up to the male ego, and discount pretty much anything they say. In game, it can be the same, especially if the bragging male has a face full of sores, peeling lips, filthy armor, and reeks of latrine scum.

In my observation - the females who want to be the braggarts in the scenario look, dress, behave, and move like what they're bragging about. So they don't have to brag. They EXUDE sexuality. You walk in the bar and you can freaking smell it from across the room. They (THE CHARACTERS) are on the prowl. Either they're on the prowl, or they're coming back from an orgy. They don't have to say a word, because it reeks from every inch of their perfectly flawlessly described skin, their gorgeous silks or dainty linen slippers, or their sashaying hipmovements of their emotes.

In mud building (and in journalism) there's a saying: Show, don't tell. And that, I believe, is what's happening here. Females are showing. And showing, and showing, and shoving their showingness down everyone's throats. Males tell. No one gives a shit about the males telling, because telling means nothing. I could tell you I jumped off the empire state building and lived, and you would just laugh at me or snort or make fun of my childish need for attention.  But if I took you to NYC and jumped off the Empire State Building and lived, whew. Get the picture? (of course the men in the nice white coats would be at the bottom to pick me up, but that's another matter)

If you want to see more "equality" - less female bashing, or more male sluttiness, you need to change the players, because they're the ones making their characters do what they do.

[wizturbo]

Completely agree with Bestatte there.

I personally see nothing at all wrong with some of the female characters that exude sexuality, some players who do that are -amazingly- good at playing the seductress.

The problem I do see, is that so many, and I mean -so- many female characters are made to be pretty and act like they're pretty, and just from personal experience, pretty girls cause a lot of drama.  Men fight over them, people are jealous of them, there is a stereotype that their beauty makes a combative or labor related role unfitting...in medieval society, if your a really attractive woman you generally end up marrying someone to take care of you, and live off of your sexual "goods".  I said "generally" because I'm sure there are exceptions, but exceptions must prove themselves otherwise, because people stereotype.

Try making a scarred, broken-nosed scrawny woman, and I personally think you'll see a completely different reaction from the world around you.

These same stereotypes exist for male characters to a degree, I've experienced some of it myself with my current character.

[Bestatte]

To add to a comment from wizturbo, something that really strikes my funny bone...

I've seen - countless female characters who look positively gorgeous. Maybe a little tiny scar on their wrist, or callouses on their fingertips - but their fingers are slender and their wrists are delicate...the "poetry" of their descriptions implies that they are absolutely beautiful with no identifiable major wounds or scars or indentations or missing limbs...and these are hunters and warriors.

It just makes no sense at all. If you want to play the beautiful girl who all the men fight over, remember that the average warrior/hunter is NOT going to be flawless. They're gonna have some bumps and bruises and broken noses and bad knees and missing digits or limbs. Sensual women are great, and like wiz said, some players roleplay sensual women beautifully.  But sensuality isn't gonna save your ass (or that perky perfect nose) from a raptor.

[Sandferret]

Disclaimer: The following is one person's view and may suffer from not understanding the finest nuances of the English language. Nothing stated is meant to offend anyone.

Thoughts on the gender questions:

There is a lot of transfer of values in the game, it is almost impossible to avoid it. We can only try.

It is true that I have never heard a male accused of sleeping his way to the top. But I did meet this prejudice when playing a female in 'mid-management'. The poor girl, who was constantly being called slut and whore, was not able to even find someone to kiss her for several IC years. Some of the males she liked indicated that if she was their equal, things would be different. This prejudice certainly exists.

Of course gender exists. Equal does not equal homogenous. Women and men are different in subtle ways (not talking about the classical 'difference').  Both are perfectly capable to do the job, though their methods may vary.

As for homosexuality, it has been established that an approximate 10% of the population is homosexual. It is deviant from the norm. What is different is that there is no prejudice attached to it, something our society may not reach for some decades still. It is certainly not a perversion, just a personal taste. Being attracted to one's own sex only is no more odd than being attracted to only red-haired people. Probably less, really.

Heterosexuality is a requirement for the preservation of the species, therefore it will likely be predominant trait. Personally, what I would like to see (not literally) is far more bi-sexuality.

Marriages are formed for the sake of procreation in the circles where heritage matters. As well as 'life companionship' between two people. The latter being informal and voluntary, even fragile. It  would be great to see a couple, committed to each other, but with no sexual jealousy. That is hard though, for it requires solid trust in that the other partner will not find someone 'better'.

A prostitute is not a 'slut', whether female or male. Nor do I think it would be glamorous, save for the handful lucky ones who find a wealthy patron or patrons. It is a service offered. A job. Honest work.

Some things should be different. Can they be corrected? Yes, slowly. Next time someone comments on one of these things in a 'Western' way, ask them why they think that. Express that you find their thoughts unusual and discuss why. There is always the chance that that particular PC has a reason for the comment. Whatever else, it certainly provides you both some interesting RP.

[Krath]

Good Post. Well thought out.

[wizturbo]

Yup!

Its a harsh world ladies.  Dont be afraid to scar yourselves up, its realistic.  It doesn't mean you have to be grotesque from so much physical injury, but the ones with flawless skin, dainty figures and long well-kept hair should be reserved for those who live a lifestyle that reflects that, and such lifestyles are quite rare.

[Petra]

A great example is the way that powerful, self-made female PCs are treated. They're HATED - way more than powerful, self-made male PCs. Has anybody ever accused a powerful male PC of sleeping his way to the top?

Honestly though I think some of this concept is a myth.  The way I see it Armageddon is a very harsh climate.  For girls (and boys) who want to make Arm their little Cabbage Patch or Barbie Doll House (and believe me, plenty of them do!) I can only think to suggest they go play a high fantasy MUSH.  The women who climb to power in Arm, from what I have seen, have a tendancy to be more ... girlie.  It's not their gender that makes them despised, it's their role.  I guarantee you when the next Thrain Ironsword shows up, if it's a female, no one will so much as blink.  But I don't care what sex you are, if you're playing the overdone scenario of "sleeping to the top" expect a heavy dose of both IC and OOC spite.  I'm telling you, gender has nothing to do with it, it's the role that these people make -- it just so happens usually females fill one type of role and males another.

[Petra]

Hell, jumping back a bit in my convuluted rant... promiscuity shouldn't even be an issue! People seem to get irritated at PCs, especially female PCs, that sleep around. Why? Puritan, Christian values of a woman losing her virginity and staying with the same man her entire life don't APPLY to armag... but violating those values is considered bad. Countless RL societies, often with different concepts of gender, have little issue with promiscuity. Armag, on the other hand, seems to like to bandy the word 'slut' around.

Christianity is not the only faith which holds the belief that a woman or man who sleeps around is a slut.  Countless RL societies, often with different concepts of gender, DO have issues with promiscuity.  Take the Middle East, for example, an environment perhaps not all that unlike Zalanthas.  You go see the difference in culture over there and how it affects women and then we'll talk .  I don't like using Medieval Europe as the only source of world history to compare Arm with.  What's more, you'll never get the mass of Arm's players to abandon their western perceptions, no matter how hard you try.  It's innevitable.

[Seeker]

I'm sorry, but I just don't see this much in game.  I read about it ad nauseum on the GBD, though.

My PC interacts with males and females, powerful and less powerful characters all the time, and I rarely see, in game, the type of cattiness and name calling described.

I think either I am not, thankfully, included in the right gossip circles IG, or that this is something that exists primarly in the player's OOC communities.

If someone wants to play a dainty taste-treat for their PC, more power to 'em.  I just have to play my -own- character true to form.


Seeker

[EvilRoeSlade]

Does it not say in the documentation that if you find dual wielding two large weapons unrealistic, then don't do it yourself, but don't criticize other people who are doing it either?

It annoys me, those flawlessly beautiful women with jobs requiring heavy manual labor and intense combat, where their looks simply would not survive.  But I've never made a flawlessly beautiful hunter myself.  I don't berate those who do OOCly, even if I don't agree with it.

That said, my brutally-scarred guard certainly won't respect that flawless guard of either sex, all questions of gender equality aside.  What else am I to do?  It happens too often for me to decide that they are either magickers or benefitting from magickers.  And I have no place to express my distress to them OOCly.

Petra, you are wrong.  Very wrong.  The attitudes of the MUD can change, unless you and others like you stubbornly cling to ideas that have no place on Zalanthas despite all reasoning.

[Prissy Girl]

Part of the good thing about people assuming that a female character has slept their way to the top is they also assume that they are dumb as a box of rocks and blind to boot.

So, go ahead, I say.  Hate and gossip and assume my females are little waifs that couldn't manage a thing if not for their powerful male protectors. Feel free to continue to allow OOC perceptions and morality to color your game play, or to fail to think in the layers and layers that are the hallmark of -any- succesful leader character, whether they look like Nicole Kidman, Brad Pitt or a gortok on steroids. Its not my game play you'll be ruining, its your own.  My character will just sigh, shake her head and grind her delicate little heel into your corpse's forehead as she walks away.

[Krath]

I agree with EvilRoe...I was typing in a post but read his and decided it covered exactly how I felt.

[Bestatte]

Prissy Girl, it's not that characters like yours exist. Characters like yours are GREAT, and I say go for it, with every inch of your stiletto heels.

My issue with it is that there's just so many of you. Not you - personally - but that general character type. It's like..every new female character I meet these days, who is either elven or human, attempts to be JUST LIKE THAT.

They all want to be the "femme fatal" type who pretends to be some lovely bauble yet actually has a brain and isn't afraid to wield it.

This only goes for humans and elves, with the occasional half-elf tossed in. And yes, it is almost always female. Not always, just almost always.

I want to see more sexually ambiguous females. I want to see more disinterested females. I want to see more sexually hideous females. I want to see more females who you'd look at and say "Blech - who would ever want that?" I want to see more females behaving like these "equals" - meaning, more of a variety of types. The reason there is this stereotype, is because so many players feed it by creating the stereotype with their own characters. That is my opinion, based on my own observation.

I love seeing a well-played human female who has no particular interest in having a relationship, or many relationships, but instead might allow themselves to have one as a PART of their overall personality. I just don't see much of it in new female human/elven/half-elven characters lately. They're almost all very pretty, and almost all interested in being flirtateous, and almost all giggle, and almost all want to wear pretty silks or pretty sandcloth or pretty jewelry, and a healthy number of them get pregnant and emote having babies until their character has to go out hunting and then they conveniently forget their babies even exist. You add all that up, and you get the stereotype, and a perfectly reasonable explanation as to why some people make a fuss about it.

It's not the majority of female characters, not by a longshot. But I have noticed a trend in newer female characters. Are they new players? Some, yes. Some, definitely not, and some, I don't know. But it is definitely a trend that I've seen.

[Prissy Girl]

While I do think a majority of the newer characters with 'perfect' descriptions are indeed brand new players who will likely get it a bit more with subsequent characters, I think that is an issue that's been beaten to death.  I think that Comrade Canadia made this thread specifically to address characters that had actually already achieved a measure of power.  I'd hate to see it denegrate into the same old thread about f-me PCs all over again.

[Anarchy]

Maybe a little tiny scar on their wrist, or callouses on their fingertips - but their fingers are slender and their wrists are delicate...
.

I have noticed that, and i always end up saying to myself "What the hell?" - flawless skin with scars on their wrists, oh well, even being pretty in the game world has its stressful-want-to-end-it-all-moments, hmm?

Snide comment aside, it is how the PLAYER plays the PC. I do not have much inside view to this as i play elves more then humans, but the two humans i have played, i never got a problem with, maybe becauses i put very little detail into their breasts waist and ass, or maybe its because i didn't allow people to have the chance to made snide comments about her, i'd bite back very quickly.

And thats how it boils down, if you let someone roll over you, male or female, they are going to do it. Male players do not allow people to roll over them, while female players might yield, and in combat roles that can be seen as a sign of weakness - and then come the "She is only there because she had sex with the captain...and all the other officers." - because she has shown a "weakness" You have to think primal, to quote a perfect example....

You beat Nicky with fists he comes back with a bat. You beat him with a knife, he comes back with a gun. And if you beat him with a gun you better kill him, because he'll keep comin' back, and back, until one of you is dead.

And that how its gotta be in order for you not to get those snide she fucked her way up the ladder like a rabbit on heat.

And for those who are non-combat, well im afraid its somthing you will need to deal with, of course, it wont be as much as combat females since not many males take up jobs as aides, crafters merchents, what have you.

[Bestatte]

I think the point, Prissy, is that the reason these females are loathed is because everyone and their brother is trying to do it the same way.

Why beat the shit out of your superior to take his place, when you can just fuck him silly and he'll step aside and let you in?

To be fair, I guess I'd have to add some of the blame on the side of the male PCs who allow it to happen

Silly boys -

[Larrath]

I see the equality between sexes as the result of two things.

1) Reality is harsh; I do not think a man who spends over half of his entire day chopping away at obsidian or looking for salt under the enormous sun and is sweating and has worries from here to the Grey Forest is going to go: "Oh, that one is old/a female/cripple, why don't I stand up and let them rest?".  This is not going to happen, and unless you are a very comfortable and do not have to work very hard (which is maybe 5% of the population with all servants, higher-end mercs and guards, merchants, templars and nobles), and what they do or do not do is not going to change Average Amos.

2) Reality is harsh; a fact that means you have insane natural selection.  I am personally pretty certain that the average man will be stronger than the average woman, even if they both have balanced diets and work out and do the same things.  However, this may not be the case in Zalanthas.
A pretty face is a lot, but weakness means death, and not every female can be a prostitute.

Now, about players who drag their RL values to the game...I'm sad that it happens, but it does.  As they learn and evolve as roleplayers, they dislodge better and better their real feelings about the reality.  They eventually will learn, and yes, if you can point out, ICly, that what they think is NOT the norm, they might act differently next time.

Everyone has to learn, I do not think it is something someone should be upset about.  Instead of going "Dreck!  Those damned people are tainting my Zalanthas with their kankcrap!" try going through it on an RP level...almost every philosophical argument can be proven if you put your mind to it, at least to the point where most people would just accept it and move on, and this is twice as true for roleplaying games.  So, instead, try "Yay, I looked smart and now this player might learn better.  I _AM_ the Saviour!  Give me a cookie!".

Oh, and while I can personally think of some Arabian/Beduin motif to Zalanthas (one day I will learn their coffee rituals for this, maybe), especially with the clothing...the societies are so radically different that I do not think there is place for compare.

Actually, I just think it is best to not compare it to anything and just let it be its own thing.  This is Zalanthas and it is nothing else, now give me my kank back you slanteye gortok fucker before I cut down your ears and sell them.

[Anarchy]

To be fair, I guess I'd have to add some of the blame on the side of the male PCs who allow it to happen

Silly boys -

Dont blame the boys, we all know they have two brains, and between the two they only use 2% of it. Just lucky most of them, when they get big-headed dont faint.

[naatok]

Women have half the money and all the pussy.  So eventually, they're gonna have all the money!
                                  Paraphrased from Eddie Murphy

Simplistic as it is, that is not 'intirely' an innacurate statement.

On earth, social strategies differ between men and women due in largest part to the rise of the patriarchal, war-cult society.

Women on earth do not have the upper body strength that men do, and therefore were not, until the advent of percussion firearms, viable as warriors on the average.  Because of that, among other aspects of the patriarchal warrior cult, women were relegated to, at best, second-class citizenship.

Due to this, women learned to seek and gain political power through extremely subtle and sexually oriented means.

My question now is....would this same strategy proliferate on Zalanthas?
Please post your thoughts on this.

[jmordetsky]

What about a sort of Zalathan fact sheet for new players: (feel free to add or argue)

1)   Sexes have evolved in parallel. IE a male and female of the same race have the same potential mentally and physically. As a result of this equality the notion of sexism based on such abilities would be non-existent.  

2)   Huge differences exist between races, resulting in a lot of racism

3)   Due to the harshness of environment, having multiple reproductive partners would be a large benefit to the survival ones genes. As a result values such as monogamy would be largely played down.

4)   A PC's description should realistically depict his/her profession of choice. For example: Mercs should have scars, scribes should be pasty.

5)   Beauty is reflected by those few who are well fed, avoid the sun and are on the whole pampered.

6)   The lack of religious institutions demanding that homosexuality is an evil practice results in any form of homosexuality being a completely acceptable to the general populace of zalanthas.

[Petra]

I agree with Bestatte.  That kind of role gets quite predictable after a while.  I don't care how super shady secret underground and conniving you supposedly really are, it's still a fad, and whether OOC attacks on those roles are just or not, don't expect them to stop -- that's just the way some people are.  Like I said, the day a female Thrain Ironsword shows up you'll hear me cheer.  No matter how well played or super shady the next silk-clad prissy good-looking commoner who "has everyone wrapped around her finger" with her so-called "manipulation skills", I won't really be impressed.  It's just rarely fitting with the environment as far as I'm concerned and more popular than I believe it would happen in Zalanthas.  Over the years there have been countless identical noble house servant chicks who have climbed the rank to the point of near nobility and walked around with more NPC guards than an actual noble has.  It's just that they are such clones and it would be so refreshing to see a woman gain fame and power in a different way, perhaps as a warrior, for a change.  A couple have existed, of course, but boy are they rare!

[Anonymous]

Women on earth do not have the upper body strength that men do, and therefore were not, until the advent of percussion firearms, viable as warriors on the average.  Because of that, among other aspects of the patriarchal warrior cult, women were relegated to, at best, second-class citizenship.

Due to this, women learned to seek and gain political power through extremely subtle and sexually oriented means.

My question now is....would this same strategy proliferate on Zalanthas?
Please post your thoughts on this.

Yes.  Assuming the libidos are the same as their earthly counterparts.  Reason being, where there's a demand someone will step up to supply it.  If Zalanthan men think with their gonads as much as your typical earthbound male, there will always be females who take advantage of that weakness.

If, however, Zalanthan libidos are the same between the sexes, then there will just be a whole lot of screwing going on.

[jmordetsky]

Hmmm, equal or unequal libidos on zalanthas...interesting concept.

Biologists attribute the male libido to having evolved as result of reproductive benefit. Males have multiple sperm, therefore, donting multiple sperm to many eggs...increase the population and give the male a better chance of passing on it's genes.  

They also argue that a female has but one egg which can be fertilized and there for is more selective and will choose one male.

1 point unequal.

Though I've also heard a biologist say that the reason a male get tired after knocking boots and a female doesn't evolved out the need for a female to have another chance with another male at getting pregnant, thus in case male1's sperm army didn't get the job done.

1 point equal.

Women's libidos, I think, has also been repressed in our society... Which might say they would be the same on Zalanthas, since such constructs do not exist.

1 point equal.

Being that all physical aspects are equal, and the chances of dieing so high...people would need to reproduce in a hurry, and in large numbers.

1 point equal.


I'm leaning toward equal libidos.

[Quirk]

Where I have seen female characters take on combat leadership roles, I haven't noticed the respect given to them differing significantly from their male counterparts on the average. While I've known individual female leaders who have forfeited the respect of their subordinates, I've seen that happen with male leaders too and I would be very cautious of claiming that it's "because they're female". I've known some kick-ass female combat characters who demanded and got respect.

That point made, I'd argue that there are on the whole fewer female combat-oriented characters as a proportion of the total number of female characters in game than there are male ones. Sexual politics remain somewhat Earthlike - the males are usually the ones who take the initiative in attempting to start a relationship, and there are generally more opportunities for a female to try sleeping her way to the top than for a male to do so. Unless this changes, "equality" will remain something of a pipe dream.

In fairness it could also be said that male players are perhaps likely to be more assertive than females as a result of their own cultural upbringing, and this will make itself felt in game.

Quirk

[John]

Has anybody ever accused a powerful male PC of sleeping his way to the top?

That's something none of my noble house servant males would hesitate to do.

Just on IRC someone commented that a male prostitute on armag would never make any money. I disagree...

I agree they wouldn't amongst the PC population. Why? Most PCs are males. Most play hetero-males who wouldn't think of banging a guy for a bit of fun.

Virtually, sure, they'd make as much money as a female whore. Code-wise. Doubt it.

I see some of it IG. I also know people who did talk about it on IMs.

It happens too often for me to decide that they are either magickers or benefitting from magickers.

That or they're incompotent at their job.

My question now is....would this same strategy proliferate on Zalanthas?

It would. But it wouldn't be predominant in any single sex. The docs say men and women are equally as strong, therefore they're equally as strong. Women don't need to rely on it as a gender. However there are also the weak and the lame. THEY'RE the ones who're going to take advantage of this method.

[Carnage]

Why you don't hear about men sleeping to the top: How many female characters in leadershipish positions are there?

As for genders and stereotypes, that's life. A woman doesn't equal a man. A man doesn't equal a woman. We've seen this all our lives, and practice it all the time. For an hour or two a day, we're supposed to be able to stop and put behind us something that has been with us for every day and moment of our lives?

Men and women are just different. Different habits, different hobbies, whatever. There's an exception or two, but there's a reason why this happens and it's not social stigma: genetic build. Men are more proned to certain things, just as women are. That's not sexism, it's evolution. In nature, what good is a mother that goes out and gets herself killed? No good. In mammals, she generally needs to produce and take care of her young. Otherwise it's difficult for the young to survive. Males, on the other hand, are disposable and can readily go out and get killed with no young to worry about.

I'll repeat, don't take this as a sexist post. I believe in equal rights for men and women, but I believe that each has a set disposition and instincts geared for different things. I disagree with its place in Zalanthas, where such instincts would be stronger in my opinion, but game law is game law.

[CindyLou]

About genders in players and characters: I'm in favor of them.

That is all.

[Storm]

Like I said, the day a female Thrain Ironsword shows up you'll hear me cheer.

The female version of Thrain Ironsword has lived and died. As has the female broken-nosed warrior - many times over.

Unfortunately, it looks like most people were too busy wondering who the local merchant woman was sleeping with to have noticed and appreciated these characters.

Have no fear - there are and will be plenty more female fighter-types for you to admire. You just need to stop and read some full descriptions.

As for supposed "cliche" non-combative female characters, a good third of the ones you're likely pinpointing as being cliche don't fit that role at all. Their descriptions aren't necessarily written to be beautiful (though, most people don't bother to read past the first line, and just assume the character is pretty).

This isn't necessarily a defence of flawless warrior women. And I'm not saying the cliches don't exist. But when you say that you never see anything but the cliche, then all I can say is you're not looking.

P.S. This post is not directed solely at Petra - I just grabbed her quote.

[Comrade Canadia]

Okay, a lot of you are missing my -point- here... although SandFerret, naatok, and somebody else posted some bright stuff.  SandFerret - your point about homosexuality, however, is moot.  If there was gender equality, genders would not exist as we know them.  

Gender and sex are NOT the same thing.  Gender is your societal role, sex is the naughty bits you were born with.  They usually coincide in most societies, like ours, but NOT ALWAYS.  This is why I'm broaching this question with armag - is armag's concept of gender what it should be?

Naatok's question about whether sleeping to the top works on armag was an awesome one, becuase it sort of addresses EXACTLY the point I want to make here.  It -does- work on armag, and if you tie it into Bestatte's point about it being considered 'the' perennial IRL way for women to get into positions of power.  It shouldn't be necessary on armag, but people do it anyways because it's what they know. WHY is it what they know?  Because of sexism, gender bias, and gender roles.  You take these conceptions, and form ENTIRE CHARACTERS based on them... all of that gender stigma goes with her.

Actually, if a thread on gender issues and sexism degenerates into people bitching about F-ME PCs... well.  Am I the only one savouring the irony here?

To address some previous posts that were made... Petra?  Yes, of course sexism exists in other cultures, but last time I checked, I doubt we have many Islamic players.  Most of us have Christian values, even an atheist like me.  That's why Christian values are what's being discussed, they're the vlaues that we're bringing into this supposedly non-Christian mud.

Prissy Girl, you rule - I love what you have to say.

SandFerret - Best post up yet.  Although homosexuality wouldn't even be a stastistic if genders were equal.  I mean, if we're equal... how is sleeping with a man different from sleeping with a woman?

jmordestky - AWESOME idea... I think it needs to be a little more in depth than that, but definitely something along those lines.  

Anyways, my point behidn all of this is:  Armag has sexism and gender bias.  I think it'd be cooler without it... and without it for REAL, so that some concepts we have that surround gender don't even exist.  Do you agree?  How do we do this?

-Der Comrade

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

1)   Sexes have evolved in parallel. IE a male and female of the same race have the same potential mentally and physically. As a result of this equality the notion of sexism based on such abilities would be non-existent.

Correct.

2)   Huge differences exist between races, resulting in a lot of racism.

Correct.

3)   Due to the harshness of environment, having multiple reproductive partners would be a large benefit to the survival ones genes. As a result values such as monogamy would be largely played down.

Correct.

4)   A PC's description should realistically depict his/her profession of choice. For example: Mercs should have scars, scribes should be pasty.

Correct, for the most part. It should be noted that the description should never expressly call the PC by his profession, except in cases where the wording is non-subjective, IE: a warrior's scars, or a fighting man's palms.

5)   Beauty is reflected by those few who are well fed, avoid the sun and are on the whole pampered.

Beauty, in the classical sence, is not dependant upon sheltered lives. It is simply the structure of the face. A scarred woman can still be abjectly beautiful. This is why you have the fantasy artists who draw sexy women with scars and other small flaws. These women could very well exist in Armageddon. But the Marilyn Monroe women, these are the women who should only be allowed as nobles or recluses...well to do recluses.

6)   The lack of religious institutions demanding that homosexuality is an evil practice results in any form of homosexuality being a completely acceptable to the general populace of zalanthas.

I agree. I still, however, see certian sects or cliques using one's sexual preference as an insult or point of weakness. A man who does not reproduce is 'still' one who may seem a tad weak. But then, perhaps one could make an insult based on hetrosexuality as well. in other words, sexual relationships on Zalanthas are not singled out by the whole, but rather by a small group here or there. I disagree with anyone who says noone cares who you fuck in Zalanthas.

[jmordetsky]

I agree. I still, however, see certian sects or cliques using one's sexual preference as an insult or point of weakness. A man who does not reproduce is 'still' one who may seem a tad weak. But then, perhaps one could make an insult based on hetrosexuality as well. in other words, sexual relationships on Zalanthas are not singled out by the whole, but rather by a small group here or there. I disagree with anyone who says noone cares who you fuck in Zalanthas.

Valid....but there is the idea of what they think in the context of the society...and how to model it realisitcally. For example, in various cultures on earth at varying times, there have been vastly different ideas about the acceptability of alternative sexualities.

For example (correct me if i'm off on any of these it's been long time since history classes) in athens it was acceptable for men, but not women. In rome at one point it was acceptable, but not for women and male "submissives" were looked down upon harshly. In pre-shogun japan it was very acceptable. In current US culture the idea of "lipstick" lesbianism is accepted, if not vogue.  Afgan pashtun's have an odd culture where it's acceptable for men to buy boys, but not women.

IMHO I don't really care what the pervassive attitudes on zalanthas are, accepted, not accepted, descriminatory...I'll play it anywhich way, zalanthas is a pretty oppressive place, so it might make sense that you'd be oppressed based on just about anything that made you different.

I'd just like to hear some well thought out ideas on what it would be like on the big Z taking into account the physical equality of sexes, harshness of survial and the lack of moral constructs surrounding the issue.

[I Have Steel]

I'm currently handling the position of a semi-pretty woman in a somewhat-position of power and climbing.

In all honesty when I wrote the desc, I intended for her to be an athletic looking type of woman, instead of a hotbody, but it's came out that way.

The hwole sexism, she slept her way there does exist, and she's heard it quiet a few times. I honestly don't mind it IG or OOC, because she simply shows off a few of her battle scars on what was once a scarless body, and shrugs, before saying "Mine's bigger, did ya get yours fightin' a lit'l kid or what?"

And a LOT of it IS the boys. (And some girls.) In the whole time I've played this character (which has been quiet a bit) she loves to laugh, and joke around in the taverns over a few ales, or some darts, but that's it... Except for the fact that almost all of the men (and some women) seem to take a warrioress on her day off having a good time as someone wanting a relationship, only to have her be like, "Go find a whore, I got a man of my own if I need a fek."

Don't just blame F-Me descs either, I've seen one-eyed women with a ten inch scar that trails down their neck and beneath their leathers get hit on just as much as a good majority oof the F-mes.

I don't see why it's a problem though. I can't remember a single time in my near two years of playing, that I've oocly been disgusted by a character. We look at the desc, and we look at the actions of the player when we see them, but why don't we give their history the benefit of the doubt before passing judgement?

Take the flawless skinned warrioress who's been wandering around for a whole IG day... We see this, and then we're like "Ugh!" But how many of us don't know that she might have been given a secluded life, who's only real time spent outside her parents apartment was frequent trips to the bazaar and back, with her warrior mum or pops teaching her the basics of warriorhood (which is where we start out anyways, right?). Now going along with a history like that, there's a pretty good reason her skin isn't all marred up.

Now three game years down the line, after she's became a seasoned bynner, if she can peel her armors off and there's no scars on the long desc or equipment area, then you can judge.  

IMO, too many people take a look for more than it's worth. Listen to my warrioress' foul mouth before you judge her because of breast size...

Which leads to my next bit.

Why make a judgement on the movements and ldesc of a warrior?

If she's silk clad, then I can see. But if Purdy Hacknslash walks into the tavern, clad in a chitin breastplate and an aba on her body, how are you gonna know she has a chest with cleavage that could open a Corona? Just because it's in their desc? There is no x-ray vision that lets us see through all that, and I wish a lot of players would take that into account as well.

I mean sure, you see breast described, so they're instantly an f-me? Maybe the player is all for a FULL description.  I always describe every feature in my characters that would noticeably stand out, especially the chest (on both male and female). Because of one of my earlier Arm experiences.

One of my characters was changing, another guy comes in and looks at her, he then starts spouting off about her huge ginkas, when I had intended the character to be fairly small, and lithe. ... Had I described the breast as that in my desc, he wouldn't of made that misconception.

Which is also kind of aggravating, because the women get slagged for describing breast, but I have NEVER seen a 'barrel-chested man' or 'broad-chest man' ect... get slagged for the description of his chest.

I guess to sum up my post gone rant...

The sexism card does exist in SOME but not ALL players and the roles they take, but I find it best to roll with it and play it up somehow, instead of being like "OMIGAWD! He doesn't understand we're supposed to be equal! SEX!!!ST!" (I mean, afterall, maybe his momma was one of these dainty, weak-armed women, and he got a bad misconception. ).

As well as, take a deeper look before you judge solely on a desc. And if you DO find it to be a new player still getting broken in to the game... Lead by example.  :wink:

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Excellent post, Steel.

[Angela Christine]

Although homosexuality wouldn't even be a stastistic if genders were equal.  I mean, if we're equal... how is sleeping with a man different from sleeping with a woman?

Because equal doesn't necessarily mean identical.  A tonne of feathers and a tonne of bricks are equal in weight and can occupy a similar amount of space, but they have significant differnces.  100 pennies and 4 quarters are equal in value, both are worth one dollar, but they are not the same.

If nothing else, I believe Zalanthans are savvy enough to figure out that M/F pairing often produce children, while M/M and F/F pairing rarely produce children.  

If you were in a small tribe that needed maximum reproduction your tribe might prefer M/F couplings.  On the other hand in a stable population or an over-crowded city you don't want massive population growth, so hyper-reproduction has no value, putting off reproduction has no stigma.  (Those of you 20+ may have encountered relatives asking when you will get married, and if you are married when you will "start a family" because moderate reproduction is still valued).  Well-off people might prefer a same-sex concubine, to prevent embarasing half-cast children resulting from a bad batch of mul mix.  A married noblewoman might prefer female sextoys because then there will be no question of who the father is.  A byn merc living in the barracks might not want the inconvience of young children at this point in his/her career, so fooling around with same sex fuck-buddies is a good way to get your jollies without undesireable consequences.  

All that assumes that people are pragmatic.  There are also esthetic considerations.  

I'm mostly decended from "white" people, with a little Cree.  I've seen natives I found attractive, caucasians I found attractive, blacks I found attractive, hispanics I found attractive (duh, hispanic is just a caucasian/native hybrid), etc.  But I haven't ever been attracted to an australian aborigany or a male asian.  Nope, Jackie Chan and Bruce Lee don't do a thing for me.  Go figure.  I find the delicate porceline redheads attractive, but not the heavily freakled redheads with coarse hair.  I am rarely attracted to people with tightly curled hair or perfectly straight hair, I prefer wavy hair or loose curls.  I'm not overly fond of body hair.  There is no reason why Zalanthans wouldn't also have esthetic preferences, liking the curve of a female hip or  stubble on a man's jaw.

Then we've got pheremones and other signals designed to be read by the primitive "lizard brain" that keeps us breathing and fucking.  Your culture may say there is no difference, your culture may even declare same-sex relationships to be superior, but the primitive, primal part of your brain will still be picking up reproductive signals.  Unless you are biologically homosexual you will recieve those signals and have the urge to act on them.  

I would expect the number of true homosexuals to be about the same as in our world.  But I would also expect the number of "bi-curious" people to be much higher.  If there is no stigma, why not fool around or experiment?  It will probably feel good even if you decide it isn't as good as fucking your prefered sex.  Kids like to explore.  I was an early developer, so a few other girls wanted to get a look at my almost-training-bra sized boobies when I was 10 or 11.  Would it have gone farther than a quick peek if we'd lived in a culture without all sorts of sexual taboos?  Maybe.  :twisted:

I think the gender role lines would be considerable broader in Zalanthas since neither sex has a significant physical advantage, but that doesn't mean there would be no gender differences at all.

AC

[Carnage]

I just wanted to point out something: you mentioned a Byn might have homosexual relations because he doesn't want a child. Why would he care? There's no child support in Zalanthas. He can just tell the woman to fuck off and that it's her problem. A templar won't give a shit or anything.

[Kalden]

I don't buy the premise that men are just women with dicks, or vice versa. I think this whole debate could be solved by just saying that psychologically, men and women are the same as in real life. There's still few limits on what a women or a man can do, and it's much easier to RP. Let men be men, and women be women.

You could just say that women are just as strong as men, but due to the extra maternal burden and pregnancy, they aren't in leadership or warrior roles as often.

[Angela Christine]

I just wanted to point out something: you mentioned a Byn might have homosexual relations because he doesn't want a child. Why would he care? There's no child support in Zalanthas. He can just tell the woman to fuck off and that it's her problem. A templar won't give a shit or anything.

What about the girly bynners?

Or guys that actually feel a connection to their offspring, and to their family line?

Besides, if chicks know that 'byn men are are not reliable mates, then it won't be easy to find a woman that is willing to take the risk.  Other than the drunks groping eachother in the Gaj dorm.  Yeah, that's attractive.  


AC

[Comrade Canadia]

Well -obviously- homosexuality is still going to be an exception to the rule.  But if the genders are equal, the ideas of 'man' and 'woman' as we know them would not exist.  Actually, it'd make the most sense on armag for completely different genders and gender roles to exist.  Gender and sex are NOT the same thing.  There have been societies on earth with three genders, and crazy stuff like that.  Just because you have a dick doesn't make you a man by common convention, just like having a vagina doesn't make you a woman.  They make you the male and female of the species, respectively... and there are roles our soceity ascribes to each sex.

Anyways, if the sexes and genders were equal, homosexuality as a concept wouldn't exist in the same way.  I don't think it would carry the same stigma as something different - you'd just sleep with the opposite sex if you wanted to breed.  Sex for pleasure and sex for breeding are very, very, different concepts.  Look at the Ancient Greeks someone mentioned.   Love between two men was considered to be far holier and purer than love between a man and a woman, and yet - they still bred.

My question here is, how SHOULD homosexuality on armag be treated?  I'm not really a fan of the 'You're gay?  Oh.  Well, I accept your choice.' attitude armag has, because it speaks of stigma against homosexuals that previously existed historically.  

-Der Comrade

Why make a judgement on the movements and ldesc of a warrior?

If she's silk clad, then I can see. But if Purdy Hacknslash walks into the tavern, clad in a chitin breastplate and an aba on her body, how are you gonna know she has a chest with cleavage that could open a Corona? Just because it's in their desc? There is no x-ray vision that lets us see through all that, and I wish a lot of players would take that into account as well.

I mean sure, you see breast described, so they're instantly an f-me? Maybe the player is all for a FULL description.  I always describe every feature in my characters that would noticeably stand out, especially the chest (on both male and female). Because of one of my earlier Arm experiences.

If you had huge tits and a breastplate on I would know. Any girls with huge tits and a breastplae want to test me let me know

[JollyGreenGiant]

Over the years there have been countless identical noble house servant chicks who have climbed the rank to the point of near nobility and walked around with more NPC guards than an actual noble has.  It's just that they are such clones and it would be so refreshing to see a woman gain fame and power in a different way, perhaps as a warrior, for a change.  A couple have existed, of course, but boy are they rare!

I disagree.  Here's why.

THE choice of servants is of no little importance to a prince, and they are good or not according to the discrimination of the prince. And the first opinion which one forms of a prince, and of his understanding, is by observing the men he has around him; and when they are capable and faithful he may always be considered wise, because he has known how to recognize the capable and to keep them faithful. But when they are otherwise one cannot form a good opinion of him, for the prime error which he made was in choosing them.

Thereupon he promoted Messer
Ramiro d'Orco [de Lorqua], a swift and cruel man, to whom he gave the
fullest power. This man in a short time restored peace and unity with
the greatest success. Afterwards the duke considered that it was not
advisable to confer such excessive authority, for he had no doubt but
that he would become odious, so he set up a court of judgment in the
country, under a most excellent president, wherein all cities had their
advocates. And because he knew that the past severity had caused some
hatred against himself, so, to clear himself in the minds of the people,
and gain them entirely to himself, he desired to show that, if any
cruelty had been practised, it had not originated with him, but in the
natural sternness of the minister. Under this pretence he took Ramiro,
and one morning caused him to be executed and left on the piazza at
Cesena with the block and a bloody knife at his side. The barbarity of
this spectacle caused the people to be at once satisfied and dismayed.

[Petra]

Your quote, JollyGreenGiant, looks like something based off Medieval Europe, not ArmageddonMUD.

As an incidental, I should point out that yes there have been countless female warriors out there, but the Thrain concept I used is an example of the exceptionally rare roles (for males or females).  I really don't think you can argue that of the few characters who have achieved fame and played a significant hand in shaping world-changing events, the males have the tendancy to be more warrior-like and the females are almost always playing the priss (however you choose to define that, you know what I mean).  Sure there are countless warrior chicks in Arm (probably 75% played by males), but I'm talking about true leaders who have had an impact on the game, not the more commonplace fly-by-night role who has little impact on the world.

[Clegane]

On the other hand Petra...I think if you go back and review Arm's history (the stuff thats kept in player heads rather than the docs), you'll find that most MALE players who had the greatest influence on the game also were not mighty-thewed warriors, but 'prissy' diplomats, merchants, and politicians. Thrain Ironsword was one noteworthy, sure.

But for every manly warrior who has hacked his way to fame and glory, there've been twice as many Medicis, Khanns, Lawrences, Kholdarians, Ihsahns, etc, etc etc.

Most of the real famous movers-and-shakers I remember (male or female) have not been buff, combative types at all.

Also, unless my early-morning memory is mistaken, JGG was quoting Niccolo Machiavelli. Beyond a doubt, the world's most infamous and renowned political commentator. And his work, despite being in a medieval-European context, is HIGHLY applicable to Zalanthas as a whole.

Edit:Mispelled name corrected as a result of Uberjazz's watchful eye

[Tamarin]

This is probably true, but I believe that is due to the fact that these people have been placed into roles of potential influence.  I.e. Ihsahn...I mean...RP-wise...he probably was a serious fighter.  Is that where his glory came from?  No, because of his situation.  PCs in positions of nobility have pretty much automatic influence because of their stature, and if they keep with it and make themselves public, they can shape the game world much more than the average cloth-cutter can.

And its spelled: Kholdarian.

[Petra]

And that's exactly what I'm talking about, Clegane.  I'd like to see more militaristic roles at the forefront of world shaping events for a change, and I think it would be grand for a woman to do that too  :lol:.  I can only think of one, she was a leader in the early days of the Rebellion.  Sadly her name escapes me.  The russet-haired something woman.  And before all you IC Fascists react, this was damn near 4 years ago so chill :x.

Maybe I just overgeneralize but somehow when I see a female in the silk-clad concept you describe, Clegane, I have more of a tendancy to roll my eyes than when a male does it.  I'm a terrible person I know.

[Tamarin]

This is probably a standard reaction, but if you want someone to grow up to be a militaristic leader, make a female warrior (or something), train them for a couple dozen RL days, get support from a couple of high-profile nobles/templars, raise an army, and pull a Joan-of-Arc on someone's ass.  I would gladly fight alongside anyone if that ever happened.  I think it would be the coolest thing ever if a PC...without imm influence...manged to garner enough support to wage a war or battle on someone/somewhere.

[Clegane]

While there is a certain degree of romantic appeal in such a concept, I think it is entirely unplausible in Armageddon.

Becuse the 'virtual world' is so integral to the scope of the whole scene, a PC-initiated, PC-led, non-staffed mass-military movement of any sort would be extremely difficult. Really, anyplace worth 'invading' is going to have a virtual population of ten times even the largest PC army one could assemble.  Even your avergae, run-of-the-mill desert tribe is going to have at LEAST fifty-sixty warriors and twice as many non-combatants in its virtual population.

Any chance of success would pretty much require you to muster the ENTIRE online PC population, north and south, unite them under one banner...and then still have to Wish up to get an Imm to handle the situation for you.

An amusing concept, yes....but absolutely unplayable in this mud.

[Tamarin]

Well, the actual battle and NPC soldiers would require imm support, yes, but the initial concept and overall battle plan could feasibly be drafted by a player.  The final product would definitely require imm support, though, for sure.

[Petra]

How is it unplausible?  If I am a Lieutenant in the Allanaki militia and we are about to invade some raider outpost I think we have more than enough people to make that possible.  There have been countless military ventures which have taken place in Arm, though, no, they are not an every day occurence, but the actions which span entire game years that lead up to the event are what it's all about.  All I am saying is it would be nice to see women take on roles such as: Davaz, Thrain, Hekorz, Kroz (?), Dgal, Kul, etc., rather than the age-old house servant female who walks around with 3 NPC guards, dressed exactly like a noble except for the signet ring.

[Bestatte]

Just to tie in to the original point, none of this relates at all to "special app" characters. Those characters (such as the *templar* Ishann and the *noble* Lawrence) were already influential by definition of their titles upon character creation. They didn't have to work to get the silver ring or templar's robe. It comes with the character.

Discount any special app characters - the merchant family members, the nobles, templars, because none of them start out as "just commoners" and work/earn/sleep their way into the position.

Removing all those types from the calculation, I would offer, again based on my observation, that those female characters who have earned higher status than the "average" commoner have done so either by a) actually/virtually sleeping their way to the top, or b) encouraged the perception by others that a) happened. In other words - they used their femininity as a tool or weapon to get to the position.  I would also state, to be fair, that femininity might only get someone TO that position, but those who maintained it did so via the more gender-neutral intelligence, cunning, planning, and wit.

As I stated previously, the primary issue I have with any of this, is that these role models encourage others to do the same thing - or try to do it. And right now, there are just SO many hot babes with silky hair, skin with only the most obscure scars, silk-clad, slipper-wearing dainty women in the game it's just...old. Done to death, you can't compete with each other so just give it the fuck up and try something new, please.

And if you (the reader, whoever you are) think I'm talking about you personally, heh - read my last paragraph. There's so many of you, and you all look alike to me, so sure I might be talking about you. Or I might be talking to the OTHER one. Or the OTHER one. Or maybe I'm talking to all y'all. Who knows - I can't tell one from the other anymore.

/rant

[flurry]

I don't find the lack of female combat PCs to be any more of a problem than the lack of male non-combat PCs.

Yeah there's a fair amount of female PCs that fall into certain overdone roles, but that's true with male PCs too.  How many male gruff hunters who don't take no shit from no one types are there?  I don't think we're lacking there either.   Sure, it would be nice if there were a bit more balance, and people chose to take roles that were off the beaten path.  I just don't understand why the blame for lack of balance always is placed on the delicate Krath-splashed shoulders of these particular PCs.

[flurry]

Now.  Ideally, armag is a sort of gender-neutral place from what I've gathered.  Men and women are equal statistically and socially, and as such, nasty issues like sexual discrimination aren't an issue.  

Of course, this is not the case.  
<snip>
A great example is the way that powerful, self-made female PCs are treated.  They're HATED - way more than powerful, self-made male PCs.  Has anybody ever accused a powerful male PC of sleeping his way to the top?

Yeah, I agree with you.   Though I haven't seen that too much in game.  I remember when someone brought up how female PCs are often trashed on IRC and their sex-lives speculated about.   I just found this very sad, and indicative of some of the attitudes people need to get past to roleplay things in this area realistically.  Although it definitely made me glad to not have witnessed it personally, because I like the community here and I don't want that affected by a few sexist mouth-breathers.

Going beyond that, if the genders were truly equal.. wouldn't the idea of gender as we know it actually not even -exist-?!  If people don't differentiate between man and woman, then ascribing certain gender roles to them would never have happened in the first place.  And then, concepts like marriage, sexuality (if there's no social difference between a man and a woman, how can you be gay?), even monogamy.  

I guess I think of the genders in Zalanthas as just balanced stats-wise, but  still different beyond anatomy.   Just not as different as on Earth, in terms of gender roles.  

I remember with a previous character, seeing another PC bemoan the fact that he'd been beaten in the sparring circle by a woman.   That, I think, doesn't make sense in Zalanthas.  

If someone is gay, the reaction is 'I'm okay with that' most of the time.  Being okay with it shouldn't be an ISSUE if there was true gender equality.

I agree completely.   I've said this before, but I think the reaction would be more like the reaction to someone telling you they're left-handed.

SO - my behind this long winded blathering is... what do you think about this?  Am I full of it or is this actually something worth discussing?  What should armag's conception of gender ACTUALLY be?  Or is how it works right now alright?  Can it even be changed?

Honestly right now I'd say it's mostly okay, but definitely worth discussing.   I say mostly because it's only occasionally that I see some gender stereotyping/attitudes from our world spill through, but it definitely happens.  

And I do think it can be changed, but also we have to be mindful that we're always getting new players, and it takes them a little while to adjust.  I think that's part of the reason we sometimes see new players with PCs that fall into certain stereotypes.

[naatok]

I find the lack of hermaphrodites, cross-dressers and other folk who are slightly more than noticeably different from the neighbors....to be disturbing.  

Where is that meaty muscled male warrior, lopping heads off with a sharp bone scimitar while wearing an elegant silk evening gown, stockings and high-heeled shoes?

Where is that dapper-looking, short-haired woman in silk frock-coat and trousers commanding a company of rough and tumble mercenaries who are, for the most part, deathly afraid of pissing her off?

Of course, these are...ah...meant to be radical extremes.  I understand it is difficult or impossible to wear a lovely evening gown (or silk frock coat...especially one with tails) over a full set of armor.

I know this post sounds frivilous, but within it is a kernel of real, naughty chimp concern.

[Anarchy]

Where is that dapper-looking, short-haired woman in silk frock-coat and trousers commanding a company of rough and tumble mercenaries who are, for the most part, deathly afraid of pissing her off?

I'll do that one!

[Delirium]

*mumbles something incoherrent about a warrior bardess in silks*