How rich is rich

[Deathtakeusall]

I was just rounding how rich is rich
because i am a longneeck and can make up to 400 sid an ic day

Am i richer than 'tek

[Lazloth]

I think when your bank account starts to near 500k, you can begin to think yourself affluent.

[Lasakar]

Now I have depressions...

[Kalden]

Rampant inflation in Armageddon. Some people think fifty sid(which can buy you a nice meal at a fine restaurant) should be a lot, others think it's nothing. Money doesn't have the power that it should have. Lots of people scoff at fifty sid as if it's absolutely nothing.

Everybody needs food and water to survive. You take your average commoner: he doesn't have l33t pickpocketing skills, or picklock skills. He's not a master warrior or a master hunter, and he doesn' t know how to brew poisons, either. He mines sid for a living, and occassionally uses his muscle in building projects. He probably scrounges by, eats travel cakes every day, and when he's robbed, he nearly starves. You could make this guy do -anything- for 1k sid, probably a lot less.

Realistically, your character has to eat and drink every day, probably more than that, but that's taken care of "virtually" and never deducted from your account, so people live very cheaply. There's no fear of starving if you don't work hard.

[Carnage]

5k is a good amount. 50k is filthy, stinking rich. Money doesn't add much more to your characters though. I've had filthy rich ones and things started to drop off in the action, in my opinion.

[Kalden]

Heh, 500k is more than I can imagine. There's a huge barrier between the poor and the rich, and the PCs are usually either middle-class or rich.

[grog]

I've had characters that would have licked your shoes clean and performed certain stud services for your diseased old mother for 50 'sid.


Edit:  If she was elven, it would have been an extra 50.

[X-D]

Heh, want to see a char that money means something too, be a runner:)

[Delirium]

Meh, a few hundred saved up in the bank is probably better than most VNPC commoners. Me, I like surviving from day to day. Having only a few extra hundred sids in the bank is fun, IMHO. Fifty 'sid is enough to survive for a few IC days, nothing to be scoffed at.

And yeah, desert elves care little for 'sid, just tangible items that they can trade and use. What's 'sid worth, really? You can't eat it or drink it or fight with it. Only thing you can do with it is trade, which is only important to a select few d-elves.

But if you want rich, a rich commoner would probably be 5-10k. A rich merchant would probably be 50k or so. Noble or templar would probably be 400-500k. It's all comparative.

[mansa]

Rich is more than just the ammount of coins in your bank account.  It's the silver around your neck, and the wagon in your estate.  It's the food you eat every day and the type of spice you smoke in the Trader's Inn.

-That- is rich.

However.  Compaired to the 'rinth:

100 coins is worth dying over.

[sacac]

lol.. yeah.. My elves go to the grocery store and say 12 'sid for a sack of flour!

And it says somewhere that the average commone ronly makes about 300 coin a year.. You know? Rich for them would be 400 coins.

[Morrolan]

Heh, want to see a char that money means something too, be a runner:)

No shit, X-D, no shit.

[My 2 sids]

I think the keyword here would be if one -has- a bank account.  My guess is most people in the world A.  Have to use every sid they have to servive.  and B.  Don't have an actual, regular paying job.

What people have to keep in mind is how -very little- % of the population is represented by PCs.  And even out of the PC population, many play the lower-upper crust (servents of well known houses and nobility) or upper-crust (family members) or nobility themselves (who really, imoho, should know very little about money at all)

[jmordetsky]

Depends on the Char. My current char used to be a lone scrab hunter. Which was worth about a piece of raw meat once a week.

One day a member of the militia gave him 50 sid to bury a body in the sand and told him he could keep whatever was on the corpse.  He ended up with about 75 sid and new, albeit now slightly bloodied, cloak and was happier then a pig in pig poop.

Later on he got a job with an affluent house and is making almost 7x that a month, has a kank, a weapons collection, and is thinking about renting a place.

He thinks he's bigger then bill gates.

But is he rich? Hell no.

[Anonymous]

You people who hold onto your money suck.  SPEND SPEND SPEND.

I've died with 30k in the bank.  No fun.

[Cuusardo]

A character is rich when he or she has enough money that they can't find anything to spend it on.

[Dan]

I thought my character was rich when he couldn't possibly carry any more coins, unbelievably heavy with them.

[Petra]

I was just rounding how rich is rich
because i am a longneeck and can make up to 400 sid an ic day

Am i richer than 'tek

All the elves in the world, probably, could pool their resources and worth in raw obsidian together and still be unable to match Tektolnes' wealth.  Any race whose psyche is founded on theft as an art form, however, surely has a fair amount of its members who fall into the 'rich' category, it's just their riches are comparatively rich.  I recall an NPC in a Labyrinth elf tribe who openly wore a bronze necklace.  While a single metal trinket is nothing to Tektolnes, its surely something everyone, including a nobleman, would gladly long for and covet.  In the Labyrinth, this takes an even stronger message.  You don't wear such things unless you can get away with it.

I think from the perspective of the truly rich, the nobility, it isn't difficult for them to forget their oppulence though, since they are surrounded by abject poverty every time they step foot outside their estate.  There are very distinct differences amongst the classes, and the richer you go, the less of them there are.  I imagine the vast majority of life inside and out of a city-state is comprised of poverty.  The next step up are the few commoners who have figured a way to earn enough wealth (for their status in society) and get away it, without being harassed by the oppressive templars.  After that you've got the merchant monopolies, and though even their wealth, compared to nobility, is diminished, they're still oppulent enough to be envied by many.  Then the nobles, however small in percentage compared to the populace of Zalanthas, have got to be unquestionably rich by any comparison, on a level easily noticed by all.

If you found a way to make 100K, though, in the course of a week, maybe through some buy/sell tactic, cruising across the wastes to Cenyr and back, or something like that, I don't really think that's realistic -- not if you're doing it every reboot and amassing a near infinite fortune.  So if you said you're an elf who could make more obsidian than a noble's stipend is every single month (not that that's what you said), I'd have to question the realism behind how you're accomplishing that, because that's not rich, that's just OOC.

[Cuusardo]

Why in the world would Tektolnes be concerned about such things as money?  He likely has no need for it.

[SailorMars]

400 'sid a day, if you're being serious, is a lot.

Piece of advice: Use it for all manner of amusement. Remember, buying stuff is just one use for 'sid. Money talks very loudly to people as well. So much better to spend the coin on memorable experiences than die with a phat account saying Merry Xmas to Nenyuk.

[creeper386]

Rich is relative. If you have what you want and don't need, you're rich. That ussually changes as someone gets more money, but sometimes not.

If you WERE rich. It probably would take at least having the same things you used to have to consider yourself rich again.

What's rich in the eyes of the common people? I'd say everything from someone who can keep himself fed, clothed and has his own place to the highest ranking nobles.

I doubt the commoners think of their leaders by monetary means. At least not in 'nak or Tuluk. SHRUG.


Creeper

[Seeker]

A character is rich in Armaggedon the moment he isn't starving and has two coins left to rub together.

Seeker

[Smooth]

Why in the world would Tektolnes be concerned about such things as money? He likely has no need for it.

The man in the tower has a huge army to feed, clothe, and shelter. He's also got noble houses and projects of his own to fund, I would assume. He's got the biggest, baddest city on his side of the Known World to run, maintain, and care for.

Why would any other dictator need money, Cuusardo? Tek needs the same. And any of it he doesn't need, I'm sure he would acknowledge that he simply likes in excess.

You know. Money, power, respect and all that.

[aeshyw]

The richest PC characters in the game tend to spend huge amounts of their 'sid on everything from things for themselves to bribes, influence, bounties, houses, concubines, slaves...etc.  It isn't rare to see nearly empty bank accounts at times, despite massive amounts of wealth held in other tangible and non-tangible assets.

I think the Armageddon definition of rich could be 'having enough 'sid to simply do and acquire whatever you want'.

[Carnage]

Well, Tektolnes is completely in control of the 'sid. It comes from Allanaki mines, it's produced in Allanak, and they control how much or how little enters the market through the merchant houses. I'd presume that by slowing down how much is given out, the worth of the coin would be raised. If much more was given out though I think it would take a lot longer for people to notice this.

It pays to control money.

[Gar]

Just as in real life, rich is relative.  My inlaws have a decent amount of wealth.  After living close to them over the years I have come to the opinion (which they hold) that they are comfortable, not rich.  My side of the family however is very impressed with their money.  They'd call them rich, as I would have at one point.  It really depends on your perspective.

I've always played my characters like I am in real life, careful with my money.  I sock away all the extra sids I can get, saving for something I'll probably never need.  I keep swearing that I'm going to have a character that spends all his sids like a drunken sailor whenver he gets flush, creating incentive for him to go off and make the next score  One that never enters the bank, carrying everything on him.  That's my idea anyway, although my frugal personality is hard to fight.

[Bogre]

The difference between different noble's and riches is very distinct. If you can get more sid then that stinking opposing house muscling in on your business, then you can control them through economics, more or less.

Dictators/Rulers always have need of money, even if its not for themselves, and just an incentive for people to follow them.

[Angela Christine]

I keep swearing that I'm going to have a character that spends all his sids like a drunken sailor whenver he gets flush, creating incentive for him to go off and make the next score  One that never enters the bank, carrying everything on him.  That's my idea anyway, although my frugal personality is hard to fight.

Easy fix, just set up your character in one of the many places that doesn't have a bank.  The bank only has, what, two well known and easily accessible branches in the entire known world?  If you don't live near one of those branches, you probably wouldn't want to keep your money with them.  Sure, if you live in Red Storm then 'nak isn't really that far away, but between storms, critters, gith, and the gates of both towns being closed 1/3 of the time you can't be sure that you would be able to get your hands on your cash in a hurry if you needed to.  And do you really trust those Nakkies with your money?  I wouldn't.

I've also met characters (mostly elves) that simply did not trust that Nenyuk would correctly keep track of their money and hand it over upon request.  Sure, OOCly you know the code isn't likely to screw you, but ICly you can't be certain those Nenyuk bastards won't skim or steal your money.  If your elf, half-elf, half-giant, 'rinther, or other unwashed scum claims that they had 1000 'sid with Nenyuk, and Nenyuk says, "no, this person never had an account with us" or "no, they only had 85 coins here," who do you think the law is going to believe?  It isn't like they give out passbooks or reciepts, so you have no way to prove how much money you gave them.

Once you find a way to avoid banks, avoiding wealth is easy.  Obsidian coins don't weigh much each, but when you get thousands of them they really start weighing you down.  

For most characters there isn't a good reason to keep more than a couple thousand sid in the bank, even if they use banks.  Unless you are saving up for a big ticket item spend your money, enjoy it while you've got it.  Buy a new weapon, just to see what it's like.  Buy (and use) overpriced linen strips, (which for some reason cost waaay more if they are called bandages then if they were entire bolts of fabric) even if you don't need them.   Get some cool tattoos.  Get drunk.  Become a spice addict.  Buy new pants just because you like the color, regardless of their coded attributes, then sell them a few months later when they get raggedy.  Be a slave to fasion, buying a new outfit every month when Kadius rotates their inventory.  Buy one of each variety of mount available, and decide which one is your favorite.  Get one of each color of kank, so that your kank always matches your outfit.  Let it get around that you are into exotic mounts, and you'll pay some excessive amount for a trained gwoshi, wild born kank, or other rare wild mounts.  Take up crafting, but buy your supplies rather than collecting them yourself.

In real life you may be careful with money, but in real life you probably don't carry a sword everywhere you go, routinely get into fights where somebody dies, or ride to work on a giant insect.  Live a little.

As for being rich, I think spending money makes your richer than having money.  You don't get intrest or dividends on cash in the Nenyuk bank.  Cash on hand can easily be stollen away by raiders or pickpockets.  Rich people own stuff.  Stuff like houses, wagons, shops, and slaves.  Rich people have employees.  Rich people have influence.  Money in the bank helps, because it takes time to save up enough money to buy a hut, stall or wagon of your own, but money that just lays there doing nothing is useless.


Angela Christine

[Rindan]

I think of Allanaki (or any rich person for that matter) rich the same way I think of rich people in the old U.S.S.R.  In the USSR, if some guy came up to you and gave you a fortune, you would still be poor.  Simply having money would not overcome the fact that all things were bought with politics.  Stores closed to you that have western goods would not suddenly open up.  You would still wait in line for food, and it would still be the same bland crap everyone else gets.  You wouldn't be able to buy a car.  Money is only one component of true wealth once you leave a capitalist system.

A commoner will never, be as rich as a noble for this reason.  No mater how much money a commoner has, the commoner still could never get the same things a noble could, and in truth the noble could probably find a way to simply take the commoners money.  That is not to say that some commoners might not get a pile of 'sid and live comfortable lives, but they will never be truly rich.  The only ways to truly get rich are inside of merchant houses, noble houses, and to a small extent by living outside of the city states.

You just need to realize that wealth is not something that is purely based upon money.  If you gave a poor man with reasonable intelligence on the streets of US a billion dollars, he would be considered rich by every account and be able to gain pretty much anything any other billionaire could gain.  Do the same on Zalanthas and at the best that person could live an easier life without work, but would never be able to get the things a noble or ranking merchant house member with the same (or even less) money could get.  Politics is as important as the actual money.

[Delirium]

The most fun I ever had with a character was one that would get a couple thousand 'sids in the bank and blow it all on spice, tattoos, and fancy silks. Then she'd start running low, scramble frantically for her next score, then once flush again, blow it all once more. And on and on. Yet at one point she was the richest character I've ever had. And at one point she had less than 100 sids even though she was dressed head to toe in silks and covered in tattoos.

It was great.

[Twilight]

Rindan, if you were that rich in Armageddon, you could buy your own House.  An instance would be Delann buying Kohmar.  That was a PC thing.

I think it is dependent on where you are but:
Rinth dweller - 100 sid and you are rich because it is enough to eat on

Commoner - 10,000 sid and you are rich because you don't worry about rent, or food, or many pleasures in life

Merchant - 50k - 100k and either your own wagon or house/shop and you are rich because you have enough money and resources to have your own reasonably sized business

Noble - You are born into a top tier House, or are a senator or house head of any house because you simply kick ass

Templar - You are rich, even if you don't have a sid to your name, because you can make the next elf you see give you half of his sid

[Akaramu]

Pretty, but starving girl approaches the filthy rich house member, holding her nearly collapsing stomach:

Her: "How about some company for 50 sids?"
Him: "50 sids? Ha! I have a lot more to spend today."
Him: "Wait, what exactly do you consider company?"
Her: (with fluttering eyelashes) and already daydreaming of a loaf of bread: "Myself.. anything you like."
Him: (turning his back) "Nah. 50 sid is a lot of money, and I dont know if you are worth it."

In that very moment, she wished she was an assassin.

[Akaramu]

...and then there was stunned silence.

*hums a happy tune*

[Trenidor]

IMO the people that work for houses (Including runners) are overpaid wimps.
As it is stated somewhere that the average commoner recives around 300 sid a year, people that make 100 sid a month plus free food should be shot! Twice!

 Here's the math of a commoner that works -INSIDE THE WALLS- (theres a huge difference here because of water cost)

Note: Said commoner is the average herb picker who on average finds an herb worth picking once a week which usually goes for around 5 sid at the local distributer.

        21 weeks x 5 sid = 105 sid a month

        105 income - 80 monthly food costs (eats a travel cake once every two weeks and drinks water around that time)

        that leaves 25 sid to keep in his pocket for when he's starving/ finds a cool herb cutting knife down in the elven market

       poof the next month comes:

       Said commoner earns more than average this time on one of his pickings and lands the big 150 this month (OH YEAH!!! cha-ching)

       150 - 80 food

       70 - 20 celebritory dinner (earned by making extra for this month

       50 + 3 sid from last month after buying a new knife

       53 - 50 Bandage price (had a brush in with a duskhorn)

        = 3 sid (big shrug with no increase from previous month)

       Poof next month:

       Poor said commoner...this month he was stucken in bed from his injury for 2 weeks, after going back to work he was quickly faced with hunger pains when he didn't find herbs for the next 5 weeks. This month our said commoner only recived 70 sid.

       73 -  70 food

       Hunger pains included for that couple weeks without food


        Good news though, next month he was asked to brush up the foreigner from allanak and was paid 200 that month + herb pickings ( GO SAID COMMONER!!!) :twisted:

[creeper386]

As it is stated somewhere that the average commoner recives around 300 sid a year, people that make 100 sid a month plus free food should be shot! Twice!

So the people that work for clans still make 300 a year with 100 sid a month, but they get free food, and water.

Runners are wimps? I'm guessing your talking about Bynners. Only orginaztion I've heard use runners. Sure they get free food, but it's not mekillot steaks. They get the beat kicked out of them all the time. They shovel crap. They DON'T get payed, and they have a slim chance of surviving their first real mission! Yeah. Overpaid wimps.

Anyways... If PCs didn't make as much as they tend to when not in a clan and not hunting/foraging/cooking food. They can very well spend almost all their money on eating just travel cakes. For me... I don't think the things that PCs eat and buy are even the low end stuff most people eat and use. As if it were it's unlikely anyone could afford anything, and not even the templarate could stop criminal activity from destroying the city... Or if they did there'd be mass starvation followed up by most likely some plagues, and on and on and on.

I'd say that PCs just commonly live in the more uppercrust of society. Even if you want to be a poor beggar that just barely scrapes by you'd probably have to make more then the other richer working virtual people. That'd be my guess. Especially where food is situated. Honestly, I don't see why the taverns would even CARRY food at the prices they must need to sell in order to make a profit. A small meal costing a months pay? Nah. Thats alright. Except maybe the Trader's that caters to the VERY rich... I don't see any of the taverns selling their food at the price they advertise.


Creeper who has complained about this before, and will again most likely.

[Lasakar]

I earn between 100 and 400 Sids per day, without being a member of a house. Its hard and dangerous work (and legal! :wink:). But most of the money is spend for better equipment and replenish. Sometimes I buy pure luxury. And the rest of the money will be put on my account.

So I have no problem if somebody earns a lot more or nothing. Most PC could make money out there and don't need to cry here. It's like real life...

[Trenidor]

Good Point Creeper.

Maybe when they say: "The average citizen earns around 300 sid a year" that they mean 300 sid extra pay that is counted income at the end of the year....

I'm just saying though that I'd like to see the pay amounts decreased for some of the houses (some places are okay where they're at  :wink: ) Zalanthas is supposed to be a frikkin hard life; most likely, all commoners have suffered hunger pains at one time or the other, even the rich commoners had to start somewhere or else they'd be called nobles.

Maybe I should revise my statement about eatting just trabel cakes and water around once every two weeks (some people might only drink that much, it could vary depending on how much you are actually online with your character) Anyway, I'm going to restate the thing about travel cakes

If you ever go to the smaller taverns and bars around tuluk (not sanctuary, they are over priced and are for rich merchants) you will notice that you can get a meal for around 5 - 15 sid and something to drink for 15-20 sid just at the smaller taverns. Thats 20 sid for a complete meal, and most people don't need a complete meal all the time.

Zalanthans are Stonger than Earthens, they must have a high endurance rate that allows them to not be so hungry or thirst as much as us normal earthens. Also, I think that alot of us think OOC that the average life of a zalanthan is about the same as our average lives [insert where you live].
Evedently you are in a higher like seociety because you -have- computer access, and other things that allow people to be lazyish upper class people. I'm sure that the life of the poorer people in the United States is going to be better off then the richer commoner in Old Testement Isreal / Bible times.

[grog]

I've had characters who were more impressed with the free food in some clans then any of the 'sid they were paid.  The cheapest beer in Allanak is about 6-9 'sid, two to three beers an evening, and even more on weekends.   But we will even it out to an even 2 beers a day, makes it about 2772 'sid a month, and that's just for some cheap ass beer!  Now since a lot of that drinking is virtual, I assume it's mainly virtual funds, but still most months I still have to be dry for at least a few weeks.  

So in my character's opinion, he's rich when he can afford to spend 20 to 40 'sid on the good stuff, and impress pretty girls by buying them expensive drinks.

[Angela Christine]

I'm just saying though that I'd like to see the pay amounts decreased for some of the houses

The problem with that is that you can make more than 300 per IC year by going a few leagues from the city to collect stone or wood to sell.  There are a variety of activities that bring in piles of 'sid, unfortunately most of them are suicidally dangerous, but you can't have everything.  Being in a clan should be better than being an independant, and in some ways it is, but in other ways it isn't.  

The biggest boon of a clan is a safe place to sleep (not that they'll let you do anything dangerous enough that you need to sleep).  

The second thing they supply is a place to store your stuff.  These places are usually a little safer than a cheap apartment.  I get stuff stolen either way, but in a clan compound they usually don't take absolutely everything, just the stuff they can actually use.  I've lost at least a few items in every clan I've used storage space in.  I haven't lost my stuff every time I rented my own place, but when I was robbed they usually took everything including the fixtures.  So on the whole clan storage seems to be superior, at least if you can't afford a place with a really good lock.

Some clans have a free stable.  This sounds cool, but in practice it is pretty worthless if it is the "open" style of stable rather than the ticketed style.  I've been in two clans that had open stables, in both other people with access to the stable assumed that all the animals there "belonged" to the clan and anyone could take them.  Take them accross the known world and leave them in a stable in another town if they wanted to.  Fine, I'll keep paying to keep _my_ animals in the public stable.  I don't care if you take my kank after I die, but keep your mitts off until then.  There is nothing like an open stable to make me wish my character was literate, so I could leave a note on the kank telling people it belongs to me!  

Free food and/or water.  This is nice, it's a perk.  Usually as an independant I can make enough money that I'm rarely short on food and water, but it is comforting to know that it will be there even if I'm having an unlucky week.  I did have an independant die of dehydration once, but only because someone stole my kank, my money, and most of my equipment including my damned boots.  The recent increase in thirst rates has made this perk even more valuable.

I think I've solved the riddle of the 300 a year income.  It's an average, 300 a year per person.  Some people are very old, very young, or very sick, and can't make 300 year.  They might not make any money at all.  Suppose you have a family with a mom, dad, grandma, brother and sister.  Dad makes 600 a year as a stonecutter.  Mom makes 800 a year as a guard.  Grandma looks after the home and the kids, and together they do enough basketweaving to bring in another 200 a year.  So the family of 5 makes 1600 a year, just over 300 per person.  They rent a cheap 300 a month room in a tenement, and since there is usually someone home  it doesn't get robbed too often.  The kids have been chewing on the table legs, so even when the house is empty the furnature isn't worth stealing.  

PCs rarely have non-virtual dependants.  They don't have kids or grandparents back home that are depending on them, and they don't have a deadbeat brother-in-law that is always borrowing money.  Every 'sid they earn they can spend on themselves, and if they get food and water as part of their job, then they can spend every 'sid on luxuries.  That is rare.  Most people do have dependants, because most people are not childless orphans whose entire family were massacred by gith. :roll:  

PCs don't just make more money than VNPCs, they also have fewer expenses.  Most don't bother to pay the rent.  Most don't have dependants.  Most never pay a cent in taxes (they may pay fines if they get on the bad side of a Templar, but not taxes.)  Many will wear the same pair of pants for years and years, if they live that long, and see nothing with wearing heavy armor (or a fancy silk and lace outfit) every hour of the day and night for their entire lives no matter what activities they are engaged in.  Since they avoid reasonable expenses, they have a large disposable income.


Angela Christine

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

AC makes a great point about PC's lives, in that they don't typically roleplay out having kids, or a home, etc. She also makes a point while not actually making one: PC house robbing is pathetically in style, and it is very annoying. That said...I don't expect it to be fixxed, because if it were, what would burglars do?

[Trenidor]

The problem with that is that you can make more than 300 per IC year by going a few leagues from the city to collect stone or wood to sell.  There are a variety of activities that bring in piles of 'sid, unfortunately most of them are suicidally dangerous, but you can't have everything.  Being in a clan should be better than being an independant, and in some ways it is, but in other ways it isn't.  

<- That in my opinion is power gaming. People should have to go father into the desert to get things, occationally it's alright to walk out and notice the joylits sitting next to the road, but most the time I'm sure stone collectors will go deep into their "lucky" spot that consits of a large pile of rocks, then dig through the pile for what you need. The problem with "lucky" spots is that they are such a long walk. If they weren't hard to get at, then all the VNPCs would go there and they'd all be rich making the 300 average raise to 1,000.

[crymerci]

First of all, just because you can make 400 'sid a day doesn't mean you should.  You should consider whether or not you're playing realistically.  Of course it's possible that it is realistic and not powergaming, but you should just think about it.  There are some jobs where you can make that much money per day because you're not likely to live more than a few days (or you can only work a few days out of many), so in that case it's a reasonable reward vs. risk.

On another note, I've played a higher-tier commoner who worked her way through the ranks of a (wealthy) house and when she died she was making more than some lower-tier nobles and templars.  

However, most of the wealthiest commoner PCs are, I believe, independents, which makes little sense in the scope of the gameworld.  It should be possible for exceptional individuals to do this, but not as many as do currently.

[grog]

However, most of the wealthiest commoner PCs are, I believe, independents, which makes little sense in the scope of the gameworld.  It should be possible for exceptional individuals to do this, but not as many as do currently.

PCs are, without exception, exceptional individuals compared to the game world as a whole, that's because only a small percentage of people like playing characters that can be outdone and out thought by VNPCs.

[Naughty Monkey]

Bah!  Who needs 'sid?!
All yer needs is a sharp cutlass, a trusty kank an' a bottle 'r two o' Sunrunner Whiskey!

[crymerci]

However, most of the wealthiest commoner PCs are, I believe, independents, which makes little sense in the scope of the gameworld.  It should be possible for exceptional individuals to do this, but not as many as do currently.

PCs are, without exception, exceptional individuals compared to the game world as a whole, that's because only a small percentage of people like playing characters that can be outdone and out thought by VNPCs.

I agree that PCs are, and probably should be, exceptional.  That is to say, exceptional examples of a typical commoner.  Not exceptions to the rules.

Ok, here's my pet peeve.  Most commoners (virtual or PC) don't have great prospects for financial security.  To them, the possibility of a good job with one of the Houses would seem like the greatest blessing they had ever been offered.  However, I constantly see people telling nobles that they'd rather be independent, or that they're going to "shop around" for the best offer.  That's bullshit.  A noble offers you a job, your eyes should tear up and you should kiss the hem of their cloak.  So why doesn't this happen?  Because once you know the ropes (through previous characters' experiences) you know that the road to wealth is paved with shit from the latrines followed by going independent.  Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit.  It's not that it's ooc for a mercenary to make good money.  It's not.  But it is ooc to choose the uncertain life of a mercenary over a cushy job with a noble or merchant House.

[Tamarin]

For the most part, I would agree with this....except those who want to stay with a mercenary group...because they earn a -ton- of money...

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

To once more make Noble House Employment craved and lusted after, one would suggest that Noble House Employers be more selective and less open to folks who would not fit the mold of a Noble House Employee.

[Delirium]

Yeah. I must admit, seeing every Dick, Jane, and Tom - who are covered in filth and have MUCH less than desirable manners - be snapped up by noble houses, just because the Houses are desperate for PCs, has begun to make me want to start smacking people upside the head and shout "THINK!"

[Tamarin]

To once more make Noble House Employment craved and lusted after, one would suggest that Noble House Employers be more selective and less open to folks who would not fit the mold of a Noble House Employee.

Um...raise salaries.

[Delirium]

Salaries are ridiculously high as it is... especially considering all the side benefits.

[Tamarin]

I know, but I'm greedy.  And I know how much nobles have...especially the upper echelons..

[crymerci]

For the most part, I would agree with this....except those who want to stay with a mercenary group...because they earn a -ton- of money...

Sure, if you're already with the Byn and you want to become a career Bynner, definitely.  But to have an offer pending from a noble house and turn it down to join the Byn is ridiculous.

Yeah, it's equally silly that nobles grovel for employees.  But if it wasn't more profitable to be an independent, they wouldn't have to.  If people were realistic about the commoner's awe of nobility and wealth, they wouldn't have to.

[Delirium]

I agree, Crymerci, except there's one thing that sorta sucks:

When you're a rather sporadic player, myself for example - Sometimes I have the time to sit down for a regular mud-all-day session, and sometimes I don't play for days - or if you enjoy the less 'structured' roles, being an independant is probably much more preferrable. But heaven help you if you happened to make a human, no matter how grungy or ill-mannered - you'll have nobles slobbering all over you trying to hire you, and.. well, what can you say ICly that doesn't sound completely ridiculous? "Oh, you're offering to clean me up, give me regular food, a spiffy uniform, AND pay me more 'sid a month than most commoners make in a year? Well gee, I just don't know.."

But yet, you didn't want to be in a clan, either because it's not the sort of role you enjoy, or because you won't be able to log in at regular periods of time to RP with others. What then?

[Angela Christine]

Ok, here's my pet peeve.  Most commoners (virtual or PC) don't have great prospects for financial security.  To them, the possibility of a good job with one of the Houses would seem like the greatest blessing they had ever been offered.  However, I constantly see people telling nobles that they'd rather be independent, or that they're going to "shop around" for the best offer.  That's bullshit.  A noble offers you a job, your eyes should tear up and you should kiss the hem of their cloak.  

It is an OOC problem on both sides.  Nobles want to have PC staff, because VNPC staff are dull.  VNPCs are good at being "invisible" the way a good servant should be, but that is pretty much their only virtue.  There are only so many PCs available, so they approach PCs that really are not acceptable for the job.  Is it totally IC for a noble to be approaching random commoners and asking, "who do you work for, would you like a job?"  No.  You'd probably have to go through channels and possibly work in a lower position for a long time before you even got to talk to a noble.  The infastructure doesn't exist for that to be feasable, and few players would want to play a maid or some other kind of low servant for 6 months before they got the chance to become a personal assistant or aide.

The people playing commoner PCs had OOC goals for what kind of role they wanted to play.  If the player seriously doesn't want a noble house employee PC, then it may not be a good idea for them to take the job.  What are you going to do, play the character for another week, wrap up thier "happy ending" and retire the character because you want to play a gritty mercenary or a desperate independant, not a pampered servant or a pet in a gilded cage?  You have to be really ugly and uncouth to avoid these job offers, not just average.  It is easier if you aren't human, but most average commoners -are- human.  The number of PC half-elves is probably a little inflated, partly because half-elf is the easiest way to avoid easy job offers.  If a half-elf wants a good job she's going to have to work for it, or at least work to conceal what she is.  Other non-humans have varying degrees of difficulty.  

Of course all the non-human PCs reduce the available pool of acceptable humans to hire, so any humans left unattatched are pursued even more vigorously.  Arrrgh!  


AC

[creeper386]

You want to know whats worse. I'd think the easiest way to avoid working for a noble house was to play a tribal, born outside and currently living in the city.

Not even that works. I got told once that that 'can be worked around.' I was like, BULLSHIT, I made this character to AVOID noble houses so BACK THE FUCK UP YOU STUPID ANNOYING PERSON! Well not really. But I DID politely decline.

Anyways, I REALLY think sometimes nobles need to be kepts on a shorter leash in some areas that they seem to be giving completely roam. Or at least better guidelines. It shouldn't be every day a gritty Bynner gets cleaned up and employed by a noble house. It might happen from time to time if that bynner or filthy commoner or what not could be VERY useful, but shouldn't be every time.

And for Tek's sake, if someone isn't even city-born ... I think the only thing that tends to be not openly employed is other races and 'rinthers. I'd say just wait for people to come along or clean them up alittle before throwing them in the fancy uniform, and calling them an employee.


Creeper

[Quirk]

I strongly agree with the last several posters. Really, sid has nothing to do with this.

How often should a noble offer a dirty mercenary a place as a House guard? Hardly ever, I'd say; perhaps a mercenary from a higher social class who fell on hard times, or perhaps an officer - certainly not Joe Runner. If Noble Houses aren't going to recognise that these people are not valid targets to be hired, then the PCs being offered a job with the Noble House have to come up with some excuse to enforce realism. The first and most serious breach of realistic RP here is frequently on the side of the noble, and excuses made by the other character serve only to prevent this one-off breach from turning into a long-term embarrassment. Of course, anyone who could legitimately consider such an offer saying they want to "shop round" needs their head examined ICly.

The problem is that a fairly limited number of people come into game wanting to be House guards. Certainly, the numbers are limited compared to the number of House guard places there are. In Allanak there are three Noble Houses, all of whom want guards. For these guards to have decent chances of meeting up with each other to train and RP we can probably assume at least three guards will be needed per House. That's a minimum of nine places open in 'Nak alone. Of course, more than three may be necessary to provide the guards with overlapping playtimes so they can RP together, doing that guard thing, and noble players frequently see the PC presence of their House as reflecting their power and try to hire as many people as they can.

Now let's look at the down-side OOCly of being a House guard. The biggest problem is finding something to do, particularly if the House nobles are too caught up in city politics to find work for a humble warrior type. Whereas the Byn has frequent expeditions on a range of mercenary jobs and an independent hunter can go where they like at any time, the Houses' excursions tend to be rare and very much at the mercy of the players of House nobles. While guards will often hear of the scandals and the politics between Houses, they tend to remain uninvolved unless called on to provide muscle for an assassination attempt. If the other guards are few or inactive, they end up solo RPing through their IC schedule, which tends to be quite as tightly packed as any Bynner's.

Not being exempt from the crim-flag under any circumstances, they have no real authority to make up for their more sedate position - if a group of elves gather to shout insults at their Lord or Lady they have little recourse but to call the militia because otherwise, if they step in, the crim-code will affect them adversely. In many cases they seem to exist to do nothing but protect their noble from harm - something that the NPC guards given to each noble can do more ably.

So, what solutions can be offered? The first and most obvious would seem to be that as a noble, unless you can provide guards with a steady and interesting diet of RP, there is no call to hire them. It's all very well to say "Oh, they can make their own RP" - but they are under a number of tight restrictions by default including not leaving the city, training at set times with a scant couple of game hours of break, and all that with far fewer PCs to RP with or fun breaks than they could get in the Byn. If you hire them it is your responsibility either to ensure they have tasks they can get their teeth into or that some PC guard is given authority to override the rules with his or her subordinates and find things for them to do. One of the best moves that could be made, in my opinion, would be for the irritating IC schedules to be scrapped for any group which does not have a heavy PC presence, particularly Noble Houses with few guards. Discipline is all very well, but the OOC issue of playability has to be factored in there somewhere too.

On a codewise basis, the crim-code needs some serious attention paid to it. Apart from protecting their nobles in times of need, which is something an NPC can do quite as well, the main function of a House guard is to visit pain upon those who his or her Lord or Lady wishes to have such pain. Without having some indicator of social class in the crim-code, it's impossible to distinguish whether the victim is some no-good half-breed or elf whose beating at the hands of House guards would interest the militia not one whit or the acknowledged bastard son of Lord Fancypants himself. So the crim-code arrests everyone who is non-militia alike instead, which makes a guard's task rather harder. This is a non-trivial coding task though, so I don't expect to see a fix for that any time soon.

Quirk

[spawnloser]

Okay...I know for fact that it is annoying to be on the noble end of this equation, being a player currently playing a character in one of the noble house clans.  Someone shows some promise, has good manners and isn't too dirty?  Hire them, because that is all that is needed of a guard...but no, they want to be an independant hunter.  Hell, I've seen people say they prefer to play them...and in nearly the same breath talk about how short-lived these characters can be.  Seriously, all of you, how long does the average independant hunter last in the wastes?  How many independant hunter characters do you need to go through before it finally dawns on you that you will have a longer-lived character by accepting a guard position?

Yeah, it can be boring, sparring...but bynners do that to.  Just about anyone in a clan that I have had interaction with that is not a tribal clan has sparring to do.  When not sparring, you often stand around watching the nobles do stuff that you can't hear (unless you're clever).  However, there are a few other things to bring up...the more PC guards in the noble house, the more people to RP with through the training and the more likely for there to be overlap.  Also, training, which they are usually required to do, does not have to be mindless sparring.  Be creative, people.  There are so many things that you could do to train besides combat skills...though, of course, training those combat skills is handy...and would make you more likely to be used as a guard rather than those NPCs.  If PC guards are about, nobles should make use of them instead of or in addition to the NPCs...and I have seen it done.

All in all, I personally am tired of everyone avoiding noble houses...I'm also tired of some nobles snatching up everyone with a pulse simply because they have nothing better to do than mud for 10+ hours a day, leaving others without such luxury to wallow in a clan with much fewer PCs...since anyone willing to be hired is hired by the person with no outside life and the rest are those aforementioned 'independant wannabies.'  I know my clan IMM has said, "Stop recruiting guards, we're full," before.  I think that is something that should be done in EVERY noble house to prevent overcrowding in one clan and barren wastes in another's barracks.

[Quirk]

Seriously, all of you, how long does the average independant hunter last in the wastes?  How many independant hunter characters do you need to go through before it finally dawns on you that you will have a longer-lived character by accepting a guard position?

I think many of us would prefer to have a fun character than a long-lived one. Noble House guards are not fun unless their superiors are actively giving them fun things to do. Moreover, quite a few people feel that what the world really needs is more commoners struggling to survive and keeping that gritty Armageddon feel, not pampered errand-runners for the nobility. So they make dirty commoners instead, deliberately unsuitable for House service. This should stop the recruiters yet does not.

Yeah, it can be boring, sparring...

The problem is just not that there are boring things to do but that there is usually a lack of interesting things to do and no real chance of peacefully leaving the House if the OOC boredom renders the character unplayable.

There are so many things that you could do to train besides combat skills...though, of course, training those combat skills is handy...and would make you more likely to be used as a guard rather than those NPCs.

That training can be had in many other more interesting places where the RP when not training is far more engaging. Why sign up for a Noble House? And where's the fascination in being an NPC replacement?

All in all, I personally am tired of everyone avoiding noble houses...

Personally, I'm tired of those few people who enjoy being a guard in a Noble House complaining that those who aren't should stop playing their fun and interesting commoner roles and come spar with them.

Quirk

[spawnloser]

Wow...that was biased, Quirk.

I'll address your points in the order they were made.

Stop relying on others to make your fun for you.  There is plenty of fun to be had doing any role.  You can play a House guard and still have plenty of fun.

Dirty is dirt...people can be washed up.

Boring = not intersting...I do not see your point.

Yes, there is a way to peacefully leave House employ.  Not a single noble house hires everyone for life from the very beginning.

As far as the training in more interesting places...I just said that.  Training doesn't have to be sparring.

As far as being an NPC replacement, that's what we all are.  PCs, NPCs and VNPCs are no more or less important than each other.  Think of the NPCs being a replacement for your unskilled ass.  Get some skills and you can do your damned job instead of the noble having to rely on someone else to do it for you.

Finally, as you failed to understand several points I was trying to make, I will attempt to be a bit clearer this time...being a guard in a noble house does not mean that you have to sit and spar all day and can be both fun and interesting, but you will need to make it that way.  Do not count on someone else to entertain you by giving you things to do all day long...find yourself things to do.

[Quirk]

Stop relying on others to make your fun for you.  There is plenty of fun to be had doing any role.  You can play a House guard and still have plenty of fun.

I addressed that in my first post, discussing the restrictions on a House guard and how they effect RP. Perhaps you might like to reread it. Yes, you can have fun as a House guard, but unless your superiors take a hand, it's usually in spite of being one instead of because of it.

Dirty is dirt...people can be washed up.

That's just wrong. That's not how a heavily class-based society works. You can take the 'Rinther out of the 'Rinth, but not the 'Rinth out of the 'Rinther. Or, indeed, the Bynner out of the Byn, but not the Byn out of the Bynner.

Yes, there is a way to peacefully leave House employ.  Not a single noble house hires everyone for life from the very beginning.

Not all, these days, but most still do.

As far as the training in more interesting places...I just said that.  Training doesn't have to be sparring.

Again, that relies on superiors being ready and willing to haul their platoon somewhere more interesting. The low-ranked guard does not have authority to do that on his or her own.

As far as being an NPC replacement, that's what we all are.  PCs, NPCs and VNPCs are no more or less important than each other.  Think of the NPCs being a replacement for your unskilled ass.  Get some skills and you can do your damned job instead of the noble having to rely on someone else to do it for you.

Cute, but not OOCly true. PCs are what make the game into what it is. How many of us would continue to play if no-one else ever logged on? How many NPC spies have you come across? How many NPC merchants have the nous to go out and get something you ordered that they didn't have in stock? NPCs are very limited. And standing idle by your Lord or Lady's shoulder to protect him or her, unable to open your mouth because it's socially incorrect to interrupt, is reducing a PC to a job an NPC could as easily do.

Finally, as you failed to understand several points I was trying to make, I will attempt to be a bit clearer this time...being a guard in a noble house does not mean that you have to sit and spar all day and can be both fun and interesting, but you will need to make it that way.  Do not count on someone else to entertain you by giving you things to do all day long...find yourself things to do.

The way things stand in most Noble Houses, you're ICly restricted by your House schedule. There is no major advantage to being a guard you've described here, you're merely arguing that you can still have fun despite the restrictions. My argument is that you can have more fun without the restrictions. I have yet to see you address this.

Quirk

[spawnloser]

I addressed that in my first post, discussing the restrictions on a House guard and how they effect RP. Perhaps you might like to reread it. Yes, you can have fun as a House guard, but unless your superiors take a hand, it's usually in spite of being one instead of because of it.

No.  This I wholeheartedly disagree with, and you are missing something that could be very fun, if only you would put forth your own effort and be creative and clever about it.

That's just wrong. That's not how a heavily class-based society works. You can take the 'Rinther out of the 'Rinth, but not the 'Rinth out of the 'Rinther. Or, indeed, the Bynner out of the Byn, but not the Byn out of the Bynner.

There's a difference between a 'Rinther and a dirty commoner.

Not all, these days, but most still do.

No.  None of them do from the start.  They all have a 'trial period' of some sort.

Again, that relies on superiors being ready and willing to haul their platoon somewhere more interesting. The low-ranked guard does not have authority to do that on his or her own.

Talk to a superior beforehand.  "Hey, I suck at riding and we're supposed to go out hunting...when noone else is availble for me to spar with, would it be alright if I practiced getting the hang of telling my kank what to do?"  Like I said, be creative.  Don't count on anyone else for your fun.  Make it yourself.

Cute, but not OOCly true. PCs are what make the game into what it is. How many of us would continue to play if no-one else ever logged on? How many NPC spies have you come across? How many NPC merchants have the nous to go out and get something you ordered that they didn't have in stock? NPCs are very limited. And standing idle by your Lord or Lady's shoulder to protect him or her, unable to open your mouth because it's socially incorrect to interrupt, is reducing a PC to a job an NPC could as easily do.

You are missing something, again, the part of the quote of mine that you cut out.  No PC is more important than an NPC, just because they are a PC.  In fact, there are NPCs out there more important than ANY PC in the game.  PCs help shape the world, but they do NOT make it.  Also, to address this whole, "I don't want to do something an NPC could," mentality you seem to have, standing around is also a perceived thing...you can be using the Way (even with your noble charge, giving advice and asking things, being an interactive guard instead of a nearly inanimate one), listen, think...as I've said before and will say again, Quirk, be creative and clever...stop relying on others to hand-feed you your fun.

The way things stand in most Noble Houses, you're ICly restricted by your House schedule. There is no major advantage to being a guard you've described here, you're merely arguing that you can still have fun despite the restrictions. My argument is that you can have more fun without the restrictions. I have yet to see you address this.

You can have more fun without any and all restrictions...like staying in character, but are you going to advocate that as well?  All roles come with restrictions....live with it and have fun with them is what I'm saying.  I'm not saying that you should have fun in spite of them.

[Quirk]

I addressed that in my first post, discussing the restrictions on a House guard and how they effect RP. Perhaps you might like to reread it. Yes, you can have fun as a House guard, but unless your superiors take a hand, it's usually in spite of being one instead of because of it.

No.  This I wholeheartedly disagree with, and you are missing something that could be very fun, if only you would put forth your own effort and be creative and clever about it.

I am clever, and I am creative. My characters frequently set plots in motion that end up embroiling large numbers of other people. I do not have the same scope to do this within a House barracks. There are more restrictions on House guards - can you dispute this?

There's a difference between a 'Rinther and a dirty commoner.

From a noble's point of view there isn't. A 'Rinther is just a dirty commoner from a slightly worse neighbourhood. They're both lower-class. Guards are middle-class. People do not cross class boundaries just like that, not unless there is an exceptional reason for them to do so.

No.  None of them do from the start.  They all have a 'trial period' of some sort.

Uh, that still fails to address the longterm OOC boredom issue I was talking about, when it ceases to be fun.

Talk to a superior beforehand.  "Hey, I suck at riding and we're supposed to go out hunting...when noone else is availble for me to spar with, would it be alright if I practiced getting the hang of telling my kank what to do?"  Like I said, be creative.  Don't count on anyone else for your fun.  Make it yourself.

I'm sorry, but I find spamming ride infinitely less fun than engaging in shady dealings or subtle politics or cutting business deals or even, come to that, having to hunt just to stay alive. But hey, if learning to ride works for you, I'm glad to hear it.

You are missing something, again, the part of the quote of mine that you cut out.  No PC is more important than an NPC, just because they are a PC.  In fact, there are NPCs out there more important than ANY PC in the game.  PCs help shape the world, but they do NOT make it.  

And you missed my very first sentence. Here it is again:

Cute, but not OOCly true.

Without PCs to RP with, Armageddon would be a dull place. There would be no game worth playing. It is the PCs who make the world worth staying in. If all the PCs stood in the bazaar all day long with a basket full of wares and acted like NPCs, the game would be equally worthless. I think from this we can deduce that PC input into the RP experience is vital.

Also, to address this whole, "I don't want to do something an NPC could," mentality you seem to have, standing around is also a perceived thing...you can be using the Way (even with your noble charge, giving advice and asking things, being an interactive guard instead of a nearly inanimate one), listen, think...as I've said before and will say again, Quirk, be creative and clever...stop relying on others to hand-feed you your fun.

Oh wait, using the Way? That certainly makes up for not being able to steal off into a corner and actually RP face to face with another PC. But... your noble has no need for your advice ICly, unless you're a very important guard or they're bending the IC guidelines to make your play experience more enjoyable (see an earlier point I've repeated several times now). Well, you can always way someone else instead of going over and RPing with them. That beats playing a character where you didn't have to stand round waying people.

And I didn't even touch on the difficulty of using the Way standing until you're really quite skilled at it. I thought that was generous of me.

You can have more fun without any and all restrictions...like staying in character, but are you going to advocate that as well?  All roles come with restrictions....live with it and have fun with them is what I'm saying.  I'm not saying that you should have fun in spite of them.

I personally would not have more fun without staying in character. Nor, I suspect, would most people who RP with me. I will happily accept any restrictions that enhance the roleplay experience for everyone. To my mind, the Byn schedule usually does that, as there are normally sufficient Bynners to ensure that it can be kept to without long periods of solo RP. In most Houses there are not enough guards to make such a schedule worthwhile. Moreover, the lack of breaks in routine and the decorum expected of a House guard add up to restrictions that in the hands of superiors unwilling to cater to their subordinate's needs for more interesting fare are every bit as damaging, in my view, as introducing coded penalties for not getting sleep in game would be.

Quirk

[spawnloser]

Well, I'm tired of this argument...I should have gone to be after getting home from work over an hour ago too, so I will just say the following.

You still don't get it.  There are restictions on anyone in a clan.  Live with it.  Guards are lower class; 'Rinthers are 'Rinthers.  I said be creative...you can do more than just "spamming ride" which is not very creative, if you ask me.  As far as missing that little sentence there, I did not.  And yes, it is OOCly true...maybe not to you, but to the game.  I never said that you can only interact with NPCs.  You can also always have something to do when playing a guard...which is not always the case when someone plays an indpendant hunter that makes more money than they should because the character is powerplayed.  So...who makes more sense?  Oh, and about the Way?  I don't care if it's hard.  Get better.  That's something else you can practice.  Now, also, from numbers of PCs in the Byn and PCs in some of the other clans I've been in, your entire arguement about schedules is irrelavant to me...I disregard it.  Oh, and if you don't like the superiors, go find other ones.  Personally, I hope you do try to get into the noble house that I play in currently so you can see what is being done there...but at the same time, I'm tired of you and your being argumentative and nitpicky...not to mention stubborn and unwilling to listen to another's point of view.

[X-D]

Quirk wrote:

Noble House guards are not fun unless their superiors are actively giving them fun things to do.

Heh.

I once had a quite long lived Dwarf in Tor, In the first IC year of his being hired, the rest of the guards managed to die.

Noble presence, close to 0, imm presence 0 for his first 10 ic years at least.

Still one of the most fun chars I've played. Recruited, rebuilt the guard, and paid people from his own pocket, which was interesting since he was only paid 2x in that first 10 years. Only bit of help was the senior aide of the house at the time.

Later I played a char in a newly opened house with a very active and helpful Imm, with a very dynamic noble, this was also fun, but even then I did not just wait around for them to give me something to do.

As for house guard restrictions limiting what you can do, plotwise and such, Heh, I've ALWAYS been able to get more going from a house guard position, maybe different then what I can do as an indy, but many of the things you can't do indy.

To the statement of most houses not having enough pc's, Well, if the house you are in does not have enough pc's, -DO- something about that.
Even if your char cannot recruit directly, there is no reason why they can't feel people out and talk to them, maybe get them interested, then find your recruiter (noble or officer) If these people do not exist or are rarely on get ahold of your imm.  

Not like a noble or clan imm is going to complain about a char taking an active interest in improving the house/guard, plus, odds are your char will be pickier then the normal recruiter.

[My 2 sids]

I agree with people who say House PCs are over paid, they are.  It's an honor to work for a house and that alone should be a large driving force.  Not to bring up old debates but again, societies such as in game are –not- run by money.  The nobility and anyone they associate with, are better than others –because- they are associated with a house name.  Outside of maybe a few luxuries or drinks, workers of the nobility and other prestigious organizations don't need a lot of money!   If we have to make this about money then I offer the fact that food and water for a house with hundreds plus to feed and water and clothe and shelter... that's going to add up, even by noble standards, to be a LOT of sid.  Nobles can't afford a ton of sids in pay.

One other money issue I think can be addressed in this thread, independent PCs.  Independents aren't paid for virtual work, as clanned people are; and thus don't even have a chance to make near a livable profit.  Even though the docs state that people, such as merchants, are some of the wealthiest.  Instead of working on plot lines or interacting at taverns or what have you, independents must spend a great deal of their time role-playing them making money.  I think if independents could afford better equipment and afford to live longer, the game as a whole would benefit.  It would mean independent people would be able to last long enough and have time enough to give more to the game as a whole.  I'd even like to see one or two Imms or helpers who can help people who want to have independent characters.  

Being able to afford to go independent for a while would also help so that not everyone has this sudden need to rush out to find work in a house.  And be able to wait to see if the house is willing to accept them after a huge background and personality check.  Its hard to create a feeling of supperiority when clan members seem to beg people to be hired.

[X-D]

Um, What?

It's obscenly easy to make money as an independant.
I've had independant chars that were special ordering gear inside of 2 ic years and when they died (5-10 ic years later normaly) had bank accounts in exess of 30k.

Independents aren't paid for virtual work, as clanned people are; and thus don't even have a chance to make near a livable profit.  Even though the docs state that people, such as merchants, are some of the wealthiest.  Instead of working on plot lines or interacting at taverns or what have you, independents must spend a great deal of their time role-playing them making money.  I think if independents could afford better equipment and afford to live longer, the game as a whole would benefit.  It would mean independent people would be able to last long enough and have time enough to give more to the game as a whole.  I'd even like to see one or two Imms or helpers who can help people who want to have independent characters.  

Even as another class playing a merchant, you can amass huge amounts of wealth. Grow wealthy enough to piss off the merchant houses, have people KNOW you are rich and try and sell you all kinds of weird shit you might not see. Give outraeous bribes and bounties. (my favorite, outrageous bounties). Managing your subordinates without a coded clan can be interesting and challenging. An independant trying to make the big time has to run the gauntlet of conflict and politics. That's only if you want to be big. If you want to just stay small, its ridiculously easy to be wealthy enough. Oh and trying to build a reputation as someone who can deliver.  Lots of Rp opportunity for independants.

[grog]

It seems to me that there are a lot of people who think that both those working for houses and those working for themselves get too much money.  I've got an easy answer to that, they should drop all that extra money into the bottomless bag o' oblivion, ignore the elf holding the bag, he is just a NPC.

[A noble]

The simple fact is, I need PCs.  I will always prefer to accomplish things by using PCs, rather than standing around emoting for some vNPCs and NPCs and then sending off a log.  I can't advance plots without PCs.

I don't hire every Tom, Dick, and Harry.  Even if I did, for every ten PCs I hire, four of them will disappear, three of them will die, and two will wash out of training.  That's just within the first game-year of hiring them.  The remaining hire is going to get tired of sparring after that first year and want to go on missions, nevermind the fact that he doesn't have the skills to survive one.  The end result is that I'm almost always hiring, and usually still suffering attrition in my numbers.  I'm personally very picky with who I hire, but not on the basis of how dirty or ill-mannered someone is.  If your first year of training doesn't whip you into shape, then I consider how dirty or ill-mannered you are.

As for giving the employees something to do, it's not all about the RPTs.  Those are nice, but there are other things as well.  I can think of some recent instances though where I gave the Guard something to do, and absolutely nothing came of it, so the door swings both ways.  I can't get people involved in things if they won't get involved.

It's frustrating to read posts like Quirk's, but this isn't about him in particular.  I'm sure there are other players who feel much the same as he does.  My frustration stems not from the specific content of his posts either, but the way it's applied.  It's not, "I had a couple (or several) experiences like this."  It's, "All experiences are like this."  It's an insult to efforts that don't match up with a blanket statement like that.  It also makes it that much harder to change things for the better, because there are going to be good players out there who are going to either assume that their bad, boring experience in a noble house is all that there is, or who won't try because it's being broadcast that bad, boring experiences are all that there is.

[Angela Christine]

I agree with most of what Quirk said.  

I too would rather have a fun character than a long-lived one, if I had to choose just one or the other.  Who wouldn't?  Why would you want to be bored for a looong time?  You don't need a game to do that, you can do it in real life.    In the past I've had characters that I've painted into corners so restrictive that I was OOCly praying for death.  It isn't necessarily the role, but how I was playing the role.  I once had a personal aide to a noble who was very tied up in her noble, and no other strong relationships, only cautious aquaintences.  So when the noble was killed and she was made a junior aide to the House, she was adrift and I was adrift with her.  Once she knew the killer had been caught and put to death she had no goals in life.  I can't blame the other players in the clan, the clan imm, or people outside the clan, because they were all great about dealing with her.  It was just the story I wove about her left us with no where to go when her driving obsession was abruptly removed.  The role became intollerably dull to me, to the point where it became an effort to log in at all.

I don't know exactly why I find it more ammusing to ride alone from 'Nak to Luirs' Outpost, stopping along the way to gather plants or forage for materials, with the occasional wild ride to escape the clutches of gith or beasties, than to sit alone in a clan compound with a city-restricted character.  I'm solo-playing either way, and while in the city you have a better chance of running into other PCs and having some fun interaction.  Nevertheless I would rather be riding around doing nothing than sitting around doing nothing.  It's a puzzler.  I guess I just have to accept that some people, like me, do enjoy it more.  

It is good that Armageddon allows a variety of roles.  I accept that independant hunters, merchents and scavengers contribute less per capita to the plot arch than clanned characters do.  But they do contribute.  It would not be helpful if those roles were not available or were restricted somehow so that only a reasonable portion of playerbase could be playing independants at one time.  Would it force more people to play clannies?  Maybe a few, more likely the players that prefer independants would go play somewhere else.  There is no reason to look down on people who like playing independants, because independants do contribute, even if they die more often.  Independants find cool places, tell someone important, which can lead to a clan RPT where the important people go to investigate.  Independants bring in exotic and mundane materials that the clanned sometimes can't go get for themselves, like herbs and branches.  Brewing up potions or making arrows with those materials gives the clanned something to do during the quiet times.


I can think of a couple things that could improve the situation:

1)  Opportunities for "associate" members.  Many clans already do this to some extent.  They aren't members of the clan and they don't get access to the barracks, but the do jobs for the clan as the opportunity arises.  Associates don't have to be good enough to wear the livery, so even elves and 'rinthers can be hired for this kind of work.  Sometimes an associate will join the clan after a while, because they know ICly and OOCly that they have a good group to play with.  Usually they don't have to go through the annoying recruit phase, because they have already proven themselves and shown that they aren't going to do something stupid and themselves killed next week.

Merchant clans are often willing to buy materials directly from independant suppliers.  It is a bit of a pain for an independant to wait around for someone to show up and collect the goods, but it's worth it for the chance to build up those relationships, and if no one shows up they still have the option to sell the stuff to NPC shops.  Occasionally I'll hear of a Noble house that wants to buy jasper, alabaster, thornwood, jakhal hides, live gwoshis or baby erdlu.  And nothing else.  This is cool, it gives independants something to shoot for, and gets them involved with clans without being chained to them.

Other associates can simply keep their eyes and ears open, and report back any interesting tidbits they pick up, getting a small payoff each time.  

Still others, usually ones who have proven their reliability over time, will be invited along on missions outside the city, filling out the party.  If you only have 3 PC guards/hunters in your clan, then you are limited to where it is "safe" and reasonable to go.  But if you hire on some mercinaries for the job you have more options.  They Byn is great for this, but sometimes you don't want a random group of mercenaries, you want particular trustworthy individuals.

2) Make the schedual optional, and make sure everyone knows it is optional, make the schedual something you do when there is nothing else to do.  My impression is that the scheduals are there for OOC reasons to prevent people from sparring too much, not to make sure they spar enough.  The schedual makes sure you don't over-do coded activities to an unrealistic extent, and that's a good thing.  But a schedual that tells you have to spar or log out, especially when there is no one to spar with and you don't want to solo-spar, doesn't help.  Telling you that you are supposed to be attending a lesson in ettiquette, desert survival or equipment maintenance when there is no PC available to teach the lesson just makes the schedual look stupid.  Do not eliminate the scheduals, you still don't want people sparring all day every day, or whatever awful things they would do left to their own devices.  In addition to the schedual create a list of things that are acceptable options to the schedual (though you would still have to do what your superiors say, so if a PC superior is logged on they can run the schedual, or some other activity).  

Potential activities:

a) Practice riding inside the city.

b) Go shopping.  Now that many shops are closed at night when clanned PCs have free time it is hard to get your personal shopping done.

c) Walk around.  Not quite a formal patrol, but walk around the compound, the marketplace, or the city as a whole.  Get a feeling for what is going on, take the pulse of the city.  You just might see something worth reporting.

d) Socialize/networking.  Go sit in a tavern and talk to people.  Shoot the shit.  While you are doing this you might encounter potential new recruits, potential customers, people who are looking for someone in your clan or want to leave a message for them, potential competators, etc.  While sitting around you gather information, and information is power.

e) Go hunting or gathering.  Make a rule that you have to have X number of people, and that you can only go to certain areas or a certain distance from the city, to make it safer, but let them go out without needing permission from some Noble or Agent that may not always be around to give permission.  That way they are still logged in, and if the clan needs them for something specific they can be recalled via the Way.  Most clans can use more meat and materials, ICly, even if they have one of those magical cooks that produce unlimitted amounts of food from nothing.  

f) Craft junk, even if you weren't hired as a crafter.  If you use clan owned materials, then the result belongs to the house so you can't go sell it.  It gives people something to do, some people hate crafting, but if they like it why not let them do it?

I'm sure people could think of other things that would make being clanned more enjoyable for people who don't like being chained to an ironclad schedual.  What sort of activities are appropriate will depend on the clan, but I'm sure there are some things each clan could think of.


Angela Christine

[JollyGreenGiant]

Optional schedules would be a bad idea, I think.  Let's face it, if it's already hard to find a sparring partner when you're supposed to be somewhere at a designated time, how is making that time slot option going to improve matters?  I'd rather show up at practice time and solo-rp in the hopes that halfway through, someone else will in fact log on.  If I just wandered off, then if someone else does log on, they're just going to wander off too.

Some of AC's suggestions for activities were great though.  One thing I've always thought I should see more of is gambling.  I mean, you're a commoner with a steady income, food, and shelter, and you're bored... that sounds like a gambling addiction just waiting to happen, to me.

[Quirk]

It's frustrating to read posts like Quirk's, but this isn't about him in particular.  I'm sure there are other players who feel much the same as he does.  My frustration stems not from the specific content of his posts either, but the way it's applied.  It's not, "I had a couple (or several) experiences like this."  It's, "All experiences are like this."

Hey, be fair. I tried to make it clear that a good superior will provide for their subordinates RP-wise and that the problems I mentioned were not necessarily an issue in that case. My little rants were not directed at those nobles who're doing their level best to keep RP in a Noble House fun for all concerned, nor those officers in said Houses who're doing the same. My chief point was that given the strict IC schedules of most Houses, superiors who're unwilling to take on the responsibility of providing RP for those under them are a Bad Thing and stop many people wanting to play in Noble Houses. This desire to avoid the Houses leads to a good number of the best players making characters of a social class unsuitable for recruitment, and their opinion of the Houses is usually further soured by the recruiters' dogged determination to ignore social boundaries.

As far as JollyGreenGiant's comment on sparring goes - if your schedule lets you get your RP elsewhere, who cares if you have a sparring partner? You're still enjoying your RP and contributing to the world, hopefully. Anyway, if someone logs on, they can way you.

Quirk

[spawnloser]

I've been trying to tell everyone...be creative.  I have already advocated something similar to the 'optional schedule' thing, but in a structured way.

Still, Quirk, though, you seem to still miss the point that superiors should not have to provide you with RP.  They are not here to amuse you.  They are here to be amused just like you are.  Make your own damned fun.

[Quirk]

Still, Quirk, though, you seem to still miss the point that superiors should not have to provide you with RP.  They are not here to amuse you.  They are here to be amused just like you are.  Make your own damned fun.

Still, spawnloser, you seem to miss the point that given the default restrictions on Noble House guards, there's more of that damned fun to be made elsewhere unless the superiors redress the balance.

Quirk

[spawnloser]

Still, spawnloser, you seem to miss the point that given the default restrictions on Noble House guards, there's more of that damned fun to be made elsewhere unless the superiors redress the balance.

Okay...Why is it someone else's job to make changes that you see as a problem?  Just fucking do something about it.  It has been (/is being) done in the noble house I'm involved in.  If you want anyone to change, change them...don't rely on them to change themselves just because you bitched.

[Quirk]

Still, spawnloser, you seem to miss the point that given the default restrictions on Noble House guards, there's more of that damned fun to be made elsewhere unless the superiors redress the balance.

Okay...Why is it someone else's job to make changes that you see as a problem?  Just fucking do something about it.  It has been (/is being) done in the noble house I'm involved in.  If you want anyone to change, change them...don't rely on them to change themselves just because you bitched.

If I'm playing a noble, I try to make the life of those beneath me as interesting as I can or ensure someone capable has power to make their life interesting.

If I'm not playing a noble, why should I join some Noble House with the aim of revolutionising it? I'm happy enough to play outside it, though I wish those who belong to it would be more realistic in their recruiting attempts. I assume there are people who like playing Noble House guards or there would be no guards in game. I'm also happy enough to state the problems with being a Noble House guard as far as I'm concerned, and which I see as a general enough problem to deter others. I see most of those problems as rather less than relevant if the superiors in the House care enough to make an attempt to minimise them. If someone is doing something about it in the House you're currently dealing with, the criticisms I made probably don't apply to that House. However, as I was fairly careful throughout to mention that superiors could make a significant difference, I don't see that that renders any of my arguments invalid.

If you've never played in a Noble House where the noble doesn't care about the Guard side of matters and the superior officers never log in, I urge you to do so at once. You might discover that what I'm saying has rather more merit than you realised.

Quirk

[Marc]

Admittedly I scanned the last 3 pages of long winded posts so excuse any repetition to previous posters.

Armageddon's economy is broken.  Money is beyond easy so long as one doesn't mind repetition.  Money has next to no value once someone has even a years experience in the game.  Many times much less.

I've had a multiple of characters who could compile tens of thousands of sid in a RL month.  Sometimes in a RL week depending on how much I played and where.  

Abusive?  Maybe.

Rare or specific?  Not at all.

Without really brainstorming I can think of around 6 different avenues (4 crafting) that can net more money then you could possibly spend.  I know I listed at least 20 or so in an economic breakdown to the mud account.  If you're a character with a decent haggle it just compounds itself.

The only real limit to the money you can make is how much time you're willing to invest in doing unexciting and many times solo activities.

In conclussion, the in game economy needs a serious face lift, but that'll happen about the same time that the combat code gets re-hashed.

Viva la profits.  Viva la capitalism *gag*

[spawnloser]

Okay...I will definitely agree that the economy is cracked.  I played something approximate to an independant crafter.  By the time this character got going, I could bring in nearly 10k per RL week.  This character had saved up enough to buy a building composed of a 7 room living area and a 5 room shop area (which was supposed to be built but probably got stopped due to my characters death)...on top of that, was going to buy a two story, five room wagon...but was roughly two weeks short of having the cash, based off of average earnings.  Not to mention the outfit that would net a grand total of 35k all by itself.  You should NOT be able to be an independant character and have more money to throw around (especially with a character that lived only three months RL and only used a subguild crafting skill) than a noble has to play with, and yes, I know how much money a noble PC has access to.  Not to mention that noble houses should have the best compensation for their employees than any of the merchant houses, which in turn should have better compensation for those in their employ than any indpendant should be able to make in the same amount of time.  In my train of thought, I am including lodgings (which are free to anyone anyway, another issue I will be bringing up in another thread), food and water.

On to the original argument...I am playing someone in a leadership position in the noble house clan that I play in, and I DO try to provide things for my subordinates to do, however, to paraphrase something said by ashyom in another thread, I am not an activity and RP vending machine.  My character has goals and a personality that I am NOT going to stop on just to give you something special and fun to do.  I am going to play by the rules that both my superiors have set and the internal rules that I have set for how my character would act in certain situations.  Others in leadership positions in the House, as well as myself, have been in communication with our clan IMM to try to make things more workable for the players as well as the characters.  Granted, some things get wacky sometimes when people don't realize the repurcussions of some changes, small or large, but that makes it that much more interesting.  Personally, I would hope that anyone in a leadership position in a clan would do everything they can both OOC and IC to make the clan better for those under them...in fact, I think that should be a requirement of anyone being in a leadership position.  If you can't make that kind of commitment, turn down a leadership role if offered.  That goes for every clan...noble or not.

[Quirk]

You should NOT be able to be an independant character and have more money to throw around (especially with a character that lived only three months RL and only used a subguild crafting skill) than a noble has to play with, and yes, I know how much money a noble PC has access to.

Sadly, it's hard to find a system that will allow players who wish to spend most of their time in interaction with others rather than crafting to be viable as an independent artisan without being vulnerable to those who are willing to powergame their crafting skills for vast quantities of sid. (I'm not suggesting, by the by, that you were powergaming; I have no wish to start a second huge argument). To a large extent the system as it is now relies on the players being willing to regulate themselves and accept that just because they can craft up a couple of dozen items and sell them for a few hundred sid each, it doesn't mean that they should do so or that it is realistic for them to do so. Obviously some players will abuse this more than others, but I think that's one of those things you have to accept and move on, much like accepting that there will be players who log on only to spar.

The thorny issue is that there should be a huge number of independents surviving happily off their work who are poorer than those working for the big Merchant Houses. There should be a small number of very able independents who those Houses are keeping a cautious eye on lest they expand. This happens to a certain extent in game, but the divide is drawn along player boundaries rather than character ones. Some players know the tricks to running a successful independent crafter, probably most do not. I heard a player claim that the cost of food and water made an independent unviable, and he was not by any means a new player. A lot of those players who have trouble keeping independents alive end up working for the Merchant Houses. The prosperous few usually find themselves more ambitious goals, such as expanding their business, perhaps buying a shop, and end up competing with the big Houses. I generally tend to view this as a good thing, because it leads to interesting conflict RP all round.

Incidentally, I've never come across an independent who was making any sum as ridiculous as 10K in an RL week every week until you mentioned yours. I'd hesitantly suggest that perhaps your character was the exception among independents rather than the rule.

Quirk

[spawnloser]

Personally, at the time and still yet, I was convinced that my character, in an in game month should easily (considering that a month is couple hundred days long) be able to craft up fifty items.  Considering that selling these fifty items is what I'm talking about that made my characters money...it was ridiculous.  Personally, I think WAY too much money is floating around the game.  Also, I think that some things cost too much...both for the selling and the buying.  Let's say you start with 900 'sid.  That should buy you a full outfit of clothing...normal clothing.  But, in honesty, it buys you crappy clothing if you want a complete outfit.  On the other hand, some things cost just the right amount...like a lot of foods.  Personally, I would like to see people start getting only half as much 'sid at character creation and a bunch of items' costs reevaluated.

[X-D]

10k a week for an indy is easy, I've actually had to work harder a being poor with some chars then becoming rich. Not that I minded, simply develope a spice habit, and be an archer that never goes to recover his arrows, that will put ya in the poorhouse quick.

[Quirk]

Personally, at the time and still yet, I was convinced that my character, in an in game month should easily (considering that a month is couple hundred days long) be able to craft up fifty items.  Considering that selling these fifty items is what I'm talking about that made my characters money...it was ridiculous.

The question is not so much whether it makes sense to be able to make that many items (although, when you take into account your character's "virtual" crafting, it becomes obvious that the prices are adjusted to fit a vastly lower level of actual crafting than would be theoretically ICly possible in the week) but whether there is sufficient demand out there for you to be able to sell them. Code-wise there may be, but unless all your items are being sold to PCs, you have to think good and hard whether the VNPCs are going to buy them in large numbers. For arrows or cheap stone daggers, it's likely there are plenty of people in the VNPC population ready to snap them up; for fancy jewellery, engraved daggers, silk clothing, etc, the demand is far more limited. Obviously there are enough VNPCs out there with the money to buy these things, but there are a vast number of other suppliers out there as well, particularly the large Merchant Houses.

Quirk

[Krath]

Yes there are enough to buy the items he makes Quirk, That AND more. When the mud shuts down, people buy up items, When the mud goes down on saturday, people are buying items. I do not see how there is a question about it at all.

[Quirk]

Yes there are enough to buy the items he makes Quirk, That AND more. When the mud shuts down, people buy up items, When the mud goes down on saturday, people are buying items. I do not see how there is a question about it at all.

Codewise, the shop's stock clears and there's space for more items.

Game-world-wise, there is no infinite procession of rich nobles striding past and buying up diamond necklaces five at a time. The PCs certainly don't, and the VNPCs are mostly pretty poor.

If you're selling expensive items to the shops, you should bear in mind that there are a limited number of customers who can afford such items in the game world.

Quirk

[Krath]

Game-world-wise, there is no infinite procession of rich nobles striding past and buying up diamond necklaces five at a time. The PCs certainly don't, and the VNPCs are mostly pretty poor.
.

Why not? The rich do it in real life, why not on Zalanthas? When you have money you spend it, and not necessarily on smart things. How many rich people, Rich meaning millionaires, in real life do you see with 11 $100,000 cars just because than can? Or millions of dollars in jewlery? about 85%. On top of that, if you want to say, Well, yes they would, but they are not the same item, fine. As mentioned in another thread, Just because you can craft and item and it's sdesc and mdesc is the same, does not necessarily mean the item is exactly the same.  Why is it not smart to assume the rich do not buy 5 necklaces at a time when it happens in real life?

[Quirk]

Why not? The rich do it in real life, why not on Zalanthas? When you have money you spend it, and not necessarily on smart things. How many rich people, Rich meaning millionaires, in real life do you see with 11 $100,000 cars just because than can? Or millions of dollars in jewlery? about 85%. On top of that, if you want to say, Well, yes they would, but they are not the same item, fine. As mentioned in another thread, Just because you can craft and item and it's sdesc and mdesc is the same, does not necessarily mean the item is exactly the same.  Why is it not smart to assume the rich do not buy 5 necklaces at a time when it happens in real life?

Supply and demand, Krath, supply and demand. You're forgetting that those people with all the $100,000 cars are firstly in a vanishingly small minority and secondly aren't buying a new car every week. While there will be a very few people who could afford to do so, you're competing with a vast number of other crafters to sell your wares. There's a relatively high proportion of the game-world nobility in game compared to the crafters. If you're going to try selling your uber-expensive items each week, why not seek a PC noble out and get them to buy it?

Quirk

[spawnloser]

Actually, my character was crafting normal run of the mill stuff...stuff that any commoner WOULD buy.  The expensive stuff I only made a few of.

[crymerci]

Ok, spawnloser, at the risk of stirring you up, I have to say that I know who your character was, and I always thought you crafted too much.  You appeared to have macros to take out your equipment, start the craft, a few emotes I saw repeated with little variation, and then repetition after repetition.  Maybe I was just unlucky in that that's almost all I ever saw your character do.

I rarely, if ever, saw you attempt to sell these items to PC's.  My character at the time knew your character, and would probably have bought some.  She could have bought them from Kadius (since they flooded the market there), but she could have got them for cheaper from you, and you could have made even more money, if you'd ever put forth the least effort in that direction.

Maybe fifty items a month is reasonable; I wouldn't disagree.  But some of them have to be made virtually, sold virtually, to pay for the food and water you consume virtually.  So I have to ask: why did you need that much money?  Did it seem realistic to make that much money in that short a time, regardless of the number of items you made?  I'll repeat what I said to the original poster: just because you can, does that mean you should?

I don't know, I've never been in that position.  Despite not being an idiot and having played for well over a year now, I don't know how to make thousands upon thousands of 'sid as an independent.  I even played the same subclass you did, spawnloser, and with someone providing me with an unlimited supply of materials I never crafted as much as you did.  Every independent I've ever made has had to scrape along, barely making ends meet and in some cases starving.  I think that's realistic, so the system must not be broken.  But if other people can make 10k a week being independent, I guess it's not.

I'm not trying to say that you're a twink or a powergamer.  I thought so at the time, but your explanation makes sense to me.  Fifty garments an IC month really isn't that much.  Sure, that's reasonable.  But I don't think it's reasonable for your character to have been able to buy a house, a shop, AND a wagon, based upon the work of 3 RL months.

The thing is, if you make it more difficult for you to make that much money, someone like me, who obviously just doesn't "get" how to make that kind of 'sid, won't be able to survive as an independent at all.  Maybe that's a good thing; there'd be fewer independents.  But I couldn't ever be an independent.  I guess that's what I don't like about it.

[Angela Christine]

I don't think it is a huge problem.   And when it is a problem it tends to correct itself.

Yes, if you poke around you can find ways to get fabulously wealthy faster than most people, PC, NPC or VNPC alike.  You might know where to find a certain herb or other trinkit that sells for hundreds.  You might find a crafting combo that is a money making machine.  You discover a cave full of good rocks, that yeilds a gemstone 1/10th of the time.  You might discover that you can buy a wooden shield in Tuluk and sell it for twice as much in Allanak.  Whatever, you know the tricks of the trade, like any good Ferengi-wannabe would.

Why isn't it a problem?  Because most of the time the problem corrects itself.  The person gets ambushed on the North road, ending their shield import buisness.  Or they get poisoned collecting the herb.  Or they get eaten by scrabs on the way to the rocky cave.  Many of the paths to fast-money are paved with man eating stones -- much like in real life.  You can only be lucky for so long.

Some crafts are unlikely to lead to an early death, yet still rake in the cash, and some people are able to make money in more dangerous activities without dieing the first week.  These take care of themselves too.  Sooner or later it becomes dull, the player gets bored, and moves on to something else.  Eventually you have the cool outfit you wanted, the home you wanted, the wagon you wanted, the mul love slave you wanted, or whatever financial goals your character had, plus a comfortable amount of money in the bank.  At that point, there isn't much incentive to keep doing the dangerous or boring thing.  Mostly the Basketweavers of Doom settle down after a while and spend more of their time on social roleplay.

It isn't totally inconcievable that an entrepenure will work more hours and produce more product than an employee that gets paid by the month rather than by the piece.  That happens in real life all the time.  Unless the boss is a hard taskmaster that keeps the employee's nose to the grindstone the employees tend to slack off a bit, and PCs are usually not hard taskmasters because if you are mean to your PC employees they will quit and go work for House Cushyjobs.  The entrepenure lives off whatever he makes, so he has a strong incentive to work all he can.  He has nothing to fall back on should he become sick, injured, or elderly and unable to work, so it makes sense he'd put money in the bank as insurance against future misfortunes (sure, that doesn't happen much to PCs, but ICly it is a worry).

You also have to take into account hours spent logged in.  Someone logged in 24 hours a week will make more money than someone logged in 10 hours a week.  ICly a month has gone by for both of them, but they won't be in the same position.

Like others have said, money isn't the sole component of being a rich upper-class type person.  30K in the bank is worthless unless you know what to do with it.


AC

[flurry]

Yeah..I definitely don't want to pile on spawnloser, but I would say to anyone, if you're actually making 10k/week with an independent crafter, you really should consider showing some restraint in how much you are actually crafting.    Crymerci is exactly right about virtual crafting...and think whatever you're crafting, you're going to virtually craft at least three times that probably.

...


One related concern I've had about crafters in the past was about crafters who aren't independent, who still are cranking out tons of items, but still selling them for their own profit.   That, IMHO, is ridiculous.   Especially if you're selling them to the shops owned by the House that's already paying your salary.  I remember that coming up before, I don't remember with whom, and I probably have some of the details a bit wrong (so if anyone thinks I'm talking about them, don't).    

....

But the bottom line in both cases I think, is that crafters have to show a little retraint.  If you're becoming filthy rich, maybe tone it down on the actual crafted items a bit, unless your PC has some special reason they are so exceptional that they should becoming filthy rich that way.

[Marc]

To jump to spawnlosers defense, 10k a RL week (going on the assumption that you log 2-3 hours a day in that week) is not so ludicrous.  It is also possible without crafting, and in some cases, without traveling.

All it is is boring.

Very very boring.

Take a few hours out of your money machine to RP and you lose a few K.  No biggy.  Take a few more out to try and experiment with crafts or new selling avenues and you lose a couple more grand.  No biggy.

The problem becomes more apparent when that time spent starts to bear fruit and suddenly you're making MORE obsidian because you've find new selling 'tricks' or have mastered a (new?) craft.

Class: Merchant

Subclass: crafter of some sort

Account balance: Infinite and imho w/o twinking.

Economy is a bit broke :-)  Thankfully the seams are not that noticable to the casual observer.

(That said, I've seen PLENTY of independant crafters spam craft with pre-packaged emotes.  I know the pain of trying to come up with a new way to describe twisting that feather or sanding that izdari piece, but at least blend the word order up a bit.  Don't make the mistake of including emotes in with a craft macro and try to steer clear of macro's in general.)

[spawnloser]

A little bit, in my defense, with that crafter of mine people saw me craft as much as I did because I did it in public...to advertise.  Even then, when trying to sell items to a PC, most of them didn't want it...because they could get something cheaper from the shops.  Not the item I was selling, which I always sold for less than I could get from the shops when selling to characters, and most people still wouldn't buy from me.  After a while with that character, I did settle down in my crafting, as AC said...and only made about 10-15 items a RL week, but by then the character was good enough that 15 items would net a profit of roughly 750% of the material costs...that's profit, not gross income.  Seriously, 5 hours of crafting RL over the course of a week, eventually netted a ridiculous amount of cash.  I still say that materials that should be bought should cost less and someone making items with those materials should get less money from it for those items.  At the time, I was playing roughly 8 hours a day every day except saturday...so crafting an average of 3 items a RL day (one every 3 RL hours) would make me far more money than the average noble's stipend by at least 5 times.  That isn't just a bit broke...that's downright whack...and not the wiggedy kind.

Also a bit in my defense...with that character, I had every tool that I would use in one container, so it was a 'get all' situation for that...and materials in the other.  I know a little bit about the craft in RL but not a whole lot, so I had to go with what I did know...and what the success message gave me as well as what the finished item looked like.  I wish I knew more, and any site I found couldn't give me any really useful information (as I didn't know what to do with the information available)...I wished that I had better RL experience with the craft, but it's a bit late now.

[X-D]

Hhhmm, boring?
Repitition.

Need not be, taking the RL week, make your daily play 4-5 hours, go about normal activities, hunting, patrols, socializing, mudsex, crafting, foraging, finding buyers, also, finding sellers.

All the things that make a char fun to play, and -still- make 10k no problem.

Though, I do have to say, the fastest way to get rich with a crafter -is- to buy and sell to pc's.