How rich is rich

[Quirk]

Still, spawnloser, you seem to miss the point that given the default restrictions on Noble House guards, there's more of that damned fun to be made elsewhere unless the superiors redress the balance.

Okay...Why is it someone else's job to make changes that you see as a problem?  Just fucking do something about it.  It has been (/is being) done in the noble house I'm involved in.  If you want anyone to change, change them...don't rely on them to change themselves just because you bitched.

If I'm playing a noble, I try to make the life of those beneath me as interesting as I can or ensure someone capable has power to make their life interesting.

If I'm not playing a noble, why should I join some Noble House with the aim of revolutionising it? I'm happy enough to play outside it, though I wish those who belong to it would be more realistic in their recruiting attempts. I assume there are people who like playing Noble House guards or there would be no guards in game. I'm also happy enough to state the problems with being a Noble House guard as far as I'm concerned, and which I see as a general enough problem to deter others. I see most of those problems as rather less than relevant if the superiors in the House care enough to make an attempt to minimise them. If someone is doing something about it in the House you're currently dealing with, the criticisms I made probably don't apply to that House. However, as I was fairly careful throughout to mention that superiors could make a significant difference, I don't see that that renders any of my arguments invalid.

If you've never played in a Noble House where the noble doesn't care about the Guard side of matters and the superior officers never log in, I urge you to do so at once. You might discover that what I'm saying has rather more merit than you realised.

Quirk

[Marc]

Admittedly I scanned the last 3 pages of long winded posts so excuse any repetition to previous posters.

Armageddon's economy is broken.  Money is beyond easy so long as one doesn't mind repetition.  Money has next to no value once someone has even a years experience in the game.  Many times much less.

I've had a multiple of characters who could compile tens of thousands of sid in a RL month.  Sometimes in a RL week depending on how much I played and where.  

Abusive?  Maybe.

Rare or specific?  Not at all.

Without really brainstorming I can think of around 6 different avenues (4 crafting) that can net more money then you could possibly spend.  I know I listed at least 20 or so in an economic breakdown to the mud account.  If you're a character with a decent haggle it just compounds itself.

The only real limit to the money you can make is how much time you're willing to invest in doing unexciting and many times solo activities.

In conclussion, the in game economy needs a serious face lift, but that'll happen about the same time that the combat code gets re-hashed.

Viva la profits.  Viva la capitalism *gag*

[spawnloser]

Okay...I will definitely agree that the economy is cracked.  I played something approximate to an independant crafter.  By the time this character got going, I could bring in nearly 10k per RL week.  This character had saved up enough to buy a building composed of a 7 room living area and a 5 room shop area (which was supposed to be built but probably got stopped due to my characters death)...on top of that, was going to buy a two story, five room wagon...but was roughly two weeks short of having the cash, based off of average earnings.  Not to mention the outfit that would net a grand total of 35k all by itself.  You should NOT be able to be an independant character and have more money to throw around (especially with a character that lived only three months RL and only used a subguild crafting skill) than a noble has to play with, and yes, I know how much money a noble PC has access to.  Not to mention that noble houses should have the best compensation for their employees than any of the merchant houses, which in turn should have better compensation for those in their employ than any indpendant should be able to make in the same amount of time.  In my train of thought, I am including lodgings (which are free to anyone anyway, another issue I will be bringing up in another thread), food and water.

On to the original argument...I am playing someone in a leadership position in the noble house clan that I play in, and I DO try to provide things for my subordinates to do, however, to paraphrase something said by ashyom in another thread, I am not an activity and RP vending machine.  My character has goals and a personality that I am NOT going to stop on just to give you something special and fun to do.  I am going to play by the rules that both my superiors have set and the internal rules that I have set for how my character would act in certain situations.  Others in leadership positions in the House, as well as myself, have been in communication with our clan IMM to try to make things more workable for the players as well as the characters.  Granted, some things get wacky sometimes when people don't realize the repurcussions of some changes, small or large, but that makes it that much more interesting.  Personally, I would hope that anyone in a leadership position in a clan would do everything they can both OOC and IC to make the clan better for those under them...in fact, I think that should be a requirement of anyone being in a leadership position.  If you can't make that kind of commitment, turn down a leadership role if offered.  That goes for every clan...noble or not.

[Quirk]

You should NOT be able to be an independant character and have more money to throw around (especially with a character that lived only three months RL and only used a subguild crafting skill) than a noble has to play with, and yes, I know how much money a noble PC has access to.

Sadly, it's hard to find a system that will allow players who wish to spend most of their time in interaction with others rather than crafting to be viable as an independent artisan without being vulnerable to those who are willing to powergame their crafting skills for vast quantities of sid. (I'm not suggesting, by the by, that you were powergaming; I have no wish to start a second huge argument). To a large extent the system as it is now relies on the players being willing to regulate themselves and accept that just because they can craft up a couple of dozen items and sell them for a few hundred sid each, it doesn't mean that they should do so or that it is realistic for them to do so. Obviously some players will abuse this more than others, but I think that's one of those things you have to accept and move on, much like accepting that there will be players who log on only to spar.

The thorny issue is that there should be a huge number of independents surviving happily off their work who are poorer than those working for the big Merchant Houses. There should be a small number of very able independents who those Houses are keeping a cautious eye on lest they expand. This happens to a certain extent in game, but the divide is drawn along player boundaries rather than character ones. Some players know the tricks to running a successful independent crafter, probably most do not. I heard a player claim that the cost of food and water made an independent unviable, and he was not by any means a new player. A lot of those players who have trouble keeping independents alive end up working for the Merchant Houses. The prosperous few usually find themselves more ambitious goals, such as expanding their business, perhaps buying a shop, and end up competing with the big Houses. I generally tend to view this as a good thing, because it leads to interesting conflict RP all round.

Incidentally, I've never come across an independent who was making any sum as ridiculous as 10K in an RL week every week until you mentioned yours. I'd hesitantly suggest that perhaps your character was the exception among independents rather than the rule.

Quirk

[spawnloser]

Personally, at the time and still yet, I was convinced that my character, in an in game month should easily (considering that a month is couple hundred days long) be able to craft up fifty items.  Considering that selling these fifty items is what I'm talking about that made my characters money...it was ridiculous.  Personally, I think WAY too much money is floating around the game.  Also, I think that some things cost too much...both for the selling and the buying.  Let's say you start with 900 'sid.  That should buy you a full outfit of clothing...normal clothing.  But, in honesty, it buys you crappy clothing if you want a complete outfit.  On the other hand, some things cost just the right amount...like a lot of foods.  Personally, I would like to see people start getting only half as much 'sid at character creation and a bunch of items' costs reevaluated.

[X-D]

10k a week for an indy is easy, I've actually had to work harder a being poor with some chars then becoming rich. Not that I minded, simply develope a spice habit, and be an archer that never goes to recover his arrows, that will put ya in the poorhouse quick.

[Quirk]

Personally, at the time and still yet, I was convinced that my character, in an in game month should easily (considering that a month is couple hundred days long) be able to craft up fifty items.  Considering that selling these fifty items is what I'm talking about that made my characters money...it was ridiculous.

The question is not so much whether it makes sense to be able to make that many items (although, when you take into account your character's "virtual" crafting, it becomes obvious that the prices are adjusted to fit a vastly lower level of actual crafting than would be theoretically ICly possible in the week) but whether there is sufficient demand out there for you to be able to sell them. Code-wise there may be, but unless all your items are being sold to PCs, you have to think good and hard whether the VNPCs are going to buy them in large numbers. For arrows or cheap stone daggers, it's likely there are plenty of people in the VNPC population ready to snap them up; for fancy jewellery, engraved daggers, silk clothing, etc, the demand is far more limited. Obviously there are enough VNPCs out there with the money to buy these things, but there are a vast number of other suppliers out there as well, particularly the large Merchant Houses.

Quirk

[Krath]

Yes there are enough to buy the items he makes Quirk, That AND more. When the mud shuts down, people buy up items, When the mud goes down on saturday, people are buying items. I do not see how there is a question about it at all.

[Quirk]

Yes there are enough to buy the items he makes Quirk, That AND more. When the mud shuts down, people buy up items, When the mud goes down on saturday, people are buying items. I do not see how there is a question about it at all.

Codewise, the shop's stock clears and there's space for more items.

Game-world-wise, there is no infinite procession of rich nobles striding past and buying up diamond necklaces five at a time. The PCs certainly don't, and the VNPCs are mostly pretty poor.

If you're selling expensive items to the shops, you should bear in mind that there are a limited number of customers who can afford such items in the game world.

Quirk

[Krath]

Game-world-wise, there is no infinite procession of rich nobles striding past and buying up diamond necklaces five at a time. The PCs certainly don't, and the VNPCs are mostly pretty poor.
.

Why not? The rich do it in real life, why not on Zalanthas? When you have money you spend it, and not necessarily on smart things. How many rich people, Rich meaning millionaires, in real life do you see with 11 $100,000 cars just because than can? Or millions of dollars in jewlery? about 85%. On top of that, if you want to say, Well, yes they would, but they are not the same item, fine. As mentioned in another thread, Just because you can craft and item and it's sdesc and mdesc is the same, does not necessarily mean the item is exactly the same.  Why is it not smart to assume the rich do not buy 5 necklaces at a time when it happens in real life?

[Quirk]

Why not? The rich do it in real life, why not on Zalanthas? When you have money you spend it, and not necessarily on smart things. How many rich people, Rich meaning millionaires, in real life do you see with 11 $100,000 cars just because than can? Or millions of dollars in jewlery? about 85%. On top of that, if you want to say, Well, yes they would, but they are not the same item, fine. As mentioned in another thread, Just because you can craft and item and it's sdesc and mdesc is the same, does not necessarily mean the item is exactly the same.  Why is it not smart to assume the rich do not buy 5 necklaces at a time when it happens in real life?

Supply and demand, Krath, supply and demand. You're forgetting that those people with all the $100,000 cars are firstly in a vanishingly small minority and secondly aren't buying a new car every week. While there will be a very few people who could afford to do so, you're competing with a vast number of other crafters to sell your wares. There's a relatively high proportion of the game-world nobility in game compared to the crafters. If you're going to try selling your uber-expensive items each week, why not seek a PC noble out and get them to buy it?

Quirk

[spawnloser]

Actually, my character was crafting normal run of the mill stuff...stuff that any commoner WOULD buy.  The expensive stuff I only made a few of.

[crymerci]

Ok, spawnloser, at the risk of stirring you up, I have to say that I know who your character was, and I always thought you crafted too much.  You appeared to have macros to take out your equipment, start the craft, a few emotes I saw repeated with little variation, and then repetition after repetition.  Maybe I was just unlucky in that that's almost all I ever saw your character do.

I rarely, if ever, saw you attempt to sell these items to PC's.  My character at the time knew your character, and would probably have bought some.  She could have bought them from Kadius (since they flooded the market there), but she could have got them for cheaper from you, and you could have made even more money, if you'd ever put forth the least effort in that direction.

Maybe fifty items a month is reasonable; I wouldn't disagree.  But some of them have to be made virtually, sold virtually, to pay for the food and water you consume virtually.  So I have to ask: why did you need that much money?  Did it seem realistic to make that much money in that short a time, regardless of the number of items you made?  I'll repeat what I said to the original poster: just because you can, does that mean you should?

I don't know, I've never been in that position.  Despite not being an idiot and having played for well over a year now, I don't know how to make thousands upon thousands of 'sid as an independent.  I even played the same subclass you did, spawnloser, and with someone providing me with an unlimited supply of materials I never crafted as much as you did.  Every independent I've ever made has had to scrape along, barely making ends meet and in some cases starving.  I think that's realistic, so the system must not be broken.  But if other people can make 10k a week being independent, I guess it's not.

I'm not trying to say that you're a twink or a powergamer.  I thought so at the time, but your explanation makes sense to me.  Fifty garments an IC month really isn't that much.  Sure, that's reasonable.  But I don't think it's reasonable for your character to have been able to buy a house, a shop, AND a wagon, based upon the work of 3 RL months.

The thing is, if you make it more difficult for you to make that much money, someone like me, who obviously just doesn't "get" how to make that kind of 'sid, won't be able to survive as an independent at all.  Maybe that's a good thing; there'd be fewer independents.  But I couldn't ever be an independent.  I guess that's what I don't like about it.

[Angela Christine]

I don't think it is a huge problem.   And when it is a problem it tends to correct itself.

Yes, if you poke around you can find ways to get fabulously wealthy faster than most people, PC, NPC or VNPC alike.  You might know where to find a certain herb or other trinkit that sells for hundreds.  You might find a crafting combo that is a money making machine.  You discover a cave full of good rocks, that yeilds a gemstone 1/10th of the time.  You might discover that you can buy a wooden shield in Tuluk and sell it for twice as much in Allanak.  Whatever, you know the tricks of the trade, like any good Ferengi-wannabe would.

Why isn't it a problem?  Because most of the time the problem corrects itself.  The person gets ambushed on the North road, ending their shield import buisness.  Or they get poisoned collecting the herb.  Or they get eaten by scrabs on the way to the rocky cave.  Many of the paths to fast-money are paved with man eating stones -- much like in real life.  You can only be lucky for so long.

Some crafts are unlikely to lead to an early death, yet still rake in the cash, and some people are able to make money in more dangerous activities without dieing the first week.  These take care of themselves too.  Sooner or later it becomes dull, the player gets bored, and moves on to something else.  Eventually you have the cool outfit you wanted, the home you wanted, the wagon you wanted, the mul love slave you wanted, or whatever financial goals your character had, plus a comfortable amount of money in the bank.  At that point, there isn't much incentive to keep doing the dangerous or boring thing.  Mostly the Basketweavers of Doom settle down after a while and spend more of their time on social roleplay.

It isn't totally inconcievable that an entrepenure will work more hours and produce more product than an employee that gets paid by the month rather than by the piece.  That happens in real life all the time.  Unless the boss is a hard taskmaster that keeps the employee's nose to the grindstone the employees tend to slack off a bit, and PCs are usually not hard taskmasters because if you are mean to your PC employees they will quit and go work for House Cushyjobs.  The entrepenure lives off whatever he makes, so he has a strong incentive to work all he can.  He has nothing to fall back on should he become sick, injured, or elderly and unable to work, so it makes sense he'd put money in the bank as insurance against future misfortunes (sure, that doesn't happen much to PCs, but ICly it is a worry).

You also have to take into account hours spent logged in.  Someone logged in 24 hours a week will make more money than someone logged in 10 hours a week.  ICly a month has gone by for both of them, but they won't be in the same position.

Like others have said, money isn't the sole component of being a rich upper-class type person.  30K in the bank is worthless unless you know what to do with it.


AC

[flurry]

Yeah..I definitely don't want to pile on spawnloser, but I would say to anyone, if you're actually making 10k/week with an independent crafter, you really should consider showing some restraint in how much you are actually crafting.    Crymerci is exactly right about virtual crafting...and think whatever you're crafting, you're going to virtually craft at least three times that probably.

...


One related concern I've had about crafters in the past was about crafters who aren't independent, who still are cranking out tons of items, but still selling them for their own profit.   That, IMHO, is ridiculous.   Especially if you're selling them to the shops owned by the House that's already paying your salary.  I remember that coming up before, I don't remember with whom, and I probably have some of the details a bit wrong (so if anyone thinks I'm talking about them, don't).    

....

But the bottom line in both cases I think, is that crafters have to show a little retraint.  If you're becoming filthy rich, maybe tone it down on the actual crafted items a bit, unless your PC has some special reason they are so exceptional that they should becoming filthy rich that way.

[Marc]

To jump to spawnlosers defense, 10k a RL week (going on the assumption that you log 2-3 hours a day in that week) is not so ludicrous.  It is also possible without crafting, and in some cases, without traveling.

All it is is boring.

Very very boring.

Take a few hours out of your money machine to RP and you lose a few K.  No biggy.  Take a few more out to try and experiment with crafts or new selling avenues and you lose a couple more grand.  No biggy.

The problem becomes more apparent when that time spent starts to bear fruit and suddenly you're making MORE obsidian because you've find new selling 'tricks' or have mastered a (new?) craft.

Class: Merchant

Subclass: crafter of some sort

Account balance: Infinite and imho w/o twinking.

Economy is a bit broke :-)  Thankfully the seams are not that noticable to the casual observer.

(That said, I've seen PLENTY of independant crafters spam craft with pre-packaged emotes.  I know the pain of trying to come up with a new way to describe twisting that feather or sanding that izdari piece, but at least blend the word order up a bit.  Don't make the mistake of including emotes in with a craft macro and try to steer clear of macro's in general.)

[spawnloser]

A little bit, in my defense, with that crafter of mine people saw me craft as much as I did because I did it in public...to advertise.  Even then, when trying to sell items to a PC, most of them didn't want it...because they could get something cheaper from the shops.  Not the item I was selling, which I always sold for less than I could get from the shops when selling to characters, and most people still wouldn't buy from me.  After a while with that character, I did settle down in my crafting, as AC said...and only made about 10-15 items a RL week, but by then the character was good enough that 15 items would net a profit of roughly 750% of the material costs...that's profit, not gross income.  Seriously, 5 hours of crafting RL over the course of a week, eventually netted a ridiculous amount of cash.  I still say that materials that should be bought should cost less and someone making items with those materials should get less money from it for those items.  At the time, I was playing roughly 8 hours a day every day except saturday...so crafting an average of 3 items a RL day (one every 3 RL hours) would make me far more money than the average noble's stipend by at least 5 times.  That isn't just a bit broke...that's downright whack...and not the wiggedy kind.

Also a bit in my defense...with that character, I had every tool that I would use in one container, so it was a 'get all' situation for that...and materials in the other.  I know a little bit about the craft in RL but not a whole lot, so I had to go with what I did know...and what the success message gave me as well as what the finished item looked like.  I wish I knew more, and any site I found couldn't give me any really useful information (as I didn't know what to do with the information available)...I wished that I had better RL experience with the craft, but it's a bit late now.

[X-D]

Hhhmm, boring?
Repitition.

Need not be, taking the RL week, make your daily play 4-5 hours, go about normal activities, hunting, patrols, socializing, mudsex, crafting, foraging, finding buyers, also, finding sellers.

All the things that make a char fun to play, and -still- make 10k no problem.

Though, I do have to say, the fastest way to get rich with a crafter -is- to buy and sell to pc's.