How rich is rich

[Tamarin]

I know, but I'm greedy.  And I know how much nobles have...especially the upper echelons..

[crymerci]

For the most part, I would agree with this....except those who want to stay with a mercenary group...because they earn a -ton- of money...

Sure, if you're already with the Byn and you want to become a career Bynner, definitely.  But to have an offer pending from a noble house and turn it down to join the Byn is ridiculous.

Yeah, it's equally silly that nobles grovel for employees.  But if it wasn't more profitable to be an independent, they wouldn't have to.  If people were realistic about the commoner's awe of nobility and wealth, they wouldn't have to.

[Delirium]

I agree, Crymerci, except there's one thing that sorta sucks:

When you're a rather sporadic player, myself for example - Sometimes I have the time to sit down for a regular mud-all-day session, and sometimes I don't play for days - or if you enjoy the less 'structured' roles, being an independant is probably much more preferrable. But heaven help you if you happened to make a human, no matter how grungy or ill-mannered - you'll have nobles slobbering all over you trying to hire you, and.. well, what can you say ICly that doesn't sound completely ridiculous? "Oh, you're offering to clean me up, give me regular food, a spiffy uniform, AND pay me more 'sid a month than most commoners make in a year? Well gee, I just don't know.."

But yet, you didn't want to be in a clan, either because it's not the sort of role you enjoy, or because you won't be able to log in at regular periods of time to RP with others. What then?

[Angela Christine]

Ok, here's my pet peeve.  Most commoners (virtual or PC) don't have great prospects for financial security.  To them, the possibility of a good job with one of the Houses would seem like the greatest blessing they had ever been offered.  However, I constantly see people telling nobles that they'd rather be independent, or that they're going to "shop around" for the best offer.  That's bullshit.  A noble offers you a job, your eyes should tear up and you should kiss the hem of their cloak.  

It is an OOC problem on both sides.  Nobles want to have PC staff, because VNPC staff are dull.  VNPCs are good at being "invisible" the way a good servant should be, but that is pretty much their only virtue.  There are only so many PCs available, so they approach PCs that really are not acceptable for the job.  Is it totally IC for a noble to be approaching random commoners and asking, "who do you work for, would you like a job?"  No.  You'd probably have to go through channels and possibly work in a lower position for a long time before you even got to talk to a noble.  The infastructure doesn't exist for that to be feasable, and few players would want to play a maid or some other kind of low servant for 6 months before they got the chance to become a personal assistant or aide.

The people playing commoner PCs had OOC goals for what kind of role they wanted to play.  If the player seriously doesn't want a noble house employee PC, then it may not be a good idea for them to take the job.  What are you going to do, play the character for another week, wrap up thier "happy ending" and retire the character because you want to play a gritty mercenary or a desperate independant, not a pampered servant or a pet in a gilded cage?  You have to be really ugly and uncouth to avoid these job offers, not just average.  It is easier if you aren't human, but most average commoners -are- human.  The number of PC half-elves is probably a little inflated, partly because half-elf is the easiest way to avoid easy job offers.  If a half-elf wants a good job she's going to have to work for it, or at least work to conceal what she is.  Other non-humans have varying degrees of difficulty.  

Of course all the non-human PCs reduce the available pool of acceptable humans to hire, so any humans left unattatched are pursued even more vigorously.  Arrrgh!  


AC

[creeper386]

You want to know whats worse. I'd think the easiest way to avoid working for a noble house was to play a tribal, born outside and currently living in the city.

Not even that works. I got told once that that 'can be worked around.' I was like, BULLSHIT, I made this character to AVOID noble houses so BACK THE FUCK UP YOU STUPID ANNOYING PERSON! Well not really. But I DID politely decline.

Anyways, I REALLY think sometimes nobles need to be kepts on a shorter leash in some areas that they seem to be giving completely roam. Or at least better guidelines. It shouldn't be every day a gritty Bynner gets cleaned up and employed by a noble house. It might happen from time to time if that bynner or filthy commoner or what not could be VERY useful, but shouldn't be every time.

And for Tek's sake, if someone isn't even city-born ... I think the only thing that tends to be not openly employed is other races and 'rinthers. I'd say just wait for people to come along or clean them up alittle before throwing them in the fancy uniform, and calling them an employee.


Creeper

[Quirk]

I strongly agree with the last several posters. Really, sid has nothing to do with this.

How often should a noble offer a dirty mercenary a place as a House guard? Hardly ever, I'd say; perhaps a mercenary from a higher social class who fell on hard times, or perhaps an officer - certainly not Joe Runner. If Noble Houses aren't going to recognise that these people are not valid targets to be hired, then the PCs being offered a job with the Noble House have to come up with some excuse to enforce realism. The first and most serious breach of realistic RP here is frequently on the side of the noble, and excuses made by the other character serve only to prevent this one-off breach from turning into a long-term embarrassment. Of course, anyone who could legitimately consider such an offer saying they want to "shop round" needs their head examined ICly.

The problem is that a fairly limited number of people come into game wanting to be House guards. Certainly, the numbers are limited compared to the number of House guard places there are. In Allanak there are three Noble Houses, all of whom want guards. For these guards to have decent chances of meeting up with each other to train and RP we can probably assume at least three guards will be needed per House. That's a minimum of nine places open in 'Nak alone. Of course, more than three may be necessary to provide the guards with overlapping playtimes so they can RP together, doing that guard thing, and noble players frequently see the PC presence of their House as reflecting their power and try to hire as many people as they can.

Now let's look at the down-side OOCly of being a House guard. The biggest problem is finding something to do, particularly if the House nobles are too caught up in city politics to find work for a humble warrior type. Whereas the Byn has frequent expeditions on a range of mercenary jobs and an independent hunter can go where they like at any time, the Houses' excursions tend to be rare and very much at the mercy of the players of House nobles. While guards will often hear of the scandals and the politics between Houses, they tend to remain uninvolved unless called on to provide muscle for an assassination attempt. If the other guards are few or inactive, they end up solo RPing through their IC schedule, which tends to be quite as tightly packed as any Bynner's.

Not being exempt from the crim-flag under any circumstances, they have no real authority to make up for their more sedate position - if a group of elves gather to shout insults at their Lord or Lady they have little recourse but to call the militia because otherwise, if they step in, the crim-code will affect them adversely. In many cases they seem to exist to do nothing but protect their noble from harm - something that the NPC guards given to each noble can do more ably.

So, what solutions can be offered? The first and most obvious would seem to be that as a noble, unless you can provide guards with a steady and interesting diet of RP, there is no call to hire them. It's all very well to say "Oh, they can make their own RP" - but they are under a number of tight restrictions by default including not leaving the city, training at set times with a scant couple of game hours of break, and all that with far fewer PCs to RP with or fun breaks than they could get in the Byn. If you hire them it is your responsibility either to ensure they have tasks they can get their teeth into or that some PC guard is given authority to override the rules with his or her subordinates and find things for them to do. One of the best moves that could be made, in my opinion, would be for the irritating IC schedules to be scrapped for any group which does not have a heavy PC presence, particularly Noble Houses with few guards. Discipline is all very well, but the OOC issue of playability has to be factored in there somewhere too.

On a codewise basis, the crim-code needs some serious attention paid to it. Apart from protecting their nobles in times of need, which is something an NPC can do quite as well, the main function of a House guard is to visit pain upon those who his or her Lord or Lady wishes to have such pain. Without having some indicator of social class in the crim-code, it's impossible to distinguish whether the victim is some no-good half-breed or elf whose beating at the hands of House guards would interest the militia not one whit or the acknowledged bastard son of Lord Fancypants himself. So the crim-code arrests everyone who is non-militia alike instead, which makes a guard's task rather harder. This is a non-trivial coding task though, so I don't expect to see a fix for that any time soon.

Quirk

[spawnloser]

Okay...I know for fact that it is annoying to be on the noble end of this equation, being a player currently playing a character in one of the noble house clans.  Someone shows some promise, has good manners and isn't too dirty?  Hire them, because that is all that is needed of a guard...but no, they want to be an independant hunter.  Hell, I've seen people say they prefer to play them...and in nearly the same breath talk about how short-lived these characters can be.  Seriously, all of you, how long does the average independant hunter last in the wastes?  How many independant hunter characters do you need to go through before it finally dawns on you that you will have a longer-lived character by accepting a guard position?

Yeah, it can be boring, sparring...but bynners do that to.  Just about anyone in a clan that I have had interaction with that is not a tribal clan has sparring to do.  When not sparring, you often stand around watching the nobles do stuff that you can't hear (unless you're clever).  However, there are a few other things to bring up...the more PC guards in the noble house, the more people to RP with through the training and the more likely for there to be overlap.  Also, training, which they are usually required to do, does not have to be mindless sparring.  Be creative, people.  There are so many things that you could do to train besides combat skills...though, of course, training those combat skills is handy...and would make you more likely to be used as a guard rather than those NPCs.  If PC guards are about, nobles should make use of them instead of or in addition to the NPCs...and I have seen it done.

All in all, I personally am tired of everyone avoiding noble houses...I'm also tired of some nobles snatching up everyone with a pulse simply because they have nothing better to do than mud for 10+ hours a day, leaving others without such luxury to wallow in a clan with much fewer PCs...since anyone willing to be hired is hired by the person with no outside life and the rest are those aforementioned 'independant wannabies.'  I know my clan IMM has said, "Stop recruiting guards, we're full," before.  I think that is something that should be done in EVERY noble house to prevent overcrowding in one clan and barren wastes in another's barracks.

[Quirk]

Seriously, all of you, how long does the average independant hunter last in the wastes?  How many independant hunter characters do you need to go through before it finally dawns on you that you will have a longer-lived character by accepting a guard position?

I think many of us would prefer to have a fun character than a long-lived one. Noble House guards are not fun unless their superiors are actively giving them fun things to do. Moreover, quite a few people feel that what the world really needs is more commoners struggling to survive and keeping that gritty Armageddon feel, not pampered errand-runners for the nobility. So they make dirty commoners instead, deliberately unsuitable for House service. This should stop the recruiters yet does not.

Yeah, it can be boring, sparring...

The problem is just not that there are boring things to do but that there is usually a lack of interesting things to do and no real chance of peacefully leaving the House if the OOC boredom renders the character unplayable.

There are so many things that you could do to train besides combat skills...though, of course, training those combat skills is handy...and would make you more likely to be used as a guard rather than those NPCs.

That training can be had in many other more interesting places where the RP when not training is far more engaging. Why sign up for a Noble House? And where's the fascination in being an NPC replacement?

All in all, I personally am tired of everyone avoiding noble houses...

Personally, I'm tired of those few people who enjoy being a guard in a Noble House complaining that those who aren't should stop playing their fun and interesting commoner roles and come spar with them.

Quirk

[spawnloser]

Wow...that was biased, Quirk.

I'll address your points in the order they were made.

Stop relying on others to make your fun for you.  There is plenty of fun to be had doing any role.  You can play a House guard and still have plenty of fun.

Dirty is dirt...people can be washed up.

Boring = not intersting...I do not see your point.

Yes, there is a way to peacefully leave House employ.  Not a single noble house hires everyone for life from the very beginning.

As far as the training in more interesting places...I just said that.  Training doesn't have to be sparring.

As far as being an NPC replacement, that's what we all are.  PCs, NPCs and VNPCs are no more or less important than each other.  Think of the NPCs being a replacement for your unskilled ass.  Get some skills and you can do your damned job instead of the noble having to rely on someone else to do it for you.

Finally, as you failed to understand several points I was trying to make, I will attempt to be a bit clearer this time...being a guard in a noble house does not mean that you have to sit and spar all day and can be both fun and interesting, but you will need to make it that way.  Do not count on someone else to entertain you by giving you things to do all day long...find yourself things to do.

[Quirk]

Stop relying on others to make your fun for you.  There is plenty of fun to be had doing any role.  You can play a House guard and still have plenty of fun.

I addressed that in my first post, discussing the restrictions on a House guard and how they effect RP. Perhaps you might like to reread it. Yes, you can have fun as a House guard, but unless your superiors take a hand, it's usually in spite of being one instead of because of it.

Dirty is dirt...people can be washed up.

That's just wrong. That's not how a heavily class-based society works. You can take the 'Rinther out of the 'Rinth, but not the 'Rinth out of the 'Rinther. Or, indeed, the Bynner out of the Byn, but not the Byn out of the Bynner.

Yes, there is a way to peacefully leave House employ.  Not a single noble house hires everyone for life from the very beginning.

Not all, these days, but most still do.

As far as the training in more interesting places...I just said that.  Training doesn't have to be sparring.

Again, that relies on superiors being ready and willing to haul their platoon somewhere more interesting. The low-ranked guard does not have authority to do that on his or her own.

As far as being an NPC replacement, that's what we all are.  PCs, NPCs and VNPCs are no more or less important than each other.  Think of the NPCs being a replacement for your unskilled ass.  Get some skills and you can do your damned job instead of the noble having to rely on someone else to do it for you.

Cute, but not OOCly true. PCs are what make the game into what it is. How many of us would continue to play if no-one else ever logged on? How many NPC spies have you come across? How many NPC merchants have the nous to go out and get something you ordered that they didn't have in stock? NPCs are very limited. And standing idle by your Lord or Lady's shoulder to protect him or her, unable to open your mouth because it's socially incorrect to interrupt, is reducing a PC to a job an NPC could as easily do.

Finally, as you failed to understand several points I was trying to make, I will attempt to be a bit clearer this time...being a guard in a noble house does not mean that you have to sit and spar all day and can be both fun and interesting, but you will need to make it that way.  Do not count on someone else to entertain you by giving you things to do all day long...find yourself things to do.

The way things stand in most Noble Houses, you're ICly restricted by your House schedule. There is no major advantage to being a guard you've described here, you're merely arguing that you can still have fun despite the restrictions. My argument is that you can have more fun without the restrictions. I have yet to see you address this.

Quirk

[spawnloser]

I addressed that in my first post, discussing the restrictions on a House guard and how they effect RP. Perhaps you might like to reread it. Yes, you can have fun as a House guard, but unless your superiors take a hand, it's usually in spite of being one instead of because of it.

No.  This I wholeheartedly disagree with, and you are missing something that could be very fun, if only you would put forth your own effort and be creative and clever about it.

That's just wrong. That's not how a heavily class-based society works. You can take the 'Rinther out of the 'Rinth, but not the 'Rinth out of the 'Rinther. Or, indeed, the Bynner out of the Byn, but not the Byn out of the Bynner.

There's a difference between a 'Rinther and a dirty commoner.

Not all, these days, but most still do.

No.  None of them do from the start.  They all have a 'trial period' of some sort.

Again, that relies on superiors being ready and willing to haul their platoon somewhere more interesting. The low-ranked guard does not have authority to do that on his or her own.

Talk to a superior beforehand.  "Hey, I suck at riding and we're supposed to go out hunting...when noone else is availble for me to spar with, would it be alright if I practiced getting the hang of telling my kank what to do?"  Like I said, be creative.  Don't count on anyone else for your fun.  Make it yourself.

Cute, but not OOCly true. PCs are what make the game into what it is. How many of us would continue to play if no-one else ever logged on? How many NPC spies have you come across? How many NPC merchants have the nous to go out and get something you ordered that they didn't have in stock? NPCs are very limited. And standing idle by your Lord or Lady's shoulder to protect him or her, unable to open your mouth because it's socially incorrect to interrupt, is reducing a PC to a job an NPC could as easily do.

You are missing something, again, the part of the quote of mine that you cut out.  No PC is more important than an NPC, just because they are a PC.  In fact, there are NPCs out there more important than ANY PC in the game.  PCs help shape the world, but they do NOT make it.  Also, to address this whole, "I don't want to do something an NPC could," mentality you seem to have, standing around is also a perceived thing...you can be using the Way (even with your noble charge, giving advice and asking things, being an interactive guard instead of a nearly inanimate one), listen, think...as I've said before and will say again, Quirk, be creative and clever...stop relying on others to hand-feed you your fun.

The way things stand in most Noble Houses, you're ICly restricted by your House schedule. There is no major advantage to being a guard you've described here, you're merely arguing that you can still have fun despite the restrictions. My argument is that you can have more fun without the restrictions. I have yet to see you address this.

You can have more fun without any and all restrictions...like staying in character, but are you going to advocate that as well?  All roles come with restrictions....live with it and have fun with them is what I'm saying.  I'm not saying that you should have fun in spite of them.

[Quirk]

I addressed that in my first post, discussing the restrictions on a House guard and how they effect RP. Perhaps you might like to reread it. Yes, you can have fun as a House guard, but unless your superiors take a hand, it's usually in spite of being one instead of because of it.

No.  This I wholeheartedly disagree with, and you are missing something that could be very fun, if only you would put forth your own effort and be creative and clever about it.

I am clever, and I am creative. My characters frequently set plots in motion that end up embroiling large numbers of other people. I do not have the same scope to do this within a House barracks. There are more restrictions on House guards - can you dispute this?

There's a difference between a 'Rinther and a dirty commoner.

From a noble's point of view there isn't. A 'Rinther is just a dirty commoner from a slightly worse neighbourhood. They're both lower-class. Guards are middle-class. People do not cross class boundaries just like that, not unless there is an exceptional reason for them to do so.

No.  None of them do from the start.  They all have a 'trial period' of some sort.

Uh, that still fails to address the longterm OOC boredom issue I was talking about, when it ceases to be fun.

Talk to a superior beforehand.  "Hey, I suck at riding and we're supposed to go out hunting...when noone else is availble for me to spar with, would it be alright if I practiced getting the hang of telling my kank what to do?"  Like I said, be creative.  Don't count on anyone else for your fun.  Make it yourself.

I'm sorry, but I find spamming ride infinitely less fun than engaging in shady dealings or subtle politics or cutting business deals or even, come to that, having to hunt just to stay alive. But hey, if learning to ride works for you, I'm glad to hear it.

You are missing something, again, the part of the quote of mine that you cut out.  No PC is more important than an NPC, just because they are a PC.  In fact, there are NPCs out there more important than ANY PC in the game.  PCs help shape the world, but they do NOT make it.  

And you missed my very first sentence. Here it is again:

Cute, but not OOCly true.

Without PCs to RP with, Armageddon would be a dull place. There would be no game worth playing. It is the PCs who make the world worth staying in. If all the PCs stood in the bazaar all day long with a basket full of wares and acted like NPCs, the game would be equally worthless. I think from this we can deduce that PC input into the RP experience is vital.

Also, to address this whole, "I don't want to do something an NPC could," mentality you seem to have, standing around is also a perceived thing...you can be using the Way (even with your noble charge, giving advice and asking things, being an interactive guard instead of a nearly inanimate one), listen, think...as I've said before and will say again, Quirk, be creative and clever...stop relying on others to hand-feed you your fun.

Oh wait, using the Way? That certainly makes up for not being able to steal off into a corner and actually RP face to face with another PC. But... your noble has no need for your advice ICly, unless you're a very important guard or they're bending the IC guidelines to make your play experience more enjoyable (see an earlier point I've repeated several times now). Well, you can always way someone else instead of going over and RPing with them. That beats playing a character where you didn't have to stand round waying people.

And I didn't even touch on the difficulty of using the Way standing until you're really quite skilled at it. I thought that was generous of me.

You can have more fun without any and all restrictions...like staying in character, but are you going to advocate that as well?  All roles come with restrictions....live with it and have fun with them is what I'm saying.  I'm not saying that you should have fun in spite of them.

I personally would not have more fun without staying in character. Nor, I suspect, would most people who RP with me. I will happily accept any restrictions that enhance the roleplay experience for everyone. To my mind, the Byn schedule usually does that, as there are normally sufficient Bynners to ensure that it can be kept to without long periods of solo RP. In most Houses there are not enough guards to make such a schedule worthwhile. Moreover, the lack of breaks in routine and the decorum expected of a House guard add up to restrictions that in the hands of superiors unwilling to cater to their subordinate's needs for more interesting fare are every bit as damaging, in my view, as introducing coded penalties for not getting sleep in game would be.

Quirk

[spawnloser]

Well, I'm tired of this argument...I should have gone to be after getting home from work over an hour ago too, so I will just say the following.

You still don't get it.  There are restictions on anyone in a clan.  Live with it.  Guards are lower class; 'Rinthers are 'Rinthers.  I said be creative...you can do more than just "spamming ride" which is not very creative, if you ask me.  As far as missing that little sentence there, I did not.  And yes, it is OOCly true...maybe not to you, but to the game.  I never said that you can only interact with NPCs.  You can also always have something to do when playing a guard...which is not always the case when someone plays an indpendant hunter that makes more money than they should because the character is powerplayed.  So...who makes more sense?  Oh, and about the Way?  I don't care if it's hard.  Get better.  That's something else you can practice.  Now, also, from numbers of PCs in the Byn and PCs in some of the other clans I've been in, your entire arguement about schedules is irrelavant to me...I disregard it.  Oh, and if you don't like the superiors, go find other ones.  Personally, I hope you do try to get into the noble house that I play in currently so you can see what is being done there...but at the same time, I'm tired of you and your being argumentative and nitpicky...not to mention stubborn and unwilling to listen to another's point of view.

[X-D]

Quirk wrote:

Noble House guards are not fun unless their superiors are actively giving them fun things to do.

Heh.

I once had a quite long lived Dwarf in Tor, In the first IC year of his being hired, the rest of the guards managed to die.

Noble presence, close to 0, imm presence 0 for his first 10 ic years at least.

Still one of the most fun chars I've played. Recruited, rebuilt the guard, and paid people from his own pocket, which was interesting since he was only paid 2x in that first 10 years. Only bit of help was the senior aide of the house at the time.

Later I played a char in a newly opened house with a very active and helpful Imm, with a very dynamic noble, this was also fun, but even then I did not just wait around for them to give me something to do.

As for house guard restrictions limiting what you can do, plotwise and such, Heh, I've ALWAYS been able to get more going from a house guard position, maybe different then what I can do as an indy, but many of the things you can't do indy.

To the statement of most houses not having enough pc's, Well, if the house you are in does not have enough pc's, -DO- something about that.
Even if your char cannot recruit directly, there is no reason why they can't feel people out and talk to them, maybe get them interested, then find your recruiter (noble or officer) If these people do not exist or are rarely on get ahold of your imm.  

Not like a noble or clan imm is going to complain about a char taking an active interest in improving the house/guard, plus, odds are your char will be pickier then the normal recruiter.

[My 2 sids]

I agree with people who say House PCs are over paid, they are.  It's an honor to work for a house and that alone should be a large driving force.  Not to bring up old debates but again, societies such as in game are –not- run by money.  The nobility and anyone they associate with, are better than others –because- they are associated with a house name.  Outside of maybe a few luxuries or drinks, workers of the nobility and other prestigious organizations don't need a lot of money!   If we have to make this about money then I offer the fact that food and water for a house with hundreds plus to feed and water and clothe and shelter... that's going to add up, even by noble standards, to be a LOT of sid.  Nobles can't afford a ton of sids in pay.

One other money issue I think can be addressed in this thread, independent PCs.  Independents aren't paid for virtual work, as clanned people are; and thus don't even have a chance to make near a livable profit.  Even though the docs state that people, such as merchants, are some of the wealthiest.  Instead of working on plot lines or interacting at taverns or what have you, independents must spend a great deal of their time role-playing them making money.  I think if independents could afford better equipment and afford to live longer, the game as a whole would benefit.  It would mean independent people would be able to last long enough and have time enough to give more to the game as a whole.  I'd even like to see one or two Imms or helpers who can help people who want to have independent characters.  

Being able to afford to go independent for a while would also help so that not everyone has this sudden need to rush out to find work in a house.  And be able to wait to see if the house is willing to accept them after a huge background and personality check.  Its hard to create a feeling of supperiority when clan members seem to beg people to be hired.

[X-D]

Um, What?

It's obscenly easy to make money as an independant.
I've had independant chars that were special ordering gear inside of 2 ic years and when they died (5-10 ic years later normaly) had bank accounts in exess of 30k.

Independents aren't paid for virtual work, as clanned people are; and thus don't even have a chance to make near a livable profit.  Even though the docs state that people, such as merchants, are some of the wealthiest.  Instead of working on plot lines or interacting at taverns or what have you, independents must spend a great deal of their time role-playing them making money.  I think if independents could afford better equipment and afford to live longer, the game as a whole would benefit.  It would mean independent people would be able to last long enough and have time enough to give more to the game as a whole.  I'd even like to see one or two Imms or helpers who can help people who want to have independent characters.  

Even as another class playing a merchant, you can amass huge amounts of wealth. Grow wealthy enough to piss off the merchant houses, have people KNOW you are rich and try and sell you all kinds of weird shit you might not see. Give outraeous bribes and bounties. (my favorite, outrageous bounties). Managing your subordinates without a coded clan can be interesting and challenging. An independant trying to make the big time has to run the gauntlet of conflict and politics. That's only if you want to be big. If you want to just stay small, its ridiculously easy to be wealthy enough. Oh and trying to build a reputation as someone who can deliver.  Lots of Rp opportunity for independants.

[grog]

It seems to me that there are a lot of people who think that both those working for houses and those working for themselves get too much money.  I've got an easy answer to that, they should drop all that extra money into the bottomless bag o' oblivion, ignore the elf holding the bag, he is just a NPC.

[A noble]

The simple fact is, I need PCs.  I will always prefer to accomplish things by using PCs, rather than standing around emoting for some vNPCs and NPCs and then sending off a log.  I can't advance plots without PCs.

I don't hire every Tom, Dick, and Harry.  Even if I did, for every ten PCs I hire, four of them will disappear, three of them will die, and two will wash out of training.  That's just within the first game-year of hiring them.  The remaining hire is going to get tired of sparring after that first year and want to go on missions, nevermind the fact that he doesn't have the skills to survive one.  The end result is that I'm almost always hiring, and usually still suffering attrition in my numbers.  I'm personally very picky with who I hire, but not on the basis of how dirty or ill-mannered someone is.  If your first year of training doesn't whip you into shape, then I consider how dirty or ill-mannered you are.

As for giving the employees something to do, it's not all about the RPTs.  Those are nice, but there are other things as well.  I can think of some recent instances though where I gave the Guard something to do, and absolutely nothing came of it, so the door swings both ways.  I can't get people involved in things if they won't get involved.

It's frustrating to read posts like Quirk's, but this isn't about him in particular.  I'm sure there are other players who feel much the same as he does.  My frustration stems not from the specific content of his posts either, but the way it's applied.  It's not, "I had a couple (or several) experiences like this."  It's, "All experiences are like this."  It's an insult to efforts that don't match up with a blanket statement like that.  It also makes it that much harder to change things for the better, because there are going to be good players out there who are going to either assume that their bad, boring experience in a noble house is all that there is, or who won't try because it's being broadcast that bad, boring experiences are all that there is.

[Angela Christine]

I agree with most of what Quirk said.  

I too would rather have a fun character than a long-lived one, if I had to choose just one or the other.  Who wouldn't?  Why would you want to be bored for a looong time?  You don't need a game to do that, you can do it in real life.    In the past I've had characters that I've painted into corners so restrictive that I was OOCly praying for death.  It isn't necessarily the role, but how I was playing the role.  I once had a personal aide to a noble who was very tied up in her noble, and no other strong relationships, only cautious aquaintences.  So when the noble was killed and she was made a junior aide to the House, she was adrift and I was adrift with her.  Once she knew the killer had been caught and put to death she had no goals in life.  I can't blame the other players in the clan, the clan imm, or people outside the clan, because they were all great about dealing with her.  It was just the story I wove about her left us with no where to go when her driving obsession was abruptly removed.  The role became intollerably dull to me, to the point where it became an effort to log in at all.

I don't know exactly why I find it more ammusing to ride alone from 'Nak to Luirs' Outpost, stopping along the way to gather plants or forage for materials, with the occasional wild ride to escape the clutches of gith or beasties, than to sit alone in a clan compound with a city-restricted character.  I'm solo-playing either way, and while in the city you have a better chance of running into other PCs and having some fun interaction.  Nevertheless I would rather be riding around doing nothing than sitting around doing nothing.  It's a puzzler.  I guess I just have to accept that some people, like me, do enjoy it more.  

It is good that Armageddon allows a variety of roles.  I accept that independant hunters, merchents and scavengers contribute less per capita to the plot arch than clanned characters do.  But they do contribute.  It would not be helpful if those roles were not available or were restricted somehow so that only a reasonable portion of playerbase could be playing independants at one time.  Would it force more people to play clannies?  Maybe a few, more likely the players that prefer independants would go play somewhere else.  There is no reason to look down on people who like playing independants, because independants do contribute, even if they die more often.  Independants find cool places, tell someone important, which can lead to a clan RPT where the important people go to investigate.  Independants bring in exotic and mundane materials that the clanned sometimes can't go get for themselves, like herbs and branches.  Brewing up potions or making arrows with those materials gives the clanned something to do during the quiet times.


I can think of a couple things that could improve the situation:

1)  Opportunities for "associate" members.  Many clans already do this to some extent.  They aren't members of the clan and they don't get access to the barracks, but the do jobs for the clan as the opportunity arises.  Associates don't have to be good enough to wear the livery, so even elves and 'rinthers can be hired for this kind of work.  Sometimes an associate will join the clan after a while, because they know ICly and OOCly that they have a good group to play with.  Usually they don't have to go through the annoying recruit phase, because they have already proven themselves and shown that they aren't going to do something stupid and themselves killed next week.

Merchant clans are often willing to buy materials directly from independant suppliers.  It is a bit of a pain for an independant to wait around for someone to show up and collect the goods, but it's worth it for the chance to build up those relationships, and if no one shows up they still have the option to sell the stuff to NPC shops.  Occasionally I'll hear of a Noble house that wants to buy jasper, alabaster, thornwood, jakhal hides, live gwoshis or baby erdlu.  And nothing else.  This is cool, it gives independants something to shoot for, and gets them involved with clans without being chained to them.

Other associates can simply keep their eyes and ears open, and report back any interesting tidbits they pick up, getting a small payoff each time.  

Still others, usually ones who have proven their reliability over time, will be invited along on missions outside the city, filling out the party.  If you only have 3 PC guards/hunters in your clan, then you are limited to where it is "safe" and reasonable to go.  But if you hire on some mercinaries for the job you have more options.  They Byn is great for this, but sometimes you don't want a random group of mercenaries, you want particular trustworthy individuals.

2) Make the schedual optional, and make sure everyone knows it is optional, make the schedual something you do when there is nothing else to do.  My impression is that the scheduals are there for OOC reasons to prevent people from sparring too much, not to make sure they spar enough.  The schedual makes sure you don't over-do coded activities to an unrealistic extent, and that's a good thing.  But a schedual that tells you have to spar or log out, especially when there is no one to spar with and you don't want to solo-spar, doesn't help.  Telling you that you are supposed to be attending a lesson in ettiquette, desert survival or equipment maintenance when there is no PC available to teach the lesson just makes the schedual look stupid.  Do not eliminate the scheduals, you still don't want people sparring all day every day, or whatever awful things they would do left to their own devices.  In addition to the schedual create a list of things that are acceptable options to the schedual (though you would still have to do what your superiors say, so if a PC superior is logged on they can run the schedual, or some other activity).  

Potential activities:

a) Practice riding inside the city.

b) Go shopping.  Now that many shops are closed at night when clanned PCs have free time it is hard to get your personal shopping done.

c) Walk around.  Not quite a formal patrol, but walk around the compound, the marketplace, or the city as a whole.  Get a feeling for what is going on, take the pulse of the city.  You just might see something worth reporting.

d) Socialize/networking.  Go sit in a tavern and talk to people.  Shoot the shit.  While you are doing this you might encounter potential new recruits, potential customers, people who are looking for someone in your clan or want to leave a message for them, potential competators, etc.  While sitting around you gather information, and information is power.

e) Go hunting or gathering.  Make a rule that you have to have X number of people, and that you can only go to certain areas or a certain distance from the city, to make it safer, but let them go out without needing permission from some Noble or Agent that may not always be around to give permission.  That way they are still logged in, and if the clan needs them for something specific they can be recalled via the Way.  Most clans can use more meat and materials, ICly, even if they have one of those magical cooks that produce unlimitted amounts of food from nothing.  

f) Craft junk, even if you weren't hired as a crafter.  If you use clan owned materials, then the result belongs to the house so you can't go sell it.  It gives people something to do, some people hate crafting, but if they like it why not let them do it?

I'm sure people could think of other things that would make being clanned more enjoyable for people who don't like being chained to an ironclad schedual.  What sort of activities are appropriate will depend on the clan, but I'm sure there are some things each clan could think of.


Angela Christine

[JollyGreenGiant]

Optional schedules would be a bad idea, I think.  Let's face it, if it's already hard to find a sparring partner when you're supposed to be somewhere at a designated time, how is making that time slot option going to improve matters?  I'd rather show up at practice time and solo-rp in the hopes that halfway through, someone else will in fact log on.  If I just wandered off, then if someone else does log on, they're just going to wander off too.

Some of AC's suggestions for activities were great though.  One thing I've always thought I should see more of is gambling.  I mean, you're a commoner with a steady income, food, and shelter, and you're bored... that sounds like a gambling addiction just waiting to happen, to me.

[Quirk]

It's frustrating to read posts like Quirk's, but this isn't about him in particular.  I'm sure there are other players who feel much the same as he does.  My frustration stems not from the specific content of his posts either, but the way it's applied.  It's not, "I had a couple (or several) experiences like this."  It's, "All experiences are like this."

Hey, be fair. I tried to make it clear that a good superior will provide for their subordinates RP-wise and that the problems I mentioned were not necessarily an issue in that case. My little rants were not directed at those nobles who're doing their level best to keep RP in a Noble House fun for all concerned, nor those officers in said Houses who're doing the same. My chief point was that given the strict IC schedules of most Houses, superiors who're unwilling to take on the responsibility of providing RP for those under them are a Bad Thing and stop many people wanting to play in Noble Houses. This desire to avoid the Houses leads to a good number of the best players making characters of a social class unsuitable for recruitment, and their opinion of the Houses is usually further soured by the recruiters' dogged determination to ignore social boundaries.

As far as JollyGreenGiant's comment on sparring goes - if your schedule lets you get your RP elsewhere, who cares if you have a sparring partner? You're still enjoying your RP and contributing to the world, hopefully. Anyway, if someone logs on, they can way you.

Quirk

[spawnloser]

I've been trying to tell everyone...be creative.  I have already advocated something similar to the 'optional schedule' thing, but in a structured way.

Still, Quirk, though, you seem to still miss the point that superiors should not have to provide you with RP.  They are not here to amuse you.  They are here to be amused just like you are.  Make your own damned fun.

[Quirk]

Still, Quirk, though, you seem to still miss the point that superiors should not have to provide you with RP.  They are not here to amuse you.  They are here to be amused just like you are.  Make your own damned fun.

Still, spawnloser, you seem to miss the point that given the default restrictions on Noble House guards, there's more of that damned fun to be made elsewhere unless the superiors redress the balance.

Quirk

[spawnloser]

Still, spawnloser, you seem to miss the point that given the default restrictions on Noble House guards, there's more of that damned fun to be made elsewhere unless the superiors redress the balance.

Okay...Why is it someone else's job to make changes that you see as a problem?  Just fucking do something about it.  It has been (/is being) done in the noble house I'm involved in.  If you want anyone to change, change them...don't rely on them to change themselves just because you bitched.