How rich is rich

[Gar]

Just as in real life, rich is relative.  My inlaws have a decent amount of wealth.  After living close to them over the years I have come to the opinion (which they hold) that they are comfortable, not rich.  My side of the family however is very impressed with their money.  They'd call them rich, as I would have at one point.  It really depends on your perspective.

I've always played my characters like I am in real life, careful with my money.  I sock away all the extra sids I can get, saving for something I'll probably never need.  I keep swearing that I'm going to have a character that spends all his sids like a drunken sailor whenver he gets flush, creating incentive for him to go off and make the next score  One that never enters the bank, carrying everything on him.  That's my idea anyway, although my frugal personality is hard to fight.

[Bogre]

The difference between different noble's and riches is very distinct. If you can get more sid then that stinking opposing house muscling in on your business, then you can control them through economics, more or less.

Dictators/Rulers always have need of money, even if its not for themselves, and just an incentive for people to follow them.

[Angela Christine]

I keep swearing that I'm going to have a character that spends all his sids like a drunken sailor whenver he gets flush, creating incentive for him to go off and make the next score  One that never enters the bank, carrying everything on him.  That's my idea anyway, although my frugal personality is hard to fight.

Easy fix, just set up your character in one of the many places that doesn't have a bank.  The bank only has, what, two well known and easily accessible branches in the entire known world?  If you don't live near one of those branches, you probably wouldn't want to keep your money with them.  Sure, if you live in Red Storm then 'nak isn't really that far away, but between storms, critters, gith, and the gates of both towns being closed 1/3 of the time you can't be sure that you would be able to get your hands on your cash in a hurry if you needed to.  And do you really trust those Nakkies with your money?  I wouldn't.

I've also met characters (mostly elves) that simply did not trust that Nenyuk would correctly keep track of their money and hand it over upon request.  Sure, OOCly you know the code isn't likely to screw you, but ICly you can't be certain those Nenyuk bastards won't skim or steal your money.  If your elf, half-elf, half-giant, 'rinther, or other unwashed scum claims that they had 1000 'sid with Nenyuk, and Nenyuk says, "no, this person never had an account with us" or "no, they only had 85 coins here," who do you think the law is going to believe?  It isn't like they give out passbooks or reciepts, so you have no way to prove how much money you gave them.

Once you find a way to avoid banks, avoiding wealth is easy.  Obsidian coins don't weigh much each, but when you get thousands of them they really start weighing you down.  

For most characters there isn't a good reason to keep more than a couple thousand sid in the bank, even if they use banks.  Unless you are saving up for a big ticket item spend your money, enjoy it while you've got it.  Buy a new weapon, just to see what it's like.  Buy (and use) overpriced linen strips, (which for some reason cost waaay more if they are called bandages then if they were entire bolts of fabric) even if you don't need them.   Get some cool tattoos.  Get drunk.  Become a spice addict.  Buy new pants just because you like the color, regardless of their coded attributes, then sell them a few months later when they get raggedy.  Be a slave to fasion, buying a new outfit every month when Kadius rotates their inventory.  Buy one of each variety of mount available, and decide which one is your favorite.  Get one of each color of kank, so that your kank always matches your outfit.  Let it get around that you are into exotic mounts, and you'll pay some excessive amount for a trained gwoshi, wild born kank, or other rare wild mounts.  Take up crafting, but buy your supplies rather than collecting them yourself.

In real life you may be careful with money, but in real life you probably don't carry a sword everywhere you go, routinely get into fights where somebody dies, or ride to work on a giant insect.  Live a little.

As for being rich, I think spending money makes your richer than having money.  You don't get intrest or dividends on cash in the Nenyuk bank.  Cash on hand can easily be stollen away by raiders or pickpockets.  Rich people own stuff.  Stuff like houses, wagons, shops, and slaves.  Rich people have employees.  Rich people have influence.  Money in the bank helps, because it takes time to save up enough money to buy a hut, stall or wagon of your own, but money that just lays there doing nothing is useless.


Angela Christine

[Rindan]

I think of Allanaki (or any rich person for that matter) rich the same way I think of rich people in the old U.S.S.R.  In the USSR, if some guy came up to you and gave you a fortune, you would still be poor.  Simply having money would not overcome the fact that all things were bought with politics.  Stores closed to you that have western goods would not suddenly open up.  You would still wait in line for food, and it would still be the same bland crap everyone else gets.  You wouldn't be able to buy a car.  Money is only one component of true wealth once you leave a capitalist system.

A commoner will never, be as rich as a noble for this reason.  No mater how much money a commoner has, the commoner still could never get the same things a noble could, and in truth the noble could probably find a way to simply take the commoners money.  That is not to say that some commoners might not get a pile of 'sid and live comfortable lives, but they will never be truly rich.  The only ways to truly get rich are inside of merchant houses, noble houses, and to a small extent by living outside of the city states.

You just need to realize that wealth is not something that is purely based upon money.  If you gave a poor man with reasonable intelligence on the streets of US a billion dollars, he would be considered rich by every account and be able to gain pretty much anything any other billionaire could gain.  Do the same on Zalanthas and at the best that person could live an easier life without work, but would never be able to get the things a noble or ranking merchant house member with the same (or even less) money could get.  Politics is as important as the actual money.

[Delirium]

The most fun I ever had with a character was one that would get a couple thousand 'sids in the bank and blow it all on spice, tattoos, and fancy silks. Then she'd start running low, scramble frantically for her next score, then once flush again, blow it all once more. And on and on. Yet at one point she was the richest character I've ever had. And at one point she had less than 100 sids even though she was dressed head to toe in silks and covered in tattoos.

It was great.

[Twilight]

Rindan, if you were that rich in Armageddon, you could buy your own House.  An instance would be Delann buying Kohmar.  That was a PC thing.

I think it is dependent on where you are but:
Rinth dweller - 100 sid and you are rich because it is enough to eat on

Commoner - 10,000 sid and you are rich because you don't worry about rent, or food, or many pleasures in life

Merchant - 50k - 100k and either your own wagon or house/shop and you are rich because you have enough money and resources to have your own reasonably sized business

Noble - You are born into a top tier House, or are a senator or house head of any house because you simply kick ass

Templar - You are rich, even if you don't have a sid to your name, because you can make the next elf you see give you half of his sid

[Akaramu]

Pretty, but starving girl approaches the filthy rich house member, holding her nearly collapsing stomach:

Her: "How about some company for 50 sids?"
Him: "50 sids? Ha! I have a lot more to spend today."
Him: "Wait, what exactly do you consider company?"
Her: (with fluttering eyelashes) and already daydreaming of a loaf of bread: "Myself.. anything you like."
Him: (turning his back) "Nah. 50 sid is a lot of money, and I dont know if you are worth it."

In that very moment, she wished she was an assassin.

[Akaramu]

...and then there was stunned silence.

*hums a happy tune*

[Trenidor]

IMO the people that work for houses (Including runners) are overpaid wimps.
As it is stated somewhere that the average commoner recives around 300 sid a year, people that make 100 sid a month plus free food should be shot! Twice!

 Here's the math of a commoner that works -INSIDE THE WALLS- (theres a huge difference here because of water cost)

Note: Said commoner is the average herb picker who on average finds an herb worth picking once a week which usually goes for around 5 sid at the local distributer.

        21 weeks x 5 sid = 105 sid a month

        105 income - 80 monthly food costs (eats a travel cake once every two weeks and drinks water around that time)

        that leaves 25 sid to keep in his pocket for when he's starving/ finds a cool herb cutting knife down in the elven market

       poof the next month comes:

       Said commoner earns more than average this time on one of his pickings and lands the big 150 this month (OH YEAH!!! cha-ching)

       150 - 80 food

       70 - 20 celebritory dinner (earned by making extra for this month

       50 + 3 sid from last month after buying a new knife

       53 - 50 Bandage price (had a brush in with a duskhorn)

        = 3 sid (big shrug with no increase from previous month)

       Poof next month:

       Poor said commoner...this month he was stucken in bed from his injury for 2 weeks, after going back to work he was quickly faced with hunger pains when he didn't find herbs for the next 5 weeks. This month our said commoner only recived 70 sid.

       73 -  70 food

       Hunger pains included for that couple weeks without food


        Good news though, next month he was asked to brush up the foreigner from allanak and was paid 200 that month + herb pickings ( GO SAID COMMONER!!!) :twisted:

[creeper386]

As it is stated somewhere that the average commoner recives around 300 sid a year, people that make 100 sid a month plus free food should be shot! Twice!

So the people that work for clans still make 300 a year with 100 sid a month, but they get free food, and water.

Runners are wimps? I'm guessing your talking about Bynners. Only orginaztion I've heard use runners. Sure they get free food, but it's not mekillot steaks. They get the beat kicked out of them all the time. They shovel crap. They DON'T get payed, and they have a slim chance of surviving their first real mission! Yeah. Overpaid wimps.

Anyways... If PCs didn't make as much as they tend to when not in a clan and not hunting/foraging/cooking food. They can very well spend almost all their money on eating just travel cakes. For me... I don't think the things that PCs eat and buy are even the low end stuff most people eat and use. As if it were it's unlikely anyone could afford anything, and not even the templarate could stop criminal activity from destroying the city... Or if they did there'd be mass starvation followed up by most likely some plagues, and on and on and on.

I'd say that PCs just commonly live in the more uppercrust of society. Even if you want to be a poor beggar that just barely scrapes by you'd probably have to make more then the other richer working virtual people. That'd be my guess. Especially where food is situated. Honestly, I don't see why the taverns would even CARRY food at the prices they must need to sell in order to make a profit. A small meal costing a months pay? Nah. Thats alright. Except maybe the Trader's that caters to the VERY rich... I don't see any of the taverns selling their food at the price they advertise.


Creeper who has complained about this before, and will again most likely.

[Lasakar]

I earn between 100 and 400 Sids per day, without being a member of a house. Its hard and dangerous work (and legal! :wink:). But most of the money is spend for better equipment and replenish. Sometimes I buy pure luxury. And the rest of the money will be put on my account.

So I have no problem if somebody earns a lot more or nothing. Most PC could make money out there and don't need to cry here. It's like real life...

[Trenidor]

Good Point Creeper.

Maybe when they say: "The average citizen earns around 300 sid a year" that they mean 300 sid extra pay that is counted income at the end of the year....

I'm just saying though that I'd like to see the pay amounts decreased for some of the houses (some places are okay where they're at  :wink: ) Zalanthas is supposed to be a frikkin hard life; most likely, all commoners have suffered hunger pains at one time or the other, even the rich commoners had to start somewhere or else they'd be called nobles.

Maybe I should revise my statement about eatting just trabel cakes and water around once every two weeks (some people might only drink that much, it could vary depending on how much you are actually online with your character) Anyway, I'm going to restate the thing about travel cakes

If you ever go to the smaller taverns and bars around tuluk (not sanctuary, they are over priced and are for rich merchants) you will notice that you can get a meal for around 5 - 15 sid and something to drink for 15-20 sid just at the smaller taverns. Thats 20 sid for a complete meal, and most people don't need a complete meal all the time.

Zalanthans are Stonger than Earthens, they must have a high endurance rate that allows them to not be so hungry or thirst as much as us normal earthens. Also, I think that alot of us think OOC that the average life of a zalanthan is about the same as our average lives [insert where you live].
Evedently you are in a higher like seociety because you -have- computer access, and other things that allow people to be lazyish upper class people. I'm sure that the life of the poorer people in the United States is going to be better off then the richer commoner in Old Testement Isreal / Bible times.

[grog]

I've had characters who were more impressed with the free food in some clans then any of the 'sid they were paid.  The cheapest beer in Allanak is about 6-9 'sid, two to three beers an evening, and even more on weekends.   But we will even it out to an even 2 beers a day, makes it about 2772 'sid a month, and that's just for some cheap ass beer!  Now since a lot of that drinking is virtual, I assume it's mainly virtual funds, but still most months I still have to be dry for at least a few weeks.  

So in my character's opinion, he's rich when he can afford to spend 20 to 40 'sid on the good stuff, and impress pretty girls by buying them expensive drinks.

[Angela Christine]

I'm just saying though that I'd like to see the pay amounts decreased for some of the houses

The problem with that is that you can make more than 300 per IC year by going a few leagues from the city to collect stone or wood to sell.  There are a variety of activities that bring in piles of 'sid, unfortunately most of them are suicidally dangerous, but you can't have everything.  Being in a clan should be better than being an independant, and in some ways it is, but in other ways it isn't.  

The biggest boon of a clan is a safe place to sleep (not that they'll let you do anything dangerous enough that you need to sleep).  

The second thing they supply is a place to store your stuff.  These places are usually a little safer than a cheap apartment.  I get stuff stolen either way, but in a clan compound they usually don't take absolutely everything, just the stuff they can actually use.  I've lost at least a few items in every clan I've used storage space in.  I haven't lost my stuff every time I rented my own place, but when I was robbed they usually took everything including the fixtures.  So on the whole clan storage seems to be superior, at least if you can't afford a place with a really good lock.

Some clans have a free stable.  This sounds cool, but in practice it is pretty worthless if it is the "open" style of stable rather than the ticketed style.  I've been in two clans that had open stables, in both other people with access to the stable assumed that all the animals there "belonged" to the clan and anyone could take them.  Take them accross the known world and leave them in a stable in another town if they wanted to.  Fine, I'll keep paying to keep _my_ animals in the public stable.  I don't care if you take my kank after I die, but keep your mitts off until then.  There is nothing like an open stable to make me wish my character was literate, so I could leave a note on the kank telling people it belongs to me!  

Free food and/or water.  This is nice, it's a perk.  Usually as an independant I can make enough money that I'm rarely short on food and water, but it is comforting to know that it will be there even if I'm having an unlucky week.  I did have an independant die of dehydration once, but only because someone stole my kank, my money, and most of my equipment including my damned boots.  The recent increase in thirst rates has made this perk even more valuable.

I think I've solved the riddle of the 300 a year income.  It's an average, 300 a year per person.  Some people are very old, very young, or very sick, and can't make 300 year.  They might not make any money at all.  Suppose you have a family with a mom, dad, grandma, brother and sister.  Dad makes 600 a year as a stonecutter.  Mom makes 800 a year as a guard.  Grandma looks after the home and the kids, and together they do enough basketweaving to bring in another 200 a year.  So the family of 5 makes 1600 a year, just over 300 per person.  They rent a cheap 300 a month room in a tenement, and since there is usually someone home  it doesn't get robbed too often.  The kids have been chewing on the table legs, so even when the house is empty the furnature isn't worth stealing.  

PCs rarely have non-virtual dependants.  They don't have kids or grandparents back home that are depending on them, and they don't have a deadbeat brother-in-law that is always borrowing money.  Every 'sid they earn they can spend on themselves, and if they get food and water as part of their job, then they can spend every 'sid on luxuries.  That is rare.  Most people do have dependants, because most people are not childless orphans whose entire family were massacred by gith. :roll:  

PCs don't just make more money than VNPCs, they also have fewer expenses.  Most don't bother to pay the rent.  Most don't have dependants.  Most never pay a cent in taxes (they may pay fines if they get on the bad side of a Templar, but not taxes.)  Many will wear the same pair of pants for years and years, if they live that long, and see nothing with wearing heavy armor (or a fancy silk and lace outfit) every hour of the day and night for their entire lives no matter what activities they are engaged in.  Since they avoid reasonable expenses, they have a large disposable income.


Angela Christine

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

AC makes a great point about PC's lives, in that they don't typically roleplay out having kids, or a home, etc. She also makes a point while not actually making one: PC house robbing is pathetically in style, and it is very annoying. That said...I don't expect it to be fixxed, because if it were, what would burglars do?

[Trenidor]

The problem with that is that you can make more than 300 per IC year by going a few leagues from the city to collect stone or wood to sell.  There are a variety of activities that bring in piles of 'sid, unfortunately most of them are suicidally dangerous, but you can't have everything.  Being in a clan should be better than being an independant, and in some ways it is, but in other ways it isn't.  

<- That in my opinion is power gaming. People should have to go father into the desert to get things, occationally it's alright to walk out and notice the joylits sitting next to the road, but most the time I'm sure stone collectors will go deep into their "lucky" spot that consits of a large pile of rocks, then dig through the pile for what you need. The problem with "lucky" spots is that they are such a long walk. If they weren't hard to get at, then all the VNPCs would go there and they'd all be rich making the 300 average raise to 1,000.

[crymerci]

First of all, just because you can make 400 'sid a day doesn't mean you should.  You should consider whether or not you're playing realistically.  Of course it's possible that it is realistic and not powergaming, but you should just think about it.  There are some jobs where you can make that much money per day because you're not likely to live more than a few days (or you can only work a few days out of many), so in that case it's a reasonable reward vs. risk.

On another note, I've played a higher-tier commoner who worked her way through the ranks of a (wealthy) house and when she died she was making more than some lower-tier nobles and templars.  

However, most of the wealthiest commoner PCs are, I believe, independents, which makes little sense in the scope of the gameworld.  It should be possible for exceptional individuals to do this, but not as many as do currently.

[grog]

However, most of the wealthiest commoner PCs are, I believe, independents, which makes little sense in the scope of the gameworld.  It should be possible for exceptional individuals to do this, but not as many as do currently.

PCs are, without exception, exceptional individuals compared to the game world as a whole, that's because only a small percentage of people like playing characters that can be outdone and out thought by VNPCs.

[Naughty Monkey]

Bah!  Who needs 'sid?!
All yer needs is a sharp cutlass, a trusty kank an' a bottle 'r two o' Sunrunner Whiskey!

[crymerci]

However, most of the wealthiest commoner PCs are, I believe, independents, which makes little sense in the scope of the gameworld.  It should be possible for exceptional individuals to do this, but not as many as do currently.

PCs are, without exception, exceptional individuals compared to the game world as a whole, that's because only a small percentage of people like playing characters that can be outdone and out thought by VNPCs.

I agree that PCs are, and probably should be, exceptional.  That is to say, exceptional examples of a typical commoner.  Not exceptions to the rules.

Ok, here's my pet peeve.  Most commoners (virtual or PC) don't have great prospects for financial security.  To them, the possibility of a good job with one of the Houses would seem like the greatest blessing they had ever been offered.  However, I constantly see people telling nobles that they'd rather be independent, or that they're going to "shop around" for the best offer.  That's bullshit.  A noble offers you a job, your eyes should tear up and you should kiss the hem of their cloak.  So why doesn't this happen?  Because once you know the ropes (through previous characters' experiences) you know that the road to wealth is paved with shit from the latrines followed by going independent.  Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit.  It's not that it's ooc for a mercenary to make good money.  It's not.  But it is ooc to choose the uncertain life of a mercenary over a cushy job with a noble or merchant House.

[Tamarin]

For the most part, I would agree with this....except those who want to stay with a mercenary group...because they earn a -ton- of money...

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

To once more make Noble House Employment craved and lusted after, one would suggest that Noble House Employers be more selective and less open to folks who would not fit the mold of a Noble House Employee.

[Delirium]

Yeah. I must admit, seeing every Dick, Jane, and Tom - who are covered in filth and have MUCH less than desirable manners - be snapped up by noble houses, just because the Houses are desperate for PCs, has begun to make me want to start smacking people upside the head and shout "THINK!"

[Tamarin]

To once more make Noble House Employment craved and lusted after, one would suggest that Noble House Employers be more selective and less open to folks who would not fit the mold of a Noble House Employee.

Um...raise salaries.

[Delirium]

Salaries are ridiculously high as it is... especially considering all the side benefits.