Let's talk about apartments

[Windstorm]

"In Arm, apartments are where PCs go to die."

This is a quote from a friend of mine from another roleplaying environment cited to be one of the main reasons she doesn't play here anymore. I can't say I disagree. I even definitely see why it's a deterrent to playing here.

Is this what's intended? Is there a way we can improve it?

[Lizzie]

I disagree. I've been playing characters who have apartments, almost exclusively, for 20 years. I've had /one/ character killed in an apartment, and that was almost 20 years ago.  I've also played characters who have killed other characters. I believe I've killed - two, in the same 20 year period, in an apartment.

So out of all the PCs I've PKed - which is more than two handsfull - only two were apartment kills. And of all the murdered characters I've played - which is more than three dozen - only one was an apartment kill.

[mansa]

Is this what's intended?

No, the intent of apartments was to have an automated system in which "player housing" can exist. 

Previously, it would require speaking with a Templar of a city, of which they would need to email their staff member in order to get a key to the pre-defined player housing apartments.  The player would pay the templar rent each year, whatever was determined by the templar player, and if the key was lost they would need to wish up or email their staff member to get another key loaded.

The apartment system as we have it now was created to eliminate the problems of the previous system:
a) finding a templar player to rent a place
b) creating keys
c) paying rent to a player


The better question may be...
Why do players rely upon trapping other players in rooms that they cannot escape in order to kill their characters?

[BadSkeelz]

I think it's a little over-exaggerated, but then a lot of PCs disappear and I don't know where they go.

I was supposed to murder one of Lizzie's PCs in an apartment but just didn't have the energy at the time to follow through on that plot.

[Usiku]

I feel like this is more of an Armageddon meme than a reality. Yes, people do get killed in apartments sometimes, but no more than they get killed anywhere and everywhere else. More PKs happen outside of cities or in the 'rinth than happen in apartments. But if you do need to murder someone in a city then it isn't a terrible way to do it. It's realistic no? Seemed like Jeffrey Dahmer was pretty pro at the locked apartment kill. You have to be just as discerning about who you bring home in Arm as you do IRL.

But mostly.. It's not that easy and it's not that common.

[Dresan]

If you routinely spend any time in an apartment, and someone wants to kill you, the likely hood of you getting attacked there is very high.

The reason is because the attacker is very likely to find you there, its much harder for you to run away and the attacker does not get crimcoded.

It is just plain easier to murder someone in an apartment. This is why they are considered death traps by those who would otherwise enjoy using them more regularly.

I advocate making apartments either no-hide or have stelath penalties comparable to the stealth bonus in street/bush. And making apartment doors automatically open from the inside of someone tries to flees from inside the room.

[Gentleboy]

I've been killed twice in apartments. City players are already out in the open in a lot of cases. I think we should have some mad expensive apartment choices that really cannot be broken into. Clan compounds get that mostly, merchant houses do, noble houses. Desert clans.

The reason a lot of us want an apartment isn't to hoard stuff (I think), but to realistically play a character who decorates and keeps memorabilia. The fear of one good miscreant is enough to make no one want an apartment. The discrepancy of who gets security vs who does not is absurd. Some clans have a guard with a key for each room, others have none.

Players who choose to either not cram their personal items in clan sleeping quarters or who are aspiring for a new idea and do not want to be pigeon-holed have no breath of relief.

You pay for what you get. And I think safety should be offered in super expensive apartments (as well as water for those who are paying so much).

[Windstorm]

I feel like this is more of an Armageddon meme than a reality. Yes, people do get killed in apartments sometimes, but no more than they get killed anywhere and everywhere else. More PKs happen outside of cities or in the 'rinth than happen in apartments. But if you do need to murder someone in a city then it isn't a terrible way to do it. It's realistic no? Seemed like Jeffrey Dahmer was pretty pro at the locked apartment kill. You have to be just as discerning about who you bring home in Arm as you do IRL.

But mostly.. It's not that easy and it's not that common.

I think this is stilted to the fact that people who expect they might have someone(s) who would want to murder them simply don't go in apartments and know not to.

[Usiku]

I think this is stilted to the fact that people who expect they might have someone(s) who would want to murder them simply don't go in apartments and know not to.

Yes, I'm afraid if your PC does things that make other people want to kill them, then life will be difficult and they will have to watch their back.

[Windstorm]

I think this is stilted to the fact that people who expect they might have someone(s) who would want to murder them simply don't go in apartments and know not to.

Yes, I'm afraid if your PC does things that make other people want to kill them, then life will be difficult and they will have to watch their back.

Well, then established PCs with worthwhile belongings or who engage in conflict are basically dependent on clan compounds because no other form of security exists. Even in small rooms with which a PC would probably be intimately familiar, with no furnishings and any amount of lighting available, even if said PC knows someone else is present, someone can be there effectively invisible and invincible inside unless they choose not to be. They can get past a locked door also, I'm fairly sure including approaching, stepping through, and closing it silently, and if I'm not mistaken, can go undetected even if someone is actively watching, if their stealth skill is high enough. It's not hard at all to get to that point, either. Does that really sound reasonable or realistic?

In addition, when they start murdering you afterwards, no one will hear or know because apartments aside from shouting through the door are also soundproof.

(Last I'd seen the statistics, Miscreant is the most popular main class choice on ArmageddonMUD, mind.)

Players avoiding this unrealistic and pretty easily lethal situation isn't some boon or credit to immersion, Usiku, it's them avoiding coded mechanics that are pretty ridiculous. And if I'm being honest, I think you know that.

Regardless, This thread mostly started because Armageddon's pretty unique in that regard, and I'd spoken to a player that had left because of it. But if it's working the way it's supposed to, then I guess it is. I just disagree that it's necessarily good for the game, and definitely not realistic or any sort of enhancement to gameplay whatsoever.

Rest assured, there's plenty of other viable places to murder. The fact that the easiest location is where PCs would otherwise be making their homes is a little out there.

[Usiku]

Perhaps it could be made more realistic? There are plenty of ideas I could come up with to make it more codedly realistic, some I have even floated to staff before.. but it still remains an absolutely tiny fraction of PC deaths, which ranks it low on the order of priority for change.

From a staff perspective, less people want to murder your (collective your, all players) PC than you might think.

[Dresan]

The problem with apartments and sometimes this game in general is that it punishes the players that play the types of characters it should support the most.

The people that often have apartments are crafters, non-combat types and other social characters. The burly dwarven raider or the practically anti social hidden gick arent people who worry about simple ambush type of assassinations to begin with, especially not with the current code.

The game already tilted to raiders and/or mages who often live in wilderness or other remote places for a reason. Its silly to think it needs to move further in this direction. Also if apartments had nohide flags murder and burglary would still occur there, though it might require a higher dose of betrayal and corruption to achieve.

[Inks]

It is such a low portion of deaths to begin with, and seriously not an issue.

How are we supposed to kill wilderness gickers inside cities?

It is these witches that any change would protect completely the opposite of what people are saying.

I've noticed a trend of players trying to make current PCs unkillable with gdb topics.


Also...apartment murder is seriously not common. Stop trying to play or modify Arm like it is something you can win.

[Dresan]

Chicken and egg.

For the longest time the game has given the most survivability to burly combat characters. This survivability only increases if they live in the middle of nowhere. These types of PCs don't need to worry about infiltrator backstab or consequent combat that will follow, and the use of peraine, often one of the few things effective against these character has been nerfed somewhat.

The last time i played i saw a squishy PCs being killed in apartment after attempts to kill them in other places failed. It happens when there is an opportunity for it to happen. It might be less common now that raider and mages are more popular but for a PC, whos only defense againt attack is to flee, apartments are still death traps.

[Fredd]

I've killed... Off the top of my head.... Like maybe 2-3 in apartments, in my whole arm career. Each time the fact it was in an apartment lead to actual roleplay around the kill. One time, I remember cooking the body, and breaking the bones so we could toss them off the balcony like food debris to dispose of the corpse. Ahh good times.

I've been killed... 2-3 times in my own apartment i think. The last one was a handful of chars back/years back. And is the only time in recent memory that I can remember someone doing a kill emote for me.

I'm pro apartments, and apartment murder

[DesertT]

I think it's a pretty fair ask for more expensive apartments that actually offer real protection and grant people an ability to not allow someone to shadow them into their own apartment.

If you want to preposition yourself in someone's apartment, that's all well and good.  But shadowing a lone person into their apartment... meh.

And I don't care for the response basically stating that if you do something that warrants someone wanting to kill you, then it's all fair game.

How many times have we seen folks target "notable" characters simply because they're a gemmed, a militia, a member of any merchant house, a member of any clan, a citizen of a civilization or a tribe.  Basically, if you created a character and exist, that seems reason enough.

There especially seems to be a goal to off long-lived characters.  I've heard folks say, "Oh, so and so has been around long enough."  As if that's just more justification on why a person should have their character cycled.

I don't believe the ask is for all apartments to be murder proof, but certainly having a more expensive option that has guards patrolling the hallway and with doorways that you can't possibly shadow somebody into their own apartment.

Really, if we ARE committing acts that we should be hunted down for, then not leaving our apartment doors open for seven minutes while we pay zero attention to anybody that may or may not be in the hallway and want to enter seems more than a reasonable ask.

[Miradus]

I've noticed anytime someone gets offed in the game the GDB fills up with "this shouldn't happen."

People don't have any problems at all with raiders, rinthers, rogue witches, or anyone who presents even minor antagonism getting offed the moment they raise their heads.

But heaven forbid the villains of the game have a means to fight back. That simply cannot stand!

[JohnMichaelHenry]

I think it's the stealth mechanic (here we go again  that's the problem. I haven't had a lot of pc's apartment killed either. It's not the NUMBER of apartment kills that matters. It's how it happens when it does that's a bummer. No chance to run away or even escape from the (completely invisible even if I did know someone was there) attacker. And stop pretending like you PK types always have a good IC reason to kill someone. PC #43 is an insane murderer. PC #50 hates gicks, or redheads, or that guy that made my girlfriend giggle...

[Gentleboy]

I was talking to Mansa earlier (ew stinky man, jk)

And he told me that crafting was put in the game after exploration.

The crafter classes already do not have a lot of RPTS, opportunities (this can be argued), or coded safety or chances to survive 1 slash.

Crafters deserve a goal besides MMH. And sometimes that goal is a cute apartment. Why is it not ok for them to have that? They cannot wear silks (or nobles and Templars shit and cry) and they do not want to buy expensive armor. At a point, they may just buy Kuraci wagons to customize. So why not just have safer apartments that would require bribes and rp to get into?

[Inks]

If you can get off in an apartment you should be able to get offed in one.

If you want a completely safe place to craft use your Merchant House compound.

[Windstorm]

It feels very much like you just wanted to use a cute one liner and completely ignored what they actually wrote.

The post you're replying to addresses exactly what you "suggested" and you just ignored it, didn't comprehend it, or didn't read it to begin with. I mean, that's pretty on-target for someone endorsing and pushing completely selfish play, but the degree to which this mentality and the type of person who pushes it is on display above is in the levels of extreme comedy/tragedy.

[Inks]

I've already described my feelings on it, and I think you don't think ideas ahead cause and effect wise before you post them here.

Completely codedly safe apartments will cause PCs to constantly congregate in them, use them for sparring etc, afk in there etc, is the truth of the matter.

I am the one thinking of the health of the game overall here, even if it puts my own PC at risk. So how fucking dare you call me selfish.

[RheaGhe]

I've already described my feelings on it, and I think you don't think ideas ahead cause and effect wise before you post them here.

Completely codedly safe apartments will cause PCs to constantly congregate in them, use them for sparring etc, is the truth of the matter.

I am the one thinking of the health of the game overall here, even if it puts my own PC at risk. So how fucking dare you call me selfish.

They call you selfish because you are clearly offering a mindset that your own opinion should be the only one that matters.

Do you want to prevent that kind of player congregation and sparring within these spaces?

Have staff monitor it.

Have an alert set if there's a fight in these places. And have them address it with evictions and the like.

I will say this, for non-MH crafters, they lack goals. As Gentleboy said, they don't want fancy armor, they don't strive for exploration. Giving them well policed apartments, which require time and connections to get, or storefronts with backrooms without requiring them to be a player org could be a good move. Give them goals that aren't implicitly become a leadership PC. Because some people and some characters aren't about that life.

[MarshallDFX]

Let's keep it civil please.

As a contribution to this thread, I thought Armaddict's Post a few months ago had interesting ideas on security and burglary.

An upgrade path on both the burglary skills and apartment security is intriguing.

[Jarvis]

The only problem here seems to be hiding in a plain room and not being able to target someone you KNOW is there.



It'd be cool if you could codedly hide inside chests/wardrobes/under beds, but unable to proc "hide" in small open rooms.

Definitely think the stealth code is up for revision, but I'm not going to pretend I have any good contributions or even an idea of what I'd do with it.

Its a tricky one.