Let's talk about apartments

[Windstorm]

"In Arm, apartments are where PCs go to die."

This is a quote from a friend of mine from another roleplaying environment cited to be one of the main reasons she doesn't play here anymore. I can't say I disagree. I even definitely see why it's a deterrent to playing here.

Is this what's intended? Is there a way we can improve it?

[Lizzie]

I disagree. I've been playing characters who have apartments, almost exclusively, for 20 years. I've had /one/ character killed in an apartment, and that was almost 20 years ago.  I've also played characters who have killed other characters. I believe I've killed - two, in the same 20 year period, in an apartment.

So out of all the PCs I've PKed - which is more than two handsfull - only two were apartment kills. And of all the murdered characters I've played - which is more than three dozen - only one was an apartment kill.

[mansa]

Is this what's intended?

No, the intent of apartments was to have an automated system in which "player housing" can exist. 

Previously, it would require speaking with a Templar of a city, of which they would need to email their staff member in order to get a key to the pre-defined player housing apartments.  The player would pay the templar rent each year, whatever was determined by the templar player, and if the key was lost they would need to wish up or email their staff member to get another key loaded.

The apartment system as we have it now was created to eliminate the problems of the previous system:
a) finding a templar player to rent a place
b) creating keys
c) paying rent to a player


The better question may be...
Why do players rely upon trapping other players in rooms that they cannot escape in order to kill their characters?

[BadSkeelz]

I think it's a little over-exaggerated, but then a lot of PCs disappear and I don't know where they go.

I was supposed to murder one of Lizzie's PCs in an apartment but just didn't have the energy at the time to follow through on that plot.

[Usiku]

I feel like this is more of an Armageddon meme than a reality. Yes, people do get killed in apartments sometimes, but no more than they get killed anywhere and everywhere else. More PKs happen outside of cities or in the 'rinth than happen in apartments. But if you do need to murder someone in a city then it isn't a terrible way to do it. It's realistic no? Seemed like Jeffrey Dahmer was pretty pro at the locked apartment kill. You have to be just as discerning about who you bring home in Arm as you do IRL.

But mostly.. It's not that easy and it's not that common.

[Dresan]

If you routinely spend any time in an apartment, and someone wants to kill you, the likely hood of you getting attacked there is very high.

The reason is because the attacker is very likely to find you there, its much harder for you to run away and the attacker does not get crimcoded.

It is just plain easier to murder someone in an apartment. This is why they are considered death traps by those who would otherwise enjoy using them more regularly.

I advocate making apartments either no-hide or have stelath penalties comparable to the stealth bonus in street/bush. And making apartment doors automatically open from the inside of someone tries to flees from inside the room.

[Gentleboy]

I've been killed twice in apartments. City players are already out in the open in a lot of cases. I think we should have some mad expensive apartment choices that really cannot be broken into. Clan compounds get that mostly, merchant houses do, noble houses. Desert clans.

The reason a lot of us want an apartment isn't to hoard stuff (I think), but to realistically play a character who decorates and keeps memorabilia. The fear of one good miscreant is enough to make no one want an apartment. The discrepancy of who gets security vs who does not is absurd. Some clans have a guard with a key for each room, others have none.

Players who choose to either not cram their personal items in clan sleeping quarters or who are aspiring for a new idea and do not want to be pigeon-holed have no breath of relief.

You pay for what you get. And I think safety should be offered in super expensive apartments (as well as water for those who are paying so much).

[Windstorm]

I feel like this is more of an Armageddon meme than a reality. Yes, people do get killed in apartments sometimes, but no more than they get killed anywhere and everywhere else. More PKs happen outside of cities or in the 'rinth than happen in apartments. But if you do need to murder someone in a city then it isn't a terrible way to do it. It's realistic no? Seemed like Jeffrey Dahmer was pretty pro at the locked apartment kill. You have to be just as discerning about who you bring home in Arm as you do IRL.

But mostly.. It's not that easy and it's not that common.

I think this is stilted to the fact that people who expect they might have someone(s) who would want to murder them simply don't go in apartments and know not to.

[Usiku]

I think this is stilted to the fact that people who expect they might have someone(s) who would want to murder them simply don't go in apartments and know not to.

Yes, I'm afraid if your PC does things that make other people want to kill them, then life will be difficult and they will have to watch their back.

[Windstorm]

I think this is stilted to the fact that people who expect they might have someone(s) who would want to murder them simply don't go in apartments and know not to.

Yes, I'm afraid if your PC does things that make other people want to kill them, then life will be difficult and they will have to watch their back.

Well, then established PCs with worthwhile belongings or who engage in conflict are basically dependent on clan compounds because no other form of security exists. Even in small rooms with which a PC would probably be intimately familiar, with no furnishings and any amount of lighting available, even if said PC knows someone else is present, someone can be there effectively invisible and invincible inside unless they choose not to be. They can get past a locked door also, I'm fairly sure including approaching, stepping through, and closing it silently, and if I'm not mistaken, can go undetected even if someone is actively watching, if their stealth skill is high enough. It's not hard at all to get to that point, either. Does that really sound reasonable or realistic?

In addition, when they start murdering you afterwards, no one will hear or know because apartments aside from shouting through the door are also soundproof.

(Last I'd seen the statistics, Miscreant is the most popular main class choice on ArmageddonMUD, mind.)

Players avoiding this unrealistic and pretty easily lethal situation isn't some boon or credit to immersion, Usiku, it's them avoiding coded mechanics that are pretty ridiculous. And if I'm being honest, I think you know that.

Regardless, This thread mostly started because Armageddon's pretty unique in that regard, and I'd spoken to a player that had left because of it. But if it's working the way it's supposed to, then I guess it is. I just disagree that it's necessarily good for the game, and definitely not realistic or any sort of enhancement to gameplay whatsoever.

Rest assured, there's plenty of other viable places to murder. The fact that the easiest location is where PCs would otherwise be making their homes is a little out there.

[Usiku]

Perhaps it could be made more realistic? There are plenty of ideas I could come up with to make it more codedly realistic, some I have even floated to staff before.. but it still remains an absolutely tiny fraction of PC deaths, which ranks it low on the order of priority for change.

From a staff perspective, less people want to murder your (collective your, all players) PC than you might think.

[Dresan]

The problem with apartments and sometimes this game in general is that it punishes the players that play the types of characters it should support the most.

The people that often have apartments are crafters, non-combat types and other social characters. The burly dwarven raider or the practically anti social hidden gick arent people who worry about simple ambush type of assassinations to begin with, especially not with the current code.

The game already tilted to raiders and/or mages who often live in wilderness or other remote places for a reason. Its silly to think it needs to move further in this direction. Also if apartments had nohide flags murder and burglary would still occur there, though it might require a higher dose of betrayal and corruption to achieve.

[Inks]

It is such a low portion of deaths to begin with, and seriously not an issue.

How are we supposed to kill wilderness gickers inside cities?

It is these witches that any change would protect completely the opposite of what people are saying.

I've noticed a trend of players trying to make current PCs unkillable with gdb topics.


Also...apartment murder is seriously not common. Stop trying to play or modify Arm like it is something you can win.

[Dresan]

Chicken and egg.

For the longest time the game has given the most survivability to burly combat characters. This survivability only increases if they live in the middle of nowhere. These types of PCs don't need to worry about infiltrator backstab or consequent combat that will follow, and the use of peraine, often one of the few things effective against these character has been nerfed somewhat.

The last time i played i saw a squishy PCs being killed in apartment after attempts to kill them in other places failed. It happens when there is an opportunity for it to happen. It might be less common now that raider and mages are more popular but for a PC, whos only defense againt attack is to flee, apartments are still death traps.

[Fredd]

I've killed... Off the top of my head.... Like maybe 2-3 in apartments, in my whole arm career. Each time the fact it was in an apartment lead to actual roleplay around the kill. One time, I remember cooking the body, and breaking the bones so we could toss them off the balcony like food debris to dispose of the corpse. Ahh good times.

I've been killed... 2-3 times in my own apartment i think. The last one was a handful of chars back/years back. And is the only time in recent memory that I can remember someone doing a kill emote for me.

I'm pro apartments, and apartment murder

[DesertT]

I think it's a pretty fair ask for more expensive apartments that actually offer real protection and grant people an ability to not allow someone to shadow them into their own apartment.

If you want to preposition yourself in someone's apartment, that's all well and good.  But shadowing a lone person into their apartment... meh.

And I don't care for the response basically stating that if you do something that warrants someone wanting to kill you, then it's all fair game.

How many times have we seen folks target "notable" characters simply because they're a gemmed, a militia, a member of any merchant house, a member of any clan, a citizen of a civilization or a tribe.  Basically, if you created a character and exist, that seems reason enough.

There especially seems to be a goal to off long-lived characters.  I've heard folks say, "Oh, so and so has been around long enough."  As if that's just more justification on why a person should have their character cycled.

I don't believe the ask is for all apartments to be murder proof, but certainly having a more expensive option that has guards patrolling the hallway and with doorways that you can't possibly shadow somebody into their own apartment.

Really, if we ARE committing acts that we should be hunted down for, then not leaving our apartment doors open for seven minutes while we pay zero attention to anybody that may or may not be in the hallway and want to enter seems more than a reasonable ask.

[Miradus]

I've noticed anytime someone gets offed in the game the GDB fills up with "this shouldn't happen."

People don't have any problems at all with raiders, rinthers, rogue witches, or anyone who presents even minor antagonism getting offed the moment they raise their heads.

But heaven forbid the villains of the game have a means to fight back. That simply cannot stand!

[JohnMichaelHenry]

I think it's the stealth mechanic (here we go again  that's the problem. I haven't had a lot of pc's apartment killed either. It's not the NUMBER of apartment kills that matters. It's how it happens when it does that's a bummer. No chance to run away or even escape from the (completely invisible even if I did know someone was there) attacker. And stop pretending like you PK types always have a good IC reason to kill someone. PC #43 is an insane murderer. PC #50 hates gicks, or redheads, or that guy that made my girlfriend giggle...

[Gentleboy]

I was talking to Mansa earlier (ew stinky man, jk)

And he told me that crafting was put in the game after exploration.

The crafter classes already do not have a lot of RPTS, opportunities (this can be argued), or coded safety or chances to survive 1 slash.

Crafters deserve a goal besides MMH. And sometimes that goal is a cute apartment. Why is it not ok for them to have that? They cannot wear silks (or nobles and Templars shit and cry) and they do not want to buy expensive armor. At a point, they may just buy Kuraci wagons to customize. So why not just have safer apartments that would require bribes and rp to get into?

[Inks]

If you can get off in an apartment you should be able to get offed in one.

If you want a completely safe place to craft use your Merchant House compound.

[Windstorm]

It feels very much like you just wanted to use a cute one liner and completely ignored what they actually wrote.

The post you're replying to addresses exactly what you "suggested" and you just ignored it, didn't comprehend it, or didn't read it to begin with. I mean, that's pretty on-target for someone endorsing and pushing completely selfish play, but the degree to which this mentality and the type of person who pushes it is on display above is in the levels of extreme comedy/tragedy.

[Inks]

I've already described my feelings on it, and I think you don't think ideas ahead cause and effect wise before you post them here.

Completely codedly safe apartments will cause PCs to constantly congregate in them, use them for sparring etc, afk in there etc, is the truth of the matter.

I am the one thinking of the health of the game overall here, even if it puts my own PC at risk. So how fucking dare you call me selfish.

[RheaGhe]

I've already described my feelings on it, and I think you don't think ideas ahead cause and effect wise before you post them here.

Completely codedly safe apartments will cause PCs to constantly congregate in them, use them for sparring etc, is the truth of the matter.

I am the one thinking of the health of the game overall here, even if it puts my own PC at risk. So how fucking dare you call me selfish.

They call you selfish because you are clearly offering a mindset that your own opinion should be the only one that matters.

Do you want to prevent that kind of player congregation and sparring within these spaces?

Have staff monitor it.

Have an alert set if there's a fight in these places. And have them address it with evictions and the like.

I will say this, for non-MH crafters, they lack goals. As Gentleboy said, they don't want fancy armor, they don't strive for exploration. Giving them well policed apartments, which require time and connections to get, or storefronts with backrooms without requiring them to be a player org could be a good move. Give them goals that aren't implicitly become a leadership PC. Because some people and some characters aren't about that life.

[MarshallDFX]

Let's keep it civil please.

As a contribution to this thread, I thought Armaddict's Post a few months ago had interesting ideas on security and burglary.

An upgrade path on both the burglary skills and apartment security is intriguing.

[Jarvis]

The only problem here seems to be hiding in a plain room and not being able to target someone you KNOW is there.



It'd be cool if you could codedly hide inside chests/wardrobes/under beds, but unable to proc "hide" in small open rooms.

Definitely think the stealth code is up for revision, but I'm not going to pretend I have any good contributions or even an idea of what I'd do with it.

Its a tricky one.

[Inks]

+1 to that. The all or nothing nature of stealth annoys me too, there should at least be a penalty inside apartments that make you easier to scan down, with nohide in tiny ones.


Unrelated just an amusing thing to find as a OG burglar, I've seen someone put a whole skimmer in an apartment before too and use it as storage.

[LetaSpringle]

Why wreck it for criminal types? Conflict makes the game fun. Safe places for crafters = criminals have nothing to do. Should just get rid of the pick and steal skills, eh? This seems bogus. If someone is acting unreasonbly about their criminal mischief isn't the request tool the best way to address it? No criminals means no need for law enforcers. I like the conflict, characters not players complaining IC that their place was robbed, soldiers deciding if they should investigate or not and if so then they investigate. It all drives roleplay, plotlines. Maybe you find out that the criminal stole someone's spice that they weren't supposed to have in the city and now you can arrest them both.  Also gives criminal bosses something to teach their recruits - how to get away with the crimes instead of drawing attention to them.

I think the lack of safety is fun from victim and enforcer point of view. If it's happening too much or in an unbelievable way then report it to the staff, let them sort it out? That's my 2 gold coins.

[Jarvis]

Why wreck it for criminal types? Conflict makes the game fun. Safe places for crafters = criminals have nothing to do. Should just get rid of the pick and steal skills, eh? This seems bogus. If someone is acting unreasonbly about their criminal mischief isn't the request tool the best way to address it? No criminals means no need for law enforcers. I like the conflict, characters not players complaining IC that their place was robbed, soldiers deciding if they should investigate or not and if so then they investigate. It all drives roleplay, plotlines. Maybe you find out that the criminal stole someone's spice that they weren't supposed to have in the city and now you can arrest them both.  Also gives criminal bosses something to teach their recruits - how to get away with the crimes instead of drawing attention to them.

I think the lack of safety is fun from victim and enforcer point of view. If it's happening too much or in an unbelievable way then report it to the staff, let them sort it out? That's my 2 gold coins.

Nor 8 nor 80. Stealth right now is just absolute to a nonsensical point. It'd be nice if people without scan also had their passive wisdom contested or something, with heavy penalties in rooms that are just a barren square.

I've had an elf break into a noble-guarded room where it was just a barren straight hallway with a guard who's sole job would be to stare forwards and not let people into that door. Admittedly this was a brainlet move of mine without any notion of the virtual world.

Could you correct this grade level stuff with staff monitoring? Ya. Would staff do literally nothing else if that were the case? Ya.

I do think the stealth has to be rebalanced, because right now its very meh from both a victim and criminal point of view. It functions more like a cloak of invisibility spell that works anywhere with high enough skill+agi

[LetaSpringle]

Why wreck it for criminal types? Conflict makes the game fun. Safe places for crafters = criminals have nothing to do. Should just get rid of the pick and steal skills, eh? This seems bogus. If someone is acting unreasonbly about their criminal mischief isn't the request tool the best way to address it? No criminals means no need for law enforcers. I like the conflict, characters not players complaining IC that their place was robbed, soldiers deciding if they should investigate or not and if so then they investigate. It all drives roleplay, plotlines. Maybe you find out that the criminal stole someone's spice that they weren't supposed to have in the city and now you can arrest them both.  Also gives criminal bosses something to teach their recruits - how to get away with the crimes instead of drawing attention to them.

I think the lack of safety is fun from victim and enforcer point of view. If it's happening too much or in an unbelievable way then report it to the staff, let them sort it out? That's my 2 gold coins.

Nor 8 nor 80. Stealth right now is just absolute to a nonsensical point. It'd be nice if people without scan also had their passive wisdom contested or something, with heavy penalties in rooms that are just a barren square.

I've had an elf break into a noble-guarded room where it was just a barren straight hallway with a guard who's sole job would be to stare forwards and not let people into that door. Admittedly this was a brainlet move of mine without any notion of the virtual world.

Could you correct this grade level stuff with staff monitoring? Ya. Would staff do literally nothing else if that were the case? Ya.

I do think the stealth has to be rebalanced, because right now its very meh from both a victim and criminal point of view. It functions more like a cloak of invisibility spell that works anywhere with high enough skill+agi

I agree. But it wasn't what I was responding to. Someone wanted unclanned crafters to have crime-proof places to store things. I don't like that idea. I said why.  That's really my only input here.

[DesertT]

It seems that there's an assumption being levied by some that others of us want "a completely safe apartment".

That's not the case.  We want apartments that are priced higher and provide more safety and security.  Guarded hallways.  Doors you can't Shadow someone through.  Things like that.

If you break into someone's apartment and hide under their cot or in the closet, I have no issues.  The issue I have is when people simply Shadow someone down a lone hallway and into their apartment.

So if there's a way to make apartment doorways shadow-proof, I think that's a decent compromise.  Having guards in hallways giving a sneak/hide penalty would also be a neat feature, again, adding to the monthly cost of such apartments.

[MatisseOrOtherwise]

It seems that there's an assumption being levied by some that others of us want "a completely safe apartment".

That's not the case.  We want apartments that are priced higher and provide more safety and security.  Guarded hallways.  Doors you can't Shadow someone through.  Things like that.

If you break into someone's apartment and hide under their cot or in the closet, I have no issues.  The issue I have is when people simply Shadow someone down a lone hallway and into their apartment.

So if there's a way to make apartment doorways shadow-proof, I think that's a decent compromise.  Having guards in hallways giving a sneak/hide penalty would also be a neat feature, again, adding to the monthly cost of such apartments.

Maybe in the most 'premium' apartments, for 50% more cost. Say a city has 3 choices of apartment complexes for commonfolk, one at an average of 250, one at 400, and one at 800. Maybe the 800 gets bumped to 1200 and there's a couple guards circling now.

[papertiger]

I'd like more places listed with some ambient rentals so its not so heckin obvious. Seems very difficult not to be small worldy with like 4 places and only one occupied.

[MatisseOrOtherwise]

I'd like more places listed with some ambient rentals so its not so heckin obvious. Seems very difficult not to be small worldy with like 4 places and only one occupied.

thief gameplay
walk up to apartment, hit 'list'
all unoccupied, move on, don't break into any today
rinse and repeat

it does feel a bit OOC, because the tellers at the front would 100% become sus of someone coming up and asking how many apartments are available today over and over :V

[whengravityfails]

Right, I realized my opinion was kind of one sided and changed my mind.

[Jarvis]

I agree. But it wasn't what I was responding to. Someone wanted unclanned crafters to have crime-proof places to store things. I don't like that idea. I said why.  That's really my only input here.

Ah fair enough. My bad

[Gentleboy]

1. We should be able to buy out an apartment. And once bought, not rented, have the ability to customize it. You wouldn't be able to build rooms since the building is not what you bought, but, maybe you can add a wall or a closet. Things like that. Put in a counter, a cooking source etc. Make it yours.

2. We should not be fighting in apartments. Give us a fighting pit someplace so people can meet there. It's not the Byn, but, here and there, people can see where they're at.

3. Put a Housing system (it will suck bad) in the Rinth. I was a lonefoot elf carrying a lot of coin and stolen items on me but had no place to hide it. To make for better stealth RP, they need a place to stash their stash. Not everything needs to be resold. I think a lot of people would enjoy the RP opportunity of trying to haggle for their things back.

[RheaGhe]

1. We should be able to buy out an apartment. And once bought, not rented, have the ability to customize it. You wouldn't be able to build rooms since the building is not what you bought, but, maybe you can add a wall or a closet. Things like that. Put in a counter, a cooking source etc. Make it yours.

2. We should not be fighting in apartments. Give us a fighting pit someplace so people can meet there. It's not the Byn, but, here and there, people can see where they're at.

3. Put a Housing system (it will suck bad) in the Rinth. I was a lonefoot elf carrying a lot of coin and stolen items on me but had no place to hide it. To make for better stealth RP, they need a place to stash their stash. Not everything needs to be resold. I think a lot of people would enjoy the RP opportunity of trying to haggle for their things back.

Adding onto point 1 and showing how all sides of the equation can benefit from this: Smugglers Cabinets and drawers.

Agreed on point 2.

Point 3 I agree with, but have it maintained by a faction, and requiring their approval in some way. Whoever the current power is west and east side should control these places, and have the ability to associate people for their rental.

[digitaleak]

Having limited "upscale" apartment options that offer more security is a fun idea to me. They'd be highly competitive to obtain and maintain IC and if a thief found a way to break in, would likely be cashing in on a huge pay day.

I also support someone wanting a place to play house and being willing to pay the higher price tag for it. That's half the fun for some city-based characters. It doesn't mean a criminal pc couldn't find a way to still kill their mark in the city or in the apartment. It would require a bit more planning maybe, but there are apartments in real life that are harder to break into and some that are easier. Why not reflect this in arm?

[wizturbo]

I am a huge proponent of letting people buy more secure apartments at a high price.  It would be a great coin sink in the game, encouraging players to chase coin more to afford it.  At the same time it would allow players to have a place they can deck out with all the fun craftable items in the game without the enormous risk of having it stolen in days.  And of course it'll give someone a place to actually have some privacy if they want it.

No one loses here.

[LetaSpringle]

I am a huge proponent of letting people buy more secure apartments at a high price.  It would be a great coin sink in the game, encouraging players to chase coin more to afford it.  At the same time it would allow players to have a place they can deck out with all the fun craftable items in the game without the enormous risk of having it stolen in days.  And of course it'll give someone a place to actually have some privacy if they want it.

No one loses here.

Who loses:
Burglar-types, who have nothing valuable to steal.
Soldiers, who have no one to arrest and less need to interact with crafters.
Mob-type underbosses, who have no need to have minions.
Nobles, who have no one to bribe.

Everyone loses except the crafters, who can just spam-sell everything to the shops and get rich.  The safer you make it for one group, the less need for the other group to exist.

[digitaleak]

I am a huge proponent of letting people buy more secure apartments at a high price.  It would be a great coin sink in the game, encouraging players to chase coin more to afford it.  At the same time it would allow players to have a place they can deck out with all the fun craftable items in the game without the enormous risk of having it stolen in days.  And of course it'll give someone a place to actually have some privacy if they want it.

No one loses here.

Who loses:
Burglar-types, who have nothing valuable to steal.
Soldiers, who have no one to arrest and less need to interact with crafters.
Mob-type underbosses, who have no need to have minions.
Nobles, who have no one to bribe.

Everyone loses except the crafters, who can just spam-sell everything to the shops and get rich.  The safer you make it for one group, the less need for the other group to exist.

Maybe I'm just ignorant, but how do these types lose?

It seems like burglar types could still harass the cheapo apartments (since the fancy ones would be limited)

Soldiers could still harass crafters if that's their only way of RPing in cities since not every crafter is going to rent an apartment (even the cheap ones) though I would hope soldiers have more important tasks to RP like war, crime, and templar stuff...

Underbosses would still need minions because hopefully their story arcs run deep in politics and other secret events.

Nobles would absolutely have the ability to bribe since these high class apartments would likely be controlled/influenced by them.

[LetaSpringle]

I am a huge proponent of letting people buy more secure apartments at a high price.  It would be a great coin sink in the game, encouraging players to chase coin more to afford it.  At the same time it would allow players to have a place they can deck out with all the fun craftable items in the game without the enormous risk of having it stolen in days.  And of course it'll give someone a place to actually have some privacy if they want it.

No one loses here.

Who loses:
Burglar-types, who have nothing valuable to steal.
Soldiers, who have no one to arrest and less need to interact with crafters.
Mob-type underbosses, who have no need to have minions.
Nobles, who have no one to bribe.

Everyone loses except the crafters, who can just spam-sell everything to the shops and get rich.  The safer you make it for one group, the less need for the other group to exist.

Maybe I'm just ignorant, but how do these types lose?

It seems like burglar types could still harass the cheapo apartments (since the fancy ones would be limited)

Soldiers could still harass crafters if that's their only way of RPing in cities since not every crafter is going to rent an apartment (even the cheap ones) though I would hope soldiers have more important tasks to RP like war, crime, and templar stuff...

Underbosses would still need minions because hopefully their story arcs run deep in politics and other secret events.

Nobles would absolutely have the ability to bribe since these high class apartments would likely be controlled/influenced by them.

Burglars can't make a living on scraps of cloth, small pieces of bone, burnt-out torches. If the people who can make the most money are secure then burglars can't rob them.  The mob bosses don't need to hire them, and that's one less income-earning opportunity for them. Then soldiers won't be arresting the burglars or really care about them since they're not robbing anyone of anything important anyway. All the good stuff is secure. High class apartments wouldn't be controlled or influenced by mob bosses if the apartments are secure. They can't get into them anyway so why should they care?

It's sort of a butterfly effect situation.

[digitaleak]

Well, I guess my confusion comes from earlier posts in the thread that suggested these apartments wouldn't be impenetrable. They just wouldn't be as codedly easy to follow someone into.

I also find it hard to believe that a person who's entire character is to rough people up and steal from them would only be doing that via apartments. There really seem like other ways to achieve these goals. Am I wrong in that hope/assumption?

[Jimpka_Moss]

I think this is stilted to the fact that people who expect they might have someone(s) who would want to murder them simply don't go in apartments and know not to.

Yes, I'm afraid if your PC does things that make other people want to kill them, then life will be difficult and they will have to watch their back.

Well, then established PCs with worthwhile belongings or who engage in conflict are basically dependent on clan compounds because no other form of security exists. Even in small rooms with which a PC would probably be intimately familiar, with no furnishings and any amount of lighting available, even if said PC knows someone else is present, someone can be there effectively invisible and invincible inside unless they choose not to be. They can get past a locked door also, I'm fairly sure including approaching, stepping through, and closing it silently, and if I'm not mistaken, can go undetected even if someone is actively watching, if their stealth skill is high enough. It's not hard at all to get to that point, either. Does that really sound reasonable or realistic?

In addition, when they start murdering you afterwards, no one will hear or know because apartments aside from shouting through the door are also soundproof.

(Last I'd seen the statistics, Miscreant is the most popular main class choice on ArmageddonMUD, mind.)

Players avoiding this unrealistic and pretty easily lethal situation isn't some boon or credit to immersion, Usiku, it's them avoiding coded mechanics that are pretty ridiculous. And if I'm being honest, I think you know that.

Regardless, This thread mostly started because Armageddon's pretty unique in that regard, and I'd spoken to a player that had left because of it. But if it's working the way it's supposed to, then I guess it is. I just disagree that it's necessarily good for the game, and definitely not realistic or any sort of enhancement to gameplay whatsoever.

Rest assured, there's plenty of other viable places to murder. The fact that the easiest location is where PCs would otherwise be making their homes is a little out there.

I'd like to crosspost here, re: the Karma thread.

Windstorm, you have the Right here to expect a decent amount of roleplay with your death. That includes apartment kills that make sense dammit. I don't think the code needs to change, so much as this right here needs to be highlighted as a part of our community's RP standards, as a bottom line.


If in a plain, empty room, with bright light and no furniture, someone is sneaking and INVISIBLE because of mere code alone, that's terrible. If you die from it, there should have been a staff wish or notification, and someone, by which I mean the victim, needs to file a complaint. I say complaint because it's the only request option that opens an investigation, and at that point, for whatever 'karma' is supposed to represent, staff and player trust are removed from that player if they didn't have roleplay that backed that up, like a sheet that was the same color as the wall, or... like, I'm stretching hard to think of a reason, but /so would they/. And their emotes and RP had better back it up, otherwise it's invalid.



The above is something that's a given, implicit, unstated. Unfortunately, it needs to be stated again. You have a right to expect a certain standard of roleplay with your char's death, and if it wasn't met, then file a complaint so we all can eventually see if it was perception or reality.

[Gentleboy]

There are not a lot of people who play full guilded crafters.

A lot of people play middle/utility classes. Stalker and miscreant or their more combat focused pals. Rinth ppl be wild. They play every class.

Anyway, let the crafters have something. There are no RPTS for them.

Give them the chance to get really nice workshop/apartments.

[dumbstruck]

There are not a lot of people who play full guilded crafters.

A lot of people play middle/utility classes. Stalker and miscreant or their more combat focused pals. Rinth ppl be wild. They play every class.

Anyway, let the crafters have something. There are no RPTS for them.

Give them the chance to get really nice workshop/apartments.

Bolded for emphasis, really. Even if it's just really specific apartments and there's ridiculous costs and hoops, I like the idea of it, for the emphasized reason.

There are magick rpts, there are combat rpts. There are never rpts for crafters. At best you get auctions and those are almost always targeted toward freakin' sponsored roles, not actual crafters.

[LetaSpringle]

Well, I guess my confusion comes from earlier posts in the thread that suggested these apartments wouldn't be impenetrable. They just wouldn't be as codedly easy to follow someone into.

I also find it hard to believe that a person who's entire character is to rough people up and steal from them would only be doing that via apartments. There really seem like other ways to achieve these goals. Am I wrong in that hope/assumption?

I specified burglars. Burglars don't rough people up and steal from them. They rob apartments.

[digitaleak]

So if the more expensive apartments weren't impenetrable, I am still struggling to understand how burglar types would be affected.

[LetaSpringle]

So if the more expensive apartments weren't impenetrable, I am still struggling to understand how burglar types would be affected.

Again. Someone wanted unclanned crafter apartments that could be made crime-proof with hall guards and such. I disagreed and explained why.

[BadSkeelz]

Windstorm, you have the Right here to expect a decent amount of roleplay with your death. That includes apartment kills that make sense dammit. I don't think the code needs to change, so much as this right here needs to be highlighted as a part of our community's RP standards, as a bottom line.

This is, in practical terms, patently false. No one was the Right to anything except when it comes to consent and Rape plotlines (and god knows some people do their best to skirt those). You have no Right to roleplay. To believe otherwise is to invite bitterness and disappointment. Have no expectation of it. If you want good roleplay, force it on others by putting yourself in a position of power and privilege and demand it from them on pain of death.

[Classclown]

So if the more expensive apartments weren't impenetrable, I am still struggling to understand how burglar types would be affected.

Again. Someone wanted unclanned crafter apartments that could be made crime-proof with hall guards and such. I disagreed and explained why.

When people stop burglarizing apartments at 3am ST because everyone is usually logged off, except for off-peak, then I'll worry about burglars' feelings. High end houses are supposed to be hard to burgle. That's why there are movies like Ocean's 11. It should require skill to burgle expensive apartments.

[Jimpka_Moss]

Windstorm, you have the Right here to expect a decent amount of roleplay with your death. That includes apartment kills that make sense dammit. I don't think the code needs to change, so much as this right here needs to be highlighted as a part of our community's RP standards, as a bottom line.

This is, in practical terms, patently false. No one was the Right to anything except when it comes to consent and Rape plotlines (and god knows some people do their best to skirt those). You have no Right to roleplay. To believe otherwise is to invite bitterness and disappointment. Have no expectation of it. If you want good roleplay, force it on others by putting yourself in a position of power and privilege and demand it from them on pain of .....

removal of karma. Fixed this for us. Also, I hope you have a good internal attitude beyond what I see displayed about what players deserve here. I make up a percentage of the playerbase, and because of that, I can /imbue/ us with that much percentage of that right. And I do, with my constant adherence to my own principles. You could add that. (edited for snark)

[Tuannon]

Going to step in to say that the subject is kind of contentious, please keep the conversation as close to neutral and civil as possible. Thanks.

[BadSkeelz]

Also, I hope you have a good internal attitude beyond what I see displayed about what players deserve here.

I just prioritize strength and get crimcode on my side if possible.

[Tuannon]

Don't co-opt a thread about apartments to air your dirty laundry about PK and 'poor' RP.

[Lotion]

Why was my on topic post removed?

[Tuannon]

Because you are not sticking to the topic, if you want to critique people's PK methods, start a new thread.

[Riev]

So if the more expensive apartments weren't impenetrable, I am still struggling to understand how burglar types would be affected.

Again. Someone wanted unclanned crafter apartments that could be made crime-proof with hall guards and such. I disagreed and explained why.

When people stop burglarizing apartments at 3am ST because everyone is usually logged off, except for off-peak, then I'll worry about burglars' feelings. High end houses are supposed to be hard to burgle. That's why there are movies like Ocean's 11. It should require skill to burgle expensive apartments.

IMO there should be a way for 'high end' apartments to be considered that beyond the simplistic "is your door picking skill above <x>, if so, you win" methodology. At one point, there were 'guards' added but they are not overly useful, as by the time you have the picking skill to break in, you have the ability to 'get past the guards' too.

ITT: Anyone not openly wearing the appropriate tenement 'door key' around their neck or wrists will be followed by a patrolling guard. Not arrested. Not attacked. Followed. Put them on patrol, so you can still get in if you're watching and being careful, but if they catch you? They watch and follow. Anyone found to be breaking in and thieving with a guard watching is OBVIOUSLY not obeying the ACTUAL world (nevermind the virtual)

[Trevalyan]

ITT: Anyone not openly wearing the appropriate tenement 'door key' around their neck or wrists will be followed by a patrolling guard. Not arrested. Not attacked. Followed. Put them on patrol, so you can still get in if you're watching and being careful, but if they catch you? They watch and follow. Anyone found to be breaking in and thieving with a guard watching is OBVIOUSLY not obeying the ACTUAL world (nevermind the virtual)

This would have the coded issue of making apartment ERP much more awkward, so needless to say I'm all for it.

[Riev]

A pimply-faced Allanaki soldier runs in from the west!
A pimply-faced Allanaki soldier begins watching you.
A pimply-faced Allanaki soldier begins following you.

I mean in all honesty, it wouldn't work unless they could notice you weren't wearing your key from like 3 rooms away, but still.

Maybe Nenyuk is sick of having complaints and hires on a 3-4 more security Bynners, on contract, for security at each of their properties. One per floor, every couple rooms just ... keeping an eye on people looking to see if they're wearing their keys.

[Windstorm]

Don't co-opt a thread about apartments to air your dirty laundry about PK and 'poor' RP.

Being the initial poster of this forum topic, I will voice that PK and poor roleplay are a central theme in players being killed in apartments, and we will continue discussing this. It is on-topic. Attempting to tell us what we can't talk about is off-topic. You have spammed this thread with three posts to this effect. If anyone is off-topic it is you. Please stay on-topic.

PCs being killed in apartments and them being a choice place in which to often-unrealistically kill PCs - ignoring the environment of an empty, small room the occupant is familiar with, vNPCs, apartment owners, neighbors and the setting - what are more viable ways to account for the world in this? Are there ways to improve the code?

Maybe fighting should create more noise or an automated guard response. Maybe repeatedly checking apartment availability in a certain outlet should be notated, especially when it's by obvious elves or Labyrinthines.

[BadSkeelz]

PCs being killed in apartments and them being a choice place in which to often-unrealistically kill PCs - ignoring the environment of an empty, small room the occupant is familiar with, vNPCs, apartment owners, neighbors and the setting - what are more viable ways to account for the world in this? Are there ways to improve the code?

Remove crimcode, make it easier to murder people in the streets. Especially those pesky sponsored roles who rely on NPCs to protect themselves from players, instead of other players.

[Jimpka_Moss]

PCs being killed in apartments and them being a choice place in which to often-unrealistically kill PCs - ignoring the environment of an empty, small room the occupant is familiar with, vNPCs, apartment owners, neighbors and the setting - what are more viable ways to account for the world in this? Are there ways to improve the code?

Remove crimcode, make it easier to murder people in the streets. Especially those pesky sponsored roles who rely on NPCs to protect themselves from players, instead of other players.

Yup. No matter who I play, or what I play, I will almost always support this position. I do not see a real, absolutely necessary downside.

[Windstorm]

I think people maybe underestimate how easy it is to kill people in the streets or even overestimate how strong NPCs are. I've seen plenty of all this. I've done some of it myself. It's not hard. But, one should expect the world to respond also. Sometimes, people perform these tactics and "succeed" assuming the world never will. It shouldn't be hard to kill somebody on the street and in my experience, it's not.

That said, killing a noble or a templar should not be an entirely simple task. I don't think it's that hard even now. It may take coordination or more involvement than spamming backstab on Labyrinth NPCs or whatever before you decide to suddenly do it on a sponsored role that's driving a lot of roleplay in their environment, but that's how it should be. These things do come with risk, and again, they should. You just shouldn't be able to do it alone and it's true that you generally can't.

The problem with apartments and the ease of apartment killing is that it basically doesn't come with any risk at all. If you've spent a little while (not very long) developing the skills you can pick a lock, enter silently, and kill an unsuspecting PC in seconds with close to zero chance of getting caught or meeting any resistance but the victim's skills... which they're probably not well-prepared to even use in that moment since they're in their own home, possibly afk or Waying or not expecting to be instamurdered.

[Windstorm]

I'm just giving this addendum its own post because I felt it significant.

Assassinations are neat. Assassinations can be fun. I've done them in multiple games and settings but only in Armageddon is there this weird expectation that all that should be involved is spamming your backstab skill and then finding somebody, doing it solo and sneaking away.

No. This isn't villainy, this isn't engaging or interesting or impressive. Anyone can do that. Instead, plot it. Plan it. Roleplay it. Pay people off. Lure the guards away, account for them or take them out. Involve other people. Make it interesting and not just a code flex. I'd rather every kind of that type of "assassination" (generous term for boneheaded hack-and-slash play) failed so that people had to get more creative, personally.

I could detail escapades in other RPing environments and how deep and involved an assassination can and should be. I wish that was the standard here. Instead, it's "I should be able to sneak anywhere and kill somebody instantly because it's Antagonism(fucking lol, no it isn't)." It's a Uniquely ArmageddonMUD Demand and it's only from a very small section of the playerbase, but it's unceasingly weird to me.

Let people have homes. Right now they're deathtraps and the "villainy" people are advocating for in defense of the status quo is the most boring lunkheaded kind imaginable. If we want roleplaying standards, this is a fine example of where to start.

[dumbstruck]

You mean roleplay in this RPI? What?!?! <3 <3 <3

(Note, I'm actually with you and agree with all of those points. For the longest time I've been in favor of something where you can't kill someone without at least an emote and met with resistance from various parties on an astounding number of different grounds but dear god, it's supposed to be a roleplaying game, shouldn't we require some roleplay? And not just thoughts and feels, but yes, emoting, emotive actions, things that show the other player what your characters actions are in verbally impacting, descriptive ways? Oh, they'll run. Yeah, so did the people when it was me pk'ing. That's the game. If you can't still pk, get good and go at it again from another angle, if you don't want your identity revealed as someone antagonistic, well, maybe you just can't have it both ways and expecting it both ways is unrealistic. You want it realistic, realism dictates that criminal people get treated like criminals.)

[Dune Bunny]

I've posted about it several times in other threads. Until there's a change to stealth's interactions with small rooms/spaces, it's unlikely apartments will be any safer. So long as players with PK in mind can hide in a place that should be near impossible, they'll use that to their advantage.

If I'm in a tiny, torchlit hallway, no amount of stealth is going to make you invisible to the eye. If I'm in my 10x10 apartment, sitting at a table, I'm going to hear my lock picked open. I'm going to hear the door open, going to see the door open, going to hear it close, especially considering the quality of most doors in Zalanthas.

Once you're in my 10x10 apartment, with a table and a few boxes, you're not going to be invisible to the eye. Sure, there's always a possibility, but it shouldn't come with the same ease as hiding on Caravan in the middle of a crowd, or at midnight in a dark alley. There should be severe penalties to stealth in certain places, most apartments especially. Shadowing someone through a doorway should be extremely difficult, or even down a small hallway.

Then you have situations where it's not as simple as just hiding, sneaking, and backstabbing. You have to plan to assassination/robbery, you have to change the location to somewhere you won't be so easily noticed. And worst of all, you might have to work with other players to set things up with roleplay.

One of my worst moments on my character, Sylania; we were in a certain apartment building in a certain part of the world, in a hallway that was barely more than shoulder width. She and her sister are about to enter their home, when I notice a sneaky fella standing there with us. Syl looks at him, and is like 'Hello!' Then next thing I know, I try to speak further to him, and he's gone.

Syl is shocked, reports the instance to a Templar as filthy magick. I felt silly from an ooc standpoint doing so, as I knew it was just stealth, but from an IC standpoint, what should she and her sister have assumed? It just simply should've been impossible for that pc to disappear like that in such a confined space, under two pairs of eyes.

So yeah, my two sids on a way to make apartment trouble less troublesome, and potentially more "realistic".

(Or we can ignore all that, and make the apartment building gate guards work like estate guards. =P )

[Kialae]

I have lost characters in apartments pretty often. I'm faulting myself on that though - you gotta give people a shred of trust to do anything fun in this game, and sometimes it gets you killed. That's MCB baby.

It sure sucks in the moment but eh, I take a break and come back like a week later.

[Roon]

We used to have high-end apartments that took a lot of skill to break into. There weren't many, but they were there. The ones just south of the bazaar come to mind. They were basically penthouses and they had masterwork locks on the front doors. I think there were only two of these apartments in Allanak, don't know about Tuluk.

It also used to be that very few characters had access to the lockpicking skill. Only assassins and burglars got it. Only burglars got it high enough to pick the masterwork locks. Burglar was not a popular class because it kind of sucked at everything except picking locks, so if you lived in a high-end apartment, you were reasonably safe.

Then both of these things changed. The high-end apartments were removed and the pick skill was doled out to all kinds of classes and subclasses. I played a soldier/rogue some time back whose pick skill capped at journeyman, and I never encountered a lock I couldn't pick. I could pick literally every single apartment in both cities and in Red Storm.

It's not much of a surprise, then, that apartments lost their value and appeal.

[LindseyBalboa]

Syl is shocked, reports the instance to a Templar as filthy magick. I felt silly from an ooc standpoint doing so, as I knew it was just stealth, but from an IC standpoint, what should she and her sister have assumed? It just simply should've been impossible for that pc to disappear like that in such a confined space, under two pairs of eyes.

So yeah, my two sids on a way to make apartment trouble less troublesome, and potentially more "realistic".

(Or we can ignore all that, and make the apartment building gate guards work like estate guards. =P )

... non-seq this sounds exactly like the stuff I'd love to have reports of and roleplay about if I were a templar. I don't know if there could ever be enough of PCs accusing other PCs of witch-craft with or without foundation. Nice!

[Lotion]

I think the problem should go backwards
people need a place to put their crap
people have too much crap
people suck at inventory management

try playing a half-elf who spends most of their time in the wilderness and only returns to a city rarely while staying at light encumbrance or below and you will get so much better at this.

[Roon]

I think the problem should go backwards
people need a place to put their crap
people have too much crap
people suck at inventory management

try playing a half-elf who spends most of their time in the wilderness and only returns to a city rarely while staying at light encumbrance or below and you will get so much better at this.

There's no reason to hold that as the expectation for players. Not every character is a half-elf ranger who visits town once in a while. There are very valid character concepts where it should be possible to have multiple sets of clothes or a large amount of tools or just a place to go and discuss matters that can't be talked of in public. People don't "suck at inventory management" or "have too much crap" unless you think the lone ranger experience is the correct way to play the game and the city-dwelling person with a real job and social life is the wrong way to play.

I'd say the game is suffering because too many players do play untethered lone rangers who don't lead lives where there's a reason to have a real home and more belongings than you can stuff into a backpack. Living out of a single set of gear and rarely visiting a city is not some virtue that people should strive for. This game would benefit a lot from being better at facilitating a playstyle where being able to say 'this is where I live and this is what's in my home' is not a liability or simply unviable. At the very least, it would make crafting/buying things other than weapons and armor a lot more appealing.

Unfortunately, since apartments are only marginally more secure than a tent on Skid Row, it's an exercise in futility to play that way. It encourages playing the lone ranger who owns nothing but the shirt off his back and weapons on his belt. That's not the "correct" way to play Armageddon. The fact that too many play that way is one of the biggest problems this game has. While I wouldn't go so far a to tie a direct and exclusive causation to it, city life was way more popular and attractive back when it was relatively feasible to have an apartment because A) they (some of them, at least) were much harder to break into, and B) very few characters had the lockpicking skill or the means to make picks.

[Riev]

and B) very few characters had the lockpicking skill or the means to make picks.

When there was only 2 classes who could make picks in the first place and they were relatively squishy, it was easier to keep track of who had picks. It also required FINDING a pick in the first place to even make them, resulting in people who make picks understanding the rarity and power of them.

With expanded access to picks and some of the 'easiest' recipe picks being at the pristine level? Nowhere is safe, and a thief can ransack an entire apartment without anyone being able to do anything about it. And its defended as "but desert strife"

[Lotion]

I think the problem should go backwards
people need a place to put their crap
people have too much crap
people suck at inventory management

try playing a half-elf who spends most of their time in the wilderness and only returns to a city rarely while staying at light encumbrance or below and you will get so much better at this.

There's no reason to hold that as the expectation for players. Not every character is a half-elf ranger who visits town once in a while. There are very valid character concepts where it should be possible to have multiple sets of clothes or a large amount of tools or just a place to go and discuss matters that can't be talked of in public. People don't "suck at inventory management" or "have too much crap" unless you think the lone ranger experience is the correct way to play the game and the city-dwelling person with a real job and social life is the wrong way to play.

I'd say the game is suffering because too many players do play untethered lone rangers who don't lead lives where there's a reason to have a real home and more belongings than you can stuff into a backpack. Living out of a single set of gear and rarely visiting a city is not some virtue that people should strive for. This game would benefit a lot from being better at facilitating a playstyle where being able to say 'this is where I live and this is what's in my home' is not a liability or simply unviable. At the very least, it would make crafting/buying things other than weapons and armor a lot more appealing.

Unfortunately, since apartments are only marginally more secure than a tent on Skid Row, it's an exercise in futility to play that way. It encourages playing the lone ranger who owns nothing but the shirt off his back and weapons on his belt. That's not the "correct" way to play Armageddon. The fact that too many play that way is one of the biggest problems this game has. While I wouldn't go so far a to tie a direct and exclusive causation to it, city life was way more popular and attractive back when it was relatively feasible to have an apartment because A) they (some of them, at least) were much harder to break into, and B) very few characters had the lockpicking skill or the means to make picks.

I think you misunderstand. I'm not saying players shouldn't be allowed to have all of those nice multiple outfits or whatnot. What I am saying is that players should play characters in a way that is supported by the code or else they will face frequent playability issues.

[Dracul]

Having not contributed to this thread much but experienced most of these things (I don't think I've ever been killed in an apartment yet though, I have witnessed apartment murders...)

A) I'd love to see apartments/tents in Luirs without having to play bob the builder dwarf whose primary goal in life will lead him to a very boring roleplaying experience. forage rock,. get rock, drop rock with ldesc.    ...okay I actually do kinda enjoy that with certain charcters....

B) Locks don't work, I want a physical guard. If it costs more cool, if it makes the other places cost less okay. The amount something costs can always be balanced.

[mansa]

...
B) Locks don't work, I want a physical guard. If it costs more cool, if it makes the other places cost less okay. The amount something costs can always be balanced.

Interesting concept.

You would need to have the NPC guard be the same "clan" as you, to make it prevent people from entering and coming.

You can either:
a) Have a "merchant house employee / noble house employee" apartment complex, that includes guards for select rooms - it won't protect you against other merchant house employees stealing from you, though. 
"Do you want to rent the Tor room?  The Kadius room?"

b) Write code that would automatically clan you for an "apartment clan for room x", and the NPC guard would only allow you to walk through.   Requires code to invoke auto-clanning and auto-kicking you when the rent is over.

[Windstorm]

There's no reason to hold that as the expectation for players. Not every character is a half-elf ranger who visits town once in a while. There are very valid character concepts where it should be possible to have multiple sets of clothes or a large amount of tools or just a place to go and discuss matters that can't be talked of in public. People don't "suck at inventory management" or "have too much crap" unless you think the lone ranger experience is the correct way to play the game and the city-dwelling person with a real job and social life is the wrong way to play.

I'd say the game is suffering because too many players do play untethered lone rangers who don't lead lives where there's a reason to have a real home and more belongings than you can stuff into a backpack. Living out of a single set of gear and rarely visiting a city is not some virtue that people should strive for. This game would benefit a lot from being better at facilitating a playstyle where being able to say 'this is where I live and this is what's in my home' is not a liability or simply unviable. At the very least, it would make crafting/buying things other than weapons and armor a lot more appealing.

Unfortunately, since apartments are only marginally more secure than a tent on Skid Row, it's an exercise in futility to play that way. It encourages playing the lone ranger who owns nothing but the shirt off his back and weapons on his belt. That's not the "correct" way to play Armageddon. The fact that too many play that way is one of the biggest problems this game has. While I wouldn't go so far a to tie a direct and exclusive causation to it, city life was way more popular and attractive back when it was relatively feasible to have an apartment because A) they (some of them, at least) were much harder to break into, and B) very few characters had the lockpicking skill or the means to make picks.

This is one of my favorite posts ever.

Soooooooo agreeeeeeeeed and how has this not been noticed? It seems like a rather glaring hole in which city based and social players are just left out in the cold where basic functionalities of play should be.