Let's talk about apartments

[Inks]

+1 to that. The all or nothing nature of stealth annoys me too, there should at least be a penalty inside apartments that make you easier to scan down, with nohide in tiny ones.


Unrelated just an amusing thing to find as a OG burglar, I've seen someone put a whole skimmer in an apartment before too and use it as storage.

[LetaSpringle]

Why wreck it for criminal types? Conflict makes the game fun. Safe places for crafters = criminals have nothing to do. Should just get rid of the pick and steal skills, eh? This seems bogus. If someone is acting unreasonbly about their criminal mischief isn't the request tool the best way to address it? No criminals means no need for law enforcers. I like the conflict, characters not players complaining IC that their place was robbed, soldiers deciding if they should investigate or not and if so then they investigate. It all drives roleplay, plotlines. Maybe you find out that the criminal stole someone's spice that they weren't supposed to have in the city and now you can arrest them both.  Also gives criminal bosses something to teach their recruits - how to get away with the crimes instead of drawing attention to them.

I think the lack of safety is fun from victim and enforcer point of view. If it's happening too much or in an unbelievable way then report it to the staff, let them sort it out? That's my 2 gold coins.

[Jarvis]

Why wreck it for criminal types? Conflict makes the game fun. Safe places for crafters = criminals have nothing to do. Should just get rid of the pick and steal skills, eh? This seems bogus. If someone is acting unreasonbly about their criminal mischief isn't the request tool the best way to address it? No criminals means no need for law enforcers. I like the conflict, characters not players complaining IC that their place was robbed, soldiers deciding if they should investigate or not and if so then they investigate. It all drives roleplay, plotlines. Maybe you find out that the criminal stole someone's spice that they weren't supposed to have in the city and now you can arrest them both.  Also gives criminal bosses something to teach their recruits - how to get away with the crimes instead of drawing attention to them.

I think the lack of safety is fun from victim and enforcer point of view. If it's happening too much or in an unbelievable way then report it to the staff, let them sort it out? That's my 2 gold coins.

Nor 8 nor 80. Stealth right now is just absolute to a nonsensical point. It'd be nice if people without scan also had their passive wisdom contested or something, with heavy penalties in rooms that are just a barren square.

I've had an elf break into a noble-guarded room where it was just a barren straight hallway with a guard who's sole job would be to stare forwards and not let people into that door. Admittedly this was a brainlet move of mine without any notion of the virtual world.

Could you correct this grade level stuff with staff monitoring? Ya. Would staff do literally nothing else if that were the case? Ya.

I do think the stealth has to be rebalanced, because right now its very meh from both a victim and criminal point of view. It functions more like a cloak of invisibility spell that works anywhere with high enough skill+agi

[LetaSpringle]

Why wreck it for criminal types? Conflict makes the game fun. Safe places for crafters = criminals have nothing to do. Should just get rid of the pick and steal skills, eh? This seems bogus. If someone is acting unreasonbly about their criminal mischief isn't the request tool the best way to address it? No criminals means no need for law enforcers. I like the conflict, characters not players complaining IC that their place was robbed, soldiers deciding if they should investigate or not and if so then they investigate. It all drives roleplay, plotlines. Maybe you find out that the criminal stole someone's spice that they weren't supposed to have in the city and now you can arrest them both.  Also gives criminal bosses something to teach their recruits - how to get away with the crimes instead of drawing attention to them.

I think the lack of safety is fun from victim and enforcer point of view. If it's happening too much or in an unbelievable way then report it to the staff, let them sort it out? That's my 2 gold coins.

Nor 8 nor 80. Stealth right now is just absolute to a nonsensical point. It'd be nice if people without scan also had their passive wisdom contested or something, with heavy penalties in rooms that are just a barren square.

I've had an elf break into a noble-guarded room where it was just a barren straight hallway with a guard who's sole job would be to stare forwards and not let people into that door. Admittedly this was a brainlet move of mine without any notion of the virtual world.

Could you correct this grade level stuff with staff monitoring? Ya. Would staff do literally nothing else if that were the case? Ya.

I do think the stealth has to be rebalanced, because right now its very meh from both a victim and criminal point of view. It functions more like a cloak of invisibility spell that works anywhere with high enough skill+agi

I agree. But it wasn't what I was responding to. Someone wanted unclanned crafters to have crime-proof places to store things. I don't like that idea. I said why.  That's really my only input here.

[DesertT]

It seems that there's an assumption being levied by some that others of us want "a completely safe apartment".

That's not the case.  We want apartments that are priced higher and provide more safety and security.  Guarded hallways.  Doors you can't Shadow someone through.  Things like that.

If you break into someone's apartment and hide under their cot or in the closet, I have no issues.  The issue I have is when people simply Shadow someone down a lone hallway and into their apartment.

So if there's a way to make apartment doorways shadow-proof, I think that's a decent compromise.  Having guards in hallways giving a sneak/hide penalty would also be a neat feature, again, adding to the monthly cost of such apartments.

[MatisseOrOtherwise]

It seems that there's an assumption being levied by some that others of us want "a completely safe apartment".

That's not the case.  We want apartments that are priced higher and provide more safety and security.  Guarded hallways.  Doors you can't Shadow someone through.  Things like that.

If you break into someone's apartment and hide under their cot or in the closet, I have no issues.  The issue I have is when people simply Shadow someone down a lone hallway and into their apartment.

So if there's a way to make apartment doorways shadow-proof, I think that's a decent compromise.  Having guards in hallways giving a sneak/hide penalty would also be a neat feature, again, adding to the monthly cost of such apartments.

Maybe in the most 'premium' apartments, for 50% more cost. Say a city has 3 choices of apartment complexes for commonfolk, one at an average of 250, one at 400, and one at 800. Maybe the 800 gets bumped to 1200 and there's a couple guards circling now.

[papertiger]

I'd like more places listed with some ambient rentals so its not so heckin obvious. Seems very difficult not to be small worldy with like 4 places and only one occupied.

[MatisseOrOtherwise]

I'd like more places listed with some ambient rentals so its not so heckin obvious. Seems very difficult not to be small worldy with like 4 places and only one occupied.

thief gameplay
walk up to apartment, hit 'list'
all unoccupied, move on, don't break into any today
rinse and repeat

it does feel a bit OOC, because the tellers at the front would 100% become sus of someone coming up and asking how many apartments are available today over and over :V

[whengravityfails]

Right, I realized my opinion was kind of one sided and changed my mind.

[Jarvis]

I agree. But it wasn't what I was responding to. Someone wanted unclanned crafters to have crime-proof places to store things. I don't like that idea. I said why.  That's really my only input here.

Ah fair enough. My bad

[Gentleboy]

1. We should be able to buy out an apartment. And once bought, not rented, have the ability to customize it. You wouldn't be able to build rooms since the building is not what you bought, but, maybe you can add a wall or a closet. Things like that. Put in a counter, a cooking source etc. Make it yours.

2. We should not be fighting in apartments. Give us a fighting pit someplace so people can meet there. It's not the Byn, but, here and there, people can see where they're at.

3. Put a Housing system (it will suck bad) in the Rinth. I was a lonefoot elf carrying a lot of coin and stolen items on me but had no place to hide it. To make for better stealth RP, they need a place to stash their stash. Not everything needs to be resold. I think a lot of people would enjoy the RP opportunity of trying to haggle for their things back.

[RheaGhe]

1. We should be able to buy out an apartment. And once bought, not rented, have the ability to customize it. You wouldn't be able to build rooms since the building is not what you bought, but, maybe you can add a wall or a closet. Things like that. Put in a counter, a cooking source etc. Make it yours.

2. We should not be fighting in apartments. Give us a fighting pit someplace so people can meet there. It's not the Byn, but, here and there, people can see where they're at.

3. Put a Housing system (it will suck bad) in the Rinth. I was a lonefoot elf carrying a lot of coin and stolen items on me but had no place to hide it. To make for better stealth RP, they need a place to stash their stash. Not everything needs to be resold. I think a lot of people would enjoy the RP opportunity of trying to haggle for their things back.

Adding onto point 1 and showing how all sides of the equation can benefit from this: Smugglers Cabinets and drawers.

Agreed on point 2.

Point 3 I agree with, but have it maintained by a faction, and requiring their approval in some way. Whoever the current power is west and east side should control these places, and have the ability to associate people for their rental.

[digitaleak]

Having limited "upscale" apartment options that offer more security is a fun idea to me. They'd be highly competitive to obtain and maintain IC and if a thief found a way to break in, would likely be cashing in on a huge pay day.

I also support someone wanting a place to play house and being willing to pay the higher price tag for it. That's half the fun for some city-based characters. It doesn't mean a criminal pc couldn't find a way to still kill their mark in the city or in the apartment. It would require a bit more planning maybe, but there are apartments in real life that are harder to break into and some that are easier. Why not reflect this in arm?

[wizturbo]

I am a huge proponent of letting people buy more secure apartments at a high price.  It would be a great coin sink in the game, encouraging players to chase coin more to afford it.  At the same time it would allow players to have a place they can deck out with all the fun craftable items in the game without the enormous risk of having it stolen in days.  And of course it'll give someone a place to actually have some privacy if they want it.

No one loses here.

[LetaSpringle]

I am a huge proponent of letting people buy more secure apartments at a high price.  It would be a great coin sink in the game, encouraging players to chase coin more to afford it.  At the same time it would allow players to have a place they can deck out with all the fun craftable items in the game without the enormous risk of having it stolen in days.  And of course it'll give someone a place to actually have some privacy if they want it.

No one loses here.

Who loses:
Burglar-types, who have nothing valuable to steal.
Soldiers, who have no one to arrest and less need to interact with crafters.
Mob-type underbosses, who have no need to have minions.
Nobles, who have no one to bribe.

Everyone loses except the crafters, who can just spam-sell everything to the shops and get rich.  The safer you make it for one group, the less need for the other group to exist.

[digitaleak]

I am a huge proponent of letting people buy more secure apartments at a high price.  It would be a great coin sink in the game, encouraging players to chase coin more to afford it.  At the same time it would allow players to have a place they can deck out with all the fun craftable items in the game without the enormous risk of having it stolen in days.  And of course it'll give someone a place to actually have some privacy if they want it.

No one loses here.

Who loses:
Burglar-types, who have nothing valuable to steal.
Soldiers, who have no one to arrest and less need to interact with crafters.
Mob-type underbosses, who have no need to have minions.
Nobles, who have no one to bribe.

Everyone loses except the crafters, who can just spam-sell everything to the shops and get rich.  The safer you make it for one group, the less need for the other group to exist.

Maybe I'm just ignorant, but how do these types lose?

It seems like burglar types could still harass the cheapo apartments (since the fancy ones would be limited)

Soldiers could still harass crafters if that's their only way of RPing in cities since not every crafter is going to rent an apartment (even the cheap ones) though I would hope soldiers have more important tasks to RP like war, crime, and templar stuff...

Underbosses would still need minions because hopefully their story arcs run deep in politics and other secret events.

Nobles would absolutely have the ability to bribe since these high class apartments would likely be controlled/influenced by them.

[LetaSpringle]

I am a huge proponent of letting people buy more secure apartments at a high price.  It would be a great coin sink in the game, encouraging players to chase coin more to afford it.  At the same time it would allow players to have a place they can deck out with all the fun craftable items in the game without the enormous risk of having it stolen in days.  And of course it'll give someone a place to actually have some privacy if they want it.

No one loses here.

Who loses:
Burglar-types, who have nothing valuable to steal.
Soldiers, who have no one to arrest and less need to interact with crafters.
Mob-type underbosses, who have no need to have minions.
Nobles, who have no one to bribe.

Everyone loses except the crafters, who can just spam-sell everything to the shops and get rich.  The safer you make it for one group, the less need for the other group to exist.

Maybe I'm just ignorant, but how do these types lose?

It seems like burglar types could still harass the cheapo apartments (since the fancy ones would be limited)

Soldiers could still harass crafters if that's their only way of RPing in cities since not every crafter is going to rent an apartment (even the cheap ones) though I would hope soldiers have more important tasks to RP like war, crime, and templar stuff...

Underbosses would still need minions because hopefully their story arcs run deep in politics and other secret events.

Nobles would absolutely have the ability to bribe since these high class apartments would likely be controlled/influenced by them.

Burglars can't make a living on scraps of cloth, small pieces of bone, burnt-out torches. If the people who can make the most money are secure then burglars can't rob them.  The mob bosses don't need to hire them, and that's one less income-earning opportunity for them. Then soldiers won't be arresting the burglars or really care about them since they're not robbing anyone of anything important anyway. All the good stuff is secure. High class apartments wouldn't be controlled or influenced by mob bosses if the apartments are secure. They can't get into them anyway so why should they care?

It's sort of a butterfly effect situation.

[digitaleak]

Well, I guess my confusion comes from earlier posts in the thread that suggested these apartments wouldn't be impenetrable. They just wouldn't be as codedly easy to follow someone into.

I also find it hard to believe that a person who's entire character is to rough people up and steal from them would only be doing that via apartments. There really seem like other ways to achieve these goals. Am I wrong in that hope/assumption?

[Jimpka_Moss]

I think this is stilted to the fact that people who expect they might have someone(s) who would want to murder them simply don't go in apartments and know not to.

Yes, I'm afraid if your PC does things that make other people want to kill them, then life will be difficult and they will have to watch their back.

Well, then established PCs with worthwhile belongings or who engage in conflict are basically dependent on clan compounds because no other form of security exists. Even in small rooms with which a PC would probably be intimately familiar, with no furnishings and any amount of lighting available, even if said PC knows someone else is present, someone can be there effectively invisible and invincible inside unless they choose not to be. They can get past a locked door also, I'm fairly sure including approaching, stepping through, and closing it silently, and if I'm not mistaken, can go undetected even if someone is actively watching, if their stealth skill is high enough. It's not hard at all to get to that point, either. Does that really sound reasonable or realistic?

In addition, when they start murdering you afterwards, no one will hear or know because apartments aside from shouting through the door are also soundproof.

(Last I'd seen the statistics, Miscreant is the most popular main class choice on ArmageddonMUD, mind.)

Players avoiding this unrealistic and pretty easily lethal situation isn't some boon or credit to immersion, Usiku, it's them avoiding coded mechanics that are pretty ridiculous. And if I'm being honest, I think you know that.

Regardless, This thread mostly started because Armageddon's pretty unique in that regard, and I'd spoken to a player that had left because of it. But if it's working the way it's supposed to, then I guess it is. I just disagree that it's necessarily good for the game, and definitely not realistic or any sort of enhancement to gameplay whatsoever.

Rest assured, there's plenty of other viable places to murder. The fact that the easiest location is where PCs would otherwise be making their homes is a little out there.

I'd like to crosspost here, re: the Karma thread.

Windstorm, you have the Right here to expect a decent amount of roleplay with your death. That includes apartment kills that make sense dammit. I don't think the code needs to change, so much as this right here needs to be highlighted as a part of our community's RP standards, as a bottom line.


If in a plain, empty room, with bright light and no furniture, someone is sneaking and INVISIBLE because of mere code alone, that's terrible. If you die from it, there should have been a staff wish or notification, and someone, by which I mean the victim, needs to file a complaint. I say complaint because it's the only request option that opens an investigation, and at that point, for whatever 'karma' is supposed to represent, staff and player trust are removed from that player if they didn't have roleplay that backed that up, like a sheet that was the same color as the wall, or... like, I'm stretching hard to think of a reason, but /so would they/. And their emotes and RP had better back it up, otherwise it's invalid.



The above is something that's a given, implicit, unstated. Unfortunately, it needs to be stated again. You have a right to expect a certain standard of roleplay with your char's death, and if it wasn't met, then file a complaint so we all can eventually see if it was perception or reality.

[Gentleboy]

There are not a lot of people who play full guilded crafters.

A lot of people play middle/utility classes. Stalker and miscreant or their more combat focused pals. Rinth ppl be wild. They play every class.

Anyway, let the crafters have something. There are no RPTS for them.

Give them the chance to get really nice workshop/apartments.

[dumbstruck]

There are not a lot of people who play full guilded crafters.

A lot of people play middle/utility classes. Stalker and miscreant or their more combat focused pals. Rinth ppl be wild. They play every class.

Anyway, let the crafters have something. There are no RPTS for them.

Give them the chance to get really nice workshop/apartments.

Bolded for emphasis, really. Even if it's just really specific apartments and there's ridiculous costs and hoops, I like the idea of it, for the emphasized reason.

There are magick rpts, there are combat rpts. There are never rpts for crafters. At best you get auctions and those are almost always targeted toward freakin' sponsored roles, not actual crafters.

[LetaSpringle]

Well, I guess my confusion comes from earlier posts in the thread that suggested these apartments wouldn't be impenetrable. They just wouldn't be as codedly easy to follow someone into.

I also find it hard to believe that a person who's entire character is to rough people up and steal from them would only be doing that via apartments. There really seem like other ways to achieve these goals. Am I wrong in that hope/assumption?

I specified burglars. Burglars don't rough people up and steal from them. They rob apartments.

[digitaleak]

So if the more expensive apartments weren't impenetrable, I am still struggling to understand how burglar types would be affected.

[LetaSpringle]

So if the more expensive apartments weren't impenetrable, I am still struggling to understand how burglar types would be affected.

Again. Someone wanted unclanned crafter apartments that could be made crime-proof with hall guards and such. I disagreed and explained why.

[BadSkeelz]

Windstorm, you have the Right here to expect a decent amount of roleplay with your death. That includes apartment kills that make sense dammit. I don't think the code needs to change, so much as this right here needs to be highlighted as a part of our community's RP standards, as a bottom line.

This is, in practical terms, patently false. No one was the Right to anything except when it comes to consent and Rape plotlines (and god knows some people do their best to skirt those). You have no Right to roleplay. To believe otherwise is to invite bitterness and disappointment. Have no expectation of it. If you want good roleplay, force it on others by putting yourself in a position of power and privilege and demand it from them on pain of death.