Recent Poison Updates Questions

[Armaddict]

The whole point of this was to make 'common' poisons more commonly useful, as far as I understand, and to make the 'effective' poisons more rare and valuable.  To me, this mostly comes down to PvP scenarios.  I believe that moving forward, there will have to be a lot of inspection on the strength of poisons as we have them, because the entire poison/pvp environment is going to be shifting and changing over this.

Just a suggestion, while this ecology of poison is leveling out and being inspected and tweaked and made into what -will be better-, I do believe deaths to poison should be inspected for chances of resurrection.  I know this is against general policy, but this is also a fairly drastic shift in risk assessment and pvp engagements; I have been hit by bloodburn doing 9/10 of my hp in damage twice now, and that was from what used to be a relatively weak dose.

I don't think this special consideration needs to last long, just long enough for the knowledge to be gained in game and spread, and for new systems of preparation to come into play.  Basically, the 'significant effect' of the common poisons is supposed to be based around advantage-gain, not lethality.  That's why we didn't want the effective poisons being common.  We want less lethality, to make for engagements where poison is not an I-win, but a 'I'm closer to winning now'.  It can change a hunter into prey, but prey still tries to evade and often does get away.  While we sort out new strengths, and whatnot, I'd hate for characters to be lost because they continued to try to poison without a cure because this thing used to not be too lethal.

[LindseyBalboa]

Will cures in NPC shop inventories degrade over time?
Will there be a way for a player to examine a cure for its potency level (including degradation)?

You can be assured that shopkeeper's cures they sell will be top quality!  Best value around!  Don't buy the other guy!

Yes, assess will show you strength/potency if you have the brew skill for cures, poisoning skill for poison.

Is there any crossover? like high poisoning giving low level brew identifying, and vice versa. Reflecting the fact that if you've failed with poison that often, you've probably handled a lot of cures etc etc.

[Svalinya]

Stuff.

This might be the most unpopular opinion I've seen today. There aren't enough doctors to go around and they make bank as is. I'd also rather not see more insta death by elven poison arrow going around. Or death by snake.

[Bloodpaint]

There aren't enough doctors to go around

There is, and always is, or people that know them, I never once had to use NPCs - the amount of cures running around is silly, nearly every grebber and hunter shouldn't have a full set against every form of poison imaginable, but that's where we ended up.

[najdorf]

I'm unhappy with the changes, because my accumulated ooc knowledge is now useless, which removes my edge over the less knowledgeable playerbase.
Therefore, my opinion is very biased on the topic, and should be totally ignored. 

[Bloodpaint]

I mean the point is those characters with the knowledge aren't going to be stopped or impacted much at all and it's been ridiculously easy for a while now, adding NPC stuff just exploded it to comical levels where people that would not be, realistically, are all kitted up as if they are high ranking aides expecting an assassination at any moment

[Riev]

I mean the point is those characters with the knowledge aren't going to be stopped or impacted much at all and it's been ridiculously easy for a while now, adding NPC stuff just exploded it to comical levels where people that would not be, realistically, are all kitted up as if they are high ranking aides expecting an assassination at any moment

In a rare swing, I actually agree with Bloodpaint on this.


When cures originally came out, there was really no way to determine what the cure was for. Sure, if you knew the color and shape, you could reason out one of a couple kinds of cures, but without brew you never really KNEW. Even then, the time to get a cure, analyze, and try and remember if thats teh right combination for what ails you... you're probably already dead. Now, we have colors on vials showing, and about 9 different kinds of vials that you can use so at a glance you can tell what vial-cure you just pulled.

I've had characters (too recent to talk about) that would make cures. I tried selling to military organizations like the Byn and hunters. A "full" set of cures was like... 2 or 3 of the "common" cures and one of the "rare" cures. All said and done, a full set was like 1500 coins. AND I THOUGHT THEY WERE GETTING AWAY WITH MURDER AT THOSE PRICES.

I'm on board for "We should brew up a few cures for this trip, just in case", even if that raises the prices of "escorts". Its like warspice... Warspice is AWESOME. You just have to know you're going into a scenario where its warranted. Same with cures and poisons, you should be acquiring them in preparation for a planned event, not a 100% effective "Break Glass in Case of Emergency" scenario.

[Alesan]

I'm on board for "We should brew up a few cures for this trip, just in case", even if that raises the prices of "escorts". Its like warspice... Warspice is AWESOME. You just have to know you're going into a scenario where its warranted. Same with cures and poisons, you should be acquiring them in preparation for a planned event, not a 100% effective "Break Glass in Case of Emergency" scenario.

If only we could enforce this ideology with both cures and poisons. Because we all know it's not going to play out that way.

[Riev]

I'm on board for "We should brew up a few cures for this trip, just in case", even if that raises the prices of "escorts". Its like warspice... Warspice is AWESOME. You just have to know you're going into a scenario where its warranted. Same with cures and poisons, you should be acquiring them in preparation for a planned event, not a 100% effective "Break Glass in Case of Emergency" scenario.

If only we could enforce this ideology with both cures and poisons. Because we all know it's not going to play out that way.

So long as a poisoned blade keeps its potency for 3-4 RL weeks, I'd be okay with it. It could drop off SHARPLY after that, and I'd be fine. If you need a poisoned blade/arrow/dart/whatever, and you aren't going to use it in a RL month? You didn't NEED it, and you can afford to get another one done.

You can afford the like 50 coins for a bloodburn cure that you ended up not needed, and now you need to replace it. What the hell are you doing, where your character is in constant need of this poison cure, and isn't making coin enough to buy new ones every IC year?

[Nao]

What are wilderness PCs going to do that need to deal with angkh, cilops and scorpions on a daily basis if cures are some rare thing that's only available from PCs?

[Armaddict]

What are wilderness PCs going to do that need to deal with angkh, cilops and scorpions on a daily basis if cures are some rare thing that's only available from PCs?

Prioritize brew.  Or choose not to.

Why are we pretending that everyone who has any exposure to poison should just automatically have all capability of dealing with it again?  Make character choices.

[Brytta Léofa]

What are wilderness PCs going to do that need to deal with angkh, cilops and scorpions on a daily basis if cures are some rare thing that's only available from PCs?

I think the current answer is: the regions where those critters are found are meant to be dangerous, and you can't expect to just traverse them casually.

Which is fine! It's just a change in expectations. A year or two ago an experienced player could expect to buy a couple cure tablets from a shop and then run their new PC between most starting locations without much worry. Today that's less possible.

[Halaster]

As for the NPC status of selling cures and poisons:

Yes, those who sell it will to continue to sell them.  However, everything sold by an NPC is going to be inferior to those craftable by PC's.  They will be selling low to mid level (mostly low) cures and poisons.

[Halaster]

There is also new functionality that let's us specify the potency level of NPC's who poison you.  Meaning, we can lower the potency of snakes, raise it for cilops, or whatever.  And will be balancing that as best we can.

[Nura]

What are wilderness PCs going to do that need to deal with angkh, cilops and scorpions on a daily basis if cures are some rare thing that's only available from PCs?

Prioritize brew.  Or choose not to.

Why are we pretending that everyone who has any exposure to poison should just automatically have all capability of dealing with it again?  Make character choices.

You still need to 'kickstart' that shit and will need cures before your brew is high enough to successfully make a cure. It's a chicken egg problem.

I think the current answer is: the regions where those critters are found are meant to be dangerous, and you can't expect to just traverse them casually.

Cool. There are (at least) a couple of delf tribes that live in the middle of these regions now. They can't just chose to avoid these regions.

[Armaddict]

You still need to 'kickstart' that shit and will need cures before your brew is high enough to successfully make a cure. It's a chicken egg problem.

You will need them if you don't play accordingly, sure.  Circumstance still happens, but that's the way death happens in dangerous worlds.  I don't see any benefit to revamps that create new systems that are easy to ignore.  Tread carefully in the wilds, because even the wary and experienced still find death there due to circumstance.

I don't believe this is exactly a foreign idea, it's just that the last several years of changes have steadily made danger less dangerous.  It isn't that things are more dangerous now than before, it's that we got used to things getting easier in a generally hard-to-survive environment.

Ironically, I can remember similar discussions with either down or up arrows on when cures were first revamped, when most clans began providing food and water via npc's, and even when kanks were removed.  This is just another event of the 'difficulty bar' being raised or lowered based off the current climate of player actions.  There was, believe it or not, a period of time where death in the sands was the rule, not the exception, and people gathered up in cities like moths to flame, and prominent hunters made real names for themselves.  This might be the opportune time to Make Cities Great Again, if desert play is more enjoyable without risk than with it.

[Halcyon]

There aren't enough doctors to go around

There is, and always is, or people that know them, I never once had to use NPCs - the amount of cures running around is silly, nearly every grebber and hunter shouldn't have a full set against every form of poison imaginable, but that's where we ended up.

We ended up there because very few of us lose more than a few characters without adjusting our play.   

[lostinspace]

Raising this topic because it almost cost me my favorite character in the past.

How will item reimbursements be handled for cures? I, a non brewer, had all of my cures lost due to a reset when being strip searched by a Templar.

I put in a request that has a list of the colors/shapes of tablets and vials/liquids I had in my bag, as well as their supposed use (what they cure). Again, I have no way of verifying that these cures actually worked or their potency, and now that the items are lost staff will have no idea about those facts either.

Will we be given cures of top effectiveness, bottom effectiveness, useless lumps?

In the past when I was been given cures from a reimbursement request, they were all duds. The entire selection that I found a brewer to make and payed 2k+ for were all just useless colored lumps. Which I discovered by nearly dying to bloodburn.

[Delirium]

In the past when I was been given cures from a reimbursement request, they were all duds. The entire selection that I found a brewer to make and payed 2k+ for were all just useless colored lumps. Which I discovered by nearly dying to bloodburn.

Oh that was you. Glad I happened to be online. I can confirm that what you had originally was legitimate.

There's some sort of quirk (feature) where staff-loaded cures don't hold their values, and AFAIK, that includes the cures loaded on shopkeepers, unless they're "old style" cures. I'm not sure if that's been fixed yet.

[Agent_137]

if i have to coordinate with a PC to get a good poison and even if I keep it on me, it fades in real life weeks... that is really unfun maintenance grind nonsense.

I'm all for clans not being able to stockpile for years and years. But if I an independent go on some mini-quest to find the coin and the poisoner and acquire some poison, I'd like it to last a good long while. Same for cures.

p.s.
with medicinal herbs planned to be spawned randomly in a zone, both cures and advanced poisons will also be harder to create and supply requiring their own dangerous exploration. For all this work and risk, the reword should at least persist a long time for the player that keeps it on them. What other game has you work hard to attain something useful and then it disappears on its own without even being used?

[Riev]

if i have to coordinate with a PC to get a good poison and even if I keep it on me, it fades in real life weeks... that is really unfun maintenance grind nonsense.

I'm all for clans not being able to stockpile for years and years. But if I an independent go on some mini-quest to find the coin and the poisoner and acquire some poison, I'd like it to last a good long while. Same for cures.

p.s.
with medicinal herbs planned to be spawned randomly in a zone, both cures and advanced poisons will also be harder to create and supply requiring their own dangerous exploration. For all this work and risk, the reword should at least persist a long time for the player that keeps it on them. What other game has you work hard to attain something useful and then it disappears on its own without even being used?

All concerns that were addressed, I think. If the issue isn't "the change" but more "making sure its balanced"... there's really nothing we can do to discuss that.

I think they mentioned that things will likely last a good long time. But I do ascribe to the idea that if you bought a poisoned knife a year ago, it might not be AS CAPABLE anymore, because you've never really used it. I think the idea of "potency" isn't to say "useless" just "less useful".

I struggle with this idea, but I wanted to put it out there: Not every instance of "successful" PVP needs to end in death for one of the parties. Maybe a "less potent" poison can be used just to prove you COULD have killed them.

[Brokkr]

if i have to coordinate with a PC to get a good poison and even if I keep it on me, it fades in real life weeks... that is really unfun maintenance grind nonsense.

Are you getting it for "just in case"?

Or are you getting it for an identified need, i.e. you intend to use it?

I think the burden looks a lot more intimdiating for the first than the second.  As it should?

Maybe that seems extreme, but consider this.  Currently, there are players where their "just in case" poison is peraine.  M*****FU****G Peraine.

Will this change make that go away?  We can hope.  Your "just in case" poison may be bloodburn, or grishen or something.  For your identified need like an assassination you may try to get a high potency peraine/heramide/whatever so you have a much better chance of success.  That seems much more balanced than folks having a peraine blade just in case.

[Nao]

if i have to coordinate with a PC to get a good poison and even if I keep it on me, it fades in real life weeks... that is really unfun maintenance grind nonsense.

Are you getting it for "just in case"?

Or are you getting it for an identified need, i.e. you intend to use it?

I think the burden looks a lot more intimdiating for the first than the second.  As it should?

Maybe that seems extreme, but consider this.  Currently, there are players where their "just in case" poison is peraine.  M*****FU****G Peraine.

Will this change make that go away?  We can hope.  Your "just in case" poison may be bloodburn, or grishen or something.  For your identified need like an assassination you may try to get a high potency peraine/heramide/whatever so you have a much better chance of success.  That seems much more balanced than folks having a peraine blade just in case.

There will always be people with potent 'just in case' poisons as long as they're attainable at all. The difficulty does not decrease just because you want to use it for an assassination. If you want to eliminate 'just in case' peraine, then you'll have to remove it from the game entirely.

[Armaddict]

There will always be people with potent 'just in case' poisons as long as they're attainable at all. The difficulty does not decrease just because you want to use it for an assassination. If you want to eliminate 'just in case' peraine, then you'll have to remove it from the game entirely.

That remains to be seen.  More difficult to attain, and decaying, we currently do not know how sensible it will be to keep 'just in case' potent poisons, depending on the risk of attaining them.

[Nura]

There will always be people with potent 'just in case' poisons as long as they're attainable at all. The difficulty does not decrease just because you want to use it for an assassination. If you want to eliminate 'just in case' peraine, then you'll have to remove it from the game entirely.

That remains to be seen.  More difficult to attain, and decaying, we currently do not know how sensible it will be to keep 'just in case' potent poisons, depending on the risk of attaining them.

They might fall out of fashion altogether (for assassinations and 'just in case') if you make it hard enough, which seems to be part of the purpose. It's already vastly easier to use someone with AI str and a big club than any sort of poison. There's not much of a niche for assassin-like PCs anymore because brute force is just better at everything.