Recent Poison Updates Questions

[mansa]

I think the question is...

I have the brew skill.  I do not have the poisoning skill.

I am exploring brewing items with a variety of combinations of herbs.

After I make my 'mash' or 'tablet' or 'vial', I 'analyze' the item to see what I've made.

I infer that "if it tastes like Ash, it isn't a valid recipe, since everything tastes like Ash UNLESS it's a valid recipe for a cure."


However, valid recipes for poisons (not cures), when crafted taste like 'ash'.  How can I tell if I am successful in creating poison tablets, if I need to eat every 'ash' tablet I make to discover it?

[Riev]

it is also

I have the Brew skill at Master. I have the Poisoning Skill at master. I create a 3-ingredient brewed poison mash.
When I analyze the mash, it "tastes like ash" instead of a valid combination.

Will that be fixed?

[Brokkr]

Sort of overthinking it.

The paste is a craft.  A craft that needs a valid combination.

At least currently.  Maybe we should change that.

[Riev]

Sort of overthinking it.

The paste is a craft.  A craft that needs a valid combination.

At least currently.  Maybe we should change that.

Forget the paste. Forget the current changes in effect.

If I create a cure for bloodburn, on analyze, it returns "it tastes like <the stuff bloodburn cures taste like". This confirms a valid recipe.
if I create a POISON for bloodburn, on analyze, it returns "it tastes like ash"

Is that still the case? Because if so, only people who 'already know how to make poison OOCly" will be creating poisons.

[Brokkr]

I crafted the mash.  Let me combine with a poison I know is bloodburn.

Oh I can not craft it, it must not be bloodburn.
Or
Oh I can craft it, it must be a bloodburn mash.

No tasting poison necessary (which sounds dangerous).

[mansa]

I crafted the mash.  Let me combine with a poison I know is bloodburn.

Oh I can not craft it, it must not be bloodburn.
Or
Oh I can craft it, it must be a bloodburn mash.

No tasting poison necessary (which sounds dangerous).

You can't expect players to take every 'mash that tastes like ash' item they have, and attempt to craft it with a bloodburn poison item in order to figure out if the 'mash that tastes like failure' is actually not a failure.



If there are 12 different "herb" types/essences.., and you can't have unique crafts.

There are
12 different 1 item crafts.
132 different 2 item crafts.
1320 different 3 item crafts.
11880 different 4 item crafts.
95040 different 5 item crafts.

To check all 108384 possible crafts would take a long, long time.

[Brytta Léofa]

You can't expect players to take every 'mash that tastes like ash' item they have, and attempt to craft it with a bloodburn poison item in order to figure out if the 'mash that tastes like failure' is actually not a failure.

It's actually not that bad. Still a one-step check; it just needs you to have the natural poison item on hand (which is probably why you were crafting a poison mash anyway). Notwithstanding...

No tasting poison necessary (which sounds dangerous).

What about something like: "You recoil from the vile taste of ~." A little cartoony, but lets you know you got a Real Thing, as we currently do with cure mashes.

[Dresan]

You can't expect players to take every 'mash that tastes like ash' item they have, and attempt to craft it with a bloodburn poison item in order to figure out if the 'mash that tastes like failure' is actually not a failure.

It's actually not that bad. Still a one-step check; it just needs you to have the natural poison item on hand (which is probably why you were crafting a poison mash anyway). Notwithstanding...

I rather it be a bit more character skill based, with relevant information and clues be included in help files and documentation, rather than require a spreadsheet and repetative effort which will most likely encourage the information be spread oocly.

At some point with the cure system, I just preferred to have my character steal or buy basic cures because organizing all the herbs for cures got a bit tedious.

[Olafson]

Hey Mansa

Try assessing the mash.
This works if you have the poison skill, otherwise...you just can't tell.

Olafson

I think the question is...

How can I tell if I am successful in creating poison tablets, if I need to eat every 'ash' tablet I make to discover it?

[Brokkr]

I crafted the mash.  Let me combine with a poison I know is bloodburn.

Oh I can not craft it, it must not be bloodburn.
Or
Oh I can craft it, it must be a bloodburn mash.

No tasting poison necessary (which sounds dangerous).

You can't expect players to take every 'mash that tastes like ash' item they have, and attempt to craft it with a bloodburn poison item in order to figure out if the 'mash that tastes like failure' is actually not a failure.



If there are 12 different "herb" types/essences.., and you can't have unique crafts.

There are
12 different 1 item crafts.
132 different 2 item crafts.
1320 different 3 item crafts.
11880 different 4 item crafts.
95040 different 5 item crafts.

To check all 108384 possible crafts would take a long, long time.

Not sure I get your point.  If you can tell a mash tastes like beer and whiskey that does not tell you anything about whether it is a poison, without eating it or (newly) crafting into paste or the other thing.  Combinations are still the same.  Tastes are irrelevant if you do not know which ones make which poisons, and if you do, just use those taste herbs.

The only scenario that seems to match what you are saying is if you have an mash you know is a poison, somehow, and want to back into how to make it?  Not sure how you would get into that position.

[mansa]

The only scenario that seems to match what you are saying is if you have an mash you know is a poison, somehow, and want to back into how to make it?  Not sure how you would get into that position.

That's it exactly.

[Delirium]

The only scenario that seems to match what you are saying is if you have an mash you know is a poison, somehow, and want to back into how to make it?  Not sure how you would get into that position.

That's it exactly.

You can do this with cures by 'tasting' them but I'm not sure if there would be a safe way to do that with poisons...

You need a high poison and high brew skill to be certain of what you're making if you're dabbling in brewed poisons.

[Brokkr]

The only scenario that seems to match what you are saying is if you have an mash you know is a poison, somehow, and want to back into how to make it?  Not sure how you would get into that position.

That's it exactly.

Then in that limited scenario you would need poisoning, not just brew.

[Riev]

The only scenario that seems to match what you are saying is if you have an mash you know is a poison, somehow, and want to back into how to make it?  Not sure how you would get into that position.

That's it exactly.

Then in that limited scenario you would need poisoning, not just brew.

Alright. I feel like maybe I'm not explaining my position, or what I'm explaining isn't how it works.

I played a character with Master Poison and Master Brew.
When I brew a cure tablet, I can analyze it and it "tastes like flavors"
When I brew a poison tablet, it only tastes like ash.

This is inconsistent.
Are there plans to make the brew code consistent, or are you comfortable with Poisons and Cures not working the same way?

[Brokkr]

If one of the coders decides to change it to be consistent, that would be up to them.

I am approaching from Is there a playability issue I need to flag to them.

[Riev]

The play-ability issue is that the Brew context does not work consistently between the two main things Brew is used for.

Even if I know A, B, and C all combined into a poisoned mash, I can't verify that at a future date.
If D, E and F combine into a CURE mash, I can verify that any time I want, through the use of analyze.

Its not a Find Out IC issue. Its a "I already found out, but I have no way to determine what this item is after crafting it".

[Halaster]

Are there plans to make the brew code consistent, or are you comfortable with Poisons and Cures not working the same way?

Yes, I'll make poisons have some kind of way of telling vs the ash thing.

[ShaiHulud]

If it tastes like ash, it's probably as good as ash.

[Riev]

If it tastes like ash, it's probably as good as ash.

This was my concern. To me, it felt like "if you know what makes a poison, you're fine. If you don't, then good luck finding out"

[Miradus]

Are there plans to make the brew code consistent, or are you comfortable with Poisons and Cures not working the same way?

Yes, I'll make poisons have some kind of way of telling vs the ash thing.

In real life, plant based poisons have different tastes. Alkaloids are bitter, etc.

[Halaster]

Today's changes put potency values on cures.  They currently do nothing, but are in place for changes in the near future.

[Halaster]

With a previous update we added it so that liquid color is appended to vials.  "a small glass vial of blue liquid".
Oleupata then built new vials with various shapes, and these are now sold where the other vials are.
So you can now have:
   - a square glass vial of blue liquid
   - a square glass vial of red liquid
   - a glass vial of red liquid
etc.

[mansa]

re: potency

- First wave of advanced brewing put in place, for grishen only
        - Potency added - the primary determination is your brew skill, with a minor bonus from poisoning skill
        - You can assess items that are poisoned and get an idea of its strength based on your poisoning skill
        - You can assess items that are cures and get an idea of its strength based on your brew skill

Q. Does that mean you can eventually brew different potency cures or that cures start a 'full potency', and then degrade over time?

[Halaster]

Q. Does that mean you can eventually brew different potency cures or that cures start a 'full potency', and then degrade over time?

The potency will heavily depend on your brew skill.  But they'll start as 'full potency' (that you can make for your skill level) and then degrade over time.

[Agent_137]

Cures going to degrade? will poisons too even if not applied to a weapon? This just doesn't seem fun or rewarding to make cures and poisons so much harder to get and then also make them degrade.

What's the goal? You give a detailed spec https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58086.msg1078862.html#msg1078862 here, but your gameplay goals are not clear.

You say "make poisoning someone's food/drink a more viable option than today" and you imply that the highest potency poisons should more difficult to make than they are now. That's all great. But unless this degradation is over real life years (like with herbs), I don't see the value-add for us players. Seems like adding a grind.