Feedback on Idea Wanted: Rationalization of Existing Mundane Subclasses

[Riev]

How your spreadsheet isn't calling you out on "Alcohal" I'll never know, but... in relation to Mercenary:

I don't see what is so specific about a mercenary that they CAN'T have shield use. A mercenary is a for-hire soldier, and I don't see how advanced ride, dual wield, and knife crafting is Mercenary, but "a shield to protect themselves" isn't.

I agree that two other subclasses get shield use and it shouldn't be given across the board, but it feels like a combat oriented subclass without a defensive option.

[Brokkr]

Not looking at it in terms of defensive option, and there are combat subclasses that have no defensive skill.

Looking at it in terms of there being three combat styles, and a subguild only getting 1 enhanced combat style.  Remember all guilds get the combat styles, to some degree, so it isn't like a character will simply not have shield use.

[najdorf]

Ok just saw this post. Excellent! This will bring a huge balance to the mundane side of the force.

[wizturbo]

I like the stat boosts from subguild, and I like how you put strength exclusively on the combat focused subguilds.

My only recommendation would be to consider putting the wisdom bonus from crafting subguilds as +2 instead of +1, given the relatively lesser value wisdom has compared to Str/Agi/End.  Could always change this later if wisdom gets some more applications.

[mansa]

Physician should get clayworking (to make the different types of clay vials)
Jeweler should get higher forage, to find the diamonds in the rough.

Both ideas incorporated.

For my own spreadsheet of this, what proficiencies are you thinking of clayworking / forage.
Would you give custom crafting of clayworking to Physicians?

[mansa]

Something we have been discussing is slightly changing how stats are handled.  Part of this would be some small changes to the stats that Classes get, so that each class got two stat bumps, each to a different stat.  Currently most Classes are like this, but some give a double bump to a single stat, which is offset with a negative to another stat, so that the total net stat bump is the same across all the normal Classes.  This would change to something along potentially with some of the combinations, probably to something like:



We are discussing then combining this with a stat bump that each mundane subclass would give, something that might look like:



So folks would get two bumps from their guild, and one bump from their mundane subclass.

I've separated out the subclasses into my own categories:

Weapon Skills	Secondary Combat Skills	Exploration	Thievery	Perception & Languages	Crafting
Berserker	Archer	Bandit	Con Artist	Bard	Armormaker
Bruiser	Bounty Hunter	Grebber	Poisoner	Caravan Guide	Crafter
Lancer	Guard	Hunter	Rogue	House Servant	Custom Crafter
Pit Fighter	Marksman	Master Chef	Slipknife	Linguist	Forester
Reaver	Thug	Mercenary	Thief	Master Trader	Jeweler
Swordsman		Mountaineer			Physician
		Nomad			Tailor
		Outdoorsman			Weaponcrafter
		Outlaw
		Wastelander

I think the subclasses that get weapon skills or the SAP skill should have + to strength -> which would be:
Berserker, Bruiser, Lancer, Pit Fighter, Reaver, Swordsman, Bounty Hunter, and Thug.

I think the Crafting subclasses PLUS the subclasses in Perception & Languages should get + to wisdom -> which would be:
Bard, Caravan Guide, House Servant, Linguist, Master Trader, Armormaker, Crafter, Custom Crafter, Forester, Jeweler, Physician, Tailor, Weaponcrafter

I think the Exploration subclasses should have + to endurance -> which would be:
Bandit, Grebber, Hunter, Master Chef, Mercenary, Mountaineer, Nomad, Outdoorsman, Outlaw, Wastelander

I think the Thievery subclasses PLUS the leftover Secondary Combat Skills should get + to agility -> which would be:
Archer, Guard, Marksman, Con Artist, Poisoner, Rogue, Slipknife, Thief.


Guard getting Agility is a bit different - Brokkr has it getting Endurance. 
Poisoner getting Agility is a bit different - Brokkr has it getting Endurance.
Bard getting Wisdom is a bit different - Brokkr has it getting Agility.
Hunter getting Endurance is a bit different - Brokkr has it getting Agility.

[najdorf]

Something we have been discussing is slightly changing how stats are handled.  Part of this would be some small changes to the stats that Classes get, so that each class got two stat bumps, each to a different stat.  Currently most Classes are like this, but some give a double bump to a single stat, which is offset with a negative to another stat, so that the total net stat bump is the same across all the normal Classes.  This would change to something along potentially with some of the combinations, probably to something like:



We are discussing then combining this with a stat bump that each mundane subclass would give, something that might look like:



So folks would get two bumps from their guild, and one bump from their mundane subclass.

I've separated out the subclasses into my own categories:

Weapon Skills	Secondary Combat Skills	Exploration	Thievery	Perception & Languages	Crafting
Berserker	Archer	Bandit	Con Artist	Bard	Armormaker
Bruiser	Bounty Hunter	Grebber	Poisoner	Caravan Guide	Crafter
Lancer	Guard	Hunter	Rogue	House Servant	Custom Crafter
Pit Fighter	Marksman	Master Chef	Slipknife	Linguist	Forester
Reaver	Thug	Mercenary	Thief	Master Trader	Jeweler
Swordsman		Mountaineer			Physician
		Nomad			Tailor
		Outdoorsman			Weaponcrafter
		Outlaw
		Wastelander

I think the subclasses that get weapon skills or the SAP skill should have + to strength -> which would be:
Berserker, Bruiser, Lancer, Pit Fighter, Reaver, Swordsman, Bounty Hunter, and Thug.

I think the Crafting subclasses PLUS the subclasses in Perception & Languages should get + to wisdom -> which would be:
Bard, Caravan Guide, House Servant, Linguist, Master Trader, Armormaker, Crafter, Custom Crafter, Forester, Jeweler, Physician, Tailor, Weaponcrafter

I think the Exploration subclasses should have + to endurance -> which would be:
Bandit, Grebber, Hunter, Master Chef, Mercenary, Mountaineer, Nomad, Outdoorsman, Outlaw, Wastelander

I think the Thievery subclasses PLUS the leftover Secondary Combat Skills should get + to agility -> which would be:
Archer, Guard, Marksman, Con Artist, Poisoner, Rogue, Slipknife, Thief.


Guard getting Agility is a bit different - Brokkr has it getting Endurance. 
Poisoner getting Agility is a bit different - Brokkr has it getting Endurance.
Bard getting Wisdom is a bit different - Brokkr has it getting Agility.
Hunter getting Endurance is a bit different - Brokkr has it getting Agility.

Yes, yes, yes. People should think twice before going magicker. These additional stat bonuses for subclasses would be amazing.

[RheaGhe]

If these are implemented, would we be able to app for the skills and buffs to stats, or would characters currently with these subguilds just be SOL?

[Halaster]

If these are implemented, would we be able to app for the skills and buffs to stats, or would characters currently with these subguilds just be SOL?

If you had a subguild that gained new skills, they would automatically show up.  Either through failing a skill it branches from (if it branches), or next time you logged in.

For stats, we probably wouldn't adjust any existing players unless they were willing to also adjust stats for their main guild.  Currently all main guilds get +2 to stats somewhere.  It might be +1 agil +1 end, or it may be +2 to str, or it could even be something like +2 str +1 agil, -1 wis.  But it all evens out to +2.  Brokkr's proposal would be to adjust some of the main guilds so that no one gets +2 in a stat.  So Fighter, for example, might change from +2 str to being +1 str +1 agil.  And then mundane subguilds get another + to a stat making +3 total.  So if we were to adjust people to add the subguild bonus, then we'd have to adjust the main guild too.  It's a bit too early to say what we'll do for sure, this is just explaining the considerations.

[Brokkr]

Physician should get clayworking (to make the different types of clay vials)
Jeweler should get higher forage, to find the diamonds in the rough.

Both ideas incorporated.

For my own spreadsheet of this, what proficiencies are you thinking of clayworking / forage.
Would you give custom crafting of clayworking to Physicians?

Right now I have it at advanced for both.  Physician already has 3 master level crafting skills.  Meanwhile, Crafter subclass is the only one currently with master level clayworking.  But it is a really weak subclass if it doesn't have the uniqueness of off skills that you can't CC otherwise with a subclass, currently basketweaving, stoneworking and clayworking.

[Lotion]

I like the stat boosts from subguild, and I like how you put strength exclusively on the combat focused subguilds.

My only recommendation would be to consider putting the wisdom bonus from crafting subguilds as +2 instead of +1, given the relatively lesser value wisdom has compared to Str/Agi/End.  Could always change this later if wisdom gets some more applications.

I would abuse this on combat characters, wisdom is OP

[Lotion]

cavilish on caravan guide is so nice. would be cool to give it wild scan/hunt flags and maybe hide. useless on their own but very nice when supporting various other main guilds also good to include cavilish more places

Kind of hard for me to evaluate feedback like this unless you mention what you are comparing it to.  Lots of subclasses would benefit from more skills.  What is lacking here, or what is it too close to, or how did you evaluate that those skills would be needed?  I'm sort of lost on how to take some of the feedback that seems stream of conciousness like this.

I meant it would be useful, interesting, and also not overpowered to give caravan guide the wildnerness hunt flat. Without an external source of the hunt skill it would not give any benefit.

[Brokkr]

Guard getting Agility is a bit different - Brokkr has it getting Endurance. 
Poisoner getting Agility is a bit different - Brokkr has it getting Endurance.
Bard getting Wisdom is a bit different - Brokkr has it getting Agility.
Hunter getting Endurance is a bit different - Brokkr has it getting Agility.

My thought process was similar to your rubric.  As for the differences in your logic vs mine...

Guards are guarding people.  Used to taking punishment.  HPs are important for a guard.
Poisoner, not sure how that got in your thief category, with them not having any theft/stealth skills.  Their main skill is poisoning, which they fail, so endurance is important thematically to survive that.
Bard isn't perception in how I oriented things because I didn't have a perception category.  They do have sleight of hand and steal, so I was putting them into the thief category, thus agility.
Hunter could go either way.  They don't get climb/or outdoor sneak which would benefit from endurance.  They do have archery and skinning though, which are the core of the concept.

[Brokkr]

Considering replacing Con Artist skill scan with flee, at the suggestion of another Staff member.

[DesertT]

Considering replacing Con Artist skill scan with flee, at the suggestion of another Staff member.

I like Scan for con artist, although having it only go to Advanced... maybe Flee would be better.  If it went to Advanced.

[mansa]

Considering replacing Con Artist skill scan with flee, at the suggestion of another Staff member.

To me, if a class/subclass has HIDE, it should get SCAN.   Much like if a class gets STEAL, it should also get PEEK.

Nothing sucks more having master hide, and being unable to spot anybody else hiding, even though you're an expert at it.  That was the worst part of playing a burglar class.

[Brokkr]

You just got me to wondering how someone can be hiding and scanning at the same time.  Like, even if you aren't hiding behind some table with your view obscured, aren't you looking all over the place and thus drawing attention to yourself?

This seems to be like one of those personal preferences of play issues.  It doesn't really impact your hiding, that you can't see other folks that are hiding.  It is just kind of your personal preference to be able to do so.

At this point I think we are getting fairly close to locking things in, hopefully.

[Armaddict]

To me, if a class/subclass has HIDE, it should get SCAN.   Much like if a class gets STEAL, it should also get PEEK.

Nothing sucks more having master hide, and being unable to spot anybody else hiding, even though you're an expert at it.  That was the worst part of playing a burglar class.

As someone who loved playing burglars, not sure I agree.  My burglars were great at using watch, like a spy, an observer, not at finding hidden targets.  That being said, I could use planning and observation to know what places they were likely to be visible if I needed them to be.

I don't agree that scan and hide have the same relationship as steal and peek.  Likewise, scan doesn't have the same usefulness of peek at lower levels; peek can fail a lot, but it doesn't cost you anything.  Scan really only becomes 'useful' at levels high enough that it works, and when you spread that out in accessibility too much it makes stealth unusable for non-pvp settings.

Ironically, you're basically pushing to hurt the people who -aren't- using hide to jump you, and are instead looking to linger and watch, by negating hide.

[DesertT]

You just got me to wondering how someone can be hiding and scanning at the same time.  Like, even if you aren't hiding behind some table with your view obscured, aren't you looking all over the place and thus drawing attention to yourself?

This seems to be like one of those personal preferences of play issues.  It doesn't really impact your hiding, that you can't see other folks that are hiding.  It is just kind of your personal preference to be able to do so.

At this point I think we are getting fairly close to locking things in, hopefully.

I don't know that it's a matter of hiding and scanning at the same time, but rather, since you're sooo good at hiding, you know what to look for when others are trying to hide or seem less conspicuous.

[SpyGuy]

Or they're hiding behind that couch with you

[Pariah]

You just got me to wondering how someone can be hiding and scanning at the same time.  Like, even if you aren't hiding behind some table with your view obscured, aren't you looking all over the place and thus drawing attention to yourself?

This seems to be like one of those personal preferences of play issues.  It doesn't really impact your hiding, that you can't see other folks that are hiding.  It is just kind of your personal preference to be able to do so.

At this point I think we are getting fairly close to locking things in, hopefully.

I don't know that it's a matter of hiding and scanning at the same time, but rather, since you're sooo good at hiding, you know what to look for when others are trying to hide or seem less conspicuous.

This sentiment exactly.  I'm very good at pool for instance in real life.  I can watch someone play pool and simply know they are decent or a beginner by the knowledge I possess.  I don't need to have the same level of knowledge of pool as a TV reporter who has covered the sport for twenty years to at least get that much.

How the code works is you could be a MASTER at hiding, but can't seem to even have a chance of seeing another master without scan.

While I think it's good to have scan and all that, there should be some measure of the calculation for success based on your own skill at hiding and knowing the best practices and so on.

[Lotion]

You just got me to wondering how someone can be hiding and scanning at the same time.  Like, even if you aren't hiding behind some table with your view obscured, aren't you looking all over the place and thus drawing attention to yourself?

This seems to be like one of those personal preferences of play issues.  It doesn't really impact your hiding, that you can't see other folks that are hiding.  It is just kind of your personal preference to be able to do so.

At this point I think we are getting fairly close to locking things in, hopefully.

It is possible to scan discreetly. Hide is not nobody can see you, it's that nobody notices you. They might see you but you blend in and aren't worth really paying attention to.

[wizturbo]

I honestly think that hide code should be similar to brew and poison's synergies.  Someone who has Master scan + Hide should be able to see more hidden people than just a master at scan alone.

[mansa]

Now, here's the thought I just had.

I keep thinking of these subclasses as complete "mini-classes" with no optional skills.   They are complete units by themselves.   Perhaps con-artists shouldn't have scan, but flee is better for the character trope.

[wizturbo]

Would be interesting to be able to pick 3 subclasses instead of having a main + subguild.  Choose your own class.