Feedback on Idea Wanted: Rationalization of Existing Mundane Subclasses

[mansa]

Personally, I think there may be too many in this category already.

Out to all the wilderness classes you listed, the winner for best wilderness class in my books is master chef, and physician would be a close second if it had direction sense.

Honorable mentioned to mountaineer because it does look pretty good. I based survivalist idea off of it, just without ride and climb.

You know, you're right about master chef fitting into my 'exploration' category.  I had master cheft in my 'crafting' category simply because it has "can custom craft" as a perk currently.

[Agent_137]

physician's advanced brew is... limited compared to advanced brew on the main guilds. If physician is getting stuck with advanced instead of master, please bump it a little to match.

I like the subguilds being re-thought and balanced, but in a game where you can play raider/sorc I really hope these mundane subguilds remain powerful and interesting. It's not like the extended subguilds are overpowered now. It's just that the 0 karma ones are crap compared. So lift the 0 karma subguilds up, don't bring the extended subguilds down.

[Brokkr]

cast 'mon un nilaz morz inrof' subclass.thread

Necro'ing this thread, as I have gotten back to this.

To recap last episode:

• Make all mundane subclasses 0 Karma.
• In cases of duplicate or near duplicate subclasses, 0 karma subclass survives.
• Surviving subclasses have all the skills that dead extended subclass had.
• Dead extended subclasses don't get deleted, just made inactive in character generation.
• Skills new to surviving 0 karma subclasses typically made branchable, so that players can branch with a failure, rather than needing stuff to add a skill.

What does this look like, in terms of which subclasses would remain?  Like this!



What skills would mundane subclasses get, and to what levels?  Whelp...


      



      



      



      


In addition to what you can see here, intending to try to get the minimum starting level for most subclass skills to a level where they would be above, and thus provide benefit to, any class.  One way would be to look at the highest starting skill level any guild gets a skill at, and add a handful of points and start there.  A different way, which is how I have it set up in my spreadsheets now, would be to start all skills at Journeyman or higher skill level.  This would be in general give starting levels equal to or higher than the first method.

[Patuk]

Yes, please. This can't come soon enough imo

[Krath]

I do not enjoy the next statement I'm going to say....Excellent Job Brokkr 

[mansa]

Feedback:

Why outdoorsman vs hunter?  I feel they are too similar in style.  The previous version had hunter replace outdoorsman.  The questionable skill was 'hide'.
Archer vs Marksman -> Previously, Archer was set to replace Marksman, but it wouldn't allow a subclass to get sling-use or blowguns.  This change to bring it back also brings back those two skills to a subclass.

Berserker doesn't branch any of their skills?  (they currently do)
Bruiser doesn't branch any of their skills?  (they currently do)
Lancer doesn't branch any of their skills?  (they currently do)
Rogue doesn't branch any of their skills?  (they currently do)
Marksman doesn't branch any of their skills? (they currently do)

[LetaSpringle]

If you make a change and an existing character has a legacy sub that is more limited than its replacement, will they be allowed to have the replacement skillset on that existing character? If so, can they have it, with whatever skills they've already improved on, remaining improved?

[Lotion]

bard gets scan,which scan flags does bard get?

please make the crafting based branches be very low. having to increase a skill to 10 below the cap at master is very saddening

thief gets scan, which scan flags does thief get?

hunter looks way overtuned. hopefully that master skinning is scout's cap rather than stalker

edit:
big fan of advanced bash on pit fighter, previously only source of that was from elkrosian touched. i think giving pit fighter low jman parry would be nice to help with the playability of guild adventurer

house servant gets scan, which scan flags does it get?

HOLY CRAP MASTER SAP ON A SUBGUILD FROM BOUNTY HUNTER? i am going to abuse this

cavilish on caravan guide is so nice. would be cool to give it wild scan/hunt flags and maybe hide. useless on their own but very nice when supporting various other main guilds also good to include cavilish more places

con artists gets scan, which scan flags? (it's starting to feel like scan flags and stealth flags are one in the same and we've never been told, but that doesn't track with the info on the drov touched subguild which gives stealth flags but not scan flags)

master ride on nomad? i'm going to abuse this

wastelander scan, which one?

WOW you're really just handing out master ride and wilderness quit. full guild mages are going to love this

stalker mv regen on mountaineer??? with wild quit AND food forage? this subguild is bonkers.

outlaw looks like a pretty bad/funny guild but i think with specific combinations it can work

i'm glad poisoner sub exists, previously only slipknife and drovtouched got it. also including brew means it'll be nice on artisan. worried people might be able to sniff artisan physician vs artisan poisoner based on the bandage skills even if they try to keep the poison abilities secret

advanced blowgun on a subguild with advanced poisoning (with a cap high enough to identify poisons, i hope)? slipknife looks really good.

grebber looks mostly overshined by mountaineer but i'm sure people will like it

some of the newer wilderness subs also outshine outdoorsman by a lot. its main "flaw" was that it didn't have ride.

starting with max drawing on custom crafter is very funny. makes a pathetic and mostly vestigial subguild even more meme worthy

master trader is cute, probably overshined by other things. i think stalker/master trader could be cute

rouge gets scan but which flags?

marksman and archer are too similar, pls merge

seeing the higher caps on various skills it would be neat to see touched subguilds also get higher skillcaps on certain skills which require higher levels to feel useful (or even usable)
rukkian jman -> adv climb
whiran jman -> adv both listens (i think leaving scan at jman is fine because it's almost always put on a main guild which has scan anyway)

[wizturbo]

Would consider giving Guard scan and/or listen.  A bodyguard that can't detect threats coming and/or listen to conversations while they're standing sentinel feels like it's missing something.

[Brokkr]

Feedback:

Why outdoorsman vs hunter?  I feel they are too similar in style.  The previous version had hunter replace outdoorsman.  The questionable skill was 'hide'.
Archer vs Marksman -> Previously, Archer was set to replace Marksman, but it wouldn't allow a subclass to get sling-use or blowguns.  This change to bring it back also brings back those two skills to a subclass.

Berserker doesn't branch any of their skills?  (they currently do)
Bruiser doesn't branch any of their skills?  (they currently do)
Lancer doesn't branch any of their skills?  (they currently do)
Rogue doesn't branch any of their skills?  (they currently do)
Marksman doesn't branch any of their skills? (they currently do)

Hunter v Outdoorsman - Elves.  Hunter is oriented towards hunters that want ride.  Outdoorsman towards folks that want sneak and/or wilderness quit.
Archer v Marksman - It was easier to leave it as is with Marksman having all the ranged skills than either squishing it all into Archer or spreading it out.
Berserker - Marksman branching - My oversight, branching would remain as is. Was more focused on the 0K new branching. Former extended subclass branching would be the same as it is now.

[Brokkr]

If you make a change and an existing character has a legacy sub that is more limited than its replacement, will they be allowed to have the replacement skillset on that existing character? If so, can they have it, with whatever skills they've already improved on, remaining improved?

Part of the trickiness in all this is I tried to incorporate feedback from last round to make it so if you have a subclass that is going away, lets say Minstrel, if you want Staff can set your subclass to Bard and it should work without hiccups.

[Brokkr]

bard gets scan,which scan flags does bard get?

Neither.  There is no such thing as a scan ability that differentiates its use in different environments.

please make the crafting based branches be very low. having to increase a skill to 10 below the cap at master is very saddening

If they start the crafting skill above what even an Artisan starts it at, it isn't that many fails to branch really.

cavilish on caravan guide is so nice. would be cool to give it wild scan/hunt flags and maybe hide. useless on their own but very nice when supporting various other main guilds also good to include cavilish more places

Kind of hard for me to evaluate feedback like this unless you mention what you are comparing it to.  Lots of subclasses would benefit from more skills.  What is lacking here, or what is it too close to, or how did you evaluate that those skills would be needed?  I'm sort of lost on how to take some of the feedback that seems stream of conciousness like this.

seeing the higher caps on various skills it would be neat to see touched subguilds also get higher skillcaps on certain skills which require higher levels to feel useful (or even usable)

While I understand some people choose Touched just for the skills and abilities, they do also have the spells (even if you never use them for that).  So on the whole they seem about right.

I'll try to come back and re-read the rest of your comments tomorrow.  Not tracking on them all very well right now.

[mansa]

In my opinion, everything seems okay with the exception of these:

Physician should get clayworking (to make the different types of clay vials)
Jeweler should get higher forage, to find the diamonds in the rough.

(Mostly because those two classes are the only classes that feel like they are lacking something)

[wizturbo]

I think linguist should get either Bendune and Cavilish, or should be reframed into a new subguild that has allundean and mirukkim along with some other skills.  It doesn't seem fair that Caravan guide gets two (arguably more useful) languages + great skills whereas Linguist gets nothing.

[roughneck]

Hunter v Outdoorsman - Elves.  Hunter is oriented towards hunters that want ride.  Outdoorsman towards folks that want sneak and/or wilderness quit.

Outdoorsman gets wilderness quit!? I had no idea.


*edit* Didn't read back to Brokkr's original post, so didn't know what was going on. Love this idea and the subs look great!

[Halaster]

If you make a change and an existing character has a legacy sub that is more limited than its replacement, will they be allowed to have the replacement skillset on that existing character? If so, can they have it, with whatever skills they've already improved on, remaining improved?

TBD, it depends on how this settles out and what the end result is going to look like before we can decide that.

[MarshallDFX]

Is it possible to share the excel version of Brokkr's post  If this goes ahead I'll want to modify/improve my class picking tool.

(As an aside I wish we published caps with numbers, or more specificity to avoid all this "high advanced/low advanced speculating)

[Krath]

My Thoughts:

Get rid of Wastelander, It is redundant with Nomad, Grebber. Outdoorman, and Mountaineer

[Brokkr]

Physician should get clayworking (to make the different types of clay vials)
Jeweler should get higher forage, to find the diamonds in the rough.

Both ideas incorporated.

[Brokkr]

I think linguist should get either Bendune and Cavilish, or should be reframed into a new subguild that has allundean and mirukkim along with some other skills.  It doesn't seem fair that Caravan guide gets two (arguably more useful) languages + great skills whereas Linguist gets nothing.

Hmmm, true. I'll have to touch base and see what other Staff think.  We might have some room to make it more desireable in terms of accents, as well.

[Brokkr]

My Thoughts:

Get rid of Wastelander, It is redundant with Nomad, Grebber. Outdoorman, and Mountaineer

I get why you say that.  It is the only one that has ride, outdoor quit, scan and bendune.  So means as a compliment to Nomad for nomadic folks, depending on which skillset is important.  Part of the issue is probably folks seem to want ride/direction sense on most outdoor type subclasses, so stuff does start to look a bit the same from the outset.

[Brokkr]

Something we have been discussing is slightly changing how stats are handled.  Part of this would be some small changes to the stats that Classes get, so that each class got two stat bumps, each to a different stat.  Currently most Classes are like this, but some give a double bump to a single stat, which is offset with a negative to another stat, so that the total net stat bump is the same across all the normal Classes.  This would change to something along potentially with some of the combinations, probably to something like:



We are discussing then combining this with a stat bump that each mundane subclass would give, something that might look like:



So folks would get two bumps from their guild, and one bump from their mundane subclass.

[Inks]

I approve of mundane subs giving stat bumps unless they are full witches. Looking good, Brokkr.

Also don't get rid of Wastelander. It gives master scan which is amazing for mundane warriors and even any city based class.

[roughneck]

Give mercenary some scout/infiltrator level shield use.

[Brokkr]

Give mercenary some scout/infiltrator level shield use.

Guard and Reaver already have that.  Would not give Mercenary both dual wield and shield use at those levels, so it seems really personal playstyle preference rather than anything thematic to Mercenary?