Feedback on Idea Wanted: Rationalization of Existing Mundane Subclasses

[Nao]

Just a sidenote - Journeyman throw can still be pretty good and reliable. I've used it many times and I would miss it.

[Fredd]

Just a sidenote - Journeyman throw can still be pretty good and reliable. I've used it many times and I would miss it.

with a high enough agility roll, i guess it would be.

it wouldn't be the only sub with 7 skills (rogue) why not give it c hunt at adv or j.man and let it keep throw?

[X-D]

Not agility.

[Miradus]

That makes sense. AFAIK no subclass has C.hunt. And it would be great to be able to get it there.

It looks like it would fit rogue but... That'de make rogue to OP, imho.

Bounty hunter has city and wild hunt.

[Fredd]

Not agility.

Oh yeah. Duh. it's early.

That makes sense. AFAIK no subclass has C.hunt. And it would be great to be able to get it there.

It looks like it would fit rogue but... That'de make rogue to OP, imho.

Bounty hunter has city and wild hunt.

Thank you for pointing that out. I missed it.

[Ama]

I think this is overall a really positive change because it'll free up options previously barred for new players. These are the lifeblood to any game, and making positive changes towards opening the doors and being inclusive really rocks. I'm especially excited to see updates to things like Master Chef and Roughrider, seflishly, since each would appeal to me and my character choices.

The only thing I might be remiss about would be the possible loss of customcrafter, because I had a adventurer/custom crafter concept that really rocked. I don't have time to disseminate each and every skill change or go through the whole thread, but overall,  I like it and wanted to say I like it a lot.

[Fredd]

After thinking on it.

it would still be nice to have c. hunt on a stealy subclass. (bounty hunter not being this obv.)

Yeah I know I'm beating this inix pretty hard. but I don't think it's dead yet.

[betweenford]

Grebber

[Fredd]

Grebber

Has absolutely no stealing abilities.

[Brokkr]

I have gone through all the comments up until this point and they have been considered for incorporation.  Not everything has been incorporated, but a number of suggestions, or at least the reasoning behind them, has been.

Looking for suggestions on individual subclasses now.  Please keep in mind these suggestions should conform to the following:

• All zero karma subclasses need to keep all existing skills.
• Maximum of seven skills per subclass.  If you make a suggestion that would make it go over, you need to suggest what would be removed, keeping the above point in mind.
• There are certain Abilities that will remain limited on subclasses, like the ability to quit in the wilderness or regenerate moves at a higher rate.

I have tried to indicate changes since the last versions by making the text red.  At this point "Mastery" subclasses were pulled off the table, due to very mixed to negative feedback.  Custom Crafter is a question mark, it will probably remain.

In the past, 0 karma subclasses did not have branching, but many Extended Subclasses did have branching.  I have not included branching as I would like to firm up the skill list first.  Most (although not all, e.g. Linguist) subclasses will likely get branching.  Fortunately putting in branching will not create problems with characters already in the game.  If you want to suggest branching paths, feel free.

On subclass changes, I need to talk to other Staff, but I've come around to considering allowing it if it is a change to the remaining subclass if requested.  Meaning Marksman could only change to Archer, Outdoorsman only change to Hunter, etc.  Skills would both be added and removed as befits the new subclass, you would not get to retain skills that were only on the old Extended Subclass.  Thus it is a choice to be made with this in mind.

                                                     





Apologies in advance for any errors, getting it into a format for players to view is a bit manual.
Imgur locations for folks that find it easier to view there:

https://imgur.com/a/rpn0Yox
https://imgur.com/a/7bcsQJA
https://imgur.com/a/p3oDh9i

[MeTekillot]

Can I make a suggestion for an elf-only bounty hunter that swaps ride for med+ move regen?

[Armaddict]

A random thought...but what if we removed karma from extended subs, but removed them from chargen?  What if our current 0-karma subclasses evolved into the extended subclasses?  Some sort of system where the extended subclass -was- the 'branch' of the current 0 karma ones?

I'll go over the individual classes later on today, but reading over your last post (Brokkr) made me think of the whole branching concept, plus the karma-requirement for extended subs rubbing people the wrong way, plus the power 'out of the gate' of some of the subclasses.  Or is that all too much codework/restructuring in the first place?

[mansa]

At first glance, without indepth observations:

Slipknife with blowgun use.  Could be overpowered. 
Poisoner with blowgun use.  Could be overpowered.

I still don't like the skillset that Crafter has.   I think it could do a bit better to be more interesting for players.
Master Potter - I'm still on the fence whether it should exist at all or not.

Con Artist with Peek - yay
Swordsman with disarm and two handed - very nice.
Grebber with Sling Use - nice
Archer getting Crossbow Use at master - nice
Fletchery to Weapon Crafter - Yay
Leatherworking to Tailor - Yay
Bard getting low level steal - Yay

House Servant's Pilot skill should be Master, in my opinion.  Same with Caravan Guide.    I don't think it should be limited to advanced.  Having it at master means you won't ever make a mistake, where you make a mistake pretty often at journeyman/advanced.


Everything seems good.  9/10.

[Brokkr]

No way to do, nor would we really want to, race specific subclasses.

[Brokkr]

At first glance, without indepth observations:

Slipknife with blowgun use.  Could be overpowered. 
Poisoner with blowgun use.  Could be overpowered.

Slipknife already gets throw and backstab to deliver poisons with, this is just another method.
Poisoner doesn't get hide.

I still don't like the skillset that Crafter has.   I think it could do a bit better to be more interesting for players.
Master Potter - I'm still on the fence whether it should exist at all or not.

Please note the limitations.  Crafter already has 7 skills.  It is what it is.
To be great with clayworking you pretty much need dyeing, and Crafter already has 7 skills.

House Servant's Pilot skill should be Master, in my opinion.  Same with Caravan Guide.    I don't think it should be limited to advanced.  Having it at master means you won't ever make a mistake, where you make a mistake pretty often at journeyman/advanced.

That is one of the mistakes I warned might exist.  On my docs I had changed House Servant pilot to master, but forgot to copy it over.  Ditto Caravan Guide.

[betweenford]

The grebber sling-use thing feels kinda outta nowhere, neat as it might be. choosing that over some other grebbing-oriented skill like cooking or ljacking or like... bandage or something it just feels odd.

[Brokkr]

The grebber sling-use thing feels kinda outta nowhere, neat as it might be. choosing that over some other grebbing-oriented skill like cooking or ljacking or like... bandage or something it just feels odd.

It was asked that sling use be included somewhere.  This was the best fit.

Grebbers don't need fletchery to make sling stones, as if they forage a lot, they will no doubt find lots of naturally occuring sling stones, thus the synergy.  Cooking, lumberjacking and bandage would seem to make much less sense than someone figured out a simple use for all these stones they were grebbing anyways?

[Fredd]

Thief looks solid. You can slap that onto any main class, and be able to rely on it's abilities in the city to steal from npc's, and then pc's at the top end of your abilities.

Poisoner looks awesome. But my note: No one is going to let someone with jman skinning, skin anything they want the poison from. With most things having advanced skills, why not push it up to adv.  So it's reliable?

[mansa]

I still don't like the skillset that Crafter has.   I think it could do a bit better to be more interesting for players.
Master Potter - I'm still on the fence whether it should exist at all or not.

Please note the limitations.  Crafter already has 7 skills.  It is what it is.
To be great with clayworking you pretty much need dyeing, and Crafter already has 7 skills.

For reference:

Subclass Name:	Skill:	Proficiency:
Crafter	Forage	Advanced
	Value	Advanced
	Basketweaving	Master
	Clayworking	Master
	Club Making	Master
	Stonecrafting	Master
	Toolmaking	Master
Master Potter	Forage	Master
	Haggle	Advanced
	Value	Advanced
	Dyeing	Master
	Clayworking	Master
	Toolmaking	Master
	Pain Tolerance Perk
Jeweler	Haggle	Advanced
	Value	Advanced
	Feather Working	Advanced
	Jewelrymaking	Master
	Stonecrafting	Advanced
	Toolmaking	Advanced

I have changed my mind.   Master Crafter, Crafter, and Master Potter could all be combined into this:

Master Potter	Forage	Master
	Haggle	Advanced
	Value	Advanced
	Dyeing	Master
	Clayworking	Master
	Toolmaking	Master
	Stonecrafting	Advanced

"Crafter" and "Master Crafter" doesn't seem to fit anywhere as a theme.  It just is a random combination of limited crafting skills.  It used to be picked because it was one of the few that got Toolmaking, but that has now changed.
Basketmaking & Clubmaking are, in my opinion, some of the worst crafting skills you can possibly get, because they don't have high-end expensive crafts that are worth anything to sell to people.   I suggest that since it doesn't make sense as a thematic choice, and shouldn't be offered at all.  It will be one more confusing option for new players to choice from.

I suggest to strike crafter out, and give Stonecrafting at advanced to Master Potters. 

[mansa]

Thief looks solid. You can slap that onto any main class, and be able to rely on it's abilities in the city to steal from npc's, and then pc's at the top end of your abilities.

Poisoner looks awesome. But my note: No one is going to let someone with jman skinning, skin anything they want the poison from. With most things having advanced skills, why not push it up to adv.  So it's reliable?

I think one of the upcoming changes to poison is that you can brew it, so that would be the primary source of poisons.  It would be a reduction of the need to get it from certain beasts only.

[Fredd]

I would like to know why potters get pain tolerance.

[betweenford]

I would like to know why potters get pain tolerance.

THE KILN IS HOT

...or something idk

[Fredd]

Thief looks solid. You can slap that onto any main class, and be able to rely on it's abilities in the city to steal from npc's, and then pc's at the top end of your abilities.

Poisoner looks awesome. But my note: No one is going to let someone with jman skinning, skin anything they want the poison from. With most things having advanced skills, why not push it up to adv.  So it's reliable?

I think one of the upcoming changes to poison is that you can brew it, so that would be the primary source of poisons.  It would be a reduction of the need to get it from certain beasts only.

Valid. but we may start with a base poison, and make it stronger from there. If that is the case, then skinning will still be very important.

[Brokkr]

Poisoner looks awesome. But my note: No one is going to let someone with jman skinning, skin anything they want the poison from. With most things having advanced skills, why not push it up to adv.  So it's reliable?

You could be out there killing the thing yourself, not skinning someone else's kill?  And it plays into knowing a little about anatomy, to know where the poison is from to do [redacted all the stuff that might change with poisons].

[Brokkr]

I would like to know why potters get pain tolerance.

THE KILN IS HOT

...or something idk

Pretty much the reasoning someone on Staff gave for adding it.