Feedback on Idea Wanted: Karma Boosted Class or Subclass

[Brokkr]

There is an idea we have been discussing as Staff that I would like to get player feedback on.  As always, we critique and offer our differing viewpoints and have reached a point where having community feedback would be helpful.

The original idea was to create two subclasses per main class.  Lets say we have class Fighter, so we would create Fighter K1 and Fighter K2.  These subclasses could only be chosen by class fighter.  The subclass skill list would be exactly the same as the Fighter class skill list, except a number of starting values would be increased.  The increase would tend to be associate with the focus of the class, in terms of which skills were boosted.  This would potentially replace skill bumps or be used for roles that get increased skills, although perhaps not.  It would be spendable karma that would be used.  The amount of increase is still being looked at, but when I mocked it up, K1 was around 7-10X the number of skill points that a skill bump could provide, and K2 was well over 10X.

In this setup, beyond the karma cost there would also be the cost to the character of loosing their subclass.  It also means that this would be mundane only.  The main counter-proposal was that this could be done at the class level rather than the subclass level.  So you would have class Fighter K1 and class Fighter K2, and they would start with the boosted starting level for a number of skills.  The argument for this was generally to make the cost only the karma cost and so that these characters were not permanently impacted by a loss of subclass vs a normal character.  Another idea was to make this available only via special application.  Another was to make the karma spent additive to racial karma, so a half-giant could only choose a K1 class/subclass (at a cost of 3 karma) and a mul could not choose one at all.

We are looking for your feedback on this between the approaches, both from the perspective of being able to choose a class/subclass with such boosts as a player, but also your perspective on playing a character without such boosts, potentially in competition with such a character as you start the game.  Your feedback on some of the other perspectives raised in the previous paragraph would be great as well, and of course anything you think of yourself.  One of my concerns with the cost only being karma is that we would just be setting a new defacto bar, and players would not play unless they could play a karma boosted class and would do so every single character (thus my original proposal being subclass, which cost the character something as well as karma).

Some things are already ruled out.  You can discuss them, but we aren't going to be doing that.

• A different form of additional "currency" for boosts, like time accruing points everyone gets.
• Any sort of point buy or other system where you choose what is boosted.  Ideas have to be generally within current code confines.
• Being able to choose boosted class and a mage subclass.  This would only be for mundane characters (thus touching on another point of player feedback beyond just the Grind).

[Riev]

Like a skill-boost special app, without the special app. An interesting idea.

Starting "boosted" from your main class could be interesting. I find MOST boosts people want are for combat and things that take a lot of grinding.

I wouldn't want it available via special app, as thats part of what a special application SHOULD BE. Special, manually setting skills or denying them. Something that alters the character sheet.
This method seems to reduce the staff load on doing that, and making the decisions.

I'm on the fence about allowing HGs and Muls to start with the boosted skills. Nobody likes the grind, but you're also playing a 'stronger' PC by virtue of what you chose.

[mansa]

Let me see if I can understand the ideas presented:

Problem to Solve:
"Skill Grind" player complaint
"Manual Staff Intervention with Special App / Skill Setting" staff workload


Solutions:
Start characters at a higher skill proficiency
Code this, so no continual staff workload


Questions:
Who currently gets access to a "skill boost"?  https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Skill%20Bumps - using a special application
Who will get access to this new "skill boost"?  As an automated system - the game currently has "spendable karma" so we can use that.
Who is left out?  People with 0 karma
Can people with 0 karma CURRENTLY use a special application to get a skill boost?  Yes.
Can people with 0 karma use a special application to get access to karma classes/subclasses? Yes.   This new automated system can solve for a certain percentage of the players, and for those without karma they can go back to the existing ways of handling things.  This will automate and reduce workload for anyone with karma.


Finer Details:
Should it be a separate karma Subclass?
Bad - You can't choose crafting skills (or other skills) to 'flesh out' your existing skillsets.
Bad - You can't choose a mage subclass.   This is decided to be 'not an option' for designing it.




Okay, this is what I'm thinking:

It should be a karma class.  You should force everyone taking that class to choose the 'none' subclass.

[sucre]

Was I misreading that subclasses would not be available for boosted characters? It seemed a little unclear when I perused that particular section twice.

[Brokkr]

If we went with the boosts being in a subclass.  If we went with boosts being in a class, that would allow subclasses, except for mages.

While I am here, the way I have it mocked up currently, K1 only gets boosts to unbranched skills.  If the boost at K2 branches a skill, the branched skill also gets boosted.  It does not need to be that way, potentially could set up boosts on unbranched skills as well, so when they get branched they have a higher starting level.  Something else to discuss I guess.

[Halcyon]

I like the idea. 

I would suggest that no boosted guild be allowed to be selected with any karma races.   All three karma races are already good enough without help.

Would anyone play "boosted" other than Miscreant, Raider, Scout, Dune Trader or Artisan?   I ask because playing without skinning, direction sense, forage and several other utilities is Arm on hardmode.

Could we get primary guild mages back, if we could play them without subguilds?

[Brokkr]

Everyone gets forage.

I know it is sometimes hard to conceptualize without being able to visualize.  Here is a mock-up for Fighter.

[Fawcett]

This would be great, especially if you can still pick a mundane subguild to compliment it.

Though it's worth mentioning that you'd get alot more powerful characters in the gameworld, assuming that most active players are already 1-2 karma.

In my opinion, I'm completely fine with that. It might make people less apprehensive to lose the totally epic skills they twinked up over a few months, and make things more volatile and fun.

[Miradus]

How much karma has been given out in the past year?

You have a lot of legacy players sitting at max karma who can already play heavy roles on the power tree. This feels like more party favors to them at the detriment of newer players.

[sucre]

How much karma has been given out in the past year?

You have a lot of legacy players sitting at max karma who can already play heavy roles on the power tree. This feels like more party favors to them at the detriment of newer players.

True AF. Maybe we can codedly limit how many of these a player can get a year?

[mattrious]

I think this is a great idea.

My personal vote would be option (2), where you could have a main guild and a different subguild as well. Maybe the bumps are not as big with a Fighter K1 / Fighter K2 option if you go that route.

[Armaddict]

Honestly.  The main classes already boosted the starting level quite noticeably.  I don't think this is even necessary.  The desire for 'boosting' comes a lot less out of necessity and a lot more out of the need for certain words to appear on skill lists faster, despite those words having no reason to actually need to be on skill lists.

I would focus a whole lot less on boosting and a whole lot more on removing redundancy and remodeling the existing subclasses.  People calling for boosts are doing so for the wrong reasons, because boosts are pretty unnecessary save for special apps for specific roles, where such can be worked out directly in the application process.

[Dar]

Boosts basically help with one and one thing only.  The grind.  And it's a useful solution. Lowering the level of grind without removing scarcity of masterful characters is a good idea in my opinion.


There are a lot of players who can roll out a k2 character? Sure. And then they'll die. And their next character won't have the karma to spend to make their next Chara a boosted one.

I think anything that lowers grind and encourages people to spend karma without increasing Magick levels of the game world is a good idea.

[najdorf]

First one is limiting, the permanent loss of desired subclass is serious.
Second one is ugly, yet much much better than #1. I guess whoever has karma will see all classes as duplicates in character creation

Code Select Expand


Classes:

u) Enforcer             v) Raider               w) Fighter             
x) Infiltrator          y) Scout                z) Soldier             
aa) Miscreant           ab) Stalker             ac) Laborer             
ad) Pilferer            ae) Adventurer          af) Craftsperson       
ag) Fence               ah) Dune Trader         ai) Artisan
u2) Superior Enforcer   v2) Superior Raider     w2) Superior Fighter             
x2) Superior Infiltrator  y2) Superior Scout    z2) Superior Soldier             
aa2) Superior Miscreant   ab2) Superior Stalker   ac2) Superior Laborer             
ad2) Superior Pilferer    ae2) Superior Adventurer  af2) Superior Craftsperson       
ag2) Superior Fence       ah2) Superior Dune Trader  ai2) Superior Artisan 


I can live with it.

[lostinspace]

I think they should be allowed a subclass that doesn't cost karma. And available to all races that don't cost karma.

[MeTekillot]

I'd say make a general "Savant" subguild that does the beefy starting points you stated, has all skills branched, and makes their skill caps 10-20% higher, in exchange for no subguild.

[MeTekillot]

And also give all Templars the Savant skill caps to represent their superior access to tutoring and the like.

[Armaddict]

I'd say make a general "Savant" subguild that does the beefy starting points you stated, has all skills branched, and makes their skill caps 10-20% higher, in exchange for no subguild.

I'd say this is probably the best option presented thusfar, given that it came with a general run-over of subguilds and extended subs as a whole.  As Delerium's thread was pointing out...they really are just in need of overall updates.

[Brokkr]

I'd say make a general "Savant" subguild that does the beefy starting points you stated, has all skills branched, and makes their skill caps 10-20% higher, in exchange for no subguild.

Note the bit about being in the current confines of code.  If a skill is in your sub you get it.  So you want characters to have all skills, with a higher max (which is not on the table)?

Update:  sorry I interpreted general as meaning 1 sub for all guilds, which obviously will not work.

[Brytta Léofa]

I love this idea however it pans out. I would rock a boosted Raider all day long.

Thoughts:

- I love the incentive to play mundane characters.

- The loss of a subclass slot is unimportant for crime classes and wilderness classes. The modern classes get enough skills to make a very complete, capable PC.

- The city classes will really suffer without a subclass, especially fighter. You can't play outside without direction sense. I think this points to making the cost just karma, and allowing a subclass.

- If this were implemented as subclasses: might it make sense to let them be mixed and matched with any class? You'd get e.g. crucial fighter skills with boosted starting points, but the subclass skill cap would be lower than the class cap. So, like, Raider / Fighter-K2-sub starts with journeyman hack and riposte but can't progress much further on those non-raider skills.

- You've talked about starting skill level. What about starting with skills that normally have to branch? (That brutal kick -> disarm branch for raiders...)

- I have no concerns about the competitive aspect, but then I usually expect to be the trailing one in my Byn class due to spending less time.

- I can definitely see waiting for karma regen in order to play a boosted PC. However, that's already an issue with magick and karma races, and it's what flavor roles are for (which can turn into something long-term anyway).

[MeTekillot]

I'd say make a general "Savant" subguild that does the beefy starting points you stated, has all skills branched, and makes their skill caps 10-20% higher, in exchange for no subguild.

Note the bit about being in the current confines of code.  If a skill is in your sub you get it.  So you want characters to have all skills, with a higher max (which is not on the table)?

Update:  sorry I interpreted general as meaning 1 sub for all guilds, which obviously will not work.

It'd be a different savant subguild for each class. Am I understanding correctly you are saying increased skill caps are not on the table?

[Brytta Léofa]

- Will boosted classes that start with significantly boosted weapons skills tend to always be better at combat in the endgame than their non-boosted versions? And is that a problem?

(I think you'll see a difference through the midgame that will even out when folks have good sparring partners.)

[Riev]

- Will boosted classes that start with significantly boosted weapons skills tend to always be better at combat in the endgame than their non-boosted versions? And is that a problem?

(I think you'll see a difference through the midgame that will even out when folks have good sparring partners.)

Boosted weapon skills are a problem because, typically, you do not boost the offense and defense that would normally come from weapon fails. So you might be able to 'get higher, faster'.
I'm okay with that, because you ARE sacrificing the extra utility of a subclass by choosing to be a Super Enforcer (to take Munchkin terms).

My main worry would be that it wouldn't count for branched skills, and some classes have a lot of branches. How would this work on an Artisan, say?

[Veselka]

I like the overall concept. I think it will be a big draw for older/veteran players who want to spend karma to start with a boosted PC. Using Karma in ways other than on different races or magic sub guilds is a big positive, in my opinion.

Perceived Positives:

-Older Players with less time may jump into a PC (I know I certainly would) that doesn't have to spend 3-5 days played grinding to get competent.

-PCs might be more willing to part with their PCs,  if they can jump into another concept without perceived 'time sink ratio'. Meaning to say, the better a PC gets at their skills, the harder it is to lose them and start over. This may help address that.

-Allows Staff to have a 'boosted version' of a class to give sponsored roles, rather than needing to set them up each time (requires an Admin and scheduling etc). Instead they can offer it in the role call, mention they are giving 'K1 for this role' or 'K2 for this role'. Unlock at character generation, and bob's your uncle. Speaking personally, some sponsored roles I've played were quite well boosted/adjusted. Plenty weren't -- Particularly Byn Sergeants -- Where they were just unnaturally shitty compared to their Runners and Troopers in combat. This may help with that.

-Spending karma on the versions of the class helps keep them more spread out for a particular player/account. Takes time to regenerate the karma, and a good use of it.

Perceived Negatives:

-As Brokkr mentioned, will this lead to people taking long breaks in order to continuously play boosted karma versions of a class? I know this happens to some extent for extended sub guilds.

-As Armaddict points out, the main classes already start 'pretty good', particularly compared to legacy classes like Warrior and Assassin. So an even more boosted version of that may need to be considered carefully, particularly where things like offense/defense are concerned.

-No other real negatives that I can think of.

Some ideas in tandem with this:


-I think extended sub guilds and sub guilds should all be 0 karma in line with this change. I don't think skill combinations should really require karma to mix and match -- nothing is really game breaking there.

-If there are karma sub guilds beyond magickers, I think they should be more like 'Fallout'-esque perks. They can also play a bit to the theme of the game, being in some cases mutations or other kinds of 'Blasted Wasteland' things like:
--'Quick Learner' that allows you to gain skills quicker or gain 'more skill' with a failure, boost to the wisdom stat at stat roll, negative to endurance. (2 Karma)
--Indomitable' that makes bashing you/kicking you more difficult. (1 Karma)
--'Thick Skinned', granting some natural armor points to your skin. (1 Karma)
--Psionically Dampened, making it more difficult for you to use psionics, but also to be affected by the psionics of others. (1 Karma)
--Magickally Dampened, same with magick. As this might be often chosen, start relationship to the land as 'very bad', so their health gain/stamina gain is also lowered and affected. (2 Karma)
--Infravision, you can see at night. (1 Karma)
--Wasteland Wanderer, you lose less stamina when you are in the wastes on foot and have master direction sense. (2 Karma)
--Freakishly Large, you get a bonus to strength and endurance when you roll your stats, a negative to agility and wisdom, and can wield two handed weapons in one hand. (2 Karma)
--Freakishly Fast, you get a bonus to agility when you roll stats, a negative to endurance. Your running speed is faster than other people. (2 Karma)
--Second Sight, you get a bonus to dodge incoming attacks and against backstab/darts/arrows/surprise attacks. Your walk/run speed is slower than other people. (2 Karma)
--Natural Born Leader, PCs that follow you gain a bonus to defense, you have a bonus to rescue/guard those that are following you. Your own defense maximum is lowered. (1 Karma)
--Natural Born Killer, you gain a natural bonus to damage/critical chance and offense and chance to hit with backstab and sap. You are also easier to hit, have a lower natural armor, and have a very small chance of triggering 'Mul Rage'. (2 Karma)

And so on. So you can either choose to have more skills in the form of the traditional sub guilds, or you can forego getting extra skills for the most part, for some additional flavor and power. These would certainly be much more unbalancing and ++ than their skill based counterparts, but that is balanced by it being behind karma spending, and provide alternatives to just 'more powerful version of class' as the only way to spend karma.

Just a thought or three.

[askaran]

I don't have any cool suggestions at the moment, but I think that this is a really neat idea. There are a lot of people who have been playing this game a lot longer than I have, but after 16 years of play, It's really sort of a drag when you've got to come up with another character, and then do the whole song-and-dance of why you're 30 something year old whose been a mercenary since they were 12 or a thief since they were a kid is completely inept at what they have been doing for a living their entire lives.

Also, the perks that Veselka mentioned I think is also a very neat idea. I don't really know anything about coding, so I don't know how difficult it would be to implement something like that but like I said, really neat idea.