Feedback on Idea Wanted: Karma Boosted Class or Subclass

[Brokkr]

Unfortunately many skills are only viable maxed out.

Simply not true.  First, PK isn't the only yardstick.  Second, skills are still viable when they fail once in awhile and you die.  And even if you don't die, archery, backstab and sap, the three skills you specifically mention, are quite viable when they aren't maxed out.  Maybe not OHK, but that is ok and even desireable.

[Halcyon]

If professional murderhobos get to have the karma necessary for that, the system is (even more of) a sham anyhow.

Karma or not, its easy to see that the biggest pk counts historically have followed templar and mul roles.   In some cases, the GOATs of pking are an order of magnitude higher than anyone else on the list.

[Dresan]

Unfortunately many skills are only viable maxed out.

Simply not true.  First, PK isn't the only yardstick.  Second, skills are still viable when they fail once in awhile and you die.  And even if you don't die, archery, backstab and sap, the three skills you specifically mention, are quite viable when they aren't maxed out.  Maybe not OHK, but that is ok and even desireable.

You are right. I stand corrected.

Certain classes and their respective skill caps are not viable for my preferred playstyle, which coincidently is one that usually avoids resorting to pk. Of course, just because it does not suit the playstyle i enjoy does not mean the skillsets are not viable for the roles they should excel in. But i digress.

Thinking again of the proposed idea. In summary:

• Definately feels tempting it to go k1(for skill branching, minor skill bosts) or k2(for further noticable skill boosts), but not if we have to give up a subclass for it.
• This is also assuming non-combat starting skills would get a higher boost then non-combat, further making it a good choice for non-combat classes who's skills would rise quickly and easily anyways.
• Lastly, I might have missed it, but I am not sure how offense and defense skills would be handled. My personal preference would be to not boost them at all. 

Either way, generally great over all idea that I am hoping to see implemented as part of character creation option(not special app) before subclass selection, preventing anyone that uses this option from choosing a magicker subclass. Which again will hopefully reduce the temptation for players to go mage after mage.

[mansa]

After sitting on this idea for the weekend,

I really really don't like having two sets of karma boosted classes.
I would rather have one set of karma boosted classes.
I would call it "experienced class", and have one set of them.   It would be much easier to balance going forward.


I really really don't like having the starting skills be boosted "high".   I think, at most, it should be boosted by a maximum of 10 points.
Examples:
If you start sneak at 25, it should go to 35.
If you start weapon skills at 20, it should go to 25
If you start kick at 30, it should go to 35.


I think it should require karma to play the class, but doesn't "spend" karma to pick it.


Non-karma subclasses only.


Muls and Half-giants cannot pick these classes.  Desert Elves can.

[Bogre]

I would probably not ever sacrifice a subclass for higher starting skills. Unless I just intended the character to die quickly, and then I'm prob not spending karma on it.

This might allow for mages to get sniffed out easier. 'OH, you suck at bash, well maybe you're a GICK'.

Also not a fan of chars starting super high or maxed in anything. I don't think anyone should just be handed a super powerful char out the gates. Someone with mid journeyman weapons is probably going to be able to trounce characters with 10+ days played. I'm not opposed to people starting at the range of a spec app or Byn trooper after a month of IC time or whatever. But probably not into the range of passing what is easily achievable.

The higher the floor is boosted the higher everything else has to go. World threats have to scale up. Economy has to scale up with the decreased difficulty to acquire things. There's a gradation inherent in the game that works based on relative skill strengths and the process of making new milestones.

I think that this is still better served with more moderate starting gate boosts and perks for longevity and activity.

[Brisket]

I would probably not ever sacrifice a subclass for higher starting skills. Unless I just intended the character to die quickly, and then I'm prob not spending karma on it.

This.

It's a solution that doesn't address either side of the problem, it only exacerbates the issue if you're taking out a subguild.

Having it be a subclass is not useful - having it be a subset of classes as an option in cgen - it could be added with a single alternative prompt (or just additional class options that cost karma).

[Delirium]

Coded power creep has been a real thing ever since the class and subguild changes and I believe it is part of the reason staff has had difficulty responding appropriately to in-game player actions when it comes to magick-based characters, because the intent (correct me if I'm wrong) was to empower players to all be able to compete within their own sandbox without needing much intervention from the virtual world. Subguild mages were meant to be weaker, but able to blend in better.

Unfortunately, it didn't work out that way. Especially with sorcerers, which I'm glad are having a hard look taken at.

Empowering mundanes with more tools would help. I don't mean tools that provide coded power, but the ability to use creative solutions that are currently only available to certain magicks or through staff intervention.

I'd like to see spice become less punishing and/or wear off while you're logged out, the ability to blindfold and tie people (with counter-abilities to break free), the ability to set coded traps and build barricades, etc. The work on poisons is a great start, especially if the idea is to make them inconvenient and to weaken a character in various ways without necessarily meaning an inevitable death-- they would become more of a creative toolbox rather than instakill combo buttons. There would be room for things to go gloriously wrong, and for things to go gloriously right. That's far more fun than two blowdarts to the neck and a mantishead.

So I'm against boosted subs. I get the desire to lessen "the grind" but the grind is already SO MUCH BETTER than it was, considering how capable characters are when they start out now, and how quickly most skills raise.

I have proved multiple times through play that it is entirely possible to reach advanced/master in weapon skills given the opportunity for regular practice, so it is those opportunities which should be looked at, not boosting characters out of the gate. What causes frustration with "the grind" is not the fact that we have to work for what we've got, but that we feel stuck spinning our wheels with no progress because there is no non-abusive way to raise our skills or there is no-one to learn from. In a smaller playerbase, especially, this problem becomes exacerbated. That is the real issue.

It isn't the work it takes to get there, it's the lack of opportunities TO get there.

If characters want to start out with higher skills, let them special app for that. Having starter off/def but higher weapon skills outside the gate would be an insane advantage for those who know how to properly train (which I feel should be common knowledge, and it is, if you read the helpfiles closely, but that's getting a bit beside the point of the thread).

[stoicreader]

I'm in favor to the staffs main proposal ideas.   I hate the grind. Hate it.

I want to RP a character who doesn't suck out of the gate and have an established background instead of one I need to build.

[Delirium]

If you think the current classes suck out of the gate you never played an old school class.

You start out SO capable compared to how it used to be.

Do not want to see even more creep toward higher starting skills unless it's through a special app.

Growing a character's skills is part of the journey of telling their story. Don't be in such a hurry to reach the next chapter. Enjoy and develop each arc of it. It makes for a far more rewarding and rich experience.

[X-D]

I would only be good with a boosted char if the max was lowered as well. Like one full rank across the board.

[stoicreader]

Growing a character's skills is part of the journey of telling their story. Don't be in such a hurry to reach the next chapter. Enjoy and develop each arc of it. It makes for a far more rewarding and rich experience.

Right now I'm not playing the game.

Y'all want more players? Well this player is telling you what she wants.

You don't need to give me what I want. And I don't need to log on either. Please don't construe it as me saying "give me this or else."

I'm just being candid. I'm not interested in grinding anything, period. It's a waste of my time.

[Delirium]

I'm trying to give you advice on how to shift your viewpoint to stop viewing the skilling-up process as a chore and view it as part of your character's story. It doesn't have to stop you from playing. If it does, that's kinda on you.

[JBlack]

The work on poisons is a great start, especially if the idea is to make them inconvenient and to weaken a character in various ways without necessarily meaning an inevitable death-- they would become more of a creative toolbox rather than instakill combo buttons. There would be room for things to go gloriously wrong, and for things to go gloriously right. That's far more fun than two blowdarts to the neck and a mantishead.

This sort of worries me. With poisons being out of the way, The Twinkier bunch of people will twerk their poison resistance to where they can't really be dealt with as easily, and then you slap this on something like a raider/gicker and they're suddenly needing entire deathsquads to be able to deal with them. It's yet to be seen. I would like some of the "I kill you ha HA spells" in general to be looked at to make the world more in line with the idea behind this. If mundanes are made weaker by the change and not empowered, then I'd rather not see it go through at all. Otherwise, it's putting the best coded tools of supreme murder into the hands of senior players ar 2/3 karma or those who have the golden 3 karma able to spec app sorc/psions.

Granted a lot of the people who have these tools they rarely use them, or do so with extreme reluctance. That isn't to say they won't, but the lines of fairness towards newcomers are further eschewed. While there isn't a fair system and there's never going to be an absolutely fair system, we really should take into consideration how newcomers into the game will first feel when they see these absolute powerhouse raider mages and, then, no way to even think about dealing them 1v1.

As it is now, even the raider majors will be given pause about someone who might whip out a Poisoned dart or a peraine dagger. This might not be the case when the change goes through.

Tl;dr: poison change might make the world better exclusively for the hordes of gickers and sorcs

[stoicreader]

I'm trying to give you advice on how to shift your viewpoint to stop viewing the skilling-up process as a chore and view it as part of your character's story. It doesn't have to stop you from playing. If it does, that's kinda on you.

You're right, I've decided to give arm another go from a fresh angle. Wish me luck

[Halaster]

we really should take into consideration how newcomers into the game will first feel when they see these absolute powerhouse raider mages and, then, no way to even think about dealing them 1v1.

Something to remember about ArmageddonMUD is that it's not meant to be balanced in terms of power.  The very backstory of the game demonstrates that Zalanthas is an unfair world, and there are some with power over others.  The roleplaying aspect comes with playing a character in that unfair world and making their way through it.  The world is post-apocalyptic, which means it experienced terrible change at the hands of those with power.  Certain people (sorcerers, for example) are -meant- to be powerful and difficult to deal with, requiring work and cooperation to take them down.  Granted, sometimes it goes too far and we take a look at it and realize it's not working out how we wanted, so we change it.  But a newcomer absolutely will not be able to 1v1 an experienced powerful sorcerer/magicker, by design.

[titansfan]

I also think with the removal of alot of spells and limitation of spells in sub classes has made mages very manageable. Playing them quite often I fear mundane now more than I ever did before.  Poisons are still deadly as heck and when we are talking about mundane blinding people and such in mundane ways, there's no real difference then right? Why even play a mage who is hated world wide and not allowed to work for anyone when you can then do mundane skills that serve the same effect as spells.

There are only a handful of spells I've seen that can ohk and they are hard to get to and even harder to use correctly or efficiently as they should be.

I'm all for mundane classes getting some cool perks to playing them. I like the special traits idea alot, but it shouldn't be at further detriment to mage subs. Sorcerers should also come back imo.

PS: Karma spend and regen isn't great.  I'd love different options to that.

[SpyGuy]

I dislike the idea of removing subclasses for skill boosts.  The subclass is often a really great tool for RP and/or surviving as a specific concept. If the cost of karma for the skill boosts is not seen as enough then I'd propose that boosted classes (tier 2 classes?) have a set of limited subclasses to choose from.   Something like only being able to choose 0-karma subclasses under the current system.

If we went to a system like that outlined in the initial post, I'd probably only use boosted characters for short term concepts or to just mess around in the desert (same thing most of the time).  If I had a character concept that I wanted to survive long term then I'd feel like I was missing out on a lot of potential.  There's nothing wrong with that, it's just how I imagine I'd act.

[Lotion]

this change would exacerbate the existence of the already prevalent karma jail problem which has only really been addressed by subguild none which I don't think was an intended side effect