Feedback on Idea Wanted: Karma Boosted Class or Subclass

[Brokkr]

There is an idea we have been discussing as Staff that I would like to get player feedback on.  As always, we critique and offer our differing viewpoints and have reached a point where having community feedback would be helpful.

The original idea was to create two subclasses per main class.  Lets say we have class Fighter, so we would create Fighter K1 and Fighter K2.  These subclasses could only be chosen by class fighter.  The subclass skill list would be exactly the same as the Fighter class skill list, except a number of starting values would be increased.  The increase would tend to be associate with the focus of the class, in terms of which skills were boosted.  This would potentially replace skill bumps or be used for roles that get increased skills, although perhaps not.  It would be spendable karma that would be used.  The amount of increase is still being looked at, but when I mocked it up, K1 was around 7-10X the number of skill points that a skill bump could provide, and K2 was well over 10X.

In this setup, beyond the karma cost there would also be the cost to the character of loosing their subclass.  It also means that this would be mundane only.  The main counter-proposal was that this could be done at the class level rather than the subclass level.  So you would have class Fighter K1 and class Fighter K2, and they would start with the boosted starting level for a number of skills.  The argument for this was generally to make the cost only the karma cost and so that these characters were not permanently impacted by a loss of subclass vs a normal character.  Another idea was to make this available only via special application.  Another was to make the karma spent additive to racial karma, so a half-giant could only choose a K1 class/subclass (at a cost of 3 karma) and a mul could not choose one at all.

We are looking for your feedback on this between the approaches, both from the perspective of being able to choose a class/subclass with such boosts as a player, but also your perspective on playing a character without such boosts, potentially in competition with such a character as you start the game.  Your feedback on some of the other perspectives raised in the previous paragraph would be great as well, and of course anything you think of yourself.  One of my concerns with the cost only being karma is that we would just be setting a new defacto bar, and players would not play unless they could play a karma boosted class and would do so every single character (thus my original proposal being subclass, which cost the character something as well as karma).

Some things are already ruled out.  You can discuss them, but we aren't going to be doing that.

• A different form of additional "currency" for boosts, like time accruing points everyone gets.
• Any sort of point buy or other system where you choose what is boosted.  Ideas have to be generally within current code confines.
• Being able to choose boosted class and a mage subclass.  This would only be for mundane characters (thus touching on another point of player feedback beyond just the Grind).

[Riev]

Like a skill-boost special app, without the special app. An interesting idea.

Starting "boosted" from your main class could be interesting. I find MOST boosts people want are for combat and things that take a lot of grinding.

I wouldn't want it available via special app, as thats part of what a special application SHOULD BE. Special, manually setting skills or denying them. Something that alters the character sheet.
This method seems to reduce the staff load on doing that, and making the decisions.

I'm on the fence about allowing HGs and Muls to start with the boosted skills. Nobody likes the grind, but you're also playing a 'stronger' PC by virtue of what you chose.

[mansa]

Let me see if I can understand the ideas presented:

Problem to Solve:
"Skill Grind" player complaint
"Manual Staff Intervention with Special App / Skill Setting" staff workload


Solutions:
Start characters at a higher skill proficiency
Code this, so no continual staff workload


Questions:
Who currently gets access to a "skill boost"?  https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Skill%20Bumps - using a special application
Who will get access to this new "skill boost"?  As an automated system - the game currently has "spendable karma" so we can use that.
Who is left out?  People with 0 karma
Can people with 0 karma CURRENTLY use a special application to get a skill boost?  Yes.
Can people with 0 karma use a special application to get access to karma classes/subclasses? Yes.   This new automated system can solve for a certain percentage of the players, and for those without karma they can go back to the existing ways of handling things.  This will automate and reduce workload for anyone with karma.


Finer Details:
Should it be a separate karma Subclass?
Bad - You can't choose crafting skills (or other skills) to 'flesh out' your existing skillsets.
Bad - You can't choose a mage subclass.   This is decided to be 'not an option' for designing it.




Okay, this is what I'm thinking:

It should be a karma class.  You should force everyone taking that class to choose the 'none' subclass.

[sucre]

Was I misreading that subclasses would not be available for boosted characters? It seemed a little unclear when I perused that particular section twice.

[Brokkr]

If we went with the boosts being in a subclass.  If we went with boosts being in a class, that would allow subclasses, except for mages.

While I am here, the way I have it mocked up currently, K1 only gets boosts to unbranched skills.  If the boost at K2 branches a skill, the branched skill also gets boosted.  It does not need to be that way, potentially could set up boosts on unbranched skills as well, so when they get branched they have a higher starting level.  Something else to discuss I guess.

[Halcyon]

I like the idea. 

I would suggest that no boosted guild be allowed to be selected with any karma races.   All three karma races are already good enough without help.

Would anyone play "boosted" other than Miscreant, Raider, Scout, Dune Trader or Artisan?   I ask because playing without skinning, direction sense, forage and several other utilities is Arm on hardmode.

Could we get primary guild mages back, if we could play them without subguilds?

[Brokkr]

Everyone gets forage.

I know it is sometimes hard to conceptualize without being able to visualize.  Here is a mock-up for Fighter.

[Fawcett]

This would be great, especially if you can still pick a mundane subguild to compliment it.

Though it's worth mentioning that you'd get alot more powerful characters in the gameworld, assuming that most active players are already 1-2 karma.

In my opinion, I'm completely fine with that. It might make people less apprehensive to lose the totally epic skills they twinked up over a few months, and make things more volatile and fun.

[Miradus]

How much karma has been given out in the past year?

You have a lot of legacy players sitting at max karma who can already play heavy roles on the power tree. This feels like more party favors to them at the detriment of newer players.

[sucre]

How much karma has been given out in the past year?

You have a lot of legacy players sitting at max karma who can already play heavy roles on the power tree. This feels like more party favors to them at the detriment of newer players.

True AF. Maybe we can codedly limit how many of these a player can get a year?

[mattrious]

I think this is a great idea.

My personal vote would be option (2), where you could have a main guild and a different subguild as well. Maybe the bumps are not as big with a Fighter K1 / Fighter K2 option if you go that route.

[Armaddict]

Honestly.  The main classes already boosted the starting level quite noticeably.  I don't think this is even necessary.  The desire for 'boosting' comes a lot less out of necessity and a lot more out of the need for certain words to appear on skill lists faster, despite those words having no reason to actually need to be on skill lists.

I would focus a whole lot less on boosting and a whole lot more on removing redundancy and remodeling the existing subclasses.  People calling for boosts are doing so for the wrong reasons, because boosts are pretty unnecessary save for special apps for specific roles, where such can be worked out directly in the application process.

[Dar]

Boosts basically help with one and one thing only.  The grind.  And it's a useful solution. Lowering the level of grind without removing scarcity of masterful characters is a good idea in my opinion.


There are a lot of players who can roll out a k2 character? Sure. And then they'll die. And their next character won't have the karma to spend to make their next Chara a boosted one.

I think anything that lowers grind and encourages people to spend karma without increasing Magick levels of the game world is a good idea.

[najdorf]

First one is limiting, the permanent loss of desired subclass is serious.
Second one is ugly, yet much much better than #1. I guess whoever has karma will see all classes as duplicates in character creation

Code Select Expand


Classes:

u) Enforcer             v) Raider               w) Fighter             
x) Infiltrator          y) Scout                z) Soldier             
aa) Miscreant           ab) Stalker             ac) Laborer             
ad) Pilferer            ae) Adventurer          af) Craftsperson       
ag) Fence               ah) Dune Trader         ai) Artisan
u2) Superior Enforcer   v2) Superior Raider     w2) Superior Fighter             
x2) Superior Infiltrator  y2) Superior Scout    z2) Superior Soldier             
aa2) Superior Miscreant   ab2) Superior Stalker   ac2) Superior Laborer             
ad2) Superior Pilferer    ae2) Superior Adventurer  af2) Superior Craftsperson       
ag2) Superior Fence       ah2) Superior Dune Trader  ai2) Superior Artisan 


I can live with it.

[lostinspace]

I think they should be allowed a subclass that doesn't cost karma. And available to all races that don't cost karma.

[MeTekillot]

I'd say make a general "Savant" subguild that does the beefy starting points you stated, has all skills branched, and makes their skill caps 10-20% higher, in exchange for no subguild.

[MeTekillot]

And also give all Templars the Savant skill caps to represent their superior access to tutoring and the like.

[Armaddict]

I'd say make a general "Savant" subguild that does the beefy starting points you stated, has all skills branched, and makes their skill caps 10-20% higher, in exchange for no subguild.

I'd say this is probably the best option presented thusfar, given that it came with a general run-over of subguilds and extended subs as a whole.  As Delerium's thread was pointing out...they really are just in need of overall updates.

[Brokkr]

I'd say make a general "Savant" subguild that does the beefy starting points you stated, has all skills branched, and makes their skill caps 10-20% higher, in exchange for no subguild.

Note the bit about being in the current confines of code.  If a skill is in your sub you get it.  So you want characters to have all skills, with a higher max (which is not on the table)?

Update:  sorry I interpreted general as meaning 1 sub for all guilds, which obviously will not work.

[Brytta Léofa]

I love this idea however it pans out. I would rock a boosted Raider all day long.

Thoughts:

- I love the incentive to play mundane characters.

- The loss of a subclass slot is unimportant for crime classes and wilderness classes. The modern classes get enough skills to make a very complete, capable PC.

- The city classes will really suffer without a subclass, especially fighter. You can't play outside without direction sense. I think this points to making the cost just karma, and allowing a subclass.

- If this were implemented as subclasses: might it make sense to let them be mixed and matched with any class? You'd get e.g. crucial fighter skills with boosted starting points, but the subclass skill cap would be lower than the class cap. So, like, Raider / Fighter-K2-sub starts with journeyman hack and riposte but can't progress much further on those non-raider skills.

- You've talked about starting skill level. What about starting with skills that normally have to branch? (That brutal kick -> disarm branch for raiders...)

- I have no concerns about the competitive aspect, but then I usually expect to be the trailing one in my Byn class due to spending less time.

- I can definitely see waiting for karma regen in order to play a boosted PC. However, that's already an issue with magick and karma races, and it's what flavor roles are for (which can turn into something long-term anyway).

[MeTekillot]

I'd say make a general "Savant" subguild that does the beefy starting points you stated, has all skills branched, and makes their skill caps 10-20% higher, in exchange for no subguild.

Note the bit about being in the current confines of code.  If a skill is in your sub you get it.  So you want characters to have all skills, with a higher max (which is not on the table)?

Update:  sorry I interpreted general as meaning 1 sub for all guilds, which obviously will not work.

It'd be a different savant subguild for each class. Am I understanding correctly you are saying increased skill caps are not on the table?

[Brytta Léofa]

- Will boosted classes that start with significantly boosted weapons skills tend to always be better at combat in the endgame than their non-boosted versions? And is that a problem?

(I think you'll see a difference through the midgame that will even out when folks have good sparring partners.)

[Riev]

- Will boosted classes that start with significantly boosted weapons skills tend to always be better at combat in the endgame than their non-boosted versions? And is that a problem?

(I think you'll see a difference through the midgame that will even out when folks have good sparring partners.)

Boosted weapon skills are a problem because, typically, you do not boost the offense and defense that would normally come from weapon fails. So you might be able to 'get higher, faster'.
I'm okay with that, because you ARE sacrificing the extra utility of a subclass by choosing to be a Super Enforcer (to take Munchkin terms).

My main worry would be that it wouldn't count for branched skills, and some classes have a lot of branches. How would this work on an Artisan, say?

[Veselka]

I like the overall concept. I think it will be a big draw for older/veteran players who want to spend karma to start with a boosted PC. Using Karma in ways other than on different races or magic sub guilds is a big positive, in my opinion.

Perceived Positives:

-Older Players with less time may jump into a PC (I know I certainly would) that doesn't have to spend 3-5 days played grinding to get competent.

-PCs might be more willing to part with their PCs,  if they can jump into another concept without perceived 'time sink ratio'. Meaning to say, the better a PC gets at their skills, the harder it is to lose them and start over. This may help address that.

-Allows Staff to have a 'boosted version' of a class to give sponsored roles, rather than needing to set them up each time (requires an Admin and scheduling etc). Instead they can offer it in the role call, mention they are giving 'K1 for this role' or 'K2 for this role'. Unlock at character generation, and bob's your uncle. Speaking personally, some sponsored roles I've played were quite well boosted/adjusted. Plenty weren't -- Particularly Byn Sergeants -- Where they were just unnaturally shitty compared to their Runners and Troopers in combat. This may help with that.

-Spending karma on the versions of the class helps keep them more spread out for a particular player/account. Takes time to regenerate the karma, and a good use of it.

Perceived Negatives:

-As Brokkr mentioned, will this lead to people taking long breaks in order to continuously play boosted karma versions of a class? I know this happens to some extent for extended sub guilds.

-As Armaddict points out, the main classes already start 'pretty good', particularly compared to legacy classes like Warrior and Assassin. So an even more boosted version of that may need to be considered carefully, particularly where things like offense/defense are concerned.

-No other real negatives that I can think of.

Some ideas in tandem with this:


-I think extended sub guilds and sub guilds should all be 0 karma in line with this change. I don't think skill combinations should really require karma to mix and match -- nothing is really game breaking there.

-If there are karma sub guilds beyond magickers, I think they should be more like 'Fallout'-esque perks. They can also play a bit to the theme of the game, being in some cases mutations or other kinds of 'Blasted Wasteland' things like:
--'Quick Learner' that allows you to gain skills quicker or gain 'more skill' with a failure, boost to the wisdom stat at stat roll, negative to endurance. (2 Karma)
--Indomitable' that makes bashing you/kicking you more difficult. (1 Karma)
--'Thick Skinned', granting some natural armor points to your skin. (1 Karma)
--Psionically Dampened, making it more difficult for you to use psionics, but also to be affected by the psionics of others. (1 Karma)
--Magickally Dampened, same with magick. As this might be often chosen, start relationship to the land as 'very bad', so their health gain/stamina gain is also lowered and affected. (2 Karma)
--Infravision, you can see at night. (1 Karma)
--Wasteland Wanderer, you lose less stamina when you are in the wastes on foot and have master direction sense. (2 Karma)
--Freakishly Large, you get a bonus to strength and endurance when you roll your stats, a negative to agility and wisdom, and can wield two handed weapons in one hand. (2 Karma)
--Freakishly Fast, you get a bonus to agility when you roll stats, a negative to endurance. Your running speed is faster than other people. (2 Karma)
--Second Sight, you get a bonus to dodge incoming attacks and against backstab/darts/arrows/surprise attacks. Your walk/run speed is slower than other people. (2 Karma)
--Natural Born Leader, PCs that follow you gain a bonus to defense, you have a bonus to rescue/guard those that are following you. Your own defense maximum is lowered. (1 Karma)
--Natural Born Killer, you gain a natural bonus to damage/critical chance and offense and chance to hit with backstab and sap. You are also easier to hit, have a lower natural armor, and have a very small chance of triggering 'Mul Rage'. (2 Karma)

And so on. So you can either choose to have more skills in the form of the traditional sub guilds, or you can forego getting extra skills for the most part, for some additional flavor and power. These would certainly be much more unbalancing and ++ than their skill based counterparts, but that is balanced by it being behind karma spending, and provide alternatives to just 'more powerful version of class' as the only way to spend karma.

Just a thought or three.

[askaran]

I don't have any cool suggestions at the moment, but I think that this is a really neat idea. There are a lot of people who have been playing this game a lot longer than I have, but after 16 years of play, It's really sort of a drag when you've got to come up with another character, and then do the whole song-and-dance of why you're 30 something year old whose been a mercenary since they were 12 or a thief since they were a kid is completely inept at what they have been doing for a living their entire lives.

Also, the perks that Veselka mentioned I think is also a very neat idea. I don't really know anything about coding, so I don't know how difficult it would be to implement something like that but like I said, really neat idea.

[zealus]

The only problem I see with this is the same I see with magicker-class Karma spending: It encourages 1-2 months of careful play, while you wait for your "Investment" to recover. I already see this in magicker classes, and I'd be very sad if this also extended to mundane classes. Otherwise, as someone who is very bad^tm at grinding: I do like the option to start higher every X time, but I'd really really like it to be available to 0 karma players too.

[Delirium]

Fix the main classes first. Especially Fighter. There will be even less reason to choose Fighter over Raider/Enforcer.

My opinion on adding more subs without fixing and adjusting the old subs is already pretty well expanded on in this thread.

Many subguilds are uneven now and either too weak/strong in comparison to others of similar cost.

This just seems like a way for people to play flash in the pan characters and will have zero appeal to those who play patiently. If staff wants more of that, then this is a way to achieve it, but the best stories tend to unfold slowly and evolve naturally over time.

[Armaddict]

If there are karma sub guilds beyond magickers, I think they should be more like 'Fallout'-esque perks. They can also play a bit to the theme of the game, being in some cases mutations or other kinds of 'Blasted Wasteland' things like:
--'Quick Learner' that allows you to gain skills quicker or gain 'more skill' with a failure, boost to the wisdom stat at stat roll, negative to endurance. (2 Karma)
--Indomitable' that makes bashing you/kicking you more difficult. (1 Karma)
--'Thick Skinned', granting some natural armor points to your skin. (1 Karma)
--Psionically Dampened, making it more difficult for you to use psionics, but also to be affected by the psionics of others. (1 Karma)
--Magickally Dampened, same with magick. As this might be often chosen, start relationship to the land as 'very bad', so their health gain/stamina gain is also lowered and affected. (2 Karma)
--Infravision, you can see at night. (1 Karma)
--Wasteland Wanderer, you lose less stamina when you are in the wastes on foot and have master direction sense. (2 Karma)
--Freakishly Large, you get a bonus to strength and endurance when you roll your stats, a negative to agility and wisdom, and can wield two handed weapons in one hand. (2 Karma)
--Freakishly Fast, you get a bonus to agility when you roll stats, a negative to endurance. Your running speed is faster than other people. (2 Karma)
--Second Sight, you get a bonus to dodge incoming attacks and against backstab/darts/arrows/surprise attacks. Your walk/run speed is slower than other people. (2 Karma)
--Natural Born Leader, PCs that follow you gain a bonus to defense, you have a bonus to rescue/guard those that are following you. Your own defense maximum is lowered. (1 Karma)
--Natural Born Killer, you gain a natural bonus to damage/critical chance and offense and chance to hit with backstab and sap. You are also easier to hit, have a lower natural armor, and have a very small chance of triggering 'Mul Rage'. (2 Karma)

To +1 this in some form, I've been a proponent of a traits/perks/advantage/disadvantage addition to character creation for some time, whether that comes along with other changes or not.  More variety from character to character, hard choices, are what make distinct differences from play to play.  'The grind' is less of a problem of 'I'm not good', and more a problem of 'this is repetitive', because ultimately they always lead to the same place.  Making more distinct destinations for skilled characters is, in my opinion, the best way to make 'the grind' better, not simply bypassing the grind as a whole.  The whole problem I have with new classes is just how much they overlap; going from scout to raider, or infiltrator to miscreant, is not altogether that different.

Endless replayability in RPG's doesn't come from re-experiencing the story again.  It comes from having new tools, new perspectives, new options.  Anything to make one character to the next a more defined difference is good, and a healthy amount of -viable- perks, subguilds, and other additions to foundational classes or backbones is the solution in my mind.

I don't think boosting really solves much, it just bandaids a formula by trying to remove it from the equation, rather than making that equation draw more interesting lines.

[Brokkr]

New traits and such are also sort of off the table at this point.  That simply is not what we are working on right now.

[th3kaiser]

This just seems like a way for people to play flash in the pan characters and will have zero appeal to those who play patiently. If staff wants more of that, then this is a way to achieve it, but the best stories tend to unfold slowly and evolve naturally over time.

It's all a matter of perspective. I'm not currently playing and haven't for a couple of years as my free-time has decreased. This might have a few of us who aren't around pop back in to join your patiently building stories for a cameo.

[Wday]

I like this idea only because I understand some are busy in life and can not grind as much. BUT I also know this means even less will be put into those characters to flesh them out.  In my mind I picture this working out much like sargeant role calls, One will start the game buff train a few times and vanish to there is finally a RPT they can log on with.

Sidenote! I am not saying everyone in role calls does that!  I truly do not know your PC's goals and daily actions towards plots! I am only assuming from some of MY own point of view type playing and it is bad to assume I know.

[Nao]

I share the concern that these +1 or +2 PCs will become the new standard. In the end it just raises the bar of what is considered "the required level to be playable/effective/whatever" and not really change anything about the grind. We measure our PCs against other PCs, not critters or NPCs. With the new classes there's not much grind required anymore to kill most common and even uncommon critters, but we still need the feel to grind to be better than other PCs.

Then there's the general issue with anything that spends karma is an incentive not to play while you wait for karma to regenerate.

[Delirium]

This just seems like a way for people to play flash in the pan characters and will have zero appeal to those who play patiently. If staff wants more of that, then this is a way to achieve it, but the best stories tend to unfold slowly and evolve naturally over time.

It's all a matter of perspective. I'm not currently playing and haven't for a couple of years as my free-time has decreased. This might have a few of us who aren't around pop back in to join your patiently building stories for a cameo.

As long as you're not playing a lunatic who forces artificial conflict and puts an axe through those stories just for kicks.

[MeTekillot]

I think there's a place for conflict driving lunatics among the careful plotters. There just aren't many tools available to them besides PKing. But that's not the point of this thread.

[Delirium]

It kind of is, because being able to jump in the game as a buffed up class with PK capabilities is going to be extremely appealing to those types of people, and it gets extremely tiresome to try and run plots with multiple factions only to have some day 1 character shank the only PC from faction B you've been able to find and work/fight/both with.

[Patuk]

If professional murderhobos get to have the karma necessary for that, the system is (even more of) a sham anyhow.

[Ender]

I too am concerned this would just become the new normal every new PC is expected to be, and does more to discourage players from starting fresh.

I do think a lot of old sub-classes need to be looked at and updated to better fit with the current classes rather than newer sub-classes be added in that will become the defacto subclass everyone will want to take instead.  It makes it seem like all the work in the older subclasses has gone to waste when they could be redone to better fit and flesh out characters.

The biggest problem with raising the starting line is the finishing line becomes a lot closer, and PCs WILL burn out when there is nowhere left to go.  Removing subguilds will also mean less ways for them to interact with the game world and removing more finishing lines for those characters to reach.  You'll be stuck with a lot of high stat'd combat characters with no utility that will get bored very quickly.

[MeTekillot]

The biggest problem with raising the starting line is the finishing line becomes a lot closer, and PCs WILL burn out when there is nowhere left to go. 

Open up more options for players to play with, then

[Delirium]

The biggest problem with raising the starting line is the finishing line becomes a lot closer, and PCs WILL burn out when there is nowhere left to go. 

Open up more options for players to play with, then

Like what? Being more powerful isn't the point of the game and can actively harm the gameplay experience for others.

[LindseyBalboa]

who cares if it's a new standard for a few players. it's limited by karma already.

if i have 3 karma i can go play a shadow walker or a nilazi or a krathi destruction every 91 days.

this would just make it more likely people would take a 5d played mundane out of chargen instead of a gick.

if it helps a lot of the worriers, i've played (and seen others reference this issue in this thread) a few sponsored
characters and having some pvp skills up will not make you the equal of a pc who has grinded for those skills. at all.
it is a head start, but a few days played is needed still to even start balancing the character out for how good they
seem like they should be.

if someone is going to wait 2-3 months to put in an app for a boosted sub guild they're going to do it regardless, and they
were probably doing this for karma-gated roles already. i could definitely build a better combat character than any initial sponsored
combat role i've seen, with 2 hours/day in 2 rl months if that was my only concern.

this just makes it a little more fun of a game for players that don't have that time.

[mansa]

My feelings are...

If you compare the playtime required to be on par with the "head start" class, and that playtime required is longer than the karma timer for the class, the incentive is to not play.


Example:
K2 special class gives you journeyman / advanced across the board, and non-special class takes an approximation of 15 days playtime (360 hours) to match those skill proficiencies, it would be smarter to wait until the timer reset.



I am of the mindset that there shouldn't be a k2 and k1 class, but a singular "experienced class", that gives a maximum of 15% additional starting proficiency.
If that class works out and there isn't an issue, then look at adding an even more advanced class at that time.  Test the uptake of the new classes and how they effect the playspace and decide from there.

Make the new testing class 2 karma.  See if it works.   Make changes a year from now.

[mattrious]

At the end of the day you're not going to make everyone happy. An additional thought I had, was that this change would also alter the number of active magick wielders in the game. If you search the general discussion forum for keyword 'magick' -- you will find a slough of threads of folks complaining about magickers not being scary to there is too many magick users in game, etc.

When you implement a change like this, players will gravitate to other concepts and ideas for mundane PCs. In turn, you'll have less magick types in the world.

[Barsook]

I too am concerned this would just become the new normal every new PC is expected to be, and does more to discourage players from starting fresh.

I do think a lot of old sub-classes need to be looked at and updated to better fit with the current classes rather than newer sub-classes be added in that will become the defacto subclass everyone will want to take instead.  It makes it seem like all the work in the older subclasses has gone to waste when they could be redone to better fit and flesh out characters.

The biggest problem with raising the starting line is the finishing line becomes a lot closer, and PCs WILL burn out when there is nowhere left to go.  Removing subguilds will also mean less ways for them to interact with the game world and removing more finishing lines for those characters to reach.  You'll be stuck with a lot of high stat'd combat characters with no utility that will get bored very quickly.

+1

[Lotion]

I did not read the whole thread yet (just the OP) but as someone who has very strong opinions on subclasses I think sacrificing having a subguild to increase the starting skills of a main guild is inherently antithetical to at least two existing guilds. Raider and Enforcer were both designed with the intent that a longer lived character would be able to branch a bunch of high utility skills. Sacrificing an extremely valuable source of high utility skills (subguilds) in exchange for a higher starting point generally invalidates the entire concept of Raider and Enforcer while also denying them the absurd amount of utility they can obtain from their subguilds.

Sacrificing the existence of a subguild in order to have a higher starting point only makes sense for a very short term character that could die very quickly. As karma currently exists the concept of spending karma for a very short term character that could die very quickly is absurdly foolish. Because of the harsh penalty inherent in going to zero spendable karma (unable to pick the subguilds which are almost exclusively better) players are heavily punished for dying on a character they spent all of their spendable karma on before regenerating back up to one.

The existence of subguild none alleviates this somewhat by allowing players to roll out subguild none at zero karma and then picking a superior subguild after regenerating their karma but forcing players to play with a subguild for sometimes up to 30 days is still a very harsh mechanical penalty for dying while still in "karma jail".

[Brytta Léofa]

I did not read the whole thread yet (just the OP) but as someone who has very strong opinions on subclasses I think sacrificing having a subguild to increase the starting skills of a main guild is inherently antithetical to at least two existing guilds. Raider and Enforcer

So, lumbergh.gif, I disagree on this. Haven't played an enforcer, but I played about 20 days on a raider with a magick sub. I never ever cast a spell, so all my skills were main class. I never felt blocked by missing skills. Like, it would have been nice if I could bandage or make arrows? But I didn't run out of things to do. I could go almost anywhere and fight almost anything and that was enough for me.

Ranger and enforcer get so much more on the skill list than warrior did that in my mind they already have a subclass built in.

(This may be a difference in play style. Anecdata etc.)

On the other hand, I'd make your argument about fighter and possibly the other non-sneak city classes. Without direction sense and arguably climb, you can't play outside. Without stealth, you're at a PvP disadvantage in the city. Fighter definitely needs a subclass.

[Brytta Léofa]

Brokkr, do you have figures right at hand on karma distribution of active players? Like what % of recent logins have 0/1/2/3 karma?

[Barsook]

It would be nice if this can be used for clans to bypass the Recruit year for those that don't want to deal with grind without spec apping.

[Dresan]

hmm.

Well let me begin by saying that as someone who loves pure mundane characters, it would be nice to see more incentive for playing them. Especially for someone like me who has limited time and patience to join a clan which in my opnion is where most of the incentive for playing mundanes exist.

Nothing against people who like magic classes, I even support the idea of bringing back full mages classes, despite how limted the interactions options become for my character with ALL the mages in game. That said, while more cool magick options are added, miscreants got nerfed and many cool mundane skill options for subclasses that even I would enjoy playing happen to touched classes. And that is not even getting into the mundane grind vs casting an easily trained spell and hitting like a mul, or the fact that good roleplaying dictates a mundanes should be shitting themseles every time a magicker yawns. So again, yeah its nice to see mundanes being given some more love and promoted as a more tempting option to play rather than just another magick option.

Now as to the proposed idea here are some thoughts:

If i wanted to play an enforcer, it is very difficult for me to anything other than bounty hunter. Because max sap is unique to this class and the only reasonable way of getting it is to pick a class subclass that gives you access to it, bounty hunting having other very much useful skills like direction sense and ride. I really wish backstab/sap branched from disarm instead of weapon skill but thats a dead horse at this point.  With infiltrator, pickmaking is something I would enjoy having branched because its annoying do so as well but I wouldn't sacrifice a subclass for it. Basically not all classes are like raiders, many are still dependant on subclasses to be viable/fun in some cases.

The other thing is that it isn't very difficult to get a skill like say backstab and sap to advanced but getting that skill to MAX is what is time consuming so getting an early boost isn't worth the karma if you really want to be competitive.

Therefore, these would be my recommendations:

• Allow karma boosted options but still allow people to choose subclasses, depending how much karma is left. eg. If i have one karma, I might choose to boost my enforcer branching sap, but still pick a 0 karma subclass like weapon crafter to round them out. If i have two karma, I might choose to also boost my infiltrator by 1 karma to aquire pick making but then still have 1 karma left allowing me to select an extended subclass to round them out.


• While across the board boosting is not a bad thing. I would look at every class and pick a few select skills to boost to MAX levels at k2 options.To be specific, a k2 raider should probably have MAX archery, mid-journey man weapon skills and max ride, a k2 enforcer should have max sap, a k2 warrior max disarm and advanced weapons. And while that might seem overpowered, the game both trusts and is willing to give someone with k2 the option to pick a magickal subguilds that gives them insane buffs and abilities, not to mention open up roleplay possibilities that mundanes can only dream of with very little grind, yet certain mundane skills can only be aquired through massive time sinks that promote twinking. 


• Instead of just skill boosts, K1 and K2 class options should allow X2-X5 the learning rate of a failed skill.In the case of stalker and miscreants, crafters, I can't imagine boosted options being as tempting as just learning faster in general and helping get your skills where they need to be. This will reduce the grind without completely eliminating the effort to the coded finish line which should make some concerns moot.


• Please no special applications. It creates needless work for everyone, outside of perhaps just for testing purposes. And I feel would really prevent this from being a good alternative then just being another magicker.

I am also hoping to see 2 karma mundane subguild options someday. In comparison to the skill cap levels the extended subguilds originally had, they are currently much more watered down now, I would like to see a more mundane subguild options with higher skill caps.

Lastly, the traits idea sounds really cool, and would love to see something like this implemented that gives a bit more flavor to our mundanes.

[Brokkr]

Doubt there will ever be an overall skill increasing trait/skill whatever, because the gain for each skill is handled in that skill, not universally.  So you would have to code something in for every skill.  And it is only really combat/weapon skills that are slow, generally.

[Dresan]

And it is only really combat/weapon skills that are slow, generally.

1 karma for all class skills branched, with modest skill boost is tempting. Assuming you can use the rest of your karma if any for non-magickal extended sub-classes.

However, the k2 option seems a bit lackluster, because as mentioned getting most non-combat skills to journeyman or advance is not hard, even with skills like archery, backstab and sap the challenge is getting them maxed out. Unfortunately many skills are only viable maxed out. It takes time and effort to create a fun concept, you don't want to lose it because you decided to try something and your skill (ex.stealth) failed.

That is why i suggest that a few(3-4) class defining skills are maxed are offered at max with the k2 option. For example, disarm and high journeyman/low advance weaponskill for fighters. MAXed backstab and modest piecing and bludgeoning weapon boost for infiltrators, miscreants maxed out steal, sneak,hide and sleight of hand with a good boost to pick, raiders with max charge and archery, etc.

A person starting out with a maxed backstab infiltrator with modest weapon skill boost would definitely fun right out the box and significantly reduce of the feeling of grind. And as powerful as that might sound, in my humble opinion its still much better for the game than yet another magicker sub-guild running around.

[Brokkr]

Unfortunately many skills are only viable maxed out.

Simply not true.  First, PK isn't the only yardstick.  Second, skills are still viable when they fail once in awhile and you die.  And even if you don't die, archery, backstab and sap, the three skills you specifically mention, are quite viable when they aren't maxed out.  Maybe not OHK, but that is ok and even desireable.

[Halcyon]

If professional murderhobos get to have the karma necessary for that, the system is (even more of) a sham anyhow.

Karma or not, its easy to see that the biggest pk counts historically have followed templar and mul roles.   In some cases, the GOATs of pking are an order of magnitude higher than anyone else on the list.

[Dresan]

Unfortunately many skills are only viable maxed out.

Simply not true.  First, PK isn't the only yardstick.  Second, skills are still viable when they fail once in awhile and you die.  And even if you don't die, archery, backstab and sap, the three skills you specifically mention, are quite viable when they aren't maxed out.  Maybe not OHK, but that is ok and even desireable.

You are right. I stand corrected.

Certain classes and their respective skill caps are not viable for my preferred playstyle, which coincidently is one that usually avoids resorting to pk. Of course, just because it does not suit the playstyle i enjoy does not mean the skillsets are not viable for the roles they should excel in. But i digress.

Thinking again of the proposed idea. In summary:

• Definately feels tempting it to go k1(for skill branching, minor skill bosts) or k2(for further noticable skill boosts), but not if we have to give up a subclass for it.
• This is also assuming non-combat starting skills would get a higher boost then non-combat, further making it a good choice for non-combat classes who's skills would rise quickly and easily anyways.
• Lastly, I might have missed it, but I am not sure how offense and defense skills would be handled. My personal preference would be to not boost them at all. 

Either way, generally great over all idea that I am hoping to see implemented as part of character creation option(not special app) before subclass selection, preventing anyone that uses this option from choosing a magicker subclass. Which again will hopefully reduce the temptation for players to go mage after mage.

[mansa]

After sitting on this idea for the weekend,

I really really don't like having two sets of karma boosted classes.
I would rather have one set of karma boosted classes.
I would call it "experienced class", and have one set of them.   It would be much easier to balance going forward.


I really really don't like having the starting skills be boosted "high".   I think, at most, it should be boosted by a maximum of 10 points.
Examples:
If you start sneak at 25, it should go to 35.
If you start weapon skills at 20, it should go to 25
If you start kick at 30, it should go to 35.


I think it should require karma to play the class, but doesn't "spend" karma to pick it.


Non-karma subclasses only.


Muls and Half-giants cannot pick these classes.  Desert Elves can.

[Bogre]

I would probably not ever sacrifice a subclass for higher starting skills. Unless I just intended the character to die quickly, and then I'm prob not spending karma on it.

This might allow for mages to get sniffed out easier. 'OH, you suck at bash, well maybe you're a GICK'.

Also not a fan of chars starting super high or maxed in anything. I don't think anyone should just be handed a super powerful char out the gates. Someone with mid journeyman weapons is probably going to be able to trounce characters with 10+ days played. I'm not opposed to people starting at the range of a spec app or Byn trooper after a month of IC time or whatever. But probably not into the range of passing what is easily achievable.

The higher the floor is boosted the higher everything else has to go. World threats have to scale up. Economy has to scale up with the decreased difficulty to acquire things. There's a gradation inherent in the game that works based on relative skill strengths and the process of making new milestones.

I think that this is still better served with more moderate starting gate boosts and perks for longevity and activity.

[Brisket]

I would probably not ever sacrifice a subclass for higher starting skills. Unless I just intended the character to die quickly, and then I'm prob not spending karma on it.

This.

It's a solution that doesn't address either side of the problem, it only exacerbates the issue if you're taking out a subguild.

Having it be a subclass is not useful - having it be a subset of classes as an option in cgen - it could be added with a single alternative prompt (or just additional class options that cost karma).

[Delirium]

Coded power creep has been a real thing ever since the class and subguild changes and I believe it is part of the reason staff has had difficulty responding appropriately to in-game player actions when it comes to magick-based characters, because the intent (correct me if I'm wrong) was to empower players to all be able to compete within their own sandbox without needing much intervention from the virtual world. Subguild mages were meant to be weaker, but able to blend in better.

Unfortunately, it didn't work out that way. Especially with sorcerers, which I'm glad are having a hard look taken at.

Empowering mundanes with more tools would help. I don't mean tools that provide coded power, but the ability to use creative solutions that are currently only available to certain magicks or through staff intervention.

I'd like to see spice become less punishing and/or wear off while you're logged out, the ability to blindfold and tie people (with counter-abilities to break free), the ability to set coded traps and build barricades, etc. The work on poisons is a great start, especially if the idea is to make them inconvenient and to weaken a character in various ways without necessarily meaning an inevitable death-- they would become more of a creative toolbox rather than instakill combo buttons. There would be room for things to go gloriously wrong, and for things to go gloriously right. That's far more fun than two blowdarts to the neck and a mantishead.

So I'm against boosted subs. I get the desire to lessen "the grind" but the grind is already SO MUCH BETTER than it was, considering how capable characters are when they start out now, and how quickly most skills raise.

I have proved multiple times through play that it is entirely possible to reach advanced/master in weapon skills given the opportunity for regular practice, so it is those opportunities which should be looked at, not boosting characters out of the gate. What causes frustration with "the grind" is not the fact that we have to work for what we've got, but that we feel stuck spinning our wheels with no progress because there is no non-abusive way to raise our skills or there is no-one to learn from. In a smaller playerbase, especially, this problem becomes exacerbated. That is the real issue.

It isn't the work it takes to get there, it's the lack of opportunities TO get there.

If characters want to start out with higher skills, let them special app for that. Having starter off/def but higher weapon skills outside the gate would be an insane advantage for those who know how to properly train (which I feel should be common knowledge, and it is, if you read the helpfiles closely, but that's getting a bit beside the point of the thread).

[stoicreader]

I'm in favor to the staffs main proposal ideas.   I hate the grind. Hate it.

I want to RP a character who doesn't suck out of the gate and have an established background instead of one I need to build.

[Delirium]

If you think the current classes suck out of the gate you never played an old school class.

You start out SO capable compared to how it used to be.

Do not want to see even more creep toward higher starting skills unless it's through a special app.

Growing a character's skills is part of the journey of telling their story. Don't be in such a hurry to reach the next chapter. Enjoy and develop each arc of it. It makes for a far more rewarding and rich experience.

[X-D]

I would only be good with a boosted char if the max was lowered as well. Like one full rank across the board.

[stoicreader]

Growing a character's skills is part of the journey of telling their story. Don't be in such a hurry to reach the next chapter. Enjoy and develop each arc of it. It makes for a far more rewarding and rich experience.

Right now I'm not playing the game.

Y'all want more players? Well this player is telling you what she wants.

You don't need to give me what I want. And I don't need to log on either. Please don't construe it as me saying "give me this or else."

I'm just being candid. I'm not interested in grinding anything, period. It's a waste of my time.

[Delirium]

I'm trying to give you advice on how to shift your viewpoint to stop viewing the skilling-up process as a chore and view it as part of your character's story. It doesn't have to stop you from playing. If it does, that's kinda on you.

[JBlack]

The work on poisons is a great start, especially if the idea is to make them inconvenient and to weaken a character in various ways without necessarily meaning an inevitable death-- they would become more of a creative toolbox rather than instakill combo buttons. There would be room for things to go gloriously wrong, and for things to go gloriously right. That's far more fun than two blowdarts to the neck and a mantishead.

This sort of worries me. With poisons being out of the way, The Twinkier bunch of people will twerk their poison resistance to where they can't really be dealt with as easily, and then you slap this on something like a raider/gicker and they're suddenly needing entire deathsquads to be able to deal with them. It's yet to be seen. I would like some of the "I kill you ha HA spells" in general to be looked at to make the world more in line with the idea behind this. If mundanes are made weaker by the change and not empowered, then I'd rather not see it go through at all. Otherwise, it's putting the best coded tools of supreme murder into the hands of senior players ar 2/3 karma or those who have the golden 3 karma able to spec app sorc/psions.

Granted a lot of the people who have these tools they rarely use them, or do so with extreme reluctance. That isn't to say they won't, but the lines of fairness towards newcomers are further eschewed. While there isn't a fair system and there's never going to be an absolutely fair system, we really should take into consideration how newcomers into the game will first feel when they see these absolute powerhouse raider mages and, then, no way to even think about dealing them 1v1.

As it is now, even the raider majors will be given pause about someone who might whip out a Poisoned dart or a peraine dagger. This might not be the case when the change goes through.

Tl;dr: poison change might make the world better exclusively for the hordes of gickers and sorcs

[stoicreader]

I'm trying to give you advice on how to shift your viewpoint to stop viewing the skilling-up process as a chore and view it as part of your character's story. It doesn't have to stop you from playing. If it does, that's kinda on you.

You're right, I've decided to give arm another go from a fresh angle. Wish me luck

[Halaster]

we really should take into consideration how newcomers into the game will first feel when they see these absolute powerhouse raider mages and, then, no way to even think about dealing them 1v1.

Something to remember about ArmageddonMUD is that it's not meant to be balanced in terms of power.  The very backstory of the game demonstrates that Zalanthas is an unfair world, and there are some with power over others.  The roleplaying aspect comes with playing a character in that unfair world and making their way through it.  The world is post-apocalyptic, which means it experienced terrible change at the hands of those with power.  Certain people (sorcerers, for example) are -meant- to be powerful and difficult to deal with, requiring work and cooperation to take them down.  Granted, sometimes it goes too far and we take a look at it and realize it's not working out how we wanted, so we change it.  But a newcomer absolutely will not be able to 1v1 an experienced powerful sorcerer/magicker, by design.

[titansfan]

I also think with the removal of alot of spells and limitation of spells in sub classes has made mages very manageable. Playing them quite often I fear mundane now more than I ever did before.  Poisons are still deadly as heck and when we are talking about mundane blinding people and such in mundane ways, there's no real difference then right? Why even play a mage who is hated world wide and not allowed to work for anyone when you can then do mundane skills that serve the same effect as spells.

There are only a handful of spells I've seen that can ohk and they are hard to get to and even harder to use correctly or efficiently as they should be.

I'm all for mundane classes getting some cool perks to playing them. I like the special traits idea alot, but it shouldn't be at further detriment to mage subs. Sorcerers should also come back imo.

PS: Karma spend and regen isn't great.  I'd love different options to that.

[SpyGuy]

I dislike the idea of removing subclasses for skill boosts.  The subclass is often a really great tool for RP and/or surviving as a specific concept. If the cost of karma for the skill boosts is not seen as enough then I'd propose that boosted classes (tier 2 classes?) have a set of limited subclasses to choose from.   Something like only being able to choose 0-karma subclasses under the current system.

If we went to a system like that outlined in the initial post, I'd probably only use boosted characters for short term concepts or to just mess around in the desert (same thing most of the time).  If I had a character concept that I wanted to survive long term then I'd feel like I was missing out on a lot of potential.  There's nothing wrong with that, it's just how I imagine I'd act.

[Lotion]

this change would exacerbate the existence of the already prevalent karma jail problem which has only really been addressed by subguild none which I don't think was an intended side effect