From Feedback to Sexism

[Hauwke]

As men, we don't often even think about sexism, let alone see when it happens. To us, it often might as well not exist because it does not effect us. Which isn't to say that is a good thing. It's bad that we often miss it.

Educate, educate, educate. Flippantly dismissing an earnest attempt to learn merely cements the desire to just ignore it.

Until recently, I had no idea that a few of the behaviours I exhibit sometimes were sexist in any way, but I had my attention brought to it and was then able to change.

[Veselka]

I heartily recommend for male players to play a female PC. It is pretty eye opening how female PCs are treated IG, and you don't really see it until you play a female PC.

[Delirium]

I am so exhausted with the onus being on those who experience sexism to explain that it does exist and then often to have to argue with people who refuse to see it. Why do I have to educate people? How about you educate yourselves? Trust me those gifs were much more productive than what I wanted to say. Anyone remember a certain ask the staff question that sparked threads re:sexism which got repeatedly locked and saw many of the carefully written posts I made get deleted wholesale? You will just have to forgive me if I am very tired of repeating myself.

Then the question never even got answered.

[Veselka]

Another thing I have noted:

Amount of time it takes for people to join organizations.

The Poet's Circle used to take on members with or without an audition as 'probationary members' or Apprentices. If they were sacks of shit, they were kicked out forever. Otherwise, they joined right in!

I've noticed some people with Tuluk opening professed interest in joining...And were told they would need to wait a year, and then audition, and then maybe wait another year to join.

That's pretty ludicrous. Most organizations should be able to join right in, like the AoD, or the Byn. Some require some modicum of trust or watching first (The Guild, Jaxa Pah, shady organizations, the Crimson Wind) that is mostly related to them being illegal or doing illegal activity regularly, and not wanting to get ratted out and caught. I don't see the Poet's Circle as being remotely near that.

If we're going to encourage people to play in Clans, we should make it a straightforward process, not a convoluted one.

[Dar]

I am so exhausted with the onus being on those who experience sexism to explain that it does exist and then often to have to argue with people who refuse to see it. Why do I have to educate people? How about you educate yourselves? Trust me those gifs were much more productive than what I wanted to say. Anyone remember a certain ask the staff question that sparked threads re:sexism which got repeatedly locked and saw many of the carefully written posts I made get deleted wholesale? You will just have to forgive me if I am very tired of repeating myself.

Then the question never even got answered.

You can PM me if you prefer.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

For me there are only two reasons.

1. Real Life and Work.

2. Other hobbies/dreams that come along to suck up time. I'm an obsessive person, so I get back into things real hardcore.

I still love the game, I don't have any conflicts with staff, and I'm not bored.

[Narf]

I heartily recommend for male players to play a female PC. It is pretty eye opening how female PCs are treated IG, and you don't really see it until you play a female PC.

I make a point to play an exact 50/50 split of males versus  females, and I've got to say every "sexual shaming" type plotline I've  ever been a part of was with  a female PC. And sometimes they just came out of nowhere.

The problem with addressing it is perspective. It's not common in the sense that most players behave in a sexist manner, but it is almost certain that if you play a female character that lives long enough in a social role you'll have to deal with it. The longer you live, the more times you'll have to deal with it. It's a type of problem that is difficult to see if you're not in the middle of it.

I'd echo the person above. Play a female character in a social role that lives at least 4 RL months. You'll see it.

Edit: Suppose I'll actually answer the OP.

1) Personally I go in waves. If something more interesting is happening IRL, my playtimes drop off. This can happen either because something more fun is happening in my RL, or because my character is in a doldrum. If it's the latter, it usually means that I either can't think of something interesting for them to do, or the thing they were trying to do got stalled.

2) The fewer people around to talk to, the less I play.

3) I'm not the "pure" Rper sort. To some degree I like to see numbers on my sheet go up. Doesn't really matter which numbers, or even if they're useful numbers particularly (woot, notched up clayworking!). If my character is otherwise unable to progress in other goals I sometimes will supplement those goals with 'get gud at somethin'. If I can't progress at my main goal, and I can't notch up my numbers as a backup then I'll tend to play less.

[Harmless]

When I take long breaks it is because my character's plot stagnated. I see these breaks as a good thing. I learned to appreciate breaks for giving me back more time. The time investment is big and in isolated roles the time you need to sink in to get that ah moment of surprise or shock or excitement or intrigue or whatever gets to be days worth and most of the sleuthing to find action just is about figuring out who is online when and who can interact with your role. I seem to keep picking iso roles but again I don't ever want to get too busy and the sweet spot of having a few regular interactions with a few folks gets disrupted too easily when one person goes inactive as I said.

BTW the sexism is real and examples come constantly. Honestly the rule that rape accusations for example cannot be made is a double standard. It is perfectly okay to slut shame a female for having gotten pregnant or something  but a female can't reveal that she was raped by someone or is forced to dance around the topic to avoid violating that bizarre and recent rule. Yes, being accused of rape is a damaging accusation but so is being accused of being promiscuous or unfaithful, especially because some of this game culture revolves around gross baby making contracts between highborn and stuff. Yet. The rules are fine with saying whatever you want about someone's sexuality except not that you were raped by them. Such rules need a hard look at for the sake of understanding why those rules were felt to be needed in the first place and to redefine them with a more updated understanding of how sexuality is good but power abuse in a relationship is bad and comes in many forms, not just outright rape. To say only the least about a topic that, if we devolve into, will distract from the point of the thread,  but the point is that if staff want to know why I have drifted away from this game I used to primarily play for social RP. (Echoing delirium and bebop and triste.)

[Veselka]

Honestly, we should just avoid derailing this thread with another thread about sexism in the game. I apologize for contributing to that derail.

[triste]

Word, and ty for the apt adjective "another."

[Veselka]

And I don't mean to be dismissive of discussing sexism in the game. As Delirium pointed out, the last thread got locked and heavily moderated to its detriment, and a dead horse is a dead horse. I think we all know how we feel.

I think sexism is alive and well in ArmageddonMUD, just as it is alive and well in the real world. We didn't 'SOLVE' Sexism by adding that women and men 'should be' treated equally where it concerns professional life (equality in the work place, a female Agent can be just as good / powerful as a male Agent) or physical / mental capability (someone isn't weaker just because they are a woman). That all sounds nice on paper. But it often doesn't play out that way in game.

[triste]

Yes, well said. I too am not a sexist and I too am tired of talking about it. I applaud all of us who are not sexists and are trying our best.

[Harmless]

Well, those players who have  tried to be heard on such topics (which shall not be named )  have long voted with their feet.

We should be thankful when inactive players return to share feedback because it is a chance to answer staff's questions as to why they left, and they are definitely missed, especially now when we have two cities again and some pretty obvious depopulation problems.

[triste]

They shouldn't have to vote with their feet and leave when they can report problems and get problematic people removed for the benefit of themselves and others. They shouldn't have to vaguebook when they can, again, report things precisely.

If they HAVE reported things and we are really seeing this grandstanding about sexism as a last resort, then yes, that is sad. I am not sure that is the case here, unless someone tells me it is. I have seen reports about sexism and homophobia resolved well by staff to speak from my experience and I think folks may just need to use the right mechanisms.

[ReturnOfTheKing]

And the community doesn't require someone like you to be judge, jury and executioner - be all and end all of opinion and insult it like you have any right to. Ta-ta.

[Barsook]

Honestly, we should just avoid derailing this thread with another thread about sexism in the game. I apologize for contributing to that derail.

Can we please have a new thread for this? Guys, please follow what the OP said to do, make new topics!

[Delirium]

I am so exhausted with the onus being on those who experience sexism to explain that it does exist and then often to have to argue with people who refuse to see it. Why do I have to educate people? How about you educate yourselves? Trust me those gifs were much more productive than what I wanted to say. Anyone remember a certain ask the staff question that sparked threads re:sexism which got repeatedly locked and saw many of the carefully written posts I made get deleted wholesale? You will just have to forgive me if I am very tired of repeating myself.

Then the question never even got answered.

You can PM me if you prefer.

How does that solve the issue of me having to repeatedly discuss the topic? I'm sorry dude. It's not you; it's the dead horse.

I almost quit playing because of the insane response to this topic and I do not have the emotional bandwidth to delve into it again. Do some forum and discord searches if you want to see my opinion on things. They're there.

It is not my responsibility to educate you all. I tried. I'm done.

[Dar]

Okey.

[valeria]

Dropping a couple of resouces here.

Why marginalized groups respond defensively when you ask them to educate you about social issues:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qGlg0nSSYNs

https://hbr.org/2019/07/its-not-your-coworkers-job-to-teach-you-about-social-issues

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/06/08/black-friends-educate-racism/

Articles about implicit bias (different from explicit bias!), which helps explain why people can be unaware of systemic issues:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=WEKd_7QL-q8 (start at 30 seconds)

https://www.simplypsychology.org/implicit-bias.html

This one is interesting and relevant:

https://time.com/transgender-men-sexism/

If you think you're above sexism or it's not an issue, take a bias test to prove you're correct?

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/

[Attana]

Sexism definition from wiki: Sexism is prejudice or discrimination based on one's sex or gender. Sexism can affect anyone, but it primarily affects women and girls. It has been linked to stereotypes and gender roles, and may include the belief that one sex or gender is intrinsically superior to another. 

As someone who plays strictly female roles, I have seen sexism happen not only to other female PCs but had it happen to mine as well on several occasions.  The most recent I can't really speak about as of yet  - but I can say that the sexism led to a very pivotal change in my characters storyline, and very nearly led to me storing. The complete absurdity of the situation and how it affected my PC went mostly ignored by the player base around at that time, despite it's obvious sexest nature.

When I witness and see sexest comments or situations in game - I point it out.  I back up the person it's happening to, and everyone else should as well.  In Zalanthas sexism isn't and shouldn't be a thing.  Period.  The idea that a woman can't do something a man can, no matter what her circumstances are, shouldn't be the mindset of anyone rolling around in game - and I'll continue to call people out IG when I see it.

[triste]

<3 the previous post, sorry you go through it but thank you for doing something about it.

[Dar]

I see it on occasion. Some dude would say, "you hit like a girl" or slut shaming, or sex work shaming, etc. And invariably eeeeveeerrrryone around him immediately beat the crap out of that person. Not literally, but very pointedly ridiculing and disparaging. Sometimes literally, although ICly it often doesn't make sense, but done to carry the point across.   That's usually the result of expressed sexism that I've witnessed.

I haven't encountered this, but I'm certain a situation like this happen. A noble takes up a female aide in his employ and then tries to begin a sexual interaction with her. The aide refuses, the noble fires the aide.  You can exchange noble and Aide to whatever. Sargeant/runner, Agent/crafter. Guild boss/anyone.  I imagine that kind of stuff happens. Is this the expression of sexism that the female part of the playerbase is encountering. Or is it something I'm not even considering?

[Narf]

Keep in mind that not all instances of sexism are going to be overt or obvious to anyone around the character that's dealing with it. This is because the effects of it are cumulative, so something small and insignifcant looking from the outside is being piled on to the dozen or so other small and insignificant looking things they already dealt with this month. This "straw on the camel's back" process will tend to make complaints look hypersensitive, when in fact they're not /really/ reacting to one incidence but rather dozens that have accumulated to reach a breaking point.

You can't witness this from the outside because you're never going to see enough of the problem unless you're the target. Best you're gonna do is see a little piece here or there, and likely individually the pieces are so little you won't even notice them anyways.

This sort of problem is very difficult to solve because one person's actions aren't the cause. It's more of a cultural issue.

[Nao]

I imagine that kind of stuff happens. Is this the expression of sexism that the female part of the playerbase is encountering. Or is it something I'm not even considering?

I can't say much about IC sexism because I rarely play female PCs. But something I come across frequently in the outside world is assumption of incompetence.

It's so widespread that I can't really blame anyone for slipping up every once in a while.  I know that I've unfairly dismissed a female coworker, assuming she didn't know what she was doing until she proved me wrong.  People aren't immune just because they don't want to be sexist. It's often completely unintentional, and they become very embarassed and apologetic once they realize what they're doing.

[triste]

It's often completely unintentional, and they become very embarassed and apologetic once they realize what they're doing.

This is the key. It is best to give people feedback directly. If you don't feel comfortable OOCing or handling it IG, use the request tool and staff can help.

We can hold eachother accountable rather than erecting and fighting scarecrows and boogeymen.

[Bebop]

It's just not worth it to go into.  Nevermind.

[Attana]

I personally don't have an issue with noble/aide, sergeant/runner, agent/crafter - because it could be flipped and be a woman Sergeant/agent/noble hiring a male subordinate and pursuing something sexual or romantic and then firing him if he refuses.  Do I think that's cool to do?  No.  Sexism isn't just about sex when it's an imbalance of power (rank) being male over female, it involves all other manner of circumstances and issues. 

Women aren't weaker than men.  Women are just as capable of kicking ass and taking names.  Women can be ruthless.  Women can be more skilled than men either in combat, crafting, hunting.  Women can do /anything/ IG - and the fact that they can have kids, and don't have dicks  should have no impact, whatsoever, and shouldn't factor into anything.

[Dar]

This genuinely makes no sense. This is internet. How can a person be OOCly prejudiced against a character that is codedly female when the likelyhood of that character being played by a male is just as high as a female player.


I've played under a multitude of female leaders. Including Attana's Nora. Bunch of guild bosses that were just as feared, a bunch of Borsail nobles were often female and many of them were awesome. Last one that I can think of was that one who liked to torture people.  That Pink haired Sargeant was absolutely and completely awesome. Probably my favorite Byn Sargeant. Sorry for all the mind bending.


I apologize. But this will not get fixed when causes are all ambiguous and unspecified and results are concrete and often catastrophically fatal.  Calling these things out in a concrete fashion is the only way to deal with this.

I miss Adhira. I feel like with her around, these things would've never reached an impactful measure.

[Narf]

This genuinely makes no sense. This is internet. How can a person be OOCly prejudiced against a character that is codedly female when the likelyhood of that character being played by a male is just as high as a female player.

This assumes that your culprit has set out to marginalize women as efficiently and logically as possible.

I don't know that that's a good assumption to make for how sexism actually works in the brain.

[Attana]

Most of my instances were sexest comments made about women.

I can't get into some of the recent instances I've seen right now, due to IC not being over a year, but it's there, and it sucks.  Maybe not by you, Dar, but others.  I don't know if the players are new and it was a slip of the tongue/fingers, or what - but just because some people don't believe it's there or don't see it, doesn't mean that it's 100% not there.

I haven't put in any player complaints about it, so I don't know how staff go about handling it, but I do hope it's addressed when there are valid concerns.

[Dar]

Most of my instances were sexest comments made about women.

I can't get into some of the recent instances I've seen right now, due to IC not being over a year, but it's there, and it sucks.  Maybe not by you, Dar, but others.  I don't know if the players are new and it was a slip of the tongue/fingers, or what - but just because some people don't believe it's there or don't see it, doesn't mean that it's 100% not there.

I haven't put in any player complaints about it, so I don't know how staff go about handling it, but I do hope it's addressed when there are valid concerns.

Could you have just killed that person?



This situation kind of makes me think of a novel, "Beyond Horizons" written by Heinlein.  In it, people were very polite and cordial with each other. Mainly because pistol duels were legal and everyone were carrying. And no matter how quick one person is, sooner or later they'd either learn how to be polite, or they'd die.

[Citizen Puddi]

Most of my instances were sexest comments made about women.

I can't get into some of the recent instances I've seen right now, due to IC not being over a year, but it's there, and it sucks.  Maybe not by you, Dar, but others.  I don't know if the players are new and it was a slip of the tongue/fingers, or what - but just because some people don't believe it's there or don't see it, doesn't mean that it's 100% not there.

I haven't put in any player complaints about it, so I don't know how staff go about handling it, but I do hope it's addressed when there are valid concerns.

Could you have just killed that person?



This situation kind of makes me think of a novel, "Beyond Horizons" written by Heinlein.  In it, people were very polite and cordial with each other. Mainly because pistol duels were legal and everyone were carrying. And no matter how quick one person is, sooner or later they'd either learn how to be polite, or they'd die.

Eh... It kinda shouldn't come to that in the first place tbh.

Sexism in Zalanthas shouldn't exist, not out of fear of retribution-- but because it's simply not a concept in the world. Or shouldn't be, as far as documentation goes.

I'd imagine this applies to anyone's expression of sex or gender, be it a masculine woman, a feminine man, or anything in between. Nobody should be shackled with social restrictions based on anything relating to any of that.

That's always been my interpretation, at least.

[Halaster]

I haven't put in any player complaints about it, so I don't know how staff go about handling it, but I do hope it's addressed when there are valid concerns.

If everyone takes that stance, then it never gets reported and we may not ever know.  Don't hope someone else will report it.

[Attana]

I haven't put in any player complaints about it, so I don't know how staff go about handling it, but I do hope it's addressed when there are valid concerns.

If everyone takes that stance, then it never gets reported and we may not ever know.  Don't hope someone else will report it.

I chalk up my hesitancy to put in player complaints, in regard to this topic, to seeing posts from others who have done so and had less than ideal responses.  The idea of getting a blasé response to something that is a big deal to me, I think would do more harm and push me away from the game even more, than if I just sucked it up and forced myself to get over it.

[williamson]

It's my hope that people who play this game have a good time and that more players play the game AND that old players who left return while enjoying themselves.

Those of us who are here to play have voluntarily come to a setting of harshness with the tag line of murder, corruption, and betrayal. In my experience, the best villains are other players. By definition, there will always be some conflict between players in the game. This conflict can take many, many forms only limited by our imagination.

To some degree, I think we might be talking about different topics with different solutions and different opinions.

To start, some of the above complaints sound like classism more than sexism. The example of slut shaming might fit this to me. The game rules actual encourage classism. See the Allanaki hierarchy helpfile. If you spend time in low class areas, hanging out with elves, halfbreeds, or mages, you should expect some verbal harassment. If you are a sex worker with this clientele, you should expect the same. However, if you are the concubine of a powerful noble, I would hope such insults are soon followed with a nice public caning or worse punishment. Should slut shaming the concubine of a noble be a violation of the game rules? Personally, I don't think so. It should all be handled with in game roleplay or the player vs player conflict resolution code (see helpfile backstab).

Then there is the topic of sexism or prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination based on gender. The most egregious sexism in the past was the division of the Tuluki templarate by gender. The women were white robes and the men were red robes. The staff have corrected this. Today, you can play any role in the game regardless of your gender such as templar, noble, mage, criminal, tribal, sergeant, or merchant. The game statistics are equally random regardless of gender. Your paymaster pays you the same regardless of gender choice. I haven't heard anyone say I can't play or do something because I played this gender.

However, clearly some players are upset about their characters in gender roles. The problem sounds like sexual harassment or unwanted sexual advances more than sexism. To me, sexual harassment is a form of corruption which is a part of the game. Today, if you do it, I don't think your breaking the rules. However, you are certainly playing the role of villain.

As an obvious oversimplification, we as players are free to play any gender we want. If you choose a male character, you can almost completely avoid sexual harassment. So the problem deals with players who want to play female characters and not be sexually harassed in game. Personally, I think the only way to prevent this is with an OOC consent system. You could set this yourself. Other players could use consent (keyword), even via the Way, and see your settings. Unwanted sexual advances or harassment could then be prevented and a clear rule easily enforced by staff.

Finally, I know there have been requests from some players for additional language censorship. Of note was the long thread by Delirium a few months ago. I am personally against more language censorship. I realize that a lot of language we can use in game can be insulting, degrading, and hurtful. However, in a game with player conflict, sometimes those words are needed for impactful storytelling. As I often do, let me tell you of the story of one of my previous characters...

Long ago, I played a runaway slave who acquired a large bounty on his head. I was often the target (unsolicited I might add) of bounty hunters, particularly the Byn. After killing one Byn Sergeant, I arranged a truce between my gang and the Byn. This was fine until one day, without warning, a new Byn Sergant ambushed me and my newbie friends with his whole squad. I survived but was quite angry. I was mad about being betrayed, about being forced into hiding, and about the death of my newbie friends. However, there was little I could do. Eventually,  I decided to contact the Sergeant and unleash an endless stream of telepathic insults and rants. I called them a fool, a coward, an erdlu rider, elf blooded, a kank fucker, an asshole, a pussy, a motherfucker, a fatherfucker (because I was down with the "Teaches of Peaches"), a bitch, and a cunt. I wayed anything and everything I could to insult the Sergeant. They would raise a barrier and I would crush it. Rinse and repeat. This went on for several RL days. I wanted this character to understand they were the target of unrelenting mul rage. Eventually,  I stopped and realized that dead Byn Sergeants would only be replaced. I needed to get to the root of the problem so I redirected my anger. Should such insults and language be banned? I don't think so. When you betray and murder people, there should be consequences even if it's harsh, hurtful, and mean insults. As it turns out, the Sergeant was a male character. Had the Sergeant been female I would have been fine saying the same thing. My words were mean but not sexist. Do we want to ban mean words that sometimes upset people? I do not because sometimes I want to use mean words that upset people. To what extent or word choices are too much is a matter of opinion that's difficult to police.

These opinions are mine and mine alone. Any use or redistribution of my thoughts without the expressed written consent of Major Leage Baseball is strictly prohibited.

[Jihelu]

I think there is also a difference between sexism and gender roles.
The Tuluki split of sexes was a gender role kinda thing...that existed in a society that doesn't really have established roles. It wasn't like Tuluk had this view that 'Women are more wise/psionic' and 'Men are more strong physically', and having this 'We are equal but good at different things' mentality. Tuluk has the 'There are no gender roles' Arm view...then randomly had a split sex templarate.

You can do gender roles decently/differently in tribal settings, groups that already violate the norm of Zalanthas (Having religion/spirits/gods, being weirdos, etc.)
I remember having my own tribal character come from a culture who did snake-stuff. The women were larger than the males (Probably a biological thing that happened prior to the snake cult stuff...probably), and were the leaders of the tribe. The men were smaller and engaged in hunting rites to try and prove themselves to the women (Generally by hunting, could be other things). Women had multiple male partners at any given time. Was a whole thing.
In the context of the society he grew up in, and as a tribal thing, it winds up being a thing that exists.

If this sort of thing just randomly existed inside of Allanak, if the Allanaki nobles were all like this, it would make very little sense or be a head scratcher.

That being said what I mentioned isn't really sexism.
I haven't ever experienced sexism or seen it happen in game.
There's a brief memory in my head or two of someone bad mouthing sex work and I recall myself and other people at the bar were like 'What's wrong with being a whore?' but I don't have any other experiences related to it.
I acknowledge this doesn't mean that it never happens, it may be more common than what I know of course, but just giving my own experiences.
I also only ever play guys so I've never had the chance for it to happen to my own characters

[Knight of Knives]

Long ago, I played a runaway slave who acquired a large bounty on his head. I was often the target (unsolicited I might add) of bounty hunters, particularly the Byn. After killing one Byn Sergeant, I arranged a truce between my gang and the Byn. This was fine until one day, without warning, a new Byn Sergant ambushed me and my newbie friends with his whole squad. I survived but was quite angry. I was mad about being betrayed, about being forced into hiding, and about the death of my newbie friends. However, there was little I could do. Eventually,  I decided to contact the Sergeant and unleash an endless stream of telepathic insults and rants. I called them a fool, a coward, an erdlu rider, elf blooded, a kank fucker, an asshole, a pussy, a motherfucker, a fatherfucker (because I was down with the "Teaches of Peaches"), a bitch, and a cunt. I wayed anything and everything I could to insult the Sergeant. They would raise a barrier and I would crush it. Rinse and repeat. This went on for several RL days. I wanted this character to understand they were the target of unrelenting mul rage. Eventually,  I stopped and realized that dead Byn Sergeants would only be replaced. I needed to get to the root of the problem so I redirected my anger. Should such insults and language be banned? I don't think so. When you betray and murder people, there should be consequences even if it's harsh, hurtful, and mean insults. As it turns out, the Sergeant was a male character. Had the Sergeant been female I would have been fine saying the same thing. My words were mean but not sexist. Do we want to ban mean words that sometimes upset people? I do not because sometimes I want to use mean words that upset people. To what extent or word choices are too much is a matter of opinion that's difficult to police.
]

I don't think your story illustrates what you think it's illustrating.

[Strongheart]

I miss Adhira. I feel like with her around, these things would've never reached an impactful measure.

I miss Adhira too people actually adhered to her

[Dar]

Long ago, I played a runaway slave who acquired a large bounty on his head. I was often the target (unsolicited I might add) of bounty hunters, particularly the Byn. After killing one Byn Sergeant, I arranged a truce between my gang and the Byn. This was fine until one day, without warning, a new Byn Sergant ambushed me and my newbie friends with his whole squad. I survived but was quite angry. I was mad about being betrayed, about being forced into hiding, and about the death of my newbie friends. However, there was little I could do. Eventually,  I decided to contact the Sergeant and unleash an endless stream of telepathic insults and rants. I called them a fool, a coward, an erdlu rider, elf blooded, a kank fucker, an asshole, a pussy, a motherfucker, a fatherfucker (because I was down with the "Teaches of Peaches"), a bitch, and a cunt. I wayed anything and everything I could to insult the Sergeant. They would raise a barrier and I would crush it. Rinse and repeat. This went on for several RL days. I wanted this character to understand they were the target of unrelenting mul rage. Eventually,  I stopped and realized that dead Byn Sergeants would only be replaced. I needed to get to the root of the problem so I redirected my anger. Should such insults and language be banned? I don't think so. When you betray and murder people, there should be consequences even if it's harsh, hurtful, and mean insults. As it turns out, the Sergeant was a male character. Had the Sergeant been female I would have been fine saying the same thing. My words were mean but not sexist. Do we want to ban mean words that sometimes upset people? I do not because sometimes I want to use mean words that upset people. To what extent or word choices are too much is a matter of opinion that's difficult to police.
]

I don't think your story illustrates what you think it's illustrating.

What do you mean?

[Strongheart]

"There is sexism in Armageddon." "What? I don't get it, what do you mean? I haven't seen any of it."

Every single time lol

[Dar]

Reading this right now.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,19685.25.html

[Delirium]

2006 was 15 years ago.

How about reading the links that Valeria helpfully posted, if you're genuinely interested in educating yourself?

[Ender]

I called them a fool, a coward, an erdlu rider, elf blooded, a kank fucker, an asshole, a pussy, a motherfucker, a fatherfucker (because I was down with the "Teaches of Peaches"), a bitch, and a cunt. I wayed anything and everything I could to insult the Sergeant. They would raise a barrier and I would crush it. Rinse and repeat. This went on for several RL days. I wanted this character to understand they were the target of unrelenting mul rage. Eventually,  I stopped and realized that dead Byn Sergeants would only be replaced. I needed to get to the root of the problem so I redirected my anger. Should such insults and language be banned? I don't think so. When you betray and murder people, there should be consequences even if it's harsh, hurtful, and mean insults. As it turns out, the Sergeant was a male character. Had the Sergeant been female I would have been fine saying the same thing. My words were mean but not sexist. Do we want to ban mean words that sometimes upset people? I do not because sometimes I want to use mean words that upset people. To what extent or word choices are too much is a matter of opinion that's difficult to police.

These opinions are mine and mine alone. Any use or redistribution of my thoughts without the expressed written consent of Major Leage Baseball is strictly prohibited.

Here is the thing about gendered insults.  They are hurtful on an OOC level to many people, much like using racial slurs would be.  Though on an in character level they should not have the weight they do because of a lack of sexism.

Resorting to using genedered insults reeks of trying to upset the player rather than the character.  It breaks from the notion that you are collaborating with another player to tell the story, and seems more like you as the player are trying to upset the player of that character with those insults and win the encounter at all costs instead of just expressing your characters frustration to another character.

If I had to use an over the top example, lets say somehow you knew a player was offended by being called an airplane rider, but you knew airplanes didn't exist in Armageddon, but you still really wanted to upset the player's character and constantly got the results you wanted by calling them an "Airplane rider" to get that effect.  That's what it's like whenever you use gendered insults at other characters.  It's super jarring and takes me out of the scene whenever I see them used.

[Dar]

2006 was 15 years ago.

How about reading the links that Valeria helpfully posted, if you're genuinely interested in educating yourself?

What do you mean? I've read them. They more talk about why some people choose to not explain their statements about sexism and suggest to do their own research, allowing others to explain their points of view when they're comfortable, or if they choose to. 

Which is their right. But only leaves me with an option of shrugging and dismissing their opinions. Not really something I like doing, so I'm doing some more personal research. I can't google this, because we're talking about Armageddon. But I 'can' search.  The link I posted is a second post that has the word 'sexism' if you search it. The first one is regarding the 'C' Word.


PS: I hated the bias test by the way. First it trained my muscle memory to equal 'bad' with 'gay', while in reality their commonality was that it was the button on the right. And then urged me to answer as fast as possible. Still ended up with results of 'you dont give a fuck', but my fingers definitely paused a multitude of times when I had to fight back muscle memory. 

[Strongheart]

2006 was 15 years ago.

How about reading the links that Valeria helpfully posted, if you're genuinely interested in educating yourself?

What do you mean? I've read them. They more talk about why some people choose to not explain their statements about sexism and suggest to do their own research, allowing others to explain their points of view when they're comfortable, or if they choose to. 

Which is their right. But only leaves me with an option of shrugging and dismissing their opinions. Not really something I like doing, so I'm doing some more personal research. I can't google this, because we're talking about Armageddon. But I 'can' search.  The link I posted is a second post that has the word 'sexism' if you search it. The first one is regarding the 'C' Word.


PS: I hated the bias test by the way. First it trained my muscle memory to equal 'bad' with 'gay', while in reality their commonality was that it was the button on the right. And then urged me to answer as fast as possible. Still ended up with results of 'you dont give a fuck', but my fingers definitely paused a multitude of times when I had to fight back muscle memory. 

Very well, Dar. What have you been accused of being sexist for? Lay out bullet points of each accusation. Then we can discuss how that's sexist and how to remedy the situation so that you no longer are participating in the negativity. Context helps when educating someone, keep in mind I myself am a male.

[Dar]

Me? I wasnt accused of being sexist.

The post talking about it got recently edited out, because ... they do not want to get into it. But general descriptions of, "go on breaks due to casual sexism in and out of character." and "petty IG squabbles, a sexist experience and a race for coded power."

I think it's only natural for me to go, "wtf? Sexism experience in and out of character? the fuck!?!?"


And some other mentions. I mean, we had two other threads about sexism and calling it out show up within a span of two rl days.

Harmless made a pretty interesting post that touched on Contract Marriages.

[Strongheart]

I see well the out of character sexism I believe is a sensitive topic for them as it correlates to a community member with power. I won't pontificate further but there's a reason they don't bring it up here because it'll be suppressed anyway posts just as Delirium mentioned. It would just create unnecessary resentment and stress for them

[Dar]

Well. Sooo ... what's the course of action here? The person who raised the issue withdrew their statements. So should I just pretend nothing happened and go on with my life?

[Strongheart]

Well. Sooo ... what's the course of action here? The person who raised the issue withdrew their statements. So should I just pretend nothing happened and go on with my life?

Completely up to you. My suggestion would be to support a better atmosphere when it comes to this topic in particular. Were there a female in a high level staff position (the kind of female who actually understands sexism not the kind of female who is numb and apathetic to it) like the days of Adhira and Sanvean, this would certainly impact the current environment for the better, I feel. Currently, we do not have any female admins whatsoever.

[Veselka]

The course of action is to take people at their word, and if they experienced something to believe they experienced it, regardless of your own personal experiences and way of life. There's no benefit to defending the idea that ArmageddonMUD has solved sexism. It hasn't. It has taken great strides amid the MU*sphere, particularly when some anti-sexist rules were placed in the game in the mid to late 90's. It's heads and shoulders better than MANY other RPI's out there. That should be applauded. But there is always more work to do.

Sexism persists. As it does in the real world. As it does in the pay gap. As it does in not taking women seriously in the workplace, second guessing them and their knowledge, and asking unqualified men for their opinions right after they explain something. Sexism is not always a stone hammer smashed over your head obvious, just as racism is not always obvious. Implicit bias, implicit sexism, inherited sexism, mirroring, mimicry...There's a lot that goes into what makes something 'sexist' or 'gendered'.

I have worked for a long time with my wife who is a co-owner of the business we run together. You would be surprised how often people second guess what she tells them (with more knowledge on the subject than me) because she is a woman. She gets called 'girly' and 'sweetheart' often. People (typically old white men) think they are complimenting her. They aren't. Though she is brilliant in the subjects of the business we purvey, she is often reduced to being 'eye candy' and 'good looking' and 'the assistant'.

That kind of sexism is incredibly pervasive in the game as well. It is subtle. People think they are being complimentary when they absolutely aren't. Women are absolutely treated differently than men when in the same position of power.

I have played a Male and Female version of a Templar. How many times do you think the Male Templar was threatened with rape, skullfucking, or acts of sexual humiliation? 0. With a Male Power Player, you don't need to think about it. It isn't brought up unless YOU bring it up. With a female power player? It is brought up. Often. Incredibly often. Insinuations. Clearly, you must be sleeping with someone powerful. Of course you would want to have sex with me. Like...I've never had romantic overtures implied, or passed on, to my Male Power Players. I've ALWAYS had romantic overtures implied or passed on to my Female Power Players. It's in the little things. Again. Play a female PC sometime if you haven't before, and you will glimpse a whole different game.

A LOT OF THE TIME...People don't know they are doing it. It isn't done maliciously. It is done out of ignorance. And that can be corrected through education, if it is something that person wants to be educated about.

That Williamson post about his Mul constantly threatening the Byn Sergeant with gendered insults is...Well. I've experienced the other end of that. It is absolutely stupid shit to have to endure, particularly because you can't just stay barriered forever to do the rest of your IC/OOC function of a leadership position. Like seriously, fuck off with that edge lord shit. Love you dude, you're a great player, but that is not something to be proud of or point to as 'cool RP'. If you're pissed at someone for killing your friends, go kill them, don't just repeatedly call them a cunt over the Way.

We aren't perfect. I'm certainly not perfect. I've used gendered insults in the game. I also noted that when Delirium and others called out the use of that word and how it was a gendered insult...I took stock of myself and decided "Yeah...I'm just not going to use that word anymore. No need."

[Tranquil]

I don't really have a point to share here, but I've seen like four threads exactly like this that do nothing but generate ten pages of basically the exact same points molded into different posts, against the exact same counter-points molded into different posts, that then dissipate into nothing meaningful.

I totally think sexism is still prevalent in Zalanthas, after playing both male and female characters. A vast majority of these instances were.. unintentional. People simply not knowing. Believe it or not, most people who play this game aren't young nor woke, but still don't want to make the other player uncomfortable or feel discriminated against. I would suggest PMing them, putting in a player complaint, or asking staff to step in.

Making repeat accusatory threads like these does pretty much nothing but make our game that has 50 people (on a good day) on peak mad at each other, and creates even more toxicity in our small community. I can't say I'm surprised when I see so many people say they simply don't browse the GDB or Discord anymore.

[Maso]

Believe it or not, most people who play this game aren't young nor woke, but still don't want to make the other player uncomfortable or feel discriminated against. I would suggest PMing them, putting in a player complaint, or asking staff to step in.

Making repeat accusatory threads like these does pretty much nothing but make our game that has 50 people (on a good day) on peak mad at each other, and creates even more toxicity in our small community. I can't say I'm surprised when I see so many people say they simply don't browse the GDB or Discord anymore.

So much this. I actually really like this community and find pretty much everyone to be super lovely people. It really upsets me when the whole community is painted with the same brush, and it's such a negative one - when really we could be doing more to address the issues in active, responsible and respectful ways without making it seem like our whole community is some depraved cesspit of toxicity.. it really.. isn't. It's so much better than so many other online communities which I think is evident in the high bar of expectations revealed here.

[Strongheart]

Well I hope we're not coming off as too abrasive or being holier-than-thou. The point is that patient steps can be made: healthy ones without judgement.

There's been low morale for what seems like a few months now, I can't pinpoint exactly what but I feel a lot of that will air out during the player-staff meeting.

[Usiku]

In response to the current conversations (and indeed past conversations) and in favour of transparency, I wanted to give a staff side perspective, so we can all be clear on where our community stands, where we stand as staff, what the rules of the community and the game are, what you can expect from us and the support that we need from you.

Sexism is an extremely challenging issue to counter in any community, be it online communities or the flesh and blood communities around us. This said, I believe we have come a long way and, especially over the last decade, have seen some leaps and bounds in gaming communities specifically (which unfortunately remained an unaddressed stronghold of sexism for far too long).

The Armageddon community was somewhat ahead of the curve in this, with rules against sexism in the community and thematically in the game being in place for over two decades. We also have a generally mature and intelligent player base who do not shy away from difficult discussions around social ethics and are consistent champions for inclusive behaviour. Personally, I like to feel that this is one of the more inclusive gaming communities (I have a much more unpleasant time if I try to get chatty on Call of Duty, for example). But regardless, counteracting sexism needs to be an ongoing effort, and it will likely be something we need to keep on top of until it is somehow eradicated from our real world societies.

There is no tolerance for sexism in our OOC community or our IC game. We will not immediately ban someone who missteps by bringing casual sexism into the game, but we will course-correct. Furthermore, abusive, blatant sexism or continued disregard for our rules will be taken very seriously. If a player cannot, or does not wish to, check themselves and learn to fit in with these rules then we absolutely will escalate to whatever point necessary to protect our community against this kind of behaviour.

The catch is: we are not omniscient. While we try to maintain a good overview of what is going on in-game, it is very easy for us to miss things. We can go back a little to corroborate or investigate but we do not see everything that is happening all of the time. This is where it has to be a community effort. If you are seeing or experiencing sexism in game (or outside of the game within the community) and you want us to be able to work towards a community that is free of it - then we need you to report it to us. Please do not think we will not take it seriously, we will. This also needs to be done in a timely manner to allow us to look into it. If you leave it weeks or months before reporting, then this makes it extremely difficult for us to deal with appropriately.

When you send in a serious request like this and maybe don't hear back from us for a few days, it is not because we are ignoring you or not taking you seriously. It is because we are investigating and discussing and sometimes tearing our hair out to try and figure out what the right thing to do is. Please do not think that we do not care, we care - a lot. Likewise, also understand that these kinds of issues are very challenging, for any community - expecting us to get it right every time, especially in the eyes of everyone's differing opinions, might be too much to expect, but we are always trying. If it was easy, sexism wouldn't exist anymore anywhere. It's not easy and it's not always black and white - but can I honestly say that the whole staffing team cares passionately about doing right by this game and our players. I cannot speak for how things may have been done at any other period in time, but I can speak for how things are right now.

There are multiple channels for contacting staff, the best way is always going to be via a request because then it will always be subject to oversight and proper procedure. However, if you are uncomfortable for any reason, you can reach out to a staff member you trust or feel more comfortable talking to and they can help you through the process of properly reporting it.

This is not staff vs players, this is a community that we are all part of and we need to work together.

[Bebop]

This all sounds good but when will there be some transparency on this?

Like can we actually post our requests where we've complained about sexism and effectively nothing has been done and then have a REAL conversation?  Because that's part of the issue is that these OOC rules to not discuss IG events in any context 1) foster a culture of secret OOC discussion and 2) prevent transparency that would out predatory behavior.

Off the top of my head I can think of

-My Borsail being called "hysterical" who was completely laconic.  Her rivalries were referred to as "quirri fights."  Or how she was pulled aside by a Templar and told to be "lady like" instead of hunting an escaped rantarri.  My character was then pulled into a staff meeting and I opted to store.

-How my female sixteen year old Bynner was stripped naked and flayed with a barbed whip without OOC consent.  When reported to staff they basically told me that somehow that didn't qualify for the torture consent rule.  Her male counterpart that left as a Runner was not beaten or tortured in anyway.

-Recent IG events where my characters male peer was treated with more privilege in a contextually equal situation ... wherein the response from staff was "if I look for sexism I'll find it."

-Or the fact I, and a briefly returning friend who then left, reported harassment from a staff member complete with back up documentation and effectively nothing was done to my knowledge.

Saying there's a zero tolerance policy and actually enacting a zero tolerance policy to protect people are two totally different things.  Because in my experience so far as a player of seventeen years there is very much a tolerance policy.


Every single one of these events I contacted staff on the matter even, as I said, getting pulled into a meeting.  And every single time nothing was done to protect me on an OOC or IC level.

And every single one of these events has occurred in the last two to three years.  This isn't ancient history.

[Dar]

Heya, Bebop

Do you know which staff members were involved in conversations regarding these situations?

[RavingTregils]

Woah guys, is that how you treated Bebop?

I was thinking this was the "somebody called me a cunt" problem which is kinda iffy (only place I have seen that word used is female vs female).

What happened to Bebop is NOT COOL. Fix it.

[Dar]

By 'you guys' you mean us all, RavenTregils.  It's not really a particular individual. It's the understanding and consensus of what's fine to do in the theme of harshness and brutality of the world setting and what is not at all fine to do, regardless of the setting.

[RavingTregils]

No, Dar, what Bebop describes is beyond the pale for me.

It's not "you called me a sissy so you are a misogynist pig". It's not policing words or dragging someone's RL problems into the game.

I see females in Zalanthas as Valeria in Conan the Barbarian (the original movie not the remake): scary deadly, equal in every way to a male. Hell, go google Dark Sun and look at the images. You won't see any apron wearing 1950's housewives.

I can't wrap my head around treating female characters as subordinate in a way that is completely out of step with the game world.
You might as well rename Nenyuk, House ATM and scatter ATM machines around. It does not belong in the game.

But on top of that, it's happening to a regular customer.
Me, I'm not important. I play, I don't, whatever. I'll never play a leadership pc, too much responsibility.
However, I've been around long enough to know handles on the gdb that have put a lot into this game over the years.
I can't wrap my head around an (for better word) organization that doesn't look out for their regular customers.

The consensus on how a female PC/NPC should be treated was laid out a long long time ago - in Dark Sun books/games/AD&D.
That's what I try to play to. That's what the game originally played to.

[Hestia]

This is a kind, sensitive reminder:

This thread is about a topic, not about any one individual's personal, detailed experiences.  I don't want to see any player feeling like they should have to defend their position with personal information.  So let's try to be more sensitive to that and not ask (or encourage) players to give more details, name names, etc.

[Dar]

There is some ambiguity regarding details. We can assume the worst. We can assume the best. Or we can discuss it like adults. We don't need to assign blame. We just need to move forward better.

For example. Bebops situation.

A templar set her noble aside and told her she needed to act more "lady like".  Does this mean she should have acted more "noble like" ?  As in leaving dirty dangerous work to commoners.  Or "lady like" in terms of how it's understood IRL?    Because the difference is staggering. One version is pretty accurate. The other unacceptable. But until we discuss this, people will assume the worst, or the best and neither one will know what's real.


Best way to fix this, should be a suggestion for Bebop to hush it out in private with staff. This is where these situations supposed to end. But ... I'm guessing they are not ending?

Between this thread and the one from 2006, it seems there is still talk of sexism. And it may be true, if you look for sexism, you'll find it. But from 2006 and 2021, it seems that things have gotten ... Worse?   I always saw Armageddon as ahead of the curve in this situation. But then I see let's say Delirium who is arguing with Bebop in 2006, saying that things are pretty good. And then Delirium in 2021 saying that things are not at all good.  I am honestly curious to see what is causing the difference.   Are people extra sensitive this year then back then? Or are people extra insensitive?  I think the topic deserves a conversation. And while it should be done privately. It seems like the private conversation did not solve the issue. Perhaps we should discuss individual cases to find the root of the problem and decide whether they are real issues, or truly a case of "if you seek it, you will find it."  If people are willing to discuss it.  Otherwise we are back to vaguebooking, trolling, inadequate conflict resolution, and inevitable player loss.

[Delirium]

One thing to consider while pondering this: we no longer have female staff in Administrator or Producer positions.

In particular, we no longer have people like Sanvean, who actively championed equality in gaming environments.

[Maso]

Between this thread and the one from 2006, it seems there is still talk of sexism. And it may be true, if you look for sexism, you'll find it. But from 2006 and 2021, it seems that things have gotten ... Worse?   I always saw Armageddon as ahead of the curve in this situation. But then I see let's say Delirium who is arguing with Bebop in 2006, saying that things are pretty good. And then Delirium in 2021 saying that things are not at all good.  I am honestly curious to see what is causing the difference.   Are people extra sensitive this year then back then? Or are people extra insensitive?

Honestly, I think things are infinitely better now than they were back then. I think the conversations now are more heated because the expectations are different and we are honing in on much smaller details, ones which actually span over blurred lines of understanding and agreement around the much bigger topic of what actually classifies as 'sexism'. It feels like now there is an expectation of 'perfect' behaviour.. which is frankly too much to expect. If you go around expecting everyone around you to be perfect, you're just going to be disappointed and angry all the time.

It's a pretty easy conversation to have when what you are debating is whether it's ok to say stuff like, "You hit like a woman." - it's straightforward. It's black and white and it's an easy call for community moderators to make.

When you have people zeroing in on the minutiae of semantics or trying to second guess motivations and intent, because that is the realm of sexism we are into now (where it is no longer so in your face and blatant - this is progress).. it becomes much harder. We also have a broad range of opinions that all fall into the 'not sexist' camp of what actually constitutes as sexism and so you have people getting into heated debates when they are essentially on the same side.

So far, the position that has rung truest for me has been what triste posted on other thread.  If you look for it, you will absolutely see it, often when it is not there. I also think it's super convenient to be able to say.. "Oh they're being like this to me because I'm female" rather than take a look at yourself and see if there might be other reasons that have nothing to do with gender (like.. maybe I was just an asshole?). I very very rarely encounter sexism and when I do it's blatant (e.g. the guy in the car lot ignoring me and talking to my husband who.. isn't fricking paying for the damn car). I don't look around me and see subtle sexism affecting my life (or my PCs IG) and when things don't go my way my mind just doesn't go there. And I'm pretty happy about that. If my PC got picked on and a male PC didn't.. or if some other dude got picked for a job and I didn't.. I'm just going to assume it's one of the other hundred possible reasons besides gender.

I'm not saying it doesn't exist in game.. I'm sure it does, but I struggle to see it as a systemic problem because it isn't in my face. Although, I suppose it could just be that it's worse during peak and I get to skip out on being exposed to that.

I definitely do not want to see these 'cases' hashed out publicly.. that isn't for us. That feels like a witch hunt. It feels like poisoning the well. And I have zero clue what that would achieve besides just further upsetting people. It's also not fair on the other people involved who may or may not be here to defend themselves or may simply not have the energy to. There are two sides to every story, and I am happy for that to sit firmly with the folks who can actually get a grip on both sides.

[Delirium]

To be clear: I don't think it's worse. I think that in 2006 I did not play the sorts of roles that often encountered overt sexism, and I was also in my early 20's and assumed behavior that I would not accept as okay now was okay then. I did have my female character's virginity literally offered to a male Templar as a political bribe and, while I felt weird about it OOC, didn't even think to complain. If that happened today, I would have 100% gone on a fucking rampage.

I think today's game is better and more mature. I am still going to call out sexist crap when I see it. As someone posted previously, it often more subtle, and in general, trying to give the benefit of the doubt and assume equality is going to make for a better time, a healthier community, and a more enjoyable game. Even so, there are cases where it becomes transparently obvious that a player is carrying over OOC attitudes that are inappropriate to the world of Zalanthas.

The cases are sometimes egregious, but are more often minor incidents that build up over time. Reporting such incidents is difficult because the player does not want to be seen as over-reacting, or to seem like they're raising a fuss over nothing (since the incidents are usually small but cumulative), but then they are asked: why didn't you report? The answer to that, all too often, is, "I was trying to give the player the benefit of the doubt", or "I didn't want to seem like a problematic player who complains over small things," and that is where, I think, we can improve. In some cases, it very well may be that the person who perceived sexism was incorrect, and it was a matter of misunderstanding intent or not having the full picture. In other cases, it may be that they are correct, and the situation was flying under staff's radar-- and so unless something is said, it will simply continue unchecked. In the end, honest communication is key, and so is being willing to accept and admit that you might have been wrong in your perceptions, whether you are the accused or the accuser.

In recent years, save for "the Great C-word Debacle", the examples I've seen are less blatant. Where we still need work, I think, is primarily in ensuring people (women AND men) feel safe coming forward with any concerns they have. It was mentioned that people don't tend to report this: that is most likely because the player who would report fears being seen as a "problem player" or fears reprisal for bringing the matter up, so it seems easier and safer to stay quiet.

Sexism does exist, and probably always will, though it is often a bit sneakier. It leans more toward subtle double standards, how much attention your character gets, how seriously they're taken, and how authoritative behavior is perceived. I do personally suspect that most cases of overt sexism can be linked to a small subset of players rather than it being a widely pervasive issue throughout the entire playerbase, but since it isn't a large playerbase, it seems recurrent.

To Maso's point, looking for it will only poison the well, yes, but trying to pretend it doesn't exist at all won't help either.

As I mentioned in another thread, it is my belief that encouraging open and honest communication and a positive mindset is going to help the most. If there are concerns about a situation that "just doesn't feel right", talking with staff about it sooner rather than later, and as calmly and objectively as possible, is probably the best route to getting the matter settled so that either a) the offender in question can be course-corrected, or b) the situation can be explained as a misunderstanding, and why. It would be even better if these cases were reviewed by a mixed group of male, female, and/or non-binary staff.

tl;dr things are less blatantly sexist, but we can still improve. Communication and validation are important.

[Dune Bunny]

I tend to file player complaints when I see something that I feel is against the documentation for sexism. Never too accusatory, but a "X said my pc should do the dishes, because that's what women do, right? I feel that might be against the norms of Zalanthas and if so, maybe the player can be made aware?" - sort of request.

Staff won't discuss the resolution of such requests with the filing party, but I can say for certain that in multiple cases of this, I've seen actual positive changes from the player I filed against in their role-play and their immersion  of the documented world.

Perhaps I've been lucky in seeing this, as some people might take such a complaint the wrong way and retaliate in an immature manner, but it's been nice to see in my experience.

So definitely report it, even if it's a thing we gloss over easily IRL, such as, 'You hit like a woman!'. Staff seem to be more than happy these days, in my experience, to help players understand why such statements don't fit the documentation.

On top of that, some of the players that make these out-of-documentation sexist statements might honestly not be considering that what they're saying is actually sexist. A complaint request where staff can speak to said player might be a nice eye-opener for said player, and foster them being part of a better atmosphere going forward.

I've never had staff respond to me on a report to tell me that I shouldn't have made it, or that it was an inappropriate complaint. It has been pure encouragement from what I've seen, so as someone that has had a pretty positive experience with it, I encourage any of you to do the same when you witness such in game. Provide a brief log of the interaction, and your feelings as to why you feel it to be sexist, and staff will go from there. 

Just my 2 'sids.  <3

[Dar]

That's been my experience in my player complaints as well. I would file and get a ,"will look into this". That is really enough. I imagine often enough the staff won't even mention that it was a player complaint and go something like, "It's been noticed by us that you've blah blah blah" the player won't even know this was brought upon by a complaint. They'd just assume a staffer was watching and made a note about it. Often enough that too also happens.

[Fenneko]

Because I was personally involved in Bebop's sixteen year old Bynner whipping: the justification that bloody barbed whipping was OK even without getting consent that I recall hearing from staff at the time was that it was not necessary to get consent for the whipping due to whipping being "just a coded action," not an emoted action. Reasoning being you don't need consent to type "kill" so the same is true of whips. At least, that is what I recall staff saying back then about it. (trust me, my character was immediately involved with the whole thing at the time so I recall this clearly). 

Such reasoning seemed very flimsy to me, given that the coded actions certainly give a lot of visceral detail as is when used with a whip. As it states in the rules, if a character doesn't consent to torture you skip the scene, fade it, don't give details, but can still roleplay consequences of it. if there is some kind of coded penalty you want to give, fade the entire scene and ask staff to enact the coded consequences if any on the target and return to the scene after such an action took place and don't do any emotes to detail it. (or, think of another IC action besides whip torture, on the part of the whip bearer, if the victim did not give consent, always an option too).

In my opinion player complaints raised by Bebop at that time were valid and some kind of disciplinary action should have happened. But they weren't, and in this case the reasoning seems to be that there was a sharp power difference between runner and Byn Sergeant (and all those involved who determined her character deserved the whipping). I can't help but think that the power differential had something to do with it.

[Halaster]

Locking this thread.

Staff policy is that we do not comment or give out details about specific incidents for many reasons, most of which are around the protection of players and their privacy.. This conversation has delved into discussing individual topics that when only viewed from one side gives a biased view of certain people who are unable to respond to defend themselves.  It seems unfair to let it continue.