From Feedback to Sexism

[Bebop]

It's just not worth it to go into.  Nevermind.

[Attana]

I personally don't have an issue with noble/aide, sergeant/runner, agent/crafter - because it could be flipped and be a woman Sergeant/agent/noble hiring a male subordinate and pursuing something sexual or romantic and then firing him if he refuses.  Do I think that's cool to do?  No.  Sexism isn't just about sex when it's an imbalance of power (rank) being male over female, it involves all other manner of circumstances and issues. 

Women aren't weaker than men.  Women are just as capable of kicking ass and taking names.  Women can be ruthless.  Women can be more skilled than men either in combat, crafting, hunting.  Women can do /anything/ IG - and the fact that they can have kids, and don't have dicks  should have no impact, whatsoever, and shouldn't factor into anything.

[Dar]

This genuinely makes no sense. This is internet. How can a person be OOCly prejudiced against a character that is codedly female when the likelyhood of that character being played by a male is just as high as a female player.


I've played under a multitude of female leaders. Including Attana's Nora. Bunch of guild bosses that were just as feared, a bunch of Borsail nobles were often female and many of them were awesome. Last one that I can think of was that one who liked to torture people.  That Pink haired Sargeant was absolutely and completely awesome. Probably my favorite Byn Sargeant. Sorry for all the mind bending.


I apologize. But this will not get fixed when causes are all ambiguous and unspecified and results are concrete and often catastrophically fatal.  Calling these things out in a concrete fashion is the only way to deal with this.

I miss Adhira. I feel like with her around, these things would've never reached an impactful measure.

[Narf]

This genuinely makes no sense. This is internet. How can a person be OOCly prejudiced against a character that is codedly female when the likelyhood of that character being played by a male is just as high as a female player.

This assumes that your culprit has set out to marginalize women as efficiently and logically as possible.

I don't know that that's a good assumption to make for how sexism actually works in the brain.

[Attana]

Most of my instances were sexest comments made about women.

I can't get into some of the recent instances I've seen right now, due to IC not being over a year, but it's there, and it sucks.  Maybe not by you, Dar, but others.  I don't know if the players are new and it was a slip of the tongue/fingers, or what - but just because some people don't believe it's there or don't see it, doesn't mean that it's 100% not there.

I haven't put in any player complaints about it, so I don't know how staff go about handling it, but I do hope it's addressed when there are valid concerns.

[Dar]

Most of my instances were sexest comments made about women.

I can't get into some of the recent instances I've seen right now, due to IC not being over a year, but it's there, and it sucks.  Maybe not by you, Dar, but others.  I don't know if the players are new and it was a slip of the tongue/fingers, or what - but just because some people don't believe it's there or don't see it, doesn't mean that it's 100% not there.

I haven't put in any player complaints about it, so I don't know how staff go about handling it, but I do hope it's addressed when there are valid concerns.

Could you have just killed that person?



This situation kind of makes me think of a novel, "Beyond Horizons" written by Heinlein.  In it, people were very polite and cordial with each other. Mainly because pistol duels were legal and everyone were carrying. And no matter how quick one person is, sooner or later they'd either learn how to be polite, or they'd die.

[Citizen Puddi]

Most of my instances were sexest comments made about women.

I can't get into some of the recent instances I've seen right now, due to IC not being over a year, but it's there, and it sucks.  Maybe not by you, Dar, but others.  I don't know if the players are new and it was a slip of the tongue/fingers, or what - but just because some people don't believe it's there or don't see it, doesn't mean that it's 100% not there.

I haven't put in any player complaints about it, so I don't know how staff go about handling it, but I do hope it's addressed when there are valid concerns.

Could you have just killed that person?



This situation kind of makes me think of a novel, "Beyond Horizons" written by Heinlein.  In it, people were very polite and cordial with each other. Mainly because pistol duels were legal and everyone were carrying. And no matter how quick one person is, sooner or later they'd either learn how to be polite, or they'd die.

Eh... It kinda shouldn't come to that in the first place tbh.

Sexism in Zalanthas shouldn't exist, not out of fear of retribution-- but because it's simply not a concept in the world. Or shouldn't be, as far as documentation goes.

I'd imagine this applies to anyone's expression of sex or gender, be it a masculine woman, a feminine man, or anything in between. Nobody should be shackled with social restrictions based on anything relating to any of that.

That's always been my interpretation, at least.

[Halaster]

I haven't put in any player complaints about it, so I don't know how staff go about handling it, but I do hope it's addressed when there are valid concerns.

If everyone takes that stance, then it never gets reported and we may not ever know.  Don't hope someone else will report it.

[Attana]

I haven't put in any player complaints about it, so I don't know how staff go about handling it, but I do hope it's addressed when there are valid concerns.

If everyone takes that stance, then it never gets reported and we may not ever know.  Don't hope someone else will report it.

I chalk up my hesitancy to put in player complaints, in regard to this topic, to seeing posts from others who have done so and had less than ideal responses.  The idea of getting a blasé response to something that is a big deal to me, I think would do more harm and push me away from the game even more, than if I just sucked it up and forced myself to get over it.

[williamson]

It's my hope that people who play this game have a good time and that more players play the game AND that old players who left return while enjoying themselves.

Those of us who are here to play have voluntarily come to a setting of harshness with the tag line of murder, corruption, and betrayal. In my experience, the best villains are other players. By definition, there will always be some conflict between players in the game. This conflict can take many, many forms only limited by our imagination.

To some degree, I think we might be talking about different topics with different solutions and different opinions.

To start, some of the above complaints sound like classism more than sexism. The example of slut shaming might fit this to me. The game rules actual encourage classism. See the Allanaki hierarchy helpfile. If you spend time in low class areas, hanging out with elves, halfbreeds, or mages, you should expect some verbal harassment. If you are a sex worker with this clientele, you should expect the same. However, if you are the concubine of a powerful noble, I would hope such insults are soon followed with a nice public caning or worse punishment. Should slut shaming the concubine of a noble be a violation of the game rules? Personally, I don't think so. It should all be handled with in game roleplay or the player vs player conflict resolution code (see helpfile backstab).

Then there is the topic of sexism or prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination based on gender. The most egregious sexism in the past was the division of the Tuluki templarate by gender. The women were white robes and the men were red robes. The staff have corrected this. Today, you can play any role in the game regardless of your gender such as templar, noble, mage, criminal, tribal, sergeant, or merchant. The game statistics are equally random regardless of gender. Your paymaster pays you the same regardless of gender choice. I haven't heard anyone say I can't play or do something because I played this gender.

However, clearly some players are upset about their characters in gender roles. The problem sounds like sexual harassment or unwanted sexual advances more than sexism. To me, sexual harassment is a form of corruption which is a part of the game. Today, if you do it, I don't think your breaking the rules. However, you are certainly playing the role of villain.

As an obvious oversimplification, we as players are free to play any gender we want. If you choose a male character, you can almost completely avoid sexual harassment. So the problem deals with players who want to play female characters and not be sexually harassed in game. Personally, I think the only way to prevent this is with an OOC consent system. You could set this yourself. Other players could use consent (keyword), even via the Way, and see your settings. Unwanted sexual advances or harassment could then be prevented and a clear rule easily enforced by staff.

Finally, I know there have been requests from some players for additional language censorship. Of note was the long thread by Delirium a few months ago. I am personally against more language censorship. I realize that a lot of language we can use in game can be insulting, degrading, and hurtful. However, in a game with player conflict, sometimes those words are needed for impactful storytelling. As I often do, let me tell you of the story of one of my previous characters...

Long ago, I played a runaway slave who acquired a large bounty on his head. I was often the target (unsolicited I might add) of bounty hunters, particularly the Byn. After killing one Byn Sergeant, I arranged a truce between my gang and the Byn. This was fine until one day, without warning, a new Byn Sergant ambushed me and my newbie friends with his whole squad. I survived but was quite angry. I was mad about being betrayed, about being forced into hiding, and about the death of my newbie friends. However, there was little I could do. Eventually,  I decided to contact the Sergeant and unleash an endless stream of telepathic insults and rants. I called them a fool, a coward, an erdlu rider, elf blooded, a kank fucker, an asshole, a pussy, a motherfucker, a fatherfucker (because I was down with the "Teaches of Peaches"), a bitch, and a cunt. I wayed anything and everything I could to insult the Sergeant. They would raise a barrier and I would crush it. Rinse and repeat. This went on for several RL days. I wanted this character to understand they were the target of unrelenting mul rage. Eventually,  I stopped and realized that dead Byn Sergeants would only be replaced. I needed to get to the root of the problem so I redirected my anger. Should such insults and language be banned? I don't think so. When you betray and murder people, there should be consequences even if it's harsh, hurtful, and mean insults. As it turns out, the Sergeant was a male character. Had the Sergeant been female I would have been fine saying the same thing. My words were mean but not sexist. Do we want to ban mean words that sometimes upset people? I do not because sometimes I want to use mean words that upset people. To what extent or word choices are too much is a matter of opinion that's difficult to police.

These opinions are mine and mine alone. Any use or redistribution of my thoughts without the expressed written consent of Major Leage Baseball is strictly prohibited.

[Jihelu]

I think there is also a difference between sexism and gender roles.
The Tuluki split of sexes was a gender role kinda thing...that existed in a society that doesn't really have established roles. It wasn't like Tuluk had this view that 'Women are more wise/psionic' and 'Men are more strong physically', and having this 'We are equal but good at different things' mentality. Tuluk has the 'There are no gender roles' Arm view...then randomly had a split sex templarate.

You can do gender roles decently/differently in tribal settings, groups that already violate the norm of Zalanthas (Having religion/spirits/gods, being weirdos, etc.)
I remember having my own tribal character come from a culture who did snake-stuff. The women were larger than the males (Probably a biological thing that happened prior to the snake cult stuff...probably), and were the leaders of the tribe. The men were smaller and engaged in hunting rites to try and prove themselves to the women (Generally by hunting, could be other things). Women had multiple male partners at any given time. Was a whole thing.
In the context of the society he grew up in, and as a tribal thing, it winds up being a thing that exists.

If this sort of thing just randomly existed inside of Allanak, if the Allanaki nobles were all like this, it would make very little sense or be a head scratcher.

That being said what I mentioned isn't really sexism.
I haven't ever experienced sexism or seen it happen in game.
There's a brief memory in my head or two of someone bad mouthing sex work and I recall myself and other people at the bar were like 'What's wrong with being a whore?' but I don't have any other experiences related to it.
I acknowledge this doesn't mean that it never happens, it may be more common than what I know of course, but just giving my own experiences.
I also only ever play guys so I've never had the chance for it to happen to my own characters

[Knight of Knives]

Long ago, I played a runaway slave who acquired a large bounty on his head. I was often the target (unsolicited I might add) of bounty hunters, particularly the Byn. After killing one Byn Sergeant, I arranged a truce between my gang and the Byn. This was fine until one day, without warning, a new Byn Sergant ambushed me and my newbie friends with his whole squad. I survived but was quite angry. I was mad about being betrayed, about being forced into hiding, and about the death of my newbie friends. However, there was little I could do. Eventually,  I decided to contact the Sergeant and unleash an endless stream of telepathic insults and rants. I called them a fool, a coward, an erdlu rider, elf blooded, a kank fucker, an asshole, a pussy, a motherfucker, a fatherfucker (because I was down with the "Teaches of Peaches"), a bitch, and a cunt. I wayed anything and everything I could to insult the Sergeant. They would raise a barrier and I would crush it. Rinse and repeat. This went on for several RL days. I wanted this character to understand they were the target of unrelenting mul rage. Eventually,  I stopped and realized that dead Byn Sergeants would only be replaced. I needed to get to the root of the problem so I redirected my anger. Should such insults and language be banned? I don't think so. When you betray and murder people, there should be consequences even if it's harsh, hurtful, and mean insults. As it turns out, the Sergeant was a male character. Had the Sergeant been female I would have been fine saying the same thing. My words were mean but not sexist. Do we want to ban mean words that sometimes upset people? I do not because sometimes I want to use mean words that upset people. To what extent or word choices are too much is a matter of opinion that's difficult to police.
]

I don't think your story illustrates what you think it's illustrating.

[Strongheart]

I miss Adhira. I feel like with her around, these things would've never reached an impactful measure.

I miss Adhira too people actually adhered to her

[Dar]

Long ago, I played a runaway slave who acquired a large bounty on his head. I was often the target (unsolicited I might add) of bounty hunters, particularly the Byn. After killing one Byn Sergeant, I arranged a truce between my gang and the Byn. This was fine until one day, without warning, a new Byn Sergant ambushed me and my newbie friends with his whole squad. I survived but was quite angry. I was mad about being betrayed, about being forced into hiding, and about the death of my newbie friends. However, there was little I could do. Eventually,  I decided to contact the Sergeant and unleash an endless stream of telepathic insults and rants. I called them a fool, a coward, an erdlu rider, elf blooded, a kank fucker, an asshole, a pussy, a motherfucker, a fatherfucker (because I was down with the "Teaches of Peaches"), a bitch, and a cunt. I wayed anything and everything I could to insult the Sergeant. They would raise a barrier and I would crush it. Rinse and repeat. This went on for several RL days. I wanted this character to understand they were the target of unrelenting mul rage. Eventually,  I stopped and realized that dead Byn Sergeants would only be replaced. I needed to get to the root of the problem so I redirected my anger. Should such insults and language be banned? I don't think so. When you betray and murder people, there should be consequences even if it's harsh, hurtful, and mean insults. As it turns out, the Sergeant was a male character. Had the Sergeant been female I would have been fine saying the same thing. My words were mean but not sexist. Do we want to ban mean words that sometimes upset people? I do not because sometimes I want to use mean words that upset people. To what extent or word choices are too much is a matter of opinion that's difficult to police.
]

I don't think your story illustrates what you think it's illustrating.

What do you mean?

[Strongheart]

"There is sexism in Armageddon." "What? I don't get it, what do you mean? I haven't seen any of it."

Every single time lol

[Dar]

Reading this right now.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,19685.25.html

[Delirium]

2006 was 15 years ago.

How about reading the links that Valeria helpfully posted, if you're genuinely interested in educating yourself?

[Ender]

I called them a fool, a coward, an erdlu rider, elf blooded, a kank fucker, an asshole, a pussy, a motherfucker, a fatherfucker (because I was down with the "Teaches of Peaches"), a bitch, and a cunt. I wayed anything and everything I could to insult the Sergeant. They would raise a barrier and I would crush it. Rinse and repeat. This went on for several RL days. I wanted this character to understand they were the target of unrelenting mul rage. Eventually,  I stopped and realized that dead Byn Sergeants would only be replaced. I needed to get to the root of the problem so I redirected my anger. Should such insults and language be banned? I don't think so. When you betray and murder people, there should be consequences even if it's harsh, hurtful, and mean insults. As it turns out, the Sergeant was a male character. Had the Sergeant been female I would have been fine saying the same thing. My words were mean but not sexist. Do we want to ban mean words that sometimes upset people? I do not because sometimes I want to use mean words that upset people. To what extent or word choices are too much is a matter of opinion that's difficult to police.

These opinions are mine and mine alone. Any use or redistribution of my thoughts without the expressed written consent of Major Leage Baseball is strictly prohibited.

Here is the thing about gendered insults.  They are hurtful on an OOC level to many people, much like using racial slurs would be.  Though on an in character level they should not have the weight they do because of a lack of sexism.

Resorting to using genedered insults reeks of trying to upset the player rather than the character.  It breaks from the notion that you are collaborating with another player to tell the story, and seems more like you as the player are trying to upset the player of that character with those insults and win the encounter at all costs instead of just expressing your characters frustration to another character.

If I had to use an over the top example, lets say somehow you knew a player was offended by being called an airplane rider, but you knew airplanes didn't exist in Armageddon, but you still really wanted to upset the player's character and constantly got the results you wanted by calling them an "Airplane rider" to get that effect.  That's what it's like whenever you use gendered insults at other characters.  It's super jarring and takes me out of the scene whenever I see them used.

[Dar]

2006 was 15 years ago.

How about reading the links that Valeria helpfully posted, if you're genuinely interested in educating yourself?

What do you mean? I've read them. They more talk about why some people choose to not explain their statements about sexism and suggest to do their own research, allowing others to explain their points of view when they're comfortable, or if they choose to. 

Which is their right. But only leaves me with an option of shrugging and dismissing their opinions. Not really something I like doing, so I'm doing some more personal research. I can't google this, because we're talking about Armageddon. But I 'can' search.  The link I posted is a second post that has the word 'sexism' if you search it. The first one is regarding the 'C' Word.


PS: I hated the bias test by the way. First it trained my muscle memory to equal 'bad' with 'gay', while in reality their commonality was that it was the button on the right. And then urged me to answer as fast as possible. Still ended up with results of 'you dont give a fuck', but my fingers definitely paused a multitude of times when I had to fight back muscle memory. 

[Strongheart]

2006 was 15 years ago.

How about reading the links that Valeria helpfully posted, if you're genuinely interested in educating yourself?

What do you mean? I've read them. They more talk about why some people choose to not explain their statements about sexism and suggest to do their own research, allowing others to explain their points of view when they're comfortable, or if they choose to. 

Which is their right. But only leaves me with an option of shrugging and dismissing their opinions. Not really something I like doing, so I'm doing some more personal research. I can't google this, because we're talking about Armageddon. But I 'can' search.  The link I posted is a second post that has the word 'sexism' if you search it. The first one is regarding the 'C' Word.


PS: I hated the bias test by the way. First it trained my muscle memory to equal 'bad' with 'gay', while in reality their commonality was that it was the button on the right. And then urged me to answer as fast as possible. Still ended up with results of 'you dont give a fuck', but my fingers definitely paused a multitude of times when I had to fight back muscle memory. 

Very well, Dar. What have you been accused of being sexist for? Lay out bullet points of each accusation. Then we can discuss how that's sexist and how to remedy the situation so that you no longer are participating in the negativity. Context helps when educating someone, keep in mind I myself am a male.

[Dar]

Me? I wasnt accused of being sexist.

The post talking about it got recently edited out, because ... they do not want to get into it. But general descriptions of, "go on breaks due to casual sexism in and out of character." and "petty IG squabbles, a sexist experience and a race for coded power."

I think it's only natural for me to go, "wtf? Sexism experience in and out of character? the fuck!?!?"


And some other mentions. I mean, we had two other threads about sexism and calling it out show up within a span of two rl days.

Harmless made a pretty interesting post that touched on Contract Marriages.

[Strongheart]

I see well the out of character sexism I believe is a sensitive topic for them as it correlates to a community member with power. I won't pontificate further but there's a reason they don't bring it up here because it'll be suppressed anyway posts just as Delirium mentioned. It would just create unnecessary resentment and stress for them

[Dar]

Well. Sooo ... what's the course of action here? The person who raised the issue withdrew their statements. So should I just pretend nothing happened and go on with my life?

[Strongheart]

Well. Sooo ... what's the course of action here? The person who raised the issue withdrew their statements. So should I just pretend nothing happened and go on with my life?

Completely up to you. My suggestion would be to support a better atmosphere when it comes to this topic in particular. Were there a female in a high level staff position (the kind of female who actually understands sexism not the kind of female who is numb and apathetic to it) like the days of Adhira and Sanvean, this would certainly impact the current environment for the better, I feel. Currently, we do not have any female admins whatsoever.

[Veselka]

The course of action is to take people at their word, and if they experienced something to believe they experienced it, regardless of your own personal experiences and way of life. There's no benefit to defending the idea that ArmageddonMUD has solved sexism. It hasn't. It has taken great strides amid the MU*sphere, particularly when some anti-sexist rules were placed in the game in the mid to late 90's. It's heads and shoulders better than MANY other RPI's out there. That should be applauded. But there is always more work to do.

Sexism persists. As it does in the real world. As it does in the pay gap. As it does in not taking women seriously in the workplace, second guessing them and their knowledge, and asking unqualified men for their opinions right after they explain something. Sexism is not always a stone hammer smashed over your head obvious, just as racism is not always obvious. Implicit bias, implicit sexism, inherited sexism, mirroring, mimicry...There's a lot that goes into what makes something 'sexist' or 'gendered'.

I have worked for a long time with my wife who is a co-owner of the business we run together. You would be surprised how often people second guess what she tells them (with more knowledge on the subject than me) because she is a woman. She gets called 'girly' and 'sweetheart' often. People (typically old white men) think they are complimenting her. They aren't. Though she is brilliant in the subjects of the business we purvey, she is often reduced to being 'eye candy' and 'good looking' and 'the assistant'.

That kind of sexism is incredibly pervasive in the game as well. It is subtle. People think they are being complimentary when they absolutely aren't. Women are absolutely treated differently than men when in the same position of power.

I have played a Male and Female version of a Templar. How many times do you think the Male Templar was threatened with rape, skullfucking, or acts of sexual humiliation? 0. With a Male Power Player, you don't need to think about it. It isn't brought up unless YOU bring it up. With a female power player? It is brought up. Often. Incredibly often. Insinuations. Clearly, you must be sleeping with someone powerful. Of course you would want to have sex with me. Like...I've never had romantic overtures implied, or passed on, to my Male Power Players. I've ALWAYS had romantic overtures implied or passed on to my Female Power Players. It's in the little things. Again. Play a female PC sometime if you haven't before, and you will glimpse a whole different game.

A LOT OF THE TIME...People don't know they are doing it. It isn't done maliciously. It is done out of ignorance. And that can be corrected through education, if it is something that person wants to be educated about.

That Williamson post about his Mul constantly threatening the Byn Sergeant with gendered insults is...Well. I've experienced the other end of that. It is absolutely stupid shit to have to endure, particularly because you can't just stay barriered forever to do the rest of your IC/OOC function of a leadership position. Like seriously, fuck off with that edge lord shit. Love you dude, you're a great player, but that is not something to be proud of or point to as 'cool RP'. If you're pissed at someone for killing your friends, go kill them, don't just repeatedly call them a cunt over the Way.

We aren't perfect. I'm certainly not perfect. I've used gendered insults in the game. I also noted that when Delirium and others called out the use of that word and how it was a gendered insult...I took stock of myself and decided "Yeah...I'm just not going to use that word anymore. No need."