From Feedback to Sexism

[Hauwke]

As men, we don't often even think about sexism, let alone see when it happens. To us, it often might as well not exist because it does not effect us. Which isn't to say that is a good thing. It's bad that we often miss it.

Educate, educate, educate. Flippantly dismissing an earnest attempt to learn merely cements the desire to just ignore it.

Until recently, I had no idea that a few of the behaviours I exhibit sometimes were sexist in any way, but I had my attention brought to it and was then able to change.

[Veselka]

I heartily recommend for male players to play a female PC. It is pretty eye opening how female PCs are treated IG, and you don't really see it until you play a female PC.

[Delirium]

I am so exhausted with the onus being on those who experience sexism to explain that it does exist and then often to have to argue with people who refuse to see it. Why do I have to educate people? How about you educate yourselves? Trust me those gifs were much more productive than what I wanted to say. Anyone remember a certain ask the staff question that sparked threads re:sexism which got repeatedly locked and saw many of the carefully written posts I made get deleted wholesale? You will just have to forgive me if I am very tired of repeating myself.

Then the question never even got answered.

[Veselka]

Another thing I have noted:

Amount of time it takes for people to join organizations.

The Poet's Circle used to take on members with or without an audition as 'probationary members' or Apprentices. If they were sacks of shit, they were kicked out forever. Otherwise, they joined right in!

I've noticed some people with Tuluk opening professed interest in joining...And were told they would need to wait a year, and then audition, and then maybe wait another year to join.

That's pretty ludicrous. Most organizations should be able to join right in, like the AoD, or the Byn. Some require some modicum of trust or watching first (The Guild, Jaxa Pah, shady organizations, the Crimson Wind) that is mostly related to them being illegal or doing illegal activity regularly, and not wanting to get ratted out and caught. I don't see the Poet's Circle as being remotely near that.

If we're going to encourage people to play in Clans, we should make it a straightforward process, not a convoluted one.

[Dar]

I am so exhausted with the onus being on those who experience sexism to explain that it does exist and then often to have to argue with people who refuse to see it. Why do I have to educate people? How about you educate yourselves? Trust me those gifs were much more productive than what I wanted to say. Anyone remember a certain ask the staff question that sparked threads re:sexism which got repeatedly locked and saw many of the carefully written posts I made get deleted wholesale? You will just have to forgive me if I am very tired of repeating myself.

Then the question never even got answered.

You can PM me if you prefer.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

For me there are only two reasons.

1. Real Life and Work.

2. Other hobbies/dreams that come along to suck up time. I'm an obsessive person, so I get back into things real hardcore.

I still love the game, I don't have any conflicts with staff, and I'm not bored.

[Narf]

I heartily recommend for male players to play a female PC. It is pretty eye opening how female PCs are treated IG, and you don't really see it until you play a female PC.

I make a point to play an exact 50/50 split of males versus  females, and I've got to say every "sexual shaming" type plotline I've  ever been a part of was with  a female PC. And sometimes they just came out of nowhere.

The problem with addressing it is perspective. It's not common in the sense that most players behave in a sexist manner, but it is almost certain that if you play a female character that lives long enough in a social role you'll have to deal with it. The longer you live, the more times you'll have to deal with it. It's a type of problem that is difficult to see if you're not in the middle of it.

I'd echo the person above. Play a female character in a social role that lives at least 4 RL months. You'll see it.

Edit: Suppose I'll actually answer the OP.

1) Personally I go in waves. If something more interesting is happening IRL, my playtimes drop off. This can happen either because something more fun is happening in my RL, or because my character is in a doldrum. If it's the latter, it usually means that I either can't think of something interesting for them to do, or the thing they were trying to do got stalled.

2) The fewer people around to talk to, the less I play.

3) I'm not the "pure" Rper sort. To some degree I like to see numbers on my sheet go up. Doesn't really matter which numbers, or even if they're useful numbers particularly (woot, notched up clayworking!). If my character is otherwise unable to progress in other goals I sometimes will supplement those goals with 'get gud at somethin'. If I can't progress at my main goal, and I can't notch up my numbers as a backup then I'll tend to play less.

[Harmless]

When I take long breaks it is because my character's plot stagnated. I see these breaks as a good thing. I learned to appreciate breaks for giving me back more time. The time investment is big and in isolated roles the time you need to sink in to get that ah moment of surprise or shock or excitement or intrigue or whatever gets to be days worth and most of the sleuthing to find action just is about figuring out who is online when and who can interact with your role. I seem to keep picking iso roles but again I don't ever want to get too busy and the sweet spot of having a few regular interactions with a few folks gets disrupted too easily when one person goes inactive as I said.

BTW the sexism is real and examples come constantly. Honestly the rule that rape accusations for example cannot be made is a double standard. It is perfectly okay to slut shame a female for having gotten pregnant or something  but a female can't reveal that she was raped by someone or is forced to dance around the topic to avoid violating that bizarre and recent rule. Yes, being accused of rape is a damaging accusation but so is being accused of being promiscuous or unfaithful, especially because some of this game culture revolves around gross baby making contracts between highborn and stuff. Yet. The rules are fine with saying whatever you want about someone's sexuality except not that you were raped by them. Such rules need a hard look at for the sake of understanding why those rules were felt to be needed in the first place and to redefine them with a more updated understanding of how sexuality is good but power abuse in a relationship is bad and comes in many forms, not just outright rape. To say only the least about a topic that, if we devolve into, will distract from the point of the thread,  but the point is that if staff want to know why I have drifted away from this game I used to primarily play for social RP. (Echoing delirium and bebop and triste.)

[Veselka]

Honestly, we should just avoid derailing this thread with another thread about sexism in the game. I apologize for contributing to that derail.

[triste]

Word, and ty for the apt adjective "another."

[Veselka]

And I don't mean to be dismissive of discussing sexism in the game. As Delirium pointed out, the last thread got locked and heavily moderated to its detriment, and a dead horse is a dead horse. I think we all know how we feel.

I think sexism is alive and well in ArmageddonMUD, just as it is alive and well in the real world. We didn't 'SOLVE' Sexism by adding that women and men 'should be' treated equally where it concerns professional life (equality in the work place, a female Agent can be just as good / powerful as a male Agent) or physical / mental capability (someone isn't weaker just because they are a woman). That all sounds nice on paper. But it often doesn't play out that way in game.

[triste]

Yes, well said. I too am not a sexist and I too am tired of talking about it. I applaud all of us who are not sexists and are trying our best.

[Harmless]

Well, those players who have  tried to be heard on such topics (which shall not be named )  have long voted with their feet.

We should be thankful when inactive players return to share feedback because it is a chance to answer staff's questions as to why they left, and they are definitely missed, especially now when we have two cities again and some pretty obvious depopulation problems.

[triste]

They shouldn't have to vote with their feet and leave when they can report problems and get problematic people removed for the benefit of themselves and others. They shouldn't have to vaguebook when they can, again, report things precisely.

If they HAVE reported things and we are really seeing this grandstanding about sexism as a last resort, then yes, that is sad. I am not sure that is the case here, unless someone tells me it is. I have seen reports about sexism and homophobia resolved well by staff to speak from my experience and I think folks may just need to use the right mechanisms.

[ReturnOfTheKing]

And the community doesn't require someone like you to be judge, jury and executioner - be all and end all of opinion and insult it like you have any right to. Ta-ta.

[Barsook]

Honestly, we should just avoid derailing this thread with another thread about sexism in the game. I apologize for contributing to that derail.

Can we please have a new thread for this? Guys, please follow what the OP said to do, make new topics!

[Delirium]

I am so exhausted with the onus being on those who experience sexism to explain that it does exist and then often to have to argue with people who refuse to see it. Why do I have to educate people? How about you educate yourselves? Trust me those gifs were much more productive than what I wanted to say. Anyone remember a certain ask the staff question that sparked threads re:sexism which got repeatedly locked and saw many of the carefully written posts I made get deleted wholesale? You will just have to forgive me if I am very tired of repeating myself.

Then the question never even got answered.

You can PM me if you prefer.

How does that solve the issue of me having to repeatedly discuss the topic? I'm sorry dude. It's not you; it's the dead horse.

I almost quit playing because of the insane response to this topic and I do not have the emotional bandwidth to delve into it again. Do some forum and discord searches if you want to see my opinion on things. They're there.

It is not my responsibility to educate you all. I tried. I'm done.

[Dar]

Okey.

[valeria]

Dropping a couple of resouces here.

Why marginalized groups respond defensively when you ask them to educate you about social issues:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qGlg0nSSYNs

https://hbr.org/2019/07/its-not-your-coworkers-job-to-teach-you-about-social-issues

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/06/08/black-friends-educate-racism/

Articles about implicit bias (different from explicit bias!), which helps explain why people can be unaware of systemic issues:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=WEKd_7QL-q8 (start at 30 seconds)

https://www.simplypsychology.org/implicit-bias.html

This one is interesting and relevant:

https://time.com/transgender-men-sexism/

If you think you're above sexism or it's not an issue, take a bias test to prove you're correct?

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/

[Attana]

Sexism definition from wiki: Sexism is prejudice or discrimination based on one's sex or gender. Sexism can affect anyone, but it primarily affects women and girls. It has been linked to stereotypes and gender roles, and may include the belief that one sex or gender is intrinsically superior to another. 

As someone who plays strictly female roles, I have seen sexism happen not only to other female PCs but had it happen to mine as well on several occasions.  The most recent I can't really speak about as of yet  - but I can say that the sexism led to a very pivotal change in my characters storyline, and very nearly led to me storing. The complete absurdity of the situation and how it affected my PC went mostly ignored by the player base around at that time, despite it's obvious sexest nature.

When I witness and see sexest comments or situations in game - I point it out.  I back up the person it's happening to, and everyone else should as well.  In Zalanthas sexism isn't and shouldn't be a thing.  Period.  The idea that a woman can't do something a man can, no matter what her circumstances are, shouldn't be the mindset of anyone rolling around in game - and I'll continue to call people out IG when I see it.

[triste]

<3 the previous post, sorry you go through it but thank you for doing something about it.

[Dar]

I see it on occasion. Some dude would say, "you hit like a girl" or slut shaming, or sex work shaming, etc. And invariably eeeeveeerrrryone around him immediately beat the crap out of that person. Not literally, but very pointedly ridiculing and disparaging. Sometimes literally, although ICly it often doesn't make sense, but done to carry the point across.   That's usually the result of expressed sexism that I've witnessed.

I haven't encountered this, but I'm certain a situation like this happen. A noble takes up a female aide in his employ and then tries to begin a sexual interaction with her. The aide refuses, the noble fires the aide.  You can exchange noble and Aide to whatever. Sargeant/runner, Agent/crafter. Guild boss/anyone.  I imagine that kind of stuff happens. Is this the expression of sexism that the female part of the playerbase is encountering. Or is it something I'm not even considering?

[Narf]

Keep in mind that not all instances of sexism are going to be overt or obvious to anyone around the character that's dealing with it. This is because the effects of it are cumulative, so something small and insignifcant looking from the outside is being piled on to the dozen or so other small and insignificant looking things they already dealt with this month. This "straw on the camel's back" process will tend to make complaints look hypersensitive, when in fact they're not /really/ reacting to one incidence but rather dozens that have accumulated to reach a breaking point.

You can't witness this from the outside because you're never going to see enough of the problem unless you're the target. Best you're gonna do is see a little piece here or there, and likely individually the pieces are so little you won't even notice them anyways.

This sort of problem is very difficult to solve because one person's actions aren't the cause. It's more of a cultural issue.

[Nao]

I imagine that kind of stuff happens. Is this the expression of sexism that the female part of the playerbase is encountering. Or is it something I'm not even considering?

I can't say much about IC sexism because I rarely play female PCs. But something I come across frequently in the outside world is assumption of incompetence.

It's so widespread that I can't really blame anyone for slipping up every once in a while.  I know that I've unfairly dismissed a female coworker, assuming she didn't know what she was doing until she proved me wrong.  People aren't immune just because they don't want to be sexist. It's often completely unintentional, and they become very embarassed and apologetic once they realize what they're doing.

[triste]

It's often completely unintentional, and they become very embarassed and apologetic once they realize what they're doing.

This is the key. It is best to give people feedback directly. If you don't feel comfortable OOCing or handling it IG, use the request tool and staff can help.

We can hold eachother accountable rather than erecting and fighting scarecrows and boogeymen.