Sexism

[Gorilla J]

Sexism is what's realistic.  Men and women are different.  Armageddon's take on that isn't realism, it's catering to the desires of the female portion of the playerbase, which is fine.  Just don't go accusing players of being unrealistic.

As for sexism: I would love it if people treated my character differently because he was a man.  It'd be fun, even if they made things more difficult for him.

No, sexism is not realistic behavior (in most situations) when playing a character in the world of Zalanthas. The only differences between men and women in Zalanthas are the genitals and the mammary glands. They're equally strong, equally smart, there is no social gender since no sex has oppressed another like in RL. I'm not a fanatic feminist radical, but I've read my share of literature on the topic.

I, and I'm a male, like the fact that there is supposed to be no sexism in Zalanthas. It's not only a catering to female players' needs.

The players are probably not unrealistic, but they portray their characters in an unrealistic way if the do behave sexist for no other reason than RL ideals/biases/prejudices seeping into the game.

IMO your post is close to trolling, Gorilla J.

(Edited for minor spelling)

I guess it's a good thing what you think of my post doesn't affect whether it remains or not, then.  I find the lack of sexism in the game disturbing; men and women are not the same, even if they have equal opportunities and no gender has been oppressed.  That goes both ways, you can discriminate against men just as well.  But they /are/ different; if everyone was the same, what would there be to attract a mate, or similar things?

[Malifaxis]

Wow, you are really trying aren't you.

The male/female physiology is structurally different.  However women can grow just as strong, be just as pigheaded, or stink just as much if they put their minds to it.

It is the will that drives the body.  There is no difference in male/female will.

[Gaare]

If you want to play a female that's treated like a man, play a female that's more "manly" and I promise you it will happen.

What about the other side? From that sentence, it is logical to imply males should play a little "womanly."

I think the case for Zalanthas is accepting there is almost no exact behaviour set described as manly or womanly.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

All the male players, especially the misogynists, could benefit from playing a
long-lived female pc for a while and not telling anyone who or what they're currently
playing.

I hope you realize that misogynist means "woman-hater". Do you think we have women haters on this board? Bebop's original article was about a PC who dared to stipulate that women behave differently than men on Zalanthas.

Should I get upset on this board because a female character once accused one of mine of thinking with his little head? Should I call her a misandrist? No.

[Gorilla J]

Wow, you are really trying aren't you.

The male/female physiology is structurally different.  However women can grow just as strong, be just as pigheaded, or stink just as much if they put their minds to it.

It is the will that drives the body.  There is no difference in male/female will.

Yes, they can.  I never said otherwise; I merely said they were different.  If they put their mind to it, and work, a man or a woman can be just as good as anyone else in any specific thing.  But that doesn't mean men and women are identical.

[Marauder Moe]

No one is saying they're not different.  There are physical (as in organs, not capabilities) differences.  There are clothing differences.  I'd like to believe that even in Zalanthas there are some behavioral and cultural differences.  In Tuluk, there's even an institutionalized seperation of gender among the Templarate.

What is meant by no sexism is that gender is not refered to in an inherently derogatory or complementary way.  In Zalanthas, people wouldn't say "manly man", "crying like a girl", or "hits like a woman".  They don't say "slut", or "bitch" as an insult.  They wouldn't say "have the balls to ..." either.

[bloodfromstone]

All the male players, especially the misogynists, could benefit from playing a
long-lived female pc for a while and not telling anyone who or what they're currently
playing.

Maybe I was lucky, but my longest lived PC was a female, and I experienced very little sexism. Granted, she was plain-faced, strong and rough. I'm sure that factors into the equation somewhere. There were side comments here and there, mostly just Earth phrases that didn't quite fit, but didn't actually mean any harm. There were a few instances that I thought were a little out of the setting, but, over all, it was a wonderful experience. I'm planning to play another female PC soon, actually. Hopefully it will be just as rewarding.

[Xygax]

Even if Zalanthanian society in general isn't sexist, it doesn't mean there can't be some individuals who are.

This remark is identical to: "Even if Zalanthian elves in general don't ride kanks, it doesn't mean there can't be some individuals who do."

What we're telling you, as a matter of staff policy is that sexism doesn't exist on Zalanthas[/b].  We're not saying "in general it doesn't happen," we're saying "it doesn't exist."

What is meant by that remark is a much more nebulous thing, unfortunately.  The wikipedia definition of sexism fits pretty well, I think:  "Sexism is commonly considered to be discrimination and/or hatred against people based on their sex rather than their individual merits, but can also refer to any and all systemic differentiations based on the sex of the individuals."  The part where it gets really difficult is when your character has had a long history of being injured by members of a particular gender, and I can certainly see this evolving into a general distaste for that gender, but it should never become a "systemic differentation".  To make use of Bebop's example, unless your character has specifically witnessed a lot of trivial "chatter" among the women he's been exposed to, then this "woman chatter" thing would never occur to you, it is an anachronism invading your RP.

If anything, the extrapolation made from having been consistently injured by members of another gender throughout your life should probably be that they're not trustworthy and are probably smarter/stronger than you and so should be avoided.  What shouldn't happen is that, as your character grows to dislike the opposite gender more and more, your RL stereotypes clutter and corrupt your play.

-- X

[LoD]

I think it's a useful reminder, particularly for players new to these boards.  Certainly it's not the only thread that comes up over and over again.  Thank you for taking the time to write that up, Bebop.

Perhaps there would be room for a sticky or documentation detailing the better arguements/reminders asserted in these threads rather than bringing them up every two months.  

If we want to discuss why sexism happens in game, and I mean why it REALLY happens, then there are a lot of other factors that weigh into the arguement.  Notice must be paid to the actions taken by all players, not just the male characters.  The issue is that men and women are very good at recognizing each other's cues, and they use them.

Clothing Cues

Women, more than men, tend to wear dresses, jewelry, and silks that play up status, physical appearance, comfort, and style.

Men, more than women, tend to wear armor, badges, tattooes, and scars that play up physical prowess, competition, power, and practicality.

Is this in the documentation?  Or are these RL trends working their way into the game?  Why don't the men wear the rings and trinkets, and the women walk around rugged, tough, and battle hardened?  Those do happen, but they are the exception and not the rule.  There are dirty filthy 'rinth females, female Byn sergeants, male Fale Lords, silk clad male merchants -- but not as often.

Physical Cues

Women, more than men, giggle, cover ther mouth when they laugh, flip their hair, pout their lips, sway their hips, and exhibit a wealth of physical cues that suggest traditional Western values of what is sexy, feminine, and attractive.

Men, more than women, grunt, nod, scowl, narrow their eyes, tromp, clank their armor, scratch themselves, make crude gestures, and exhibit cues that imply strength, stoicism, and ruggedness commonly associated with the role of the hunter, the provider, the insensitive bread winner.

Why are female descriptions often so smooth, dainty, volumptuous, or large breasted?  Why do they have pouty lips, rosy cheeks, flowing hair, round hips, hourglass figures?  Why do males traditionally have heavily muscled physiques, ruggedly handsome features, callused hands, eyepatches, scars, broad shoulders, and war braids?  Do they accurately reflect their position in society?  The job they do?  The job they hope to do?  Why aren't women and men more similar in the descriptions they write if their occupations and social standing is likewise equal?

There are lots of factors that weigh into why sexism continues to plague the game and, predominantly, its female players.  But the issues are not black and white.  I'd be interested to see some more steps and explanations created that further differentiate RL females/males and Zalanthan females/males.  Manner of dress, typical gender roles within Zalanthas (if any), Zalanthan models of beauty (both male and female), traditional male-female courtships in both the north and south.

I think some of those things might help attack the problem from both sides.

-LoD

[Halaster]

I agree that as a game, we have chosen the setting and background that men and woman are completely equal.  We have also chosen the setting and background that elves do not ride mounts.

In real life, sexism exists.  In real life, kanks and elves do not exist.  It is easier for players to accept as Zalanthan "fact" that elves don't ride mounts because they don't have real life influencing their actions.  It is harder for players to play out not being sexist when it exists in real life on some level.

My point?  While I agree that players as a whole need to work at getting better at this one aspect, let's not get upset at them for failing in this area, but simply give them friendly reminders and forget about it.  Let's face it - it's harder to roleplay certain situations than others.  For example, opening the door for a woman.  I do that in Real Life and in my mind I'm not thinking I'm being sexist in a bad way.  I do that because that's what "Men Do" without thought of women being inferior or any other such ideas.  Modern society has said that it's proper and polite.  So it bleeds over into the game because I didn't immediately associate the action with sexism.  I agree, in this example on Zalanthas men wouldn't be opening doors for women, but I didn't think of it that way.

I do admit that I find roleplaying this particular situation very difficult at times, if I want to be really strict and hardline about it.  By that I mean, "If I say this or do this, am I basing that purely on the fact it's a woman, and if so, is it done in a bad way?".  This is a hard one for me, personally, to grasp as a roleplayer.

For example, if everything is equal:
:arrow: Would men and women still want privacy from the opposite sex when going to the bathroom?
:arrow: Would men and women still want privacy from the opposite sex when changing clothes?

Some more observations:
While the sexes are equal in terms of power, achievement, and so on, they are still not the same.  Heterosexuality must be more commonplace than homosexuality else the races would simply not survive.  Therefore, man-woman relationships are more prevalent than man-man or woman-woman relationships.  The very reason sex (in the sense of male/female not the act) exists is for the continuation of the species - otherwise they'd all be asexual and just bud or divide.  My point?  There is a difference in male and female and so it's only natural, on some level, that differences in how each other is treated takes place.

In real life, there are certain physical traits that each sex finds more appealing than other physical traits.  For example, many men find the "dainty" or "shapley" or "big-boobed" type women more attractive.  It only makes sense, then, why male players have their male characters react differently to those types of women.  Again, I'm not saying this is the way it should be, but simply saying it's the way it is.  My question:  How do we, as players, move ourselves beyond this?

I don't necessarily know the answers, and this is probably the area that I'm the "worst" at when it comes to roleplaying.

[Bebop]

The fact is that 99% of PC female characters are smaller, weaker, prettier, and more real-world "womanly" than 99% of male PC characters.

If you want to play a female that's treated like a man, play a female that's more "manly" and I promise you it will happen. But if you play a female that embodies womanly qualities, expect to be treated that way as well.

The point is just because someone is womanly or feminine and doesn't want to RP scratching their crotch and spitting doesn't mean they can't be respected or codedly kick butt.  If someone is being petty treat them like their petty sure, but I think woman still can be and should be allowed to be feminine but strong.

And alot of men and maybe women on the reverse recoil to see an overly manly woman, though I've seen some with moustaches.

You shouldn't judge people by how you expect them to play because their PC looks a certain way.  This is Zalanthas and women can be codedly strong and fight even if they don't want to go around carry a big stick.  That's the point they shouldn't be trying to over compensate with testosterone to be acknowledged or respected.  They should be able to maintain the fact they are a woman and still retain respect if they deserve it without having to act this way or that.

[Lizzie]

I think just because the genders are equal, and sexism doesn't exist. Well that doesn't mean a girl can't behave "girlish" and a man can't behave "manly." The genders aren't the same. They're equal. That's a big difference to me. If I want to make a female character who giggles and tries to be demure sometimes, and batts her eyelashes when she's flirting, then it's because I want her to be seen as "delicately feminine." That doesn't mean she can't kick your ass from Tuluk to Allanak and back. Maybe she can, maybe she can't. It just means that I want her to be perceived in a very particular way, for a very specific reason. If I am out of line for thinking this way, if it is wrong to think that giggling, eyelash-batting, and hip-swaying are all "delicately feminine" traits, by all means correct me. If swaggering, chuckling as a replacement for a giggle, and winking instead of batting shouldn't be considered "manly" or at least "non-delicately feminine" behaviors, go ahead and correct me. But the genders are not the same. If they were, there wouldn't be any need for more than one gender.

I hope I'm understanding this right and roleplaying approrpirately.

L. Stanson

[Marauder Moe]

Can we say, though, that woman on Zalanthas do have a tendancy toss their hair, giggle, and wear more fine clothes and jewelry than men, yet aren't discriminated against?  Can we say that a female Byn sergeants kick just as much ass as any male sergeant, yet spend more time on average cleaning their armor?  Can we say that women like to talk about feelings more than men but that doesn't affect how good a leader one is?  Can we say that in monogamous relationships with children, men tend to take the providor role while the women manage the home, and not have people look down at her for a lack of a formal employment?

(There are honest questions, not rhetorical.  I'm genuinely curious if things could work this way, or if this is how it's meant to be in the first place.)

I think it's certainly possible to have something be abnormal (dainty men, gruff dirty women, stay-at-home dads) but not be discrimated against.

[Delirium]

I have played feminine knockouts, and I have played mean, tattooed, badasses.

I have to admit I haven't, personally, seen any overt sexism.

I have seen a difference in the way they're treated, but that is because they are different characters, plain and simple.

Maybe I'm just lucky but the worst sexism I've ever witnessed is that it's a little more difficult for a female combat character to prove herself among men, but a few examples of WHY said female was top 'tok was usually more than enough...

[Gorilla J]

The fact is that 99% of PC female characters are smaller, weaker, prettier, and more real-world "womanly" than 99% of male PC characters.

If you want to play a female that's treated like a man, play a female that's more "manly" and I promise you it will happen. But if you play a female that embodies womanly qualities, expect to be treated that way as well.

The point is just because someone is womanly or feminine and doesn't want to RP scratching their crotch and spitting doesn't mean they can't be respected or codedly kick butt.  If someone is being petty treat them like their petty sure, but I think woman still can be and should be allowed to be feminine but strong.

And alot of men and maybe women on the reverse recoil to see an overly manly woman, though I've seen some with moustaches.

You shouldn't judge people by how you expect them to play because their PC looks a certain way.  This is Zalanthas and women can be codedly strong and fight even if they don't want to go around carry a big stick.  That's the point they shouldn't be trying to over compensate with testosterone to be acknowledged or respected.  They should be able to maintain the fact they are a woman and still retain respect if they deserve it without having to act this way or that.

So you want women to be respected and thought of a certain why even if they don't act that way or flaunt it, or even if they seem to be something else?  Not going to happen.

You want a woman who's treated just like "one of the guys"?  Then act like one of the guys; you're not going to be treated the way you want just because you want to be.  If you look like you're weak, girly, dainty, etc., or act like it, you're going to be treated that way.

[Morgenes]

This has been rehashed many times before, so please keep it civil and watch your tones.  Remember that multiple staff have put in their opinion on this, and this discussion is so that those who haven't had a chance to chime in before can contribute to the ongoing discussion.

[bloodfromstone]

You shouldn't judge people by how you expect them to play because their PC looks a certain way.

I have to disagree with this. You shouldn't judge a character because of their gender. But you should judge them by their appearance. Just because the slight, dainty maiden can be a warrior with maxxed slashing weapons does NOT mean everyone should be expected to treat everyone like they could have any guild combination/skill level. If my PC, male or female, meets a scrawney, well-kempt woman OR man who can devestate people in combat, they will be surprised. I would, personally, say that not judging someone's abilities by their appearance is looking at things from an OOC perspective.

[Bebop]

So you want women to be respected and thought of a certain why even if they don't act that way or flaunt it, or even if they seem to be something else?  Not going to happen.

You want a woman who's treated just like "one of the guys"?  Then act like one of the guys; you're not going to be treated the way you want just because you want to be.  If you look like you're weak, girly, dainty, etc., or act like it, you're going to be treated that way.

I'm sorry but you're way misinterpretting the post. In Zalanthas a woman's goal isn't to be "one of the guys" because guys and girls are the same on Zalanthas. They are -already- one of the guys. Guys and girls are the same socially their only difference should be physical. You don't have to like everyone but a person doesn't have to be masculine to be respected or fit in. That is sexist to say that they must behave like a man to get respect, if that is they case then why not just play a man. That's the point of the thread, to remind people not to have that kind of disposition that you don't have to be masculine to get respect. That is a real wordly idea, and it puts men at the higher standing I'm talking about. These kind of attitudes don't belong in game. A woman can still be womanly and be codedly strong in Zalanthas. They shouldn't have to act more like a man to get the same respect.

On the same note, a man shouldn't have to play some brawny whatever to fit in.  Man on Zalanthas can play frilly guys and do work if they want to.  It's all up to the imagination.  The gender may sway to act one way or another but that's not sexism if a girl giggles more then a man.  It's just different different traits.  The point is, is that based on policy people should be able to choose whether they want to approach their character one way or the other.  Not act like "one of the guys." To fit in.

Bloodfromstone - Maybe not so much by appearance you're right - I would be suprised to but attitude.  My point is that just because a woman doesn't have a masculine appearance or attitude doesn't mean she isn't as strong is a man.  That is my main point.  All woman don't have to act manly, all men don't have to act womanly - the point is I don't think people should be judged by those behaviors.  Oh you are woman with ample breasts that doesn't spit and have a moustache well "you aren't one of the guys and you can't lead" I don't think that's appropriate.  That's like me saying - oh you have broad shoulders and a toned chest, you codedly have a good appearance you aren't one of the "girls." See how just... strange that is?

[SpyGuy]

Ok, I don't want to jump in deeper but I'll say a few things.  I've played a prissy looking man and was rejected from joining the Byn more or less because I looked too prissy.  I expect the same to hold for women.

Here's one thought:  Don't define being feminine by Western standards.  Don't definite being feminine as being the dainty or petite girl, because in all honesty if someone is dainty or petite they really don't look like they can hold their own in a fight.  This may very well be false, but if I saw a "petite, kohl-eyed man" I'd definitely assume he was someone pampered who wasn't a good fighter.  Hence if I see a "petite, kohl-eyed woman" I'm going to assume the same thing.

Perhaps I'm looking at this the wrong way.  I'm not trying to say someone can't play a dainty PC, but if you do play one don't expect to have it immediately assumed that you can do combat.  I also am not trying to say that women have to be the "hairy, broad-shouldered woman" to earn my combat respect.  But when I play combat PCs I generally look for some signs that the PC can hold their own: muscles, attitude, a military bearing, etc.

[bloodfromstone]

Ah, I was mistaken on what you meant. Thank you for clarifying.

[Bebop]

Ok, I don't want to jump in deeper but I'll say a few things.  I've played a prissy looking man and was rejected from joining the Byn more or less because I looked too prissy.  I expect the same to hold for women.

Here's one thought:  Don't define being feminine by Western standards.  Don't definite being feminine as being the dainty or petite girl, because in all honesty if someone is dainty or petite they really don't look like they can hold their own in a fight.  This may very well be false, but if I saw a "petite, kohl-eyed man" I'd definitely assume he was someone pampered who wasn't a good fighter.  Hence if I see a "petite, kohl-eyed woman" I'm going to assume the same thing.

Perhaps I'm looking at this the wrong way.  I'm not trying to say someone can't play a dainty PC, but if you do play one don't expect to have it immediately assumed that you can do combat.  I also am not trying to say that women have to be the "hairy, broad-shouldered woman" to earn my combat respect.  But when I play combat PCs I generally look for some signs that the PC can hold their own: muscles, attitude, a military bearing, etc.

I have also had this happen to me with one of my female PCs.  I didn't think it was sexist I thought it was great.  There is a different between turning someone down because they are dainty, and turning someone down because they are not "masculine" enough.

[Intrepid]

I hope you realize that misogynist means "woman-hater". Do you think we have women haters on this board? Bebop's original article was about a PC who dared to stipulate that women behave differently than men on Zalanthas.

I am well aware of the meaning, but thank you.  And, as has already been generously
mentioned, many ooc attitudes bleed into ic interaction.

Should I get upset on this board because a female character once accused one of mine of thinking with his little head? Should I call her a misandrist? No.

Actually, yes.  I never once said you should take any woman's bullshit when she
talks down to you for being a guy.

[Intrepid]

Sexism is what's realistic.  Men and women are different.  Armageddon's take on that isn't realism, it's catering to the desires of the female portion of the playerbase, which is fine.  Just don't go accusing players of being unrealistic.

You just did, actually.  And incidentally, Armageddon's lack of sexism hails from
its Dark Sun roots.

As for sexism: I would love it if people treated my character differently because he was a man.  It'd be fun, even if they made things more difficult for him.

What about if they treated your differently for being a woman?  Go ahead, try it
sometime.

[Intrepid]

Maybe I was lucky, but my longest lived PC was a female, and I experienced very little sexism. Granted, she was plain-faced, strong and rough. I'm sure that factors into the equation somewhere. There were side comments here and there, mostly just Earth phrases that didn't quite fit, but didn't actually mean any harm. There were a few instances that I thought were a little out of the setting, but, over all, it was a wonderful experience. I'm planning to play another female PC soon, actually. Hopefully it will be just as rewarding.

Phrases that you imply were in regards to your gender, did not fit into the situation; A la gender discrimination bleeding into an ic situation from the real world.

You don't sound that lucky to me.

[Gorilla J]

Sexism is what's realistic.  Men and women are different.  Armageddon's take on that isn't realism, it's catering to the desires of the female portion of the playerbase, which is fine.  Just don't go accusing players of being unrealistic.

You just did, actually.  And incidentally, Armageddon's lack of sexism hails from
its Dark Sun roots.

As for sexism: I would love it if people treated my character differently because he was a man.  It'd be fun, even if they made things more difficult for him.

What about if they treated your differently for being a woman?  Go ahead, try it
sometime.

Let them.  I'd find it just as amusing.