From Feedback to Sexism

[Tranquil]

I don't really have a point to share here, but I've seen like four threads exactly like this that do nothing but generate ten pages of basically the exact same points molded into different posts, against the exact same counter-points molded into different posts, that then dissipate into nothing meaningful.

I totally think sexism is still prevalent in Zalanthas, after playing both male and female characters. A vast majority of these instances were.. unintentional. People simply not knowing. Believe it or not, most people who play this game aren't young nor woke, but still don't want to make the other player uncomfortable or feel discriminated against. I would suggest PMing them, putting in a player complaint, or asking staff to step in.

Making repeat accusatory threads like these does pretty much nothing but make our game that has 50 people (on a good day) on peak mad at each other, and creates even more toxicity in our small community. I can't say I'm surprised when I see so many people say they simply don't browse the GDB or Discord anymore.

[Maso]

Believe it or not, most people who play this game aren't young nor woke, but still don't want to make the other player uncomfortable or feel discriminated against. I would suggest PMing them, putting in a player complaint, or asking staff to step in.

Making repeat accusatory threads like these does pretty much nothing but make our game that has 50 people (on a good day) on peak mad at each other, and creates even more toxicity in our small community. I can't say I'm surprised when I see so many people say they simply don't browse the GDB or Discord anymore.

So much this. I actually really like this community and find pretty much everyone to be super lovely people. It really upsets me when the whole community is painted with the same brush, and it's such a negative one - when really we could be doing more to address the issues in active, responsible and respectful ways without making it seem like our whole community is some depraved cesspit of toxicity.. it really.. isn't. It's so much better than so many other online communities which I think is evident in the high bar of expectations revealed here.

[Strongheart]

Well I hope we're not coming off as too abrasive or being holier-than-thou. The point is that patient steps can be made: healthy ones without judgement.

There's been low morale for what seems like a few months now, I can't pinpoint exactly what but I feel a lot of that will air out during the player-staff meeting.

[Usiku]

In response to the current conversations (and indeed past conversations) and in favour of transparency, I wanted to give a staff side perspective, so we can all be clear on where our community stands, where we stand as staff, what the rules of the community and the game are, what you can expect from us and the support that we need from you.

Sexism is an extremely challenging issue to counter in any community, be it online communities or the flesh and blood communities around us. This said, I believe we have come a long way and, especially over the last decade, have seen some leaps and bounds in gaming communities specifically (which unfortunately remained an unaddressed stronghold of sexism for far too long).

The Armageddon community was somewhat ahead of the curve in this, with rules against sexism in the community and thematically in the game being in place for over two decades. We also have a generally mature and intelligent player base who do not shy away from difficult discussions around social ethics and are consistent champions for inclusive behaviour. Personally, I like to feel that this is one of the more inclusive gaming communities (I have a much more unpleasant time if I try to get chatty on Call of Duty, for example). But regardless, counteracting sexism needs to be an ongoing effort, and it will likely be something we need to keep on top of until it is somehow eradicated from our real world societies.

There is no tolerance for sexism in our OOC community or our IC game. We will not immediately ban someone who missteps by bringing casual sexism into the game, but we will course-correct. Furthermore, abusive, blatant sexism or continued disregard for our rules will be taken very seriously. If a player cannot, or does not wish to, check themselves and learn to fit in with these rules then we absolutely will escalate to whatever point necessary to protect our community against this kind of behaviour.

The catch is: we are not omniscient. While we try to maintain a good overview of what is going on in-game, it is very easy for us to miss things. We can go back a little to corroborate or investigate but we do not see everything that is happening all of the time. This is where it has to be a community effort. If you are seeing or experiencing sexism in game (or outside of the game within the community) and you want us to be able to work towards a community that is free of it - then we need you to report it to us. Please do not think we will not take it seriously, we will. This also needs to be done in a timely manner to allow us to look into it. If you leave it weeks or months before reporting, then this makes it extremely difficult for us to deal with appropriately.

When you send in a serious request like this and maybe don't hear back from us for a few days, it is not because we are ignoring you or not taking you seriously. It is because we are investigating and discussing and sometimes tearing our hair out to try and figure out what the right thing to do is. Please do not think that we do not care, we care - a lot. Likewise, also understand that these kinds of issues are very challenging, for any community - expecting us to get it right every time, especially in the eyes of everyone's differing opinions, might be too much to expect, but we are always trying. If it was easy, sexism wouldn't exist anymore anywhere. It's not easy and it's not always black and white - but can I honestly say that the whole staffing team cares passionately about doing right by this game and our players. I cannot speak for how things may have been done at any other period in time, but I can speak for how things are right now.

There are multiple channels for contacting staff, the best way is always going to be via a request because then it will always be subject to oversight and proper procedure. However, if you are uncomfortable for any reason, you can reach out to a staff member you trust or feel more comfortable talking to and they can help you through the process of properly reporting it.

This is not staff vs players, this is a community that we are all part of and we need to work together.

[Bebop]

This all sounds good but when will there be some transparency on this?

Like can we actually post our requests where we've complained about sexism and effectively nothing has been done and then have a REAL conversation?  Because that's part of the issue is that these OOC rules to not discuss IG events in any context 1) foster a culture of secret OOC discussion and 2) prevent transparency that would out predatory behavior.

Off the top of my head I can think of

-My Borsail being called "hysterical" who was completely laconic.  Her rivalries were referred to as "quirri fights."  Or how she was pulled aside by a Templar and told to be "lady like" instead of hunting an escaped rantarri.  My character was then pulled into a staff meeting and I opted to store.

-How my female sixteen year old Bynner was stripped naked and flayed with a barbed whip without OOC consent.  When reported to staff they basically told me that somehow that didn't qualify for the torture consent rule.  Her male counterpart that left as a Runner was not beaten or tortured in anyway.

-Recent IG events where my characters male peer was treated with more privilege in a contextually equal situation ... wherein the response from staff was "if I look for sexism I'll find it."

-Or the fact I, and a briefly returning friend who then left, reported harassment from a staff member complete with back up documentation and effectively nothing was done to my knowledge.

Saying there's a zero tolerance policy and actually enacting a zero tolerance policy to protect people are two totally different things.  Because in my experience so far as a player of seventeen years there is very much a tolerance policy.


Every single one of these events I contacted staff on the matter even, as I said, getting pulled into a meeting.  And every single time nothing was done to protect me on an OOC or IC level.

And every single one of these events has occurred in the last two to three years.  This isn't ancient history.

[Dar]

Heya, Bebop

Do you know which staff members were involved in conversations regarding these situations?

[RavingTregils]

Woah guys, is that how you treated Bebop?

I was thinking this was the "somebody called me a cunt" problem which is kinda iffy (only place I have seen that word used is female vs female).

What happened to Bebop is NOT COOL. Fix it.

[Dar]

By 'you guys' you mean us all, RavenTregils.  It's not really a particular individual. It's the understanding and consensus of what's fine to do in the theme of harshness and brutality of the world setting and what is not at all fine to do, regardless of the setting.

[RavingTregils]

No, Dar, what Bebop describes is beyond the pale for me.

It's not "you called me a sissy so you are a misogynist pig". It's not policing words or dragging someone's RL problems into the game.

I see females in Zalanthas as Valeria in Conan the Barbarian (the original movie not the remake): scary deadly, equal in every way to a male. Hell, go google Dark Sun and look at the images. You won't see any apron wearing 1950's housewives.

I can't wrap my head around treating female characters as subordinate in a way that is completely out of step with the game world.
You might as well rename Nenyuk, House ATM and scatter ATM machines around. It does not belong in the game.

But on top of that, it's happening to a regular customer.
Me, I'm not important. I play, I don't, whatever. I'll never play a leadership pc, too much responsibility.
However, I've been around long enough to know handles on the gdb that have put a lot into this game over the years.
I can't wrap my head around an (for better word) organization that doesn't look out for their regular customers.

The consensus on how a female PC/NPC should be treated was laid out a long long time ago - in Dark Sun books/games/AD&D.
That's what I try to play to. That's what the game originally played to.

[Hestia]

This is a kind, sensitive reminder:

This thread is about a topic, not about any one individual's personal, detailed experiences.  I don't want to see any player feeling like they should have to defend their position with personal information.  So let's try to be more sensitive to that and not ask (or encourage) players to give more details, name names, etc.

[Dar]

There is some ambiguity regarding details. We can assume the worst. We can assume the best. Or we can discuss it like adults. We don't need to assign blame. We just need to move forward better.

For example. Bebops situation.

A templar set her noble aside and told her she needed to act more "lady like".  Does this mean she should have acted more "noble like" ?  As in leaving dirty dangerous work to commoners.  Or "lady like" in terms of how it's understood IRL?    Because the difference is staggering. One version is pretty accurate. The other unacceptable. But until we discuss this, people will assume the worst, or the best and neither one will know what's real.


Best way to fix this, should be a suggestion for Bebop to hush it out in private with staff. This is where these situations supposed to end. But ... I'm guessing they are not ending?

Between this thread and the one from 2006, it seems there is still talk of sexism. And it may be true, if you look for sexism, you'll find it. But from 2006 and 2021, it seems that things have gotten ... Worse?   I always saw Armageddon as ahead of the curve in this situation. But then I see let's say Delirium who is arguing with Bebop in 2006, saying that things are pretty good. And then Delirium in 2021 saying that things are not at all good.  I am honestly curious to see what is causing the difference.   Are people extra sensitive this year then back then? Or are people extra insensitive?  I think the topic deserves a conversation. And while it should be done privately. It seems like the private conversation did not solve the issue. Perhaps we should discuss individual cases to find the root of the problem and decide whether they are real issues, or truly a case of "if you seek it, you will find it."  If people are willing to discuss it.  Otherwise we are back to vaguebooking, trolling, inadequate conflict resolution, and inevitable player loss.

[Delirium]

One thing to consider while pondering this: we no longer have female staff in Administrator or Producer positions.

In particular, we no longer have people like Sanvean, who actively championed equality in gaming environments.

[Maso]

Between this thread and the one from 2006, it seems there is still talk of sexism. And it may be true, if you look for sexism, you'll find it. But from 2006 and 2021, it seems that things have gotten ... Worse?   I always saw Armageddon as ahead of the curve in this situation. But then I see let's say Delirium who is arguing with Bebop in 2006, saying that things are pretty good. And then Delirium in 2021 saying that things are not at all good.  I am honestly curious to see what is causing the difference.   Are people extra sensitive this year then back then? Or are people extra insensitive?

Honestly, I think things are infinitely better now than they were back then. I think the conversations now are more heated because the expectations are different and we are honing in on much smaller details, ones which actually span over blurred lines of understanding and agreement around the much bigger topic of what actually classifies as 'sexism'. It feels like now there is an expectation of 'perfect' behaviour.. which is frankly too much to expect. If you go around expecting everyone around you to be perfect, you're just going to be disappointed and angry all the time.

It's a pretty easy conversation to have when what you are debating is whether it's ok to say stuff like, "You hit like a woman." - it's straightforward. It's black and white and it's an easy call for community moderators to make.

When you have people zeroing in on the minutiae of semantics or trying to second guess motivations and intent, because that is the realm of sexism we are into now (where it is no longer so in your face and blatant - this is progress).. it becomes much harder. We also have a broad range of opinions that all fall into the 'not sexist' camp of what actually constitutes as sexism and so you have people getting into heated debates when they are essentially on the same side.

So far, the position that has rung truest for me has been what triste posted on other thread.  If you look for it, you will absolutely see it, often when it is not there. I also think it's super convenient to be able to say.. "Oh they're being like this to me because I'm female" rather than take a look at yourself and see if there might be other reasons that have nothing to do with gender (like.. maybe I was just an asshole?). I very very rarely encounter sexism and when I do it's blatant (e.g. the guy in the car lot ignoring me and talking to my husband who.. isn't fricking paying for the damn car). I don't look around me and see subtle sexism affecting my life (or my PCs IG) and when things don't go my way my mind just doesn't go there. And I'm pretty happy about that. If my PC got picked on and a male PC didn't.. or if some other dude got picked for a job and I didn't.. I'm just going to assume it's one of the other hundred possible reasons besides gender.

I'm not saying it doesn't exist in game.. I'm sure it does, but I struggle to see it as a systemic problem because it isn't in my face. Although, I suppose it could just be that it's worse during peak and I get to skip out on being exposed to that.

I definitely do not want to see these 'cases' hashed out publicly.. that isn't for us. That feels like a witch hunt. It feels like poisoning the well. And I have zero clue what that would achieve besides just further upsetting people. It's also not fair on the other people involved who may or may not be here to defend themselves or may simply not have the energy to. There are two sides to every story, and I am happy for that to sit firmly with the folks who can actually get a grip on both sides.

[Delirium]

To be clear: I don't think it's worse. I think that in 2006 I did not play the sorts of roles that often encountered overt sexism, and I was also in my early 20's and assumed behavior that I would not accept as okay now was okay then. I did have my female character's virginity literally offered to a male Templar as a political bribe and, while I felt weird about it OOC, didn't even think to complain. If that happened today, I would have 100% gone on a fucking rampage.

I think today's game is better and more mature. I am still going to call out sexist crap when I see it. As someone posted previously, it often more subtle, and in general, trying to give the benefit of the doubt and assume equality is going to make for a better time, a healthier community, and a more enjoyable game. Even so, there are cases where it becomes transparently obvious that a player is carrying over OOC attitudes that are inappropriate to the world of Zalanthas.

The cases are sometimes egregious, but are more often minor incidents that build up over time. Reporting such incidents is difficult because the player does not want to be seen as over-reacting, or to seem like they're raising a fuss over nothing (since the incidents are usually small but cumulative), but then they are asked: why didn't you report? The answer to that, all too often, is, "I was trying to give the player the benefit of the doubt", or "I didn't want to seem like a problematic player who complains over small things," and that is where, I think, we can improve. In some cases, it very well may be that the person who perceived sexism was incorrect, and it was a matter of misunderstanding intent or not having the full picture. In other cases, it may be that they are correct, and the situation was flying under staff's radar-- and so unless something is said, it will simply continue unchecked. In the end, honest communication is key, and so is being willing to accept and admit that you might have been wrong in your perceptions, whether you are the accused or the accuser.

In recent years, save for "the Great C-word Debacle", the examples I've seen are less blatant. Where we still need work, I think, is primarily in ensuring people (women AND men) feel safe coming forward with any concerns they have. It was mentioned that people don't tend to report this: that is most likely because the player who would report fears being seen as a "problem player" or fears reprisal for bringing the matter up, so it seems easier and safer to stay quiet.

Sexism does exist, and probably always will, though it is often a bit sneakier. It leans more toward subtle double standards, how much attention your character gets, how seriously they're taken, and how authoritative behavior is perceived. I do personally suspect that most cases of overt sexism can be linked to a small subset of players rather than it being a widely pervasive issue throughout the entire playerbase, but since it isn't a large playerbase, it seems recurrent.

To Maso's point, looking for it will only poison the well, yes, but trying to pretend it doesn't exist at all won't help either.

As I mentioned in another thread, it is my belief that encouraging open and honest communication and a positive mindset is going to help the most. If there are concerns about a situation that "just doesn't feel right", talking with staff about it sooner rather than later, and as calmly and objectively as possible, is probably the best route to getting the matter settled so that either a) the offender in question can be course-corrected, or b) the situation can be explained as a misunderstanding, and why. It would be even better if these cases were reviewed by a mixed group of male, female, and/or non-binary staff.

tl;dr things are less blatantly sexist, but we can still improve. Communication and validation are important.

[Dune Bunny]

I tend to file player complaints when I see something that I feel is against the documentation for sexism. Never too accusatory, but a "X said my pc should do the dishes, because that's what women do, right? I feel that might be against the norms of Zalanthas and if so, maybe the player can be made aware?" - sort of request.

Staff won't discuss the resolution of such requests with the filing party, but I can say for certain that in multiple cases of this, I've seen actual positive changes from the player I filed against in their role-play and their immersion  of the documented world.

Perhaps I've been lucky in seeing this, as some people might take such a complaint the wrong way and retaliate in an immature manner, but it's been nice to see in my experience.

So definitely report it, even if it's a thing we gloss over easily IRL, such as, 'You hit like a woman!'. Staff seem to be more than happy these days, in my experience, to help players understand why such statements don't fit the documentation.

On top of that, some of the players that make these out-of-documentation sexist statements might honestly not be considering that what they're saying is actually sexist. A complaint request where staff can speak to said player might be a nice eye-opener for said player, and foster them being part of a better atmosphere going forward.

I've never had staff respond to me on a report to tell me that I shouldn't have made it, or that it was an inappropriate complaint. It has been pure encouragement from what I've seen, so as someone that has had a pretty positive experience with it, I encourage any of you to do the same when you witness such in game. Provide a brief log of the interaction, and your feelings as to why you feel it to be sexist, and staff will go from there. 

Just my 2 'sids.  <3

[Dar]

That's been my experience in my player complaints as well. I would file and get a ,"will look into this". That is really enough. I imagine often enough the staff won't even mention that it was a player complaint and go something like, "It's been noticed by us that you've blah blah blah" the player won't even know this was brought upon by a complaint. They'd just assume a staffer was watching and made a note about it. Often enough that too also happens.

[Fenneko]

Because I was personally involved in Bebop's sixteen year old Bynner whipping: the justification that bloody barbed whipping was OK even without getting consent that I recall hearing from staff at the time was that it was not necessary to get consent for the whipping due to whipping being "just a coded action," not an emoted action. Reasoning being you don't need consent to type "kill" so the same is true of whips. At least, that is what I recall staff saying back then about it. (trust me, my character was immediately involved with the whole thing at the time so I recall this clearly). 

Such reasoning seemed very flimsy to me, given that the coded actions certainly give a lot of visceral detail as is when used with a whip. As it states in the rules, if a character doesn't consent to torture you skip the scene, fade it, don't give details, but can still roleplay consequences of it. if there is some kind of coded penalty you want to give, fade the entire scene and ask staff to enact the coded consequences if any on the target and return to the scene after such an action took place and don't do any emotes to detail it. (or, think of another IC action besides whip torture, on the part of the whip bearer, if the victim did not give consent, always an option too).

In my opinion player complaints raised by Bebop at that time were valid and some kind of disciplinary action should have happened. But they weren't, and in this case the reasoning seems to be that there was a sharp power difference between runner and Byn Sergeant (and all those involved who determined her character deserved the whipping). I can't help but think that the power differential had something to do with it.

[Halaster]

Locking this thread.

Staff policy is that we do not comment or give out details about specific incidents for many reasons, most of which are around the protection of players and their privacy.. This conversation has delved into discussing individual topics that when only viewed from one side gives a biased view of certain people who are unable to respond to defend themselves.  It seems unfair to let it continue.