Words and perceptions and usage

[ShaiHulud]

Seeing some posts lately about old necker use and now cunt and other words..when is it enough? How much do we want to follow current rl trends of appropriations? When will it end? Can I say dick, bitch, cunt, whore anymore? How far is the rl safety, politically proper talk gonna go? I hope that we all are aware of things in rl, but to enforce every measure in this game..is something I don't want to see. Arm becoming disney pg is what some maybe want. I don't. This is an adult game, and adults know how to deal and handle this without crying some real life association.
If this is the direction of the game...to limit expression for safety of a few..let me know now.
I digress, you discuss.

[Brytta Léofa]

I like playing with you, man.

I think this is an issue that's really hard to discuss right now.

Broadly speaking I trust the staff to issue reasonable (maybe not perfect but also not catastrophically terrible) guidelines on this.

[Khorm]

armageddon explores things like racism and slavery and rape.

i do not believe the game could continue to function without an evolving response to what is or is not culturally appropriate. people just flat out would not play the game. people wouldn't staff the game. it would turn from a heavily niche experience to a near impossibly niche experience and it would just die.

these thematic elements still exist even if you cant use the world necker. they are ideas that continue to be central to the identity of the game and whether or not someone uses cunt pejoratively doesn't change that.

i do not buy the argument that changing these things makes it more soft or pg or whatever else threatens the experience of the game. nothing is lost if tomorrow someone will have to think up something other than cunt to insult you. you potentially gain a more engaged player or players who do not feel like they're playing with people who are stuck in an outdated mental space.

[Pariah]

I am unabashedly on the side of no censorship.

But be that as it may, I described why and debated this point in another thread and it was cut out and pruned.

I'm honestly not sure if we are allowed to talk about things that upset people if you don't agree with them.  And that makes me sad.

[Inks]

I am very pro cunt, as I play my rinthis like English chavs or ocker Australians in speech style (which is pretty much lore it has been going on so long, and amazing).

That being said I can understand the point of Delerium.

Necker was stupid anyway, and was always being used like nigger as time went on, and I always prefer sharps anyway. Gyppo absolutely had to go too, any real life racial stuff can get fucked.

But these are both on the same announcement, so I am open to clarification for sure. Among the top 30 swears in English, about 28 are references to private parts.

So I am pro cock, cockhead and cunt. If it is changed I am not about to start torching the place, but I feel limiting rp in this way does more harm than good overall, in terms of realism and flow.

Cunt is a pretty common word here between mates. "Ow ya going cunt?!" Is not uncommon to be shouted across the street to a male friend. Really only Boomers and up are even offended by it here.

Imms should clarify, and Delerium has every right to bring it up unless there is a later post retracting it, or clarifying.

[Maso]

*sigh*

I'm also on the side of no censorship. I think it just hinders creative expression and that is really what this game is all about. Vulgar and obscene characters are part of that. When words like cunt, twat, cock and dick become banned from all forms of creative media (e.g. books.. and films etc) then sure, we should probably follow suit.. At this juncture, I think it's a bit overboard.

We are also a multi-cultural game, the idea of a word like 'cunt' being a gendered insult is, as far as I can tell, broadly an American thing. These words, while they may have double meaning, are so far culturally and etymologically removed now from being gendered that I find it impossible to even try and be insulted by them in that sense. I also take full credit for inventing the word 'twat' when I was five.. while I was trying to look for something LESS offensive than "prat" or "twit" and put the two together. Whoops.

At this point I would consider any of the above swear words to be homonyms rather than gendered insults. Again, maybe cultural, but I don't think I've ever actually called a woman a cunt.

Anyway, from Wiki:

Cunt (/kʌnt/) is a vulgar word for the vulva or vagina and is also used in a variety of other ways, including as a term of disparagement. Reflecting national variations, cunt can be used as a disparaging and obscene term for a woman in the United States, an unpleasant or stupid man or woman in the United Kingdom, or a contemptible man in Australia and New Zealand.[1][2][3] However, in Australia and New Zealand it can also be a neutral or positive term when used with a positive qualifier (e.g., "He's a good cunt").[4][5] The term has various derivative senses, including adjective and verb uses.

Feminist writer and English professor Germaine Greer argues that cunt "is one of the few remaining words in the English language with a genuine power to shock"

Mostly the last line is what I found most poignant. We shouldn't be so quick and blasé about limiting our vocabulary. Removing cunt would be, per Germaine Greer, removing one of the few remaining words with the genuine power to shock.. and well.. our creativity needs that option. Whether it is a well-spoken character at the very fucking obscene end of their tether or it is the day to day language of an extremely vulgar character.


Edited for typos, I'm still pre-coffee.

[hyzhenhok]

Just to shortly make the point I made in the other thread -- a lot of words and phrases have multiple meanings. As Maso points out, the usage of "cunt" even IRL is not a monolith, it's not always negative, and it's not always an insult that operates by implying simply being a woman is bad or contemptible. It absolutely can be the latter way IRL, but it's not the only way the word is used and interpreted.

In Zalanthas, we should be able to use words such as these with the assumption that, because there is no sexism in Zalanthas, such words will never be meant or interpreted ICly in a way that infers sexist intent or a sexist insult. So if I see the c-word, I know that what is meant cannot be "insult suggesting being a woman is bad" and is instead "insult suggesting person is annoying, stupid, or stubborn" or "non-insulting but vulgar term meaning 'person.'"

If a player's conduct suggests otherwise, they can be dealt with accordingly. But just using the word itself shouldn't be enough.

[tiny rainbow]

I really don't like that after Delerium wrote really well thought out replies on the other thread, and they got wiped as well as insulting stuff to be fair, and then it's the same again...

For every person willing to argue on a forum about something, there's maybe nine others that are going to look at it and think "I'm not going to get involved..." (I remember a very popular online game did a study on the actual % of people actually used forums) but DO get turned off visiting a place after they get called sexist crap...
And it stands out a lot more because the background story of the world specifically says that there's uncontroversial equality, so it just seems more obnoxious when people let gross stuff from RL seep in that many people are already sick of seeing.

In both Australia and the UK it is NOT used by most people, and the way it is used as an insult IS 100% misogynistic and it means exactly the same female body parts and condensed hundreds of years of hate... There is no getting away from that, and that's why it doesn't fit with Zalanthas... REGARDLESS of all the political arguing, it's just against the actual setting to be using gendered insults...

[Maso]

In both Australia and the UK it is NOT used by most people, and the way it is used as an insult IS 100% misogynistic.

I'm sorry. But honestly, I think this statement is simply not true. It may have been misogynistic in the 13th Century... but 900 years later it has evolved somewhat. It just happens to be a homonym.

When a person in the UK says, "You're such a fucking cunt." - they mean.. from their heart "I'm really fucking angry at you right now and you're being an awful horrible person." they do not mean "You're being such a despicable, disgusting woman." When an Aus person says, "Shit, that guy was such funny cunt." (we also do this in the UK tbh) they mean "That person was really funny" they do not mean "That dude was such a funny awful, despicable woman."

It just.. doesn't track.

It is, however, EXTREMELY rare... for the words 'cunt' or 'twat' to be actually be used (in the UK) in reference to a woman's body parts. That only really comes into play if someone is actually trying to be really super filthy, dirty.

Honestly, I barely barely ever use these words at all RL, but they may come out in extreme circumstances, and I'm not sure I have ever used them IG (because my characters are all sweetness and rainbows.. obviously).. but I just can't not defend the freedom to use the full breadth of language within a creative environment.

[valeria]

I find the current prevalence of people in the game calling other people cunts jarring, not because I get insulted by these words on an OOC level or because I think nobody should be allowed to say "dick" in game, but because the context of the way these words are currently being used is not consistent with the setting.

It's inappropriate to call someone in game a pussy, because it doesn't make sense with the game's theme.  Women are just as capable as men.  It's inappropriate to call someone a faggot, because homosexuality is not taboo or viewed as some moral vice.

But lately, I've been seeing this forumlation a lot as an insult: "Quit being such a cunt." or "You're such a cunt."  Or simply just, "Cunt," said in an angry and insulting situation.  I haven't seen cunt used in some positive fashion, like someone joking with a friend that they're a cunt.  I haven't seen this formulation used with the word "cock" instead.

If "quit being such a pussy" isn't setting appropriate, why is "quit being such a cunt?" 

It's jarring to me in the same way that someone saying "I was gone fishing" instead of "I was krathstruck" is jarring, or the way someone saying "I could really use a sandwich" is jarring.  Not because of the RL nature or the word cunt or because someone might be offended behind the keyboard, but because the way people are currently using it doesn't make sense as an insult within the setting.

[Inks]

It is used in so many ways here, much less so in the upper middle and higher classes, sure. Almost always whether endearment (more common than an insult from my experience) or a challenging insult, it IS directed at other males, sure. Whatever the etymology of the word the way it is used by men here is so far detatched from denigrating an actual vagina.

Personally, if Imms could clarify current policy it would help get the aggressive vitriol that everyone seems to be moving towards under control.

Anyone who is denigrating Delerium for talking about something she feels very strongly about doesn't care about free speech at all.

Again, I remember ignoring the cunt/cock bans when Nergal made this sudden announcement with no follow up all those years ago, but knowing that the no real world racial language stuff was not on. I have seen plenty of animations even back then that continued to use it. In my ideal world these swear words will be clarified by Imms as being fine to use.

Peace guys. Don't attack each other just debate your point. Cheers m8.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I've used cunt one of two ways in the game. 1. to insult a person, and 2. during erotic scenes, after the other person used it. I've used cock in precisely the same way, though when I use it during erotic scenes, I don't wait for the other person to do it.

I've always assumed that cunt is worse than cock in terms of how players could perceive it, but I've never thought it to be a mysoginistic tool, in the game. I'm aware that I am a male, and possibly simply don't understand, yet, there are females in this thread who also don't really think of it in the mysoginistic manner.

But.

Despite the idea that it's just a word, and despite my desire to not see the use retarded, and despite my hatred of censorship, more important to me is that my players, who I crave and want to play with, who I have spent 20+ years with, can find some comfort here in the midst of our MCB. Like Triste says, maybe it's really just about us collectively, and maybe we'll just be alright if it goes away. Maybe that is the greater good that keeps us all killing one another out in the sands.

SO, I propose that rather than simple censorship, we just look for new lingo, and we use it, and maybe cunt dies it's own natural death. I honestly think it's not such a bad idea to find setting appropriate material for "cursing". A lot of people willingly gave up karma a few years back to encourage the idea of mundane-ness. Can we willingly create setting appropriate cursing?

I think we can. I think we can do it without censorship, frankly, if we want to. I will work towards it, because Delirium's (and others') feelings are more important than my desire to use an insult is.

Also - we really suffer when we struggle to communicate in good faith. Mind the personal attacks when we discuss things. I hate seeing discussions ruined by barbs and jabs. You don't have to agree with someone to be relatively civil. And we're grown, so ...

... We can do that too.

[mansa]

I find insults like cuck and faggot to have no place in this community.

Other banned words should be a squaw, a kike, a tranny, and more.

Players should be able to play our game and interact with our community without having to be ashamed/threatened by others within the playerbase.

[WarriorPoet]

I am keen for a free for all as far as curses insults go. BUT, if me avoiding cunt and necker make others feel more comfortable, it is the smallest of sacrifices.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I find insults like cuck and faggot to have no place in this community.

Other banned words should be a squaw, a kike, a tranny, and more.

Players should be able to play our game and interact with our community without having to be ashamed/threatened by others within the playerbase.

I've never heard of squaw being offensive, but ... now that I read up on it, hmmm. I've also never seen it used in the game, nor have I seen the others mentioned here.

[Riev]

I am keen for a free for all as far as curses insults go. BUT, if me avoiding cunt and necker make others feel more comfortable, it is the smallest of sacrifices.

[Pariah]

It's such a slippery slope right.

Say we ban cunt because it could be referred to as a weakness of female blah blah.

What about when I see someone in pain in game and decide to call him a sissy.  Is that now some horrible thing because people could use it to describe gay folks?

Context is a thing right. How about we stop trying to neuter language and assume positive intent till proven otherwise then just player complaint if need be?

I've known English people who use cunt as a noun, verb and adjective.  It's the same way as saying that "That's gay." It's being used as a pejorative for bad.  Does that mean that saying that in that sentence means, I hate gay people or down with gay people! Absolutely not.

Stop trying to police others use of words please.

[Pariah]

I don't think I've ever used the word, in game, so as Triste and others are saying it probably won't be gamebreaking if it does hit the list of "banned words".

It just feels super silly to me to limit profanity.  I've always personally hated the people who play every character like they got shit in their mouth. "Oy ya fuckwit, whot ya thunk doin my ead in." But I don't make posts trying to get their horrible made up accents pulled from the game, I just try my best to decipher it and roll my eyes ooc.

Being offended is alright and part of life.  People offend me every day, don't need to start a crusade to stop all things offensive because of it.

[Halaster]

This is a good discussion.  As long as we keep it civilized I think it's worthwhile to have.

My person, NON-STAFF view, is that we're limited by the English language as that's the primary language of the game.  I think that if someone calls me a cunt in game they're using that word (as you do with all curse words) for emphasis or to make a point.  To spice up their language for effect.  Ideally if everyone were perfect role-players they could use the word tregil or something like that instead and it would have the same affect on me.  But me as a player, I don't view the word "tregil" as impactful as "cunt".  So when the other person uses "cunt" it grabs my attention more than "tregil".  Now if I were a perfect RP'er, I'd pick up on the emotional impact of "tregil".  But I'm not, and I don't.

What's my point?  This is a good opportunity for character development.  Decide "ok, these Armageddon words are really triggers for my character.  If someone calls my Amos a tregil, I'm going to have him go bonkers". Or ,"when someone mentions 'cock', my character will go into a fit of laughter".

At least, that's what I'm personally going to take from all this - another idea I can think of to further develop my characters.

[Ender]

So I have been thinking about this issue a lot and I think there is a clear disconnect.  No one is asking for a blanket ban against these words as far as I can tell.  What we are asking for is a reaffirmation of this rule:

stop using sexist insults framed against people (e.g. bitch, dick, cunt).

I am not saying we should ban words, I am saying we should ban the use of specifically targeted sexist insults.  "Oy cunt give me that wrench."  perfectly fine, "I won't listen to you because you're just a cunt." said to a female leader: sexist and not theme appropriate.

I recently saw the latter usage of that sort of insult absolutely framed against a female leader PC by a male leader PC to denigrate her, and I didn't put in a player complaint because I was a 3rd party to it, but maybe I should have.

Currently there is a lot of concern about censorship in Armageddon, but the reality is we censor anything that is not theme appropriate or anachronistic already.  And one theme of armageddon is there is no sexual discrimination in game, and such the language used by the characters in this world needs to reflect that. 

[Pariah]

Another suggestion I would give if something is really upsetting you in game is possibly throwing out an ooc please don't say x, it is hurting my feelings.

I see folks ooc misspelled words or misdirected emotes.

I would not purposely keep calling you a cunt if you OOC'd me about it.  Not because I think it's not warranted to call you one icly.  But because oocly I try not to be an asshole if I can help it.

I feel that the banning of a word is a mechanism for tattling on your fellow player base.  Oohhh pariah said cunt, wish all Pariah said CUNT, get him!

We are all better than that.  And in response for the using it to describe a woman only, well that sounds like a player complaint and not a world altering ban conversation.

[Ender]

If we just have a blanket ban on cunt without targeting the ACTUAL problem (roleplayed misogyny), some player who actually is misogynist or playing a setting defying misogynistic character might start saying to females, "I don't listen to fat, stupid chaltons like you," or "Why don't you go off to a pen you breeding sow." None of these phrases use banned words, but smack of misogyny. TLDR a ban of the word cunt would accomplish nothing (besides harming the playerbase as a whole by applying an arbitrary limitation).

As per Nergal's rule, your examples would already be against the rules.  It's a ban specifically on gendered insults, not a word ban.  Those are two very separate things and seems to be the core of the misunderstanding between both sides arguing right now.

I think almost everyone can agree that targeted misogynistic insults should remain banned.

This whole argument has been brought up because of seeing an uptick in a lot of players using targeted gendered insults, enough that maybe it was time to reaffirm that these sorts of insults are not setting appropriate and let them self correct rather than going through the bureaucracy of putting in multiple player complaints.

[tiny rainbow]

The word means the same thing in the UK and Australia, it's just a reflection of how many hundreds of years this kind of thing has been going on, and that a VERY SMALL amount of people are accepting of it now. It's not normal... It means disgusting BECAUSE it means "something disgusting", because it's from the mindset that female genitalia is disgusting, that's literally the whole meaning and everyone knows it and uses it to mean both things, especially when it comes to sex stuff.

That a VERY SMALL amount of people tolerate it being used as an insult is just a nasty reminder of for how many literally centuries women were treated as property with no votes until the last 100 years...  It's NOT commonly used by MOST people in UK or Australia and it just make no sense that it'd catch on in Zalanthas without that kind of history...

[Bebop]

I feel like there's a lot of commentary here from the male persuasion that doesn't know what it's like irl to be disparaged and undermined daily due to your gender.  It's not something I want to experience IG.

It stands to reason that since we live in a sexist world it makes roleplaying characters that are not sexist intrinsically difficult on all of our parts —- if not impossible.

However, using a woman's genitalia to demean her in the context Ender mentioned is arguably sexist which is against documentation.

There's a million different ways you can insult someone without giving an inkling of sexism.  It's not hard.

I have had powerful, warrior women in full armor have their rivalries described as "quirri fights" and seen many techniques designed to minimize and undermine women in real life used subtly in game.  It's never going to be perfect.  But it can be better and discussions like this are relevant and necessary to ensure that people can play women characters without being undermined on the basis of their character's gender.

At the end of the day Armageddon has always been rated R but women being equal in the world is also an intrinsic part of its composition.  We can have both.  If you think we can't you aren't arguing for a grittier Armageddon you're taking a stance in your ability to be casually sexist.

Right now a lot of you are discussing how to regain and retain players.  It stands to reason that making the game less sexist is one such way to succeed to that end.  If all you have to do is call someone a fucking boot heel instead of genitalia... seems like an easy choice.  Or we could just complain about censorship I guess.

[mansa]

Now, tell your story on how censorship helps player retention, please?

I don't want rape back in the game.