Words and perceptions and usage

[Cabooze]

somehow magical doublepost after/during editing. Must of misclicked quote. Woops.

Regardless, I think language use should be as free form as possible without restricting players too much in how they are able to portray their characters. Certain words should remain banned as they make direct correlations with IRL, but ones that point at the genitals and share similar definitions shouldn't be taken so seriously.

[hyzhenhok]

One thing I find interesting is that somehow there is a presumption on the part of some people that cunt is a word that can be used.  The "of course its okay!" attitude.

And yet, at least my perception, is that presumption does not extend to, lets say, holmes or ese, which I at least hear much more frequently in real life than the word cunt.

Which kind of infers that everyone actually is ok with limiting which words are used, on some level.  That there is just something in some people's heads that triggers a "but I should be able to use this word" response, for whatever reason.  Which is on you.

It's not that surprising. Vulgar labels to declare that the speaker dislikes someone or thinks that they are a jerk are very common type of cursing, and are culturally universal. "Holmes" is not like that. Surely there are curse words that are used like c/b/d in sirihish and allundean and bendune, though they might not be gendered.

The problem here is in English, almost all of the relevant vulgar terms are gendered--even "asshole" is gendered male to my ear. So to translate such insults from sirihish, we have to use the gendered terms or just not use equivalently shocking insults at all. Arm-specific stuff like "tregil face" aren't real replacements; they're more comical than shocking.

Giving up the shock and literary (yes, literary) value of true curse words isn't nothing. I'm not saying it's a huge loss--like I said above, I'd be fine if they are officially banned to accommodate players that find them jarring or always sexist and/or in recognition that they are often used IG by players who are violating the no-sexism rule. But we can make that change without impugning the motives of people who disagree and without misrepresenting linguistic reality.

[Brokkr]

If you are trying to shock the player behind the character, rather than their character, maybe you are doing it wrong.

[Delirium]

If you are trying to shock the player behind the character, rather than their character, maybe you are doing it wrong.

Exactly.

In response to cabooze/Hyz, rather than try to explain it in another way in hopes of being understood, I will repeat myself:

In short, we're trying to tell collaborative stories while reflecting a despotic, grimdark world where men and women are equally powerful, and it is entirely possible to add flavor to your dialogue and emotes without breaking immersion with terms that are loaded with RL connotations that do not fit the stated theme of the game.

[hyzhenhok]

If you are trying to shock the player behind the character, rather than their character, maybe you are doing it wrong.

Why is the game translated into English if we're trying to communicate with characters and not the player behind them? Serious eyeroll.

Do you have a list of sirihish words that are ICly as shocking and insulting as RL curse words that we can use instead?

I'm all for having Zalanthan versions of n'wah, s'wit and fetcher. Until we have something like that, I'm not sure how you communicate "my character is being vulgar and insulting." "'Tok brain" does not do it.

[Delirium]

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,57044.0.html

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,54997.0.html

[hyzhenhok]

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,57044.0.html

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,54997.0.html

Doesn't really help because there's no anchoring point to help players get on the same page as to how characters would perceive those insults. I see a bunch of immature playground insults and my characters will probably react similarly ICly.

So it might be helpful to have "official" swear words that are officially really, really offensive, so that option is on the table for players without resorting to IRL equivalents.

[Cabooze]

Doesn't really help because there's no anchoring point to help players get on the same page as to how characters would perceive those insults. I see a bunch of immature playground insults and my characters will probably react similarly ICly.

So it might be helpful to have "official" swear words that are officially really, really offensive, so that option is on the table for players without resorting to IRL equivalents.

Filthy Breeder, Elf lover, Mul fondler. I think those could be some good official additions.

[Bebop]

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,57044.0.html

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,54997.0.html

Doesn't really help because there's no anchoring point to help players get on the same page as to how characters would perceive those insults. I see a bunch of immature playground insults and my characters will probably react similarly ICly.

So it might be helpful to have "official" swear words that are officially really, really offensive, so that option is on the table for players without resorting to IRL equivalents.

So because you can't use one term you now need a list of every existing term out of the millions of combinations that you could use (even though someone just provided you a list.). That's the line of logic you're going with.

So if you can't commit murder you now need a list of every law and regulation in the entire world that you will somehow commit to memory to make sure you don't commit murder.

[Pariah]

I'm totally okay with you saying crazy made up swears.  I love when folks who aren't native speakers of English get mad and say shit like "You dirty mother asshole!" Or some flavor of that. It's entertaining in a "look at him trying" type way.

So is it cool to encourage use of world specific language in my opinion, but I don't think we should be limiting of any language.  Censorship if never good.

Also we can disagree with one another without alluding to we would be okay with RL murder because we aren't bothered by typed words.  Come on now.

[Bebop]

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,57044.0.html

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,54997.0.html

Doesn't really help because there's no anchoring point to help players get on the same page as to how characters would perceive those insults. I see a bunch of immature playground insults and my characters will probably react similarly ICly.

So it might be helpful to have "official" swear words that are officially really, really offensive, so that option is on the table for players without resorting to IRL equivalents.

So because you can't use one term you now need a list of every existing term out of the millions of combinations (even though someone just provided you a list.). That's the line of logic you're going with.

So if you can't commit murder you now need a list of every law and regulation in the entire world that you will somehow commit to memory to make sure you don't commit murder.

Yeah, I'm done, since clearly no one is actually reading what I write. Make someone else your strawman.

I mean it's hard to take this as a real question because it's contextual.  If you call your girlfriend a cunt or bitch IRL it's incredibly demeaning towards women and could spell the end of your relationship.

This kind of thing wouldn't be used in Zalanthas because it would not occur to anyone to insult someone on the basis of sex as genders are equal socially and physically in this world.

Call a human an elf.  Call a southern Lord a Chosen Lord.  Call a Templar by their name without title.  Tell a pristine aide they look like a shit cloak.  Tell a tactical Sergeant they think like a rinth rat and are as craven as one too.  That's just off the top of my head as far as grave contextual insults that could get you outright killed.

All anyone is asking is that documentation be respected and you do not discriminate or insult characters in game on the basis of sex as it is not thematic and against the rules.

You're a long term player so I'm sure you can come up with your own contextual insults that don't require gender.  Saying the staff need to spell this out in documentation came off as disingenuous too me, though perhaps it wasn't meant to be.  By simply not disrespecting and dying to every Templar in your path you show you're capable of understanding grave contextual insults without the staff needing to specify.

[SilkyBoi]

You are still allowed to acknowledge the templar you are not trying to piss off's gender. You have to with Lady Templar or Lord Templar.

For me it's like dick is acknowledging you are a male asshole or cunt is female asshole.

The only time I personally get annoyed is when they say something like Don't  be a pussy, because that does imply inferiority.

I tend to just use asshole.

[Hauwke]

I really don't like that after Delerium wrote really well thought out replies on the other thread, and they got wiped as well as insulting stuff to be fair, and then it's the same again...

For every person willing to argue on a forum about something, there's maybe nine others that are going to look at it and think "I'm not going to get involved..." (I remember a very popular online game did a study on the actual % of people actually used forums) but DO get turned off visiting a place after they get called sexist crap...
And it stands out a lot more because the background story of the world specifically says that there's uncontroversial equality, so it just seems more obnoxious when people let gross stuff from RL seep in that many people are already sick of seeing.

In both Australia and the UK it is NOT used by most people, and the way it is used as an insult IS 100% misogynistic and it means exactly the same female body parts and condensed hundreds of years of hate... There is no getting away from that, and that's why it doesn't fit with Zalanthas... REGARDLESS of all the political arguing, it's just against the actual setting to be using gendered insults...

Like to point out as an Australian, I've never heard or seen cunt used in a mysonginistic way here, (ymmv though) In fact, 90% of the time I've seen it used it's been used in a friendly way.

[Gentleboy]

I played a very dismissive female character once and she was PK'd and the reason I was told by the other PC was for "being such a cunt" and then he killed me. That felt horrible. It felt like I was being killed for being an 'uppity' woman who didn't comply and then being called a cunt? That made me really sick.

That use of it was not fun or cool or supported by the docs.

[Brytta Léofa]

One reason that it's hard to have this discussion is that we all live in slightly different worlds.

And yet, at least my perception, is that presumption does not extend to, lets say, holmes or ese, which I at least hear much more frequently in real life than the word cunt.

Meanwhile I'm over here having no idea that "holmes" and "ese" are English (or English-adjacent?) words.

I played a very dismissive female character once and she was PK'd and the reason I was told by the other PC was for "being such a cunt" and then he killed me. That felt horrible. It felt like I was being killed for being an 'uppity' woman who didn't comply and then being called a cunt? That made me really sick.

In your position I probably would have assumed the gendered insult was simply picked to match my character's gender, i.e. exactly analogous to being killed "for being such a dick." I'm not criticizing your reaction--it's easy for me to be oblivious to this stuff because, for one, I've never had it directed at me IRL.

[Brokkr]

ese is a Spanish origin word, but used in both Spanish or English.

holmes was the last name of a boxer in the 80s and isn't limited to hispanic communities, but at times very prevalent there.

Both are very California.

[Krath]

I do not think the words Cunt, dick, cock, or pussy are in the same category as the Ni, Fa, Gy, and such words at all.

Two completely different spectrums. I do not think word that describe body parts, no matter how crude, should be removed from use.

[Dar]

One thing I find interesting is that somehow there is a presumption on the part of some people that cunt is a word that can be used.  The "of course its okay!" attitude.

And yet, at least my perception, is that presumption does not extend to, lets say, holmes or ese, which I at least hear much more frequently in real life than the word cunt.

Which kind of infers that everyone actually is ok with limiting which words are used, on some level.  That there is just something in some people's heads that triggers a "but I should be able to use this word" response, for whatever reason.  Which is on you.


ese is a Spanish origin word, but used in both Spanish or English  American.

holmes was the last name of a boxer in the 80s and isn't limited to hispanic communities, but at times very prevalent there.

Both are very California.

I suspect this is due to a generous amount of books and movies that depict rough and harsh characters who use the word 'cunt' a lot. Most of those stories are not of modern times. Deadwood, pirate movies, various iterations of Dickens, etc.      Ese and Holmes are words that are a lot more modern and are avoided due to being anachronistic.



If anyone remembers Kozh. The gangly, close-cropped youth. A Troll character that played in the Byn and heckled 'everything'. He was once nearly killed by a Bynner for being a 'cunt'.


http://www.thepopcornmuncher.com/2017/07/29/11-best-c-word-in-movies/

Ironic that majority of these movies are not American. And near predominantly the word cunt was used towards a male person.

[Dar]

It's funny actually. Awhile back, the situation called for me to use the word Water Fat. As in, a person who drinks a lot of water and is therefore soft, lazy, and wouldn't survive in the desert. And I stared at the typed out sentence wondering. Because I wouldn't use the word 'fat' as a pejorative. But water fat fits the theme so well.

I ended up not using it.


Found the character whom I wanted to use it on dead within the same rl day out in the wilds.

[Inks]

Yeah I think most of us have our own careful considerations we don't use. Bitch and tok-bitch are ones I never use due to using female as a negative. I saw a pc calling mine a cocksucker a while back which felt jarring as there is no sexual prejudice in Zalanthas, and the guy was just clearly calling my PC "a fag" which makes zero sense as an insult. But to call someone genitals is so ingrained in our language, it seems natural in Zalanthas for me.

Especially since nudity is still largely taboo in civilised areas. I wouldn't even consider using it on my tribals due to a massive difference in culture, traditions and taboos than city trash, and I can't recall tribals ever using it in front of me, other than ones who had been career Bynners and corrupted deeply by their merc lifestyle.

If open genital nudity was completely non taboo in the documentation, then these insults would make no sense in game.

Taken from documentaion:
"Allanak is a rigidly traditional society, and this has affected the city's trends in fashion throughout the years. For example, the modesty of one's attire is considered before comfort, despite the high temperatures citizens must deal with daily. "

And Tuluk:
"Though, as a rule, the clothes are not as austere as their southern counterparts, the higher social circles see a greater degree of conservatism. Even the most risque (noble or otherwise) would not run bare bottomed through the streets. A knee-length skirt is more likely to be worn with a short-sleeved shirt than a corset."


It is these Zalanthan taboos which cause these insults to be completely in line with documentation when referring to genitals as insults. The stuff about "free speech" is completely missing the mark. This is about being in line and being realistic when in the world we create together.

I am very grateful to anyone who read this the whole way through, thank you.

[oggotale]

Can I say dick, bitch, cunt, whore anymore?

Unironically - nope you shouldn't (although whore can be gender-neutral, so yes that's fine)

I use these words frequently IRL and couldn't give less of a f about it being gendered insults.

Buuut... Lore-wise, arm is some kind of a gender-neutral society, so gendered insults make absolutely no sense in game.
Saying "cunt" as an insult is almost as unrealistic as saying "god damn" or "what the hell".

Of course some amount of "that's not realistic" has to be tolerated though, because we all find it comfortable to entertain some of it in our play.

[Inks]

Did you read my post above? These insults are in context because they reference the genitals, a taboo subject in Zalanthas (which is also the reason they are swear words in real life). It has nothing to do with sexism why these are still relevant.

Except for bitch which makes no sense. Sorry about the length.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I don't think I ever use bitch. I think I have before, but to be honest, calling someone a rabid gortok that happens to be female (but is crazy because they are protecting their litter), which is the only reason bitch would be a thing in Zalanthas, doesn't really strike me as totally out of place.

But I like to avoid that word entirely, because it does reference a female entity specifically.

Calling a woman a vulgar female part, or a male a vulgar male part, honestly seems perfectly fine to me, even in the setting. Calling the opposite sex the opposing slur does seem pretty stupid though, and I think I have been guilty of doing that in the past, because it never occurred to me what that implied.

I'm game to shave modern lingo from my IG vocab, but I'm liable to sling some setting appropriate slurs in instead. So I might bellow, "You stupid sandslit (dry pussy)" at a female, or "You moronic gith-rod (smelly, mutated dick)" at a male.

I honestly think that neither of these would trigger the sexism or setting-inappropriate flags. I'll be aiming them at the gender they belong to, on top of that.

But then again, I might abandon it all. I dunno.

[RavingTregils]

The word has no emotional meaning to me. It's not in the books I read, movies I watch, not in the daily slang of people I hang out with.
I wouldn't use it. It's like GD - when I hear/read that I just replace it with "uhm, uh" in my mind and soon realize that author/movie/show isn't worth my time. It's uncreative and boring.

That said, I have no desire to PK someone who is so wrapped up in their character that it would cause real pain.
I have no desire to type words that hurt you as a person.
Word bans make me second guess what I type and language changes fast, karens and incels. Could probably call someone Trump and trigger half the players.

I offer 2 suggestions:
1. Deal with it IC - imms - if someone was out emoting they are fucking their inix, wouldn't it be ok to have the inix kick them so hard they died? Really, they are so out of the norm that the pc doesn't belong in the world. Same with the sexist/racist name calling. Wouldn't all the tough females around laugh, get up, and proceed to kill the "idiot" pc? Just do it. They will learn.

2. Get rid of genders altogether. Have pairs go off and pick eggs from trees and spray it with their nuggies to procreate.

You can bleed your personal tragedies, phobias, biases into the game 2 ways: your writing AND your reading.

[Delirium]

a vulgar female part

a vulgar female part

jfc I'm done.

Some of you I believe are well intentioned and just genuinely don't get it but I give up.

I really just give up.

Have fun y'all.